2026年新晋诺贝尔和平奖得主，85岁女法官皮莱如何用半个世
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:01 | This is Legal Luminaries. | 这是法律界的荣誉 |
| 0:03 | Join us as we delve into the inspiring stories | 我们一起探索鼓舞人心的故事 |
| 0:06 | of some of the greatest legal minds | 一些伟大的法律思想 |
| 0:07 | to have shaped South Africa's democracy and law. | 已经形成了南非的民主和法律。 |
| 0:10 | I'm Iman Rapeti, your guide through the series. | 我是伊曼・拉斐蒂,你的导师 通过系列。 |
| 0:14 | Hello, and welcome once again to the special podcast series | 你好,再次欢迎来到特别播客系列 |
| 0:18 | Juta和Jacaranda调频台合作。 | |
| 0:22 | The Legal Luminaries is all about building a legacy | 法律界的光荣 都是为了建立遗产 |
| 0:24 | for future generations based on the experiences | 根据经验为子孙后代提供 |
| 0:28 | and contributions of South Africa's leading legal minds. | 以及南非主要法律思想的贡献。 |
展开字幕全文（994 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | This is Legal Luminaries. | 这是法律界的荣誉 |
| 2 | Join us as we delve into the inspiring stories | 我们一起探索鼓舞人心的故事 |
| 3 | of some of the greatest legal minds | 一些伟大的法律思想 |
| 4 | to have shaped South Africa's democracy and law. | 已经形成了南非的民主和法律。 |
| 5 | I'm Iman Rapeti, your guide through the series. | 我是伊曼・拉斐蒂,你的导师 通过系列。 |
| 6 | Hello, and welcome once again to the special podcast series | 你好,再次欢迎来到特别播客系列 |
| 7 | Juta和Jacaranda调频台合作。 | |
| 8 | The Legal Luminaries is all about building a legacy | 法律界的光荣 都是为了建立遗产 |
| 9 | for future generations based on the experiences | 根据经验为子孙后代提供 |
| 10 | and contributions of South Africa's leading legal minds. | 以及南非主要法律思想的贡献。 |
| 11 | And it has been such a treat over the last while | 过去的一段时间 一直以来都是这样 |
| 12 | to go back to those who have defined | 以便你转回去见见已阐明真理的人们。 |
| 13 | the way law is conceived and the way that it is practiced, | 法律的构思和施行, |
| 14 | not only in our country, but also across the world. | 不仅在我国,而且在世界各地。 |
| 15 | And to this point, our special guest today | 此时此刻,我们的特邀嘉宾 |
| 16 | is Judge Navi Pillay, full name Navineetham Pillay, | 纳维·皮莱法官 全名纳维内塔姆·皮莱 |
| 17 | but we just call her Navi. | 但我们只是叫她纳维。 |
| 18 | And it's lovely to have her in our company today. | 她今天加入我们真好 |
| 19 | Judge Pillay has had over 60 years on the bench. | 皮莱法官担任法官已有60多年。 |
| 20 | So part of our task today is really just to lean back, | 所以我们今天的任务之一 就是要靠回去 |
| 21 | have a conversation, find out how it all began | 有话要说,看看是怎么开始的 |
| 22 | and what stands out in Judge Pillay's mind | 以及皮莱法官所想的 |
| 23 | as some of the most significant moments | 作为最重要的时刻 |
| 24 | in her illustrious career. | 她的杰出事业 |
| 25 | Judge, it is such a pleasure and a privilege | 法官,这真是荣幸和特权 |
| 26 | to have you with us today. | 今天你和我们在一起 |
| 27 | And in our audience are disparate people | 在我们的观众中 不同的人 |
| 28 | from across South African society | 南非社会 |
| 29 | and wherever this podcast reaches, | 无论播客到达哪里 |
| 30 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}谁真正想要的就是了解 | |
| 31 | to build a career such as yours | 来构建你这样的事业 |
| 32 | and what justice means, not only in the world, | 以及正义的意义, 不仅是在世界上, |
| 33 | but specifically in South Africa | 特别是在南非 |
| 34 | in a context of continuous change and chaos. | 在不断变革和混乱的背景下。 |
| 35 | So welcome to the program today. | 欢迎今天参加节目 |
| 36 | And I guess the first question is, | 我想第一个问题是, |
| 37 | how did you get your start as an international judge? | 你怎么开始做国际法官的? |
| 38 | Well, thank you, Iman, so much. | 谢谢你,伊曼,真的 |
| 39 | And Jutta Marketing for giving me this opportunity. | 还有朱塔市场给我这个机会 |
| 40 | I'm very pleased to join you | 我很高兴加入你们 |
| 41 | and I respect the judges whom you've already interviewed | 我尊重你已经采访过的法官 |
| 42 | as colleagues. | 作为同事。 |
| 43 | You know, it's 60 years in the legal profession, | 你知道,这是60年 在法律专业, |
| 44 | I would say, not 60 years as a judge. | 我想说,作为法官不是60年。 |
| 45 | Yeah, so when I was little in primary school, | 是啊,所以当我小 在小学, |
| 46 | then the teacher asked us, | 然后老师问我们 |
| 47 | what would you like to do when you grow up? | 你长大后想做什么? |
| 48 | And I said, lawyer. | 我说,律师。 |
| 49 | And he said, oh, so your father must have a lot of money | 他说,哦,所以你父亲一定有很多钱 |
| 50 | because it costs a lot of money to go to university. | 因为上大学要花很多钱 |
| 51 | I was so crushed, but it didn't crush my spirit in going on. | 我被粉碎了,但它没有粉碎 我的精神继续。 |
| 52 | So I got to university because my poor community | 所以我上大学是因为我可怜的社区 |
| 53 | in Clearwood collected funds and sent me to university. | 在克里伍德集资送我上大学 |
| 54 | And this is why we say, you know, a child, | 这就是为什么我们说, 你知道,一个孩子, |
| 55 | every community should also take care of its children. | 每个社区也应照顾其儿童。 |
| 56 | So I had these wonderful opportunities, | 所以我有了这些美妙的机会, |
| 57 | but my basic message to students, young people, | 但我对学生、年轻人的基本信息 |
| 58 | all over the world is that you don't know how far you can go, | 全世界都是你不知道你能走多远 |
| 59 | but you can lay the ground now. | 但你现在可以铺平了 |
| 60 | You have to study and work very hard. | 你必须学习和工作非常努力。 |
| 61 | And that's what I've done throughout my career. | 亦复如是事业中所作. |
| 62 | I was a legal attorney for anti-apartheid activists, | 我是反种族隔离活动家的法律顾问 |
| 63 | the ANC Unity Movement, for 30 years, close to 30 years. | ANC团结运动, 30年,接近30年。 |
| 64 | So you need that level of experience to become a judge, | 所以你需要这种经验才能成为法官 |
| 65 | I would say, because you're really versed in the law. | 我会说,因为你真的很精通法律。 |
| 66 | I had finished the Hadi Gwala, | 我完成了哈迪格瓦拉号 |
| 67 | the ANC trial in Petersburg. | 在彼得堡的ANC审判。 |
| 68 | And I went to Robben Island to tell them | 我去罗本岛告诉他们 |
| 69 | that we lost the appeal. | 我们失去了呼吁。 |
| 70 | And they were comforting me instead of me, | 他们安慰我而不是我 |
| 71 | you know, because I was really, really disappointed | 你知道,因为我真的很,真的很失望 |
| 72 | because we had a good case. | 因为我们有个好案子 |
| 73 | And so Hadi Gwala said, don't blame yourself. | 所以哈迪·格瓦拉说 别怪你自己 |
| 74 | You must remember this is all a political fight, | 你必须记住,这是一场政治斗争, |
| 75 | even in the courts. | 甚至在法庭上。 |
| 76 | Why don't you take our court records, | 你为什么不把法庭记录拿来 |
| 77 | take it to the United States | 带去美国 |
| 78 | and see what other judges would say about the evidence. | 看看其他法官会怎么说证据 |
| 79 | So it was, I applied for a scholarship | 所以我申请了奖学金 |
| 80 | and that's why I got to Harvard. | 所以我才去哈佛大学 |
| 81 | I already had my two degrees, | 我已经有两度了 |
| 82 | the BA and LLB from Natal University. | 纳塔尔大学文学士和法学士。 |
| 83 | And at Harvard, I completed the master's in law | 在哈佛,我完成了法律硕士 |
| 84 | and the doctorate, doctorate in juridical science. | 并获法学博士学位。 |
| 85 | And at that time, my colleagues, other lawyers said, | 当时,我的同事和其他律师说, |
| 86 | why do you want all these degrees? | 你为什么想要这些学位? |
| 87 | It's not like you can charge more fees | 你又不是能多收点钱 |
| 88 | because you just need a BA, LLB to be a lawyer | 因为你只需要一个学士,法学士做律师 |
| 89 | or even to be a judge. | 甚至成为一名法官。 |
| 90 | And I said, well, you're spending your money | 我说,好吧,你在花你的钱 |
| 91 | on buying a Mercedes Benz. | 买一辆奔驰 |
| 92 | I want to follow my interest in law | 我想跟随我对法律的兴趣 |
| 93 | because I feel that you have to have an understanding | 因为我觉得 你必须有一个理解 |
| 94 | of international law | 国际法 |
| 95 | to raise human rights arguments in the courts. | 在法庭上提出人权论点。 |
| 96 | So long story, that's how I got interested | 说来话长,我就是这么感兴趣的 |
| 97 | in becoming an international judge. | 成为国际法官。 |
| 98 | Well, obviously it's not so easy. | 很明显这不容易 |
| 99 | So President Nelson Mandela appointed me | 所以纳尔逊·曼德拉总统任命我 |
| 100 | as an acting judge in KwaZulu-Natal. | 在夸祖鲁-纳塔尔担任代理法官。 |
| 101 | It was first woman of color. | 是第一个有色人种的女人 |
| 102 | You know, and he phoned me to such a lovely surprise. | 你知道,他打电话给我 一个可爱的惊喜。 |
| 103 | He phoned me and he didn't say, | 他打电话给我,他没有说, |
| 104 | well, I'm trying you out, do your job properly. | 好吧,我尝试你, 做你的工作。 |
| 105 | Don't let me down. | 别让我失望 |
| 106 | You know, this is what people usually say, but not him. | 你知道,这是人们通常说的,但不是他。 |
| 107 | He said, this appointment gives me great joy. | 他说,这个约会让我非常高兴 |
| 108 | I hope it can become permanent soon. | 我希望它能很快成为永久的。 |
| 109 | So before it became permanent, | 因此,在它变得永久之前, |
| 110 | he and the Minister of Justice and Foreign Affairs | 他与司法和外交部长 |
| 111 | submitted my name to the United Nations General Assembly. | 向联合国大会提交我的名字。 |
| 112 | This was South Africa being reunited with the United Nations | 这是南非与联合国重新统一 |
| 113 | after our elections in 94. | 94年选举之后 |
| 114 | So this was early 1995, | 所以这是1995年初, |
| 115 | when my name was submitted by them | 当我的名字被他们提交 |
| 116 | to be elected as a judge on the United Nations | 当选为联合国法官 |
| 117 | International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. | 卢旺达问题国际刑事法庭。 |
| 118 | We call that ICTR. | 我们称之为卢旺达问题国际法庭。 |
| 119 | And that was based in Arusha, Tanzania. | 总部位于坦桑尼亚阿鲁沙。 |
| 120 | And it meant I had to leave home | 这意味着我不得不离开家 |
| 121 | at a crucial point in our history, our legal history. | 在我们历史、法律史的关键时刻 |
| 122 | But if you get a call like that and member states elect you, | 但是如果你接到这样的电话 成员国选举你 |
| 123 | there is no question that you would go | 毫无疑问你会去 |
| 124 | and make a contribution. | 并做出贡献。 |
| 125 | So that's how I became an international judge. | 所以我就成了国际法官。 |
| 126 | And there's so much richness in that answer, Judge Perley, | 帕利法官 答案很丰富 |
| 127 | when you think about the firsts | 当你想到第一次的时候 |
| 128 | and the groundbreaking strides | 和突破性进展 |
| 129 | that you made as an acting judge, | 你曾以法官的名义, |
| 130 | first black female acting judge in KwaZulu, Natal. | 第一位黑人女代理法官 在夸祖鲁,纳塔尔。 |
| 131 | But there was another first even before that | 但之前还有另一个 |
| 132 | in terms of being the first woman to begin a law practice | 作为第一位开始法律实践的妇女; |
| 133 | in what was then the Natal province in South Africa. | 当时南非的纳塔尔省 |
| 134 | And this was way back in 1967. | 这是很久以前的1967年。 |
| 135 | And I know that your memory is as sharp as a razor | 我知道你的记忆像剃刀一样尖锐 |
| 136 | to be able to invoke for us | 能为我们祈祷 |
| 137 | what it means to be a black woman in South Africa | 成为南非黑人妇女意味着什么 |
| 138 | at that time in the legal profession, trailblazing. | 那时在法律界, 领先。 |
| 139 | And to be poor with no contacts, that would have helped me. | 和贫穷,没有联系, 那会帮助我。 |
| 140 | I went from office to office, | 我从办公室到办公室 |
| 141 | they're mostly white law firms, | 他们大多是白人律师事务所 |
| 142 | and got the same answer that we can't give you a job | 得到同样的答案,我们不能给你一个工作 |
| 143 | because we cannot have white secretaries | 因为我们不能有白秘书 |
| 144 | taking instructions from a black person. | 接受一个黑人的指示 |
| 145 | And secondly, you're a woman, what if you fall pregnant? | 其次,你是一个女人, 如果你怀孕了呢? |
| 146 | And thirdly, class discrimination. | 第三,阶级歧视。 |
| 147 | I say it's gender, race, and class discrimination. | 我说这是性别、种族和阶级歧视。 |
| 148 | Is they ask me, well, what does your father do? | 是他们问我 你父亲是做什么的? |
| 149 | Is he a businessman? | 他是商人吗? |
| 150 | Can you bring us work to the office? | 你能带我们去办公室吗? |
| 151 | So that's the brick wall I met with. | 这就是我遇到的砖墙。 |
| 152 | And that's when I decided, | 那时我决定 |
| 153 | always that's another message in my life. | 我这辈子总有另一个信息 |
| 154 | Wherever you see a crack, then you enter. | 凡见裂缝,便入. |
| 155 | You enter and use that opportunity. | 你进入并利用这个机会。 |
| 156 | So of course I'm talking now, super confident, not then. | 所以,我当然是说现在, 超级自信,而不是当时。 |
| 157 | You're very young and nobody's supporting you. | 你非常年轻 没人支持你 |
| 158 | You know, various friends and family | 你知道,各种朋友和家人 |
| 159 | helped me set up that office. | 帮我建立了办公室。 |
| 160 | My father and my brother's father-in-law | 我父亲和哥哥的岳父 |
| 161 | both came and built the partitions. | 都来了 并建造了隔板。 |
| 162 | That kind of help I had to set up this office. | 那种帮助 我不得不建立这个办公室。 |
| 163 | Someone lent me a typewriter and a ream of paper. | 有人借我打字机和一张纸 |
| 164 | And I thought the worst that'll happen | 我以为最糟糕的事会发生 |
| 165 | is I'll have to close shortly, but it didn't. | 我很快就要关门了,但是没有 |
| 166 | And I got lots of help from other black attorneys. | 我得到了很多帮助 从其他的黑人律师。 |
| 167 | They passed work on to me. | 他们把工作交给我 |
| 168 | And that's how it all started. | 这一切就是这样开始的。 |
| 169 | And I'm very pleased to tell you how many other women, | 我很高兴告诉你 还有多少女人 |
| 170 | lawyers, started their own practices after that. | 律师们,从那以后他们开始练习 |
| 171 | That is just amazing. | 这太神奇了 |
| 172 | When you think about pioneering in a context | 当你想到一个背景的先驱 |
| 173 | where there was so much repression | 有这么多的镇压 |
| 174 | and in the mix, as you've added, poverty, | 再加上贫穷, |
| 175 | it really becomes such a remarkable story | 它真的成为了这样一个了不起的故事 |
| 176 | and who would have thought? | 谁会想到呢? |
| 177 | Did you know that you would go on | 你知道你会继续 |
| 178 | to have this amazing career ahead of you? | 让你有这个惊人的事业在你前面? |
| 179 | Could you have dreamt it? | 你能做梦吗? |
| 180 | Did you dream it? | 你做梦了吗? |
| 181 | No, it's too remote a dream | 不,这是太遥远的梦想 |
| 182 | because we were so, we were brought up under oppression. | 因为我们是如此, 我们是在压迫之下长大的。 |
| 183 | We had to build our own confidence and think big. | 我们不得不建立我们自己的信心和思考。 |
| 184 | We could not think big. | 我们想不出什么大问题 |
| 185 | This was a wonderful surprise | 这真是个惊喜 |
| 186 | where the president and minister of justice Dalla Omar | 总统兼司法部长达拉·奥马尔 |
| 187 | appointed me as the acting judge | 任命我为代理法官 |
| 188 | and then put my name forward. | 然后把我的名字说出来。 |
| 189 | And I had the most votes. | 我得到了最多的选票。 |
| 190 | It doesn't matter. | 没关系 |
| 191 | The six judges, I'm the only woman. | 六位法官,我是唯一一个女人 |
| 192 | It doesn't matter. | 没关系 |
| 193 | But for me, it was significant | 但对我来说,这很重要 |
| 194 | that I had the vote of every African country. | 我得到了每个非洲国家的投票。 |
| 195 | And of course, the security council unanimously. | 当然,安全委员会是一致的。 |
| 196 | It was often said that Africans are chauvinistic. | 人们经常说,非洲人是沙文主义的。 |
| 197 | They won't appoint women, | 他们不会任命女人的 |
| 198 | but there you are in 1995, | 但是你在1995年的时候 |
| 199 | the whole of Africa voted for me. | 整个非洲都投给我了 |
| 200 | So that meant a great deal to me. | 这对我很重要 |
| 201 | I never imagined, but I wanted to be a good lawyer. | 我没想到 但我想当个好律师 |
| 202 | That's why I studied international law. | 故学国际法. |
| 203 | I wanna go back to one of the things that you raised | 我想回到你提过的事情 |
| 204 | at the beginning of our conversation. | 在我们谈话开始时 |
| 205 | And this is your role as judge | 这就是你作为法官的角色 |
| 206 | of the UN international criminal tribunal for Rwanda. | 联合国卢旺达国际刑事法庭庭长 |
| 207 | And if you reflect back, this was such a seminal moment | 如果你回想一下,这是这样一个开创性的时刻 |
| 208 | because we share this sort of twinning with Rwanda | 因为我们和卢旺达有这种结对关系 |
| 209 | in terms of the accomplishment | 成绩 |
| 210 | and the attainment of our freedom. | 以及实现我们的自由。 |
| 211 | And theirs in the lead up to their freedom | 而他们的自由 |
| 212 | was a great deal of bloodshed. | 血流成河 |
| 213 | And you had to traverse these really fine lines. | 你必须穿过这些非常精细的线条。 |
| 214 | And you made some really interesting judgments | 你做了一些非常有趣的判断 |
| 215 | when it came to the people who were involved, | 当时,有许多民众, |
| 216 | both politically, but also from a media perspective. | 无论是政治方面,还是媒体方面。 |
| 217 | And as a media practitioner myself, | 作为一名媒体从业人员, |
| 218 | I found that really quite fascinating. | 我发现这真的很迷人。 |
| 219 | Take us back into that time at the ICTR | 带我们回到那个时候 在卢旺达问题国际法庭 |
| 220 | in Arusha, Tanzania, when you're appointed in a way | 在坦桑尼亚的阿鲁沙, 当你被任命的方式 |
| 221 | that might've, I think, messed with your own plans | 这也许,我想, 搞砸了你自己的计划 |
| 222 | and your own aspirations for what you wanted to do, | 以及你们对自己所欲做的事的期望, |
| 223 | but you were handpicked to go and do | 却被亲手挑出来 |
| 224 | this really important cause that stands out | 这很重要的事业 |
| 225 | in the legal history, not only on the continent, | 在法律史上,不仅在大陆, |
| 226 | but in the world. | 但在这个世界上 |
| 227 | Well, really, thank you for raising that. | 嗯,真的,谢谢你提起这个。 |
| 228 | Firstly, it was a lot of hard work. | 首先,这是许多艰苦的工作。 |
| 229 | So nothing is easy. | 所以没有什么是容易的。 |
| 230 | Judges work very hard. | 法官们工作非常努力。 |
| 231 | I want to make that clear. | 我要说清楚 |
| 232 | All over the world, they work really hard. | 全世界的人都很努力工作 |
| 233 | And this is what happened. | 这就是发生的事情。 |
| 234 | We had not been taught international law | 我们没有学会国际法 |
| 235 | at our universities. | 在我们的大学。 |
| 236 | So you had to catch up very fast on the law. | 所以,你必须赶上非常快的 关于法律。 |
| 237 | It's true that it interrupted my own dreams | 是真的,它打断了我的梦想 |
| 238 | because I wanted to serve, continue to serve | 因为我想服务,继续服务 |
| 239 | as a judge in South Africa after such a long struggle | 作为南非的法官 经过如此漫长的斗争 |
| 240 | in getting our change to democracy. | 帮助我们实现民主 |
| 241 | That's what I wanted to do. | 这就是我想做的。 |
| 242 | However, this was an exciting opportunity. | 然而,这是一个令人振奋的机会。 |
| 243 | And we were established after Rwanda asked | 我们是在卢旺达要求下建立的 |
| 244 | the Security Council for a tribunal, | 关于设立一个法庭, |
| 245 | just like the Security Council set up a tribunal | 就像安全理事会设立法庭一样 |
| 246 | for former Yugoslavia. | 前南斯拉夫问题 |
| 247 | Soon I realized all the inequalities | 很快我意识到了所有的不平等 |
| 248 | in the Western country support for Yugoslavia | 支助南斯拉夫 |
| 249 | and the inequalities we faced in a rural, rural place. | 以及我们在农村面临的不平等。 |
| 250 | There wasn't even pasteurized milk | 连消毒奶都没有 |
| 251 | and there was no supermarket, no banks, no tarred roads. | 没有超市 没有银行 没有柏油路 |
| 252 | These were all challenges, but you'll be surprised, | 这些都是挑战 但你会惊讶的 |
| 253 | Iman, how we grew to love the place | 伊曼,我们如何成长 爱的地方 |
| 254 | because of the beautiful mountains that are there. | 因为那里有美丽的山 |
| 255 | But I'm drifting. | 但我漂浮着。 |
| 256 | So let me say that I think they established, | 所以,让我说,我认为他们建立了, |
| 257 | the UN established the Rwanda Tribunal | 联合国设立卢旺达问题法庭 |
| 258 | because there was already one for Yugoslavia, | 因为南斯拉夫已经有一个 |
| 259 | established a year before that. | 在那之前的一年就已经建立了 |
| 260 | Rwanda asked for this tribunal, | 卢旺达要求设立该法庭, |
| 261 | but in the end they voted against the resolution | 但最后他们投票反对这个决议 |
| 262 | because one, they wanted the court to be situated in Kigali | 因为其中之一 他们希望法庭设在基加利 |
| 263 | and two, they wanted the death penalty | 第二,他们想要死刑 |
| 264 | and the UN member states are opposed to the death penalty | 联合国会员国反对死刑 |
| 265 | in large measure. | 在很大程度上。 |
| 266 | And thirdly, they wanted the temporal jurisdiction | 第三,他们想要临时管辖权 |
| 267 | to be from somewhat earlier, I think 1980, | 更早的时候,我想,1980年。 |
| 268 | instead of this court being established | 而不是现在的法院 |
| 269 | only for what happened in 1994. | 只为1994年发生的事 |
| 270 | So temporal territorial jurisdiction, | 因此,属时属地管辖权, |
| 271 | they voted against it. | 他们投了反对票 |
| 272 | However, they supported the tribunal fully. | 但是,他们完全支持法庭。 |
| 273 | And I went over to meet with President Kagame several times | 我过去跟卡加梅总统见过几次面 |
| 274 | because the court needed support. | 因为法庭需要支持 |
| 275 | We needed witnesses to come from there. | 我们需要证人从那里来。 |
| 276 | It's always a challenge setting up a new institutions. | 建立新机构总是一项挑战. |
| 277 | It would have been so much easier | 那样就容易多了 |
| 278 | to enter a South African courtroom | 进入南非法庭 |
| 279 | where you have everything. | 你拥有一切 |
| 280 | So we had to play a bigger role for justice. | 所以我们必须发挥更大的司法作用。 |
| 281 | I'm so happy you mentioned these two cases | 我很高兴你提到这两个案子 |
| 282 | because they are groundbreaking jurisprudence. | 因为它们是开创性的判例。 |
| 283 | One is the AKESU trial | 一个是AKESU的审判 |
| 284 | and I was a judge in a three judge bench. | 我是三位法官的法官 |
| 285 | We worked very well together from Senegal, | 我们从塞内加尔合作得很好 |
| 286 | Sweden and South Africa. | 瑞典和南非。 |
| 287 | And that judgment for the very first time | 而这个判断是第一次 |
| 288 | declared that rape and sexual violence | 强奸和性暴力 |
| 289 | against women and boys and men | 妇女、男童和男子 |
| 290 | is a crime against humanity, | 是一种危害人类罪, |
| 291 | is a crime of genocide and a war crime. | 这是一种灭绝种族罪和战争罪。 |
| 292 | So can you imagine up to that point, | 所以,你能想象到这一点, |
| 293 | it had never been recognized as a crime. | 它从未被确认为犯罪。 |
| 294 | Sexual violence was always taken for granted, | 性暴力始终被认为是理所当然的, |
| 295 | almost offered as a reward to the soldiers. | 几乎给了士兵奖励 |
| 296 | And they were even facilitated, | 他们甚至被便利, |
| 297 | if you think of the comfort women issue in Japan, | 如果你想到日本的慰安妇问题 |
| 298 | the Japanese war. | 抗日战争 |
| 299 | There there's a state that facilitated this service | 有个州为这个服务提供便利 |
| 300 | and reward for soldiers. | 并赏给士兵。 |
| 301 | So that's the mentality that had to change. | 这就是必须改变的心态。 |
| 302 | So the first decision on genocide itself | 所以第一个关于种族灭绝的决定 |
| 303 | having taken place, | 已经发生, |
| 304 | we had to spell out the elements of this crime. | 我们必须阐明犯罪内容 |
| 305 | It had never been prosecuted before. | 它以前从未被起诉。 |
| 306 | And for sexual violence, | 对于性暴力, |
| 307 | I found that there was no internationally accepted | 我发现没有国际接受的 |
| 308 | definition of genocide. | 种族灭绝的定义。 |
| 309 | You have national definition, but not international. | 你有国家定义,但不是国际定义。 |
| 310 | So we had to create a new definition | 所以我们不得不重新定义 |
| 311 | for that I consulted many, many states. | 我咨询了许多州 |
| 312 | Most states had the definition, | 大多数国家都有这个定义, |
| 313 | including South Africa, | 包括南非, |
| 314 | and the definition that there has to be penetration | 以及必须渗透的定义 |
| 315 | of the woman by the male. | 以男方为妻。 |
| 316 | And you have to have evidence of the penetration. | 你必须有渗透的证据。 |
| 317 | But how can that help us in a war zone | 但怎样才能帮助我们在战区 |
| 318 | where hundreds and thousands of people, | 那里有成千上万的人, |
| 319 | women especially were violated on those tier states | 妇女尤其在这些等级州受到侵犯 |
| 320 | and the hills. | 和丘陵, |
| 321 | Nobody actually saw it, | 没有人真正看到它, |
| 322 | and witnesses would get very irritated | 证人会非常恼火 |
| 323 | with us probing questions about, | 和我们调查的问题, |
| 324 | well, did you see him penetrator? | 你有没有看到他穿透器? |
| 325 | And so the witness would say, | 所以证人会说, |
| 326 | he pulled the girl out of our lines, | 他把那个女孩从我们的队伍里拉出来 |
| 327 | took her away, | 把她带走了 |
| 328 | or I saw him drop his pants on the hilltop. | 或者我看见他把裤子丢在山顶上 |
| 329 | So therefore the new definition that we created | 因此我们创造了新的定义 |
| 330 | is gender neutral, | 性别中立, |
| 331 | because it happens to women and men. | 因为它发生在男女。 |
| 332 | And it is not a body part definition. | 它不是一个身体部分的定义。 |
| 333 | And this is what we said, | 这就是我们所说的, |
| 334 | if I remember correctly, | 如果我没记错的话 |
| 335 | that rape is the physical invasion | 强奸就是人身侵犯 |
| 336 | of a sexual nature under coercive circumstances. | 在胁迫性情况下的性行为。 |
| 337 | So it doesn't say it's only what happens to women or girls. | 故不说只见于女人或女孩. |
| 338 | And I'm very happy to say that definition | 我很高兴地说这个定义 |
| 339 | has been adopted partly in the Rome Statute. | 部分在《罗马规约》中获得通过。 |
| 340 | It's been adopted by two states in the United States, | 它已经被美国两个州通过, |
| 341 | and it's been adopted by South Africa. | 并被南非采纳. |
| 342 | You will remember that in South Africa, | 你会记得在南非 |
| 343 | a magistrate could not believe that he had to send, | 地方法官不能相信他不得不派遣, |
| 344 | he had a case before him of a little boy child | 他有一个小男孩的案子 |
| 345 | who had been molested, | 曾受凌辱者, |
| 346 | where the sentence is much lower | 在句子要低得多的地方 |
| 347 | than if it had been a girl child victim. | 比起是女童受害者 |
| 348 | And he felt the suffering of the victim was the same. | 他觉得受害者的痛苦是一样的 |
| 349 | So he sent that up to the higher courts, | 所以他把这个送到了上级法院 |
| 350 | the higher courts sent it to the constitutional court. | 高等法院将其送交宪法法院。 |
| 351 | The constitutional court quoted my judgment of Atayesu | 宪法法院引用我对阿塔耶苏的判决 |
| 352 | and asked the South African government | 问南非政府 |
| 353 | to change the definition. | 更改定义。 |
| 354 | So you see, Iman, we do small things, | 你看,伊曼,我们做一些小事 |
| 355 | we don't know how far it would go, | 我们不知道会走多远 |
| 356 | but if you have the opportunity, you have to do that. | 但是如果你有机会, 你必须这样做。 |
| 357 | You have to break that brick wall. | 你必须打破砖墙。 |
| 358 | Everywhere, in every corner of the world I go to, | 到处都是,在每一个角落 我去过的世界, |
| 359 | people recognize me for that judgment. | 人们承认我的判断。 |
| 360 | The media judgment that you mentioned, Iman, | 伊曼,你提到的媒体判断 |
| 361 | I am more proud of the media judgment | 我对媒体的判断更自豪 |
| 362 | because people were horrified at the notion | 因为人们对这个概念感到恐惧 |
| 363 | that you can charge journalists | 你可以对记者收费 |
| 364 | and the owners of a radio station or media | 电台或媒体的所有人 |
| 365 | for the crime of genocide. | 种族灭绝罪行。 |
| 366 | When they didn't hold a machete or a gun, | 当他们没有拿着大砍刀或枪时 |
| 367 | they didn't actually do anything. | 他们没有做任何事情。 |
| 368 | So how could we have found them guilty of genocide? | 那么,我们如何认定他们犯有灭绝种族罪? |
| 369 | And so when we delivered that judgment, | 所以当我们做出判决时 |
| 370 | the whole media was there, | 整个媒体在那里, |
| 371 | and it hit the front pages of papers | 并击中报纸的头版 |
| 372 | like New York Times and Washington Post, | 比如纽约时报和华盛顿邮报 |
| 373 | and they all support the judgment. | 他们都支持判决 |
| 374 | And why? | 为什么? |
| 375 | Because even though the media has freedom of the press, | 因为尽管媒体有新闻自由, |
| 376 | freedom of expression, it comes with responsibilities. | 言论自由与责任相关。 |
| 377 | So you can't instigate or promote violence and genocide. | 所以你不能煽动或宣扬暴力和种族灭绝 |
| 378 | And that is in the International Covenant | 这是在国际公约中 |
| 379 | on Civil and Political Rights. | 公民权利和政治权利 |
| 380 | We drew it from there, | 我们从那里画的, |
| 381 | and we built the case on the fact | 我们把案子建立在事实之上 |
| 382 | that had it not been for that radio station, | 没有那个电台, |
| 383 | 叫做RTLM电台 | |
| 384 | spreading these poisonous messages | 传播这些有毒信息 |
| 385 | and also directing the killers. | 并指挥杀手。 |
| 386 | Here there's some Tutsis approaching the roadblock | 这里有图西族人靠近路障 |
| 387 | at this point. | 此时此刻 |
| 388 | Watch out for their small noses and break them. | 当心他们的小鼻子并打破它们。 |
| 389 | That's an example of the kind of hate speech | 这是仇恨言论的例子 |
| 390 | and provocative speech. | 和挑衅性言论。 |
| 391 | So when you understand the facts, | 所以当你了解事实 |
| 392 | you can see why the media accepted that judgment. | 你可以看到为什么媒体接受这个判断。 |
| 393 | Let me say before I finish my answer on this, | 让我说 在我完成我的答案之前 |
| 394 | there was so much prejudice against the Rwanda Tribunal | 对卢旺达法庭有如此严重的偏见 |
| 395 | from certain countries and media interests. | 来自某些国家和媒体的利益。 |
| 396 | One of the lawyers said at the court, | 一位律师在法庭上说 |
| 397 | well, this is yet another African institution | 这是另一个非洲机构 |
| 398 | bound to failure. | 注定失败 |
| 399 | Obviously it came from a northern white man. | 显然它来自一个北方白人。 |
| 400 | And this is why I'm proud of our judgments, | 这就是为什么我对我们的判决感到骄傲, |
| 401 | because the major groundbreaking judgments | 因为重大突破性的判决 |
| 402 | came from the Rwanda Tribunal | 来自卢旺达法庭 |
| 403 | and is being followed all over the world. | 并在世界各地受到跟踪。 |
| 404 | And this tribunal was, it's true, | 这个法庭是,这是真的, |
| 405 | it was very expensive, long drawn out. | 它非常昂贵, 长期抽出。 |
| 406 | You can criticize it in many aspects, | 你可以在很多方面批评它, |
| 407 | but the Rwanda Tribunal tried and convicted | 但卢旺达法庭审判并定罪 |
| 408 | close to 50 leaders, political leaders, military leaders, | 近50名领导人、政治领导人、军事领导人、 |
| 409 | and the ones responsible for lots of killings, | 和许多杀人犯, |
| 410 | giving orders and so on, and this radio station. | 命令等等 还有这个电台 |
| 411 | This is what we are hoping for in South Africa, | 这就是我们在南非的希望 |
| 412 | that those who are criminally liable at the top | 追究最高层刑事责任的人 |
| 413 | for corruption should be brought to trial. | 腐败应该受到审判。 |
| 414 | This is what we mean by wanting justice done. | 这就是我们希望伸张正义的含义。 |
| 415 | You know, I went there to serve for one year. | 你知道,我去那里服务一年。 |
| 416 | I thought I'll resign and come back. | 我以为我会辞职回来 |
| 417 | I stayed for eight and a half years | 我在这呆了八年半 |
| 418 | because of the courage of these witnesses, | 由于这些证人的勇气, |
| 419 | especially the women witnesses talking about | 特别是女证人在谈论 |
| 420 | what had been done to them. | 对他们做了什么。 |
| 421 | And one of them, or quite a few said to us in the courtroom, | 他们中的一个人,或几个人在法庭上对我们说, |
| 422 | we are here because we wanted to see justice done. | 我们在这里,因为我们希望看到正义得到伸张。 |
| 423 | So I had to examine my own conscience | 所以我不得不检查自己的良心 |
| 424 | and fulfill my role as a judge. | 履行我作为法官的职责 |
| 425 | I wanna circle back to that concept in just a moment | 我想马上回到那个概念上来 |
| 426 | when you have an idea for how your professional career | 当你对你的职业生涯有想法时 |
| 427 | will evolve and the commitments that you make, | 将进化,你的承诺, |
| 428 | and what happens when you revert to that spirit | 回到那种精神会怎样 |
| 429 | of what prompted you to pursue law, | 以什么为你们遵循正道, |
| 430 | not only as a career, but almost as a belief system, | 不仅是事业 几乎是信仰体系 |
| 431 | as a philosophical endeavor in your life. | 作为你的哲学努力 |
| 432 | I think that's so powerful, Judge, | 法官,我觉得这太厉害了 |
| 433 | and I wanna come back to that in a second, | 我想马上回来 |
| 434 | but I wanna go back to Jean-Paul Acquiesceau. | 但我想回到让-保罗·阿奎埃索 |
| 435 | When you're in that moment of, I mean, | 当你在那一刻,我的意思是, |
| 436 | you don't know that somehow things are gonna turn out | 你不知道事情会怎样 |
| 437 | in a legal journey, so to speak, | 在法律的旅程,所以说, |
| 438 | or in a journey in a court when you're hearing testimony. | 或在法庭上旅行 当你听到证词。 |
| 439 | And yet it turns out that these groundbreaking judgments, | 然而这些开创性的判决 |
| 440 | these precedent-setting judgments are made | 作出这些开创先例的判决 |
| 441 | that relate not only to the case that you're prosecuting, | 不仅和你起诉的案件有关 |
| 442 | but also, or that you're hearing or presiding over, | 但是,或者你正在听或者主持, |
| 443 | but to other areas of the law in places | 法律的其他领域 |
| 444 | you couldn't have anticipated, | 你无法预料 |
| 445 | including in a little courtroom, | 包括在法庭里 |
| 446 | in a magistrate's court in South Africa. | 在南非地方法院。 |
| 447 | Tell me about the chutzpah, in a sense, | 从某种意义上说 说说那个小胖子 |
| 448 | that you need as a human being | 作为人需要的 |
| 449 | to be able to pursue that course, | 为了能够继续这个课程, |
| 450 | despite everything else. | 不顾一切 |
| 451 | You know, these are judicial ethics, | 你知道,这是司法道德, |
| 452 | but it's the ethics in any job that you hold. | 但是,这是职业道德 你从事的任何工作。 |
| 453 | It's to perform your best. | 是为成就功德. |
| 454 | Why wouldn't the public look up to you to do exactly that? | 为什么公众不指望你这样做呢? |
| 455 | And very often when I've received many awards | 经常当我得到很多奖项 |
| 456 | and truly blessed with honorary doctorates | 并获得荣誉博士学位 |
| 457 | from many universities outside the country and here, | 从很多大学 国外和这里, |
| 458 | so when I'm rewarded and acknowledged, | 所以,当我得到奖励和承认, |
| 459 | then I say, you know, I was a public servant | 然后我说,你知道,我是公务员 |
| 460 | and I was doing my job properly. | 我当时正做好我的工作 |
| 461 | A lot has to do with judicial ethics as well. | 与司法道德也有很大关系。 |
| 462 | You have to follow that, and I think most judges do. | 你必须遵循这一点,我认为大多数法官都这样做。 |
| 463 | We are committed. | 我们承诺。 |
| 464 | A US, one US ambassador asked me, | 一个美国大使问我, |
| 465 | so who's your boss? | 你老板是谁? |
| 466 | Who are you accountable to? | 你对谁负责? |
| 467 | I am accountable to my president. | 我对总统负责 |
| 468 | He was talking about the US president. | 他说的是美国总统 |
| 469 | And I said, we judges are accountable to the law | 我说,我们法官对法律负责 |
| 470 | and to the public who are watching us. | 以及那些监视我们的公众 |
| 471 | That reflects so beautiful about accountability. | 这反映了问责制如此美丽。 |
| 472 | I think for everyone who's looking at the legal profession, | 我想对于所有看法律专业的人来说 |
| 473 | even those who are aspirant lawyers, | 即使是有志的律师, |
| 474 | wanna know what does it take within oneself | 想知道这里面有什么 |
| 475 | to stay that course, even when the evidence is just horrible | 即使证据是可怕的 |
| 476 | and you're reliving things in a sense | 你从某种意义上来说是重生 |
| 477 | with everyone else who's giving evidence. | 和所有提供证据的人一起 |
| 478 | I think it takes a lot because what you've heard and seen | 我想这需要很多,因为你听到和看到 |
| 479 | stays with you for life. | 永远和你在一起。 |
| 480 | It disturbs your sleep and you suffer | 它扰乱你的睡眠,你受苦 |
| 481 | with victims who have suffered. | 和受苦受难的受害者 |
| 482 | What made me go on despite, | 是什么让我继续,尽管, |
| 483 | of course, I was a big complainer. | 当然,我是一个大抱怨者。 |
| 484 | Don't get me wrong. | 别误会 |
| 485 | I complained about everything because we had less power. | 我抱怨一切是因为我们没有那么强大 |
| 486 | We all know what that's like right now in South Africa. | 在南非,我们都知道现在的情况。 |
| 487 | But in Arusha, no power, no computers, no telephones. | 但在阿鲁沙,没有电源,没有计算机,没有电话. |
| 488 | Did I tell you the bishop's wife offered | 我告诉过你,主教的太太 |
| 489 | to give me milk from her cows? | 给我牛奶 从她的牛? |
| 490 | And she asked me, how many pints do you want? | 她问我,你要多少品脱? |
| 491 | That kind of thing. | 那种东西。 |
| 492 | And that actually unfortunately was prioritized by me | 可惜的是,这被我放在优先位置 |
| 493 | instead of being educated by the witnesses. | 而不是被证人教育。 |
| 494 | Or at least that's the way we started off. | 至少我们是这样开始的 |
| 495 | And often I would say, what am I doing here? | 我经常说,我在这里做什么? |
| 496 | I want to go back home to my city. | 欲归本邑. |
| 497 | And then you listen to the witnesses. | 然后你听证人。 |
| 498 | Your conscience moves you to say you have a job to do here. | 你的良心感动你 说你有工作在这里。 |
| 499 | So everyone knows this, but I was the judge | 每个人都知道,但我是法官 |
| 500 | who asked the first question to a witness | 他向证人问了第一个问题 |
| 501 | about the occurrence of sexual violence. | 关于性暴力的发生。 |
| 502 | So when we were over with the case, | 所以当我们处理完案子时 |
| 503 | it went on appeal to the appellate division | 向上诉庭提出上诉 |
| 504 | of the two tribunals. | 两个法庭的特权和豁免。 |
| 505 | The one of the grounds of appeal raised by the lawyers | 律师提出的上诉理由之一 |
| 506 | is that I was biased. | 是我有偏见 |
| 507 | I'm a feminist and I was influenced by the women | 我是个女权主义者 我受到女人的影响 |
| 508 | who were demonstrating in the streets of Rwanda. | 他们正在卢旺达街头示威。 |
| 509 | They never seem to ask these questions of male judges, | 他们从不问男性法官的问题 |
| 510 | but assume because I'm a woman, yes, I am taking sides here | 但假设我是女人,是的,我是站在这边的 |
| 511 | and I'm not impartial. | 和我不是公正的。 |
| 512 | And of course the appeals court threw that out. | 当然,上诉法院 扔掉了这一点。 |
| 513 | They said that in fact, it should be a criteria | 他们说,事实上,这应该是一个标准 |
| 514 | for a judge to have some experience | 法官有经验 |
| 515 | of gender-based violence and so on. | 基于性别的暴力等等。 |
| 516 | So it's a conscience, it's caring, | 所以这是一种良心, 它关心, |
| 517 | caring about the victims and what they've suffered, | 关心受害者和他们遭受的痛苦, |
| 518 | really caring and understanding their point of view. | 真正关心和理解他们的观点。 |
| 519 | How did I attempt to even draw a new definition? | 我怎么试图画出一个新的定义? |
| 520 | Because I asked this one woman who gave evidence | 因为我问了这个女人 谁提供了证据 |
| 521 | of her six-year-old daughter being raped by four men | 她六岁的女儿被四人强奸 |
| 522 | and she knew the names of the men. | 她知道这些男人的名字 |
| 523 | This was all in the conflict in the midst of the war. | 这都是在战争中发生的冲突。 |
| 524 | She herself was raped, | 她自己被强奸了 |
| 525 | a number of other women with her were raped. | 其他一些与她在一起的妇女遭到强奸。 |
| 526 | She gave all that evidence and I asked her, | 她提供了所有的证据 我问她 |
| 527 | not me, I didn't ask, the prosecutor, | 不是我 我没问 检察官 |
| 528 | and he was also from the US, asked her, | 他也是美国人 问她 |
| 529 | yes, but did he penetrate you? | 是的,但他有没有穿透你? |
| 530 | See, he was watching out for the requirements | 你看,他是在看着 的要求 |
| 531 | of the definition as he knew it. | 他知道的定义。 |
| 532 | So did he penetrate you? | 他渗入你体内了吗? |
| 533 | And she said, that's not the only thing they did. | 她说,这不是唯一的事情 他们做了。 |
| 534 | I'm a mother and these are young boys | 我是母亲,这些是小男孩 |
| 535 | and they didn't respect me and the things they said to me | 他们不尊重我和对我说的话 |
| 536 | when they were raping me. | 他们强奸我的时候 |
| 537 | Now that kind of answer alerted me | 现在这种回答提醒了我 |
| 538 | and should alert judges on how victims view this crime | 并且应当提醒法官,受害人如何看待这种犯罪 |
| 539 | and how they explain their suffering. | 以及他们如何解释他们的痛苦。 |
| 540 | And so we said in our judgment | 所以我们在判断中说 |
| 541 | that it's like taking away their life. | 就像夺走了他们的生命 |
| 542 | This is the impact on victims. | 这是对受害者的影响。 |
| 543 | So caring about while at the time | 这么在意当时 |
| 544 | following the strict rules that all judges do, | 遵循所有法官的严格规则, |
| 545 | you will not convict if there isn't evidence | 如果没有证据,你就不会定罪 |
| 546 | beyond reasonable doubt, but you can still be empathetic. | 毋庸置疑,但你仍然可以 同情。 |
| 547 | Quite a few women judges shed tears, by the way. | 顺便说一句,有不少女法官流泪。 |
| 548 | I was at one conference where that alone was discussed | 我参加过一次只讨论这个问题的会议 |
| 549 | about women shedding tears, women judges, | 关于女人流泪 女法官 |
| 550 | as if that is such a drawback for them. | 好像这是他们的缺点一样。 |
| 551 | And each one explained they were moved by the evidence. | 每个人都解释他们被证据感动了 |
| 552 | It doesn't mean that they were impartial. | 这并不意味着他们是公正的。 |
| 553 | They were moved by the evidence | 他们被证据带走了 |
| 554 | to the extent that they shed tears. | 以至于他们流泪。 |
| 555 | That's really profound what you're saying, | 你说的很深刻 |
| 556 | especially when we think about South Africa | 尤其是当我们想到南非的时候 |
| 557 | and its proliferation of GBV cases, | 以及基于性别的暴力案件激增, |
| 558 | very few of which actually make it into the court. | 很少能真正进入法庭 |
| 559 | And this need to have, even though justice should be blind, | 尽管正义是盲目的 |
| 560 | that empathetic, in a sense, | 从某种意义上说,那令人同情的, |
| 561 | connecting to what the victims are saying | 和受害者所说的有关 |
| 562 | and their experiences. | 和他们的经验。 |
| 563 | It's very, very powerful stuff, Judge. | 这是非常非常强大的东西,法官。 |
| 564 | I want to come back to South Africa | 我想回到南非来 |
| 565 | and back again to 1973 again. | 并再次回到1973年。 |
| 566 | You mentioned Robben Island at the beginning. | 你一开始提到罗本岛 |
| 567 | And there was a really important outcome of a case | 一个案子有个很重要的结果 |
| 568 | that you were a part of regarding conditions | 你曾经是条件的一部分 |
| 569 | in Robben Island, leading to another important precedent | 在罗本岛, 导致另一个重要的先例 |
| 570 | being set there in terms of prisoner rights. | 被设定在囚犯的权利。 |
| 571 | Do you want to take us back there for a moment? | 你想带我们回去一下吗? |
| 572 | Very few lawyers or no lawyers had access | 很少律师或没有律师可接触 |
| 573 | to their clients on Robben Island, | 致罗本岛上的客户 |
| 574 | except for Mr. Mandela. | 曼德拉先生除外。 |
| 575 | And so we would occasionally hear stories | 所以我们偶尔会听到一些故事 |
| 576 | of how badly they were being treated, the prisoners. | 他们受到的对待有多糟糕 囚犯们 |
| 577 | Like Indras Naidu in his book, | 就像他书中的"南都" |
| 578 | he was a Robben Island prisoner, | 他是一个罗本岛囚犯, |
| 579 | writes about the fact how they set the dogs | 写下他们如何设置狗的事实 |
| 580 | upon the inmates there and they were bitten and so on. | 他们被咬了, |
| 581 | We would hear this, but no lawyer had access to them. | 我们本可以听到的 但是没有律师能接触到他们 |
| 582 | I went to see my clients ostensibly | 我表面上去看我的客户 |
| 583 | to discuss their appeals. | 讨论他们的呼吁。 |
| 584 | And I made sure that we get all the court reports to them. | 我确保我们得到所有的法庭报告给他们。 |
| 585 | Now you have these interviews within sight, | 现在你有这些采访 在眼前, |
| 586 | but out of hearing, | 但从耳而闻, |
| 587 | but we all knew that they listened to every conversation, | 但我们都知道他们听了每句话 |
| 588 | including when Winnie Mandela visited Mandela, | 包括温妮·曼德拉访问曼德拉时, |
| 589 | no privacy, they listened to that entire conversation. | 没有隐私,他们听了整个谈话。 |
| 590 | And so we had to be, I had to be very creative. | 所以,我们必须,我必须非常有创意。 |
| 591 | I come from the outside. | 我从外道来. |
| 592 | So I had some of them read that law report loudly | 所以我让一些人 大声读了法律报告 |
| 593 | while we held conversations. | 我们谈话的时候 |
| 594 | I'm not supposed to talk about the prison conditions, | 我不应该谈论监狱的条件, |
| 595 | but that is what they wanted to talk about, not the appeal. | 但他们想谈的不是上诉 |
| 596 | And so they found, | 所以他们发现, |
| 597 | they put in a cell where it was now crowded | 他们关进一间牢房 现在挤满了 |
| 598 | with the additional inmates, | 与更多的囚犯, |
| 599 | but the food provisions was not increased. | 但食品供应没有增加。 |
| 600 | They were charged for violating prison regulations, | 他们被指控违反监狱条例, |
| 601 | but they didn't have a copy of the regulations, | 但他们没有条例的副本, |
| 602 | didn't know what their rights are. | 不知道他们的权利是什么 |
| 603 | And Carter Hashim, one of the accused, | 和卡特・哈希姆,被告之一, |
| 604 | he was also a lawyer. | 他还曾是一名律师。 |
| 605 | He started, he wrote down a petition | 他开始写请愿书 |
| 606 | to the officer commanding Robben Island | 给指挥罗本岛的军官 |
| 607 | and mainly asked whether they could teach English classes | 并主要询问他们是否可以教授英语课程 |
| 608 | to their trans-Chinese comrades and a whole list like that, | 他们的跨中国同志 和一整张这样的名单, |
| 609 | for which they punished him | 他们惩罚他, |
| 610 | and threw him into solitary confinement for six months. | 然后把他关了六个月 |
| 611 | And so he didn't see the others until I went over | 所以他没有看到其他人 直到我过去 |
| 612 | and they had to bring him and we saw all of us together. | 他们只好把他带到一起 我们看见了我们所有人 |
| 613 | And the main thing they wanted is for me to do something, | 他们希望我做点什么 |
| 614 | bring an application. | 带上申请表 |
| 615 | But they warned me or cautioned me | 他们警告我或警告我, |
| 616 | that Mr. Mandela sent a message to them | 曼德拉先生给他们发了一封信 |
| 617 | that he doesn't want any court action | 他不希望任何法庭诉讼 |
| 618 | because, understandably, | 因为,可以理解的是, |
| 619 | he didn't trust the apartheid courts. | 他不相信种族隔离法庭 |
| 620 | And he felt if we go to court, | 他觉得如果我们上法庭 |
| 621 | we will surely lose, then the ceiling will come down. | 我们一定会输,然后天花板就会下来。 |
| 622 | He preferred negotiation. | 他倾向于谈判。 |
| 623 | So I come out, this is 1971, 72, | 所以我出来了,这是1971,72, |
| 624 | very young, very immature and inexperienced. | 很年轻 很不成熟 经验不足 |
| 625 | So I went around consulting senior counsel, | 所以我去咨询高级律师 |
| 626 | you know, of all race groups, | 你知道,在所有种族群体中, |
| 627 | consulting our comrades who were lawyers, | 咨询我们的同志 谁是律师, |
| 628 | just spoke to everyone. | 刚刚和大家谈过了 |
| 629 | And the majority decision encouraged me to go for it. | 多数人决定鼓励我去做 |
| 630 | We brought an application in the Cape High Court | 我们向开普高等法院提出申请 |
| 631 | and at that time, you know, | 当时,你知道, |
| 632 | I never used the language human rights | 我从来没有使用过语言 人权 |
| 633 | or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, nothing. | 或《世界人权宣言》,什么都没有。 |
| 634 | We didn't know about it. | 我们不知道 |
| 635 | We used common law about what are rights | 我们使用普通法 关于什么是权利 |
| 636 | and what are privileges. | 特权是什么? |
| 637 | So do prisoners have rights? | 囚犯有权利吗? |
| 638 | And this is what the court spelled out. | 这就是法庭所阐明的。 |
| 639 | Firstly, they said that prisoners have a right | 首先,他们说囚犯有权利 |
| 640 | to have a copy of the regulations | 备有条例副本; |
| 641 | so they will know what's right and wrong. | 让他们知道是非 |
| 642 | Secondly, they had a right to a lawyer. | 第二,他们有权聘请律师。 |
| 643 | And if they broke any prison regulation | 如果他们违反了任何监狱条例 |
| 644 | or were charged for anything, there has to be a court case. | 或被指控任何罪名, 必须有一个法庭案件。 |
| 645 | They have to bring a magistrate from Cape Town | 他们必须从开普敦带一个地方法官 |
| 646 | and hold a hearing and allow defense lawyers and so on. | 并举行听证会,允许辩护律师等等。 |
| 647 | And the other right is they had a right to study. | 另一种权利是他们有学习的权利。 |
| 648 | This meant a great deal to them. | 这对他们意义重大。 |
| 649 | They all told me it helped them survive | 他们都告诉我,这帮他们活下来了 |
| 650 | because they were able to study and get books and so on. | 因为他们能够学习和获得书籍等等。 |
| 651 | The only right they were not allowed | 唯一的权利 他们不被允许 |
| 652 | and it was declared a privilege is the right to smoke. | 它被宣布为一种特权 吸烟的权利。 |
| 653 | So that's a privilege. | 所以,这是一个特权。 |
| 654 | That didn't mean much to the inmates, to my clients. | 这对囚犯和我的客户没有多大意义 |
| 655 | Obviously, it made a difference in the life | 很明显,这改变了生活 |
| 656 | of all prisoners on Robben Island, including Mr. Mandela. | 包括曼德拉先生在内。 |
| 657 | And it made a difference to all prisoners | 这对所有囚犯都有影响 |
| 658 | in every prison in our country. | 在我国的每一个监狱。 |
| 659 | So you begin with something, | 所以,你开始的东西, |
| 660 | you win some and you lose some, | 你赢了一些,你失去了一些, |
| 661 | but the benefits to all were there. | 但对大家都有好处 |
| 662 | So I'm very happy about that. | 所以我很高兴。 |
| 663 | At that time, under apartheid, | 当时,在种族隔离统治下, |
| 664 | there were certain ethics controlling lawyers. | 有一些操控道德的律师。 |
| 665 | I had to use my judgment to break those rules, | 我不得不用我的判断 打破那些规则, |
| 666 | talk about matters that they wanted to talk about, | 谈谈他们想谈的事 |
| 667 | for instance. | 举个例子 |
| 668 | And particularly, we did very well in this. | 特别是,我们在这方面做得非常好。 |
| 669 | The prison said that they had put in Kader, | 监狱说他们把卡德尔, |
| 670 | Ashim, separately because of their policy of segregation, | Ashim,由于他们的隔离政策, |
| 671 | not isolation. | 没有孤立。 |
| 672 | So I was able, you know, | 所以,我能够,你知道, |
| 673 | I'm in and out from the courtroom to visit them | 我出入法庭来看他们 |
| 674 | on the excuse that I'm consulting them on the appeal. | 借口是我正在就上诉咨询他们 |
| 675 | And so Kader drew a sketch of what's outside his door. | 于是卡德尔画了一张他门外的东西的草图. |
| 676 | So it was Sessmanda imprisonment, | 因此,这是塞斯曼达监禁, |
| 677 | what the Afrikaans word for imprisonment. | 南非佬说要坐牢 |
| 678 | I forget now, I knew it then, yes. | 我现在忘了,我知道了,是的。 |
| 679 | So it was a penalty. | 所以这是惩罚 |
| 680 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 681 | I mean, it's really interesting. | 我的意思是,这真的很有趣。 |
| 682 | Again, you know, this judgment comes out in 73 | 再说一遍,73年判决出来了 |
| 683 | by Judge Diedemont. | 由迪德蒙特法官主持。 |
| 684 | Now political prisoners, | 现在政治犯, |
| 685 | through the intervention that you had in this case, | 通过你的介入 本案, |
| 686 | had rights and privileges. | 拥有权利和特权。 |
| 687 | They now have the right of access to lawyers, | 他们现在有权接触律师, |
| 688 | the right for a trial when it comes to alleged violations | 对指称的侵权行为进行审判的权利 |
| 689 | of prison regulations. | 监狱条例。 |
| 690 | You know, people could now have lawyers. | 人们现在可以请律师了 |
| 691 | And also it was an opportunity | 也是一个机会 |
| 692 | to expose the prison conditions at the time. | 揭露当时的监狱条件。 |
| 693 | You know, at that time there was the biggest, | 你知道,当时有最大的, |
| 694 | the newspaper Round Daily Mail had it on their front page. | 报纸《圆日邮报》的头版有它。 |
| 695 | The curtain has lifted on Robben Island | 罗本岛的窗帘已经拉开 |
| 696 | for the very first time. | 这是第一次 |
| 697 | However, what I would like to share with you | 然而,我想告诉你的 |
| 698 | and listeners is that at the time my husband was detained, | 听者们说 我丈夫被拘留的时候 |
| 699 | also in 1971, 54 people, | 同样在1971年,54人, |
| 700 | 54 freedom fighters had died mysteriously in custody | 54名自由战士在拘留期间神秘死亡 |
| 701 | under detention by the security police | 被安全警察拘留者 |
| 702 | headed by this one man. | 以这个人为首 |
| 703 | 他被称作Roynek Swannapool(英语:Roynek Swannapool). | |
| 704 | So it's the one person. | 故为一人. |
| 705 | And firstly, I was sent to London by the defense team | 首先,我被防卫队派去伦敦 |
| 706 | to gather evidence from others, | 从别人那里收集证据, |
| 707 | mainly ANC people who were in exile | 主要是流亡在外的ANC人 |
| 708 | on their treatment while they were in detention | 他们被拘留期间的待遇 |
| 709 | in South Africa. | 南非 |
| 710 | And I then came back with a large number of affidavits | 然后我带着大量的宣誓书回来 |
| 711 | all notarized and so on. | 所有公证等等。 |
| 712 | And one of the people I interviewed was Albie Sachs. | 我采访的其中一个人是阿尔比·萨克斯。 |
| 713 | And actually it was his wife at that time | 那时其实是他的妻子 |
| 714 | who had been knocked about, hair pulled | 被打倒,头发被拉 |
| 715 | and so on by the security police. | 安全警察也这么说 |
| 716 | So I came back with that set of affidavits | 所以我带着那一套证词回来 |
| 717 | and I had the affidavits of 10 of my clients, | 我有我10个委托人的证词 |
| 718 | 10 of whom had been charged | 其中10人被指控 |
| 719 | and each of them had suffered horrendous abuse | 他们都曾遭受凌辱, |
| 720 | and even sexual violence. | 甚至是性暴力 |
| 721 | I used those affidavits to bring an application | 我用那些宣誓书来申请 |
| 722 | in my husband's name. | 以我丈夫的名义 |
| 723 | I could do that because I had his power of attorney. | 我可以这么做 因为我有他的委托书 |
| 724 | We brought the application in the Natal division | 我们把申请带到了纳塔尔分局 |
| 725 | of the high court and we asked for an interdict, | 高庭和我们要求禁止, |
| 726 | an order preventing the security police | 禁止治安警察的命令; |
| 727 | from using any forms of torture against him. | 禁止对他使用任何形式的酷刑。 |
| 728 | And we supported that application | 我们支持这个应用 |
| 729 | with all these affidavits. | 所有这些宣誓书。 |
| 730 | And of course the police were furious. | 当然警察很生气 |
| 731 | They said they never use torture, no. | 他们说他们从来不使用酷刑,没有。 |
| 732 | And that there was no need for this order. | 而此令亦不须. |
| 733 | So there were some discussions and so on with the judge. | 于是与法官进行了一些讨论等等. |
| 734 | And the judge then gave an order | 然后法官下达命令 |
| 735 | where the security police prohibited | 在保安警察禁止的情况下 |
| 736 | from using any forms of torture. | 不使用任何形式的酷刑。 |
| 737 | And then the judge said, what's the point of this order | 然后法官说 这命令有什么意义 |
| 738 | if my husband doesn't know about it? | 如果我丈夫不知道的话? |
| 739 | So he ordered that the sheriff should go and serve it on him. | 所以他命令警长去给他服务 |
| 740 | And of course he by then had been held for many months | 当然,那时他已经被关押了好几个月 |
| 741 | in terrible conditions in Petersburg, | 在彼得堡的恶劣条件下 |
| 742 | one of these really old cells. | 一个很老的细胞 |
| 743 | And this swan pool was in the courtroom all the time, | 而这个天鹅池 一直在法庭上, |
| 744 | the head of the security police. | 安全警察的负责人 |
| 745 | He would boast to me, | 他会吹嘘我, |
| 746 | yeah, we put your husband in the worst cell possible. | 对,我们把你丈夫关在最烂的牢房里 |
| 747 | So my husband said when his door opened | 所以我丈夫说,当他的门打开 |
| 748 | and somebody threw this, he realized it was the sheriff. | 有人扔了这个 他意识到是警长干的 |
| 749 | He just burst out crying. | 他刚刚哭了出来。 |
| 750 | And he said they never touched him after that. | 他说之后他们再也没有碰过他 |
| 751 | The outcome of this, the part that I'm proud of, | 结果,我引以为豪的部分, |
| 752 | of course I didn't succeed in getting my husband out. | 我当然没有成功救出我丈夫 |
| 753 | That was my goal, didn't get that. | 这是我的目标,没有得到。 |
| 754 | But we made sure that these affidavits | 但我们确保这些宣誓证词 |
| 755 | reached the anti-apartheid movement in New York. | 到了纽约的反种族隔离运动。 |
| 756 | And they and the ANC had observer status. | 他们和ANC都有观察员地位。 |
| 757 | They raised to, you know, | 他们长大了,你知道, |
| 758 | and this was the first time they had hard evidence | 这是他们第一次有确凿的证据 |
| 759 | of torture happening and it's official public documents | 这是官方的公开文件 |
| 760 | they filed in the court case. | 他们在法庭上立案 |
| 761 | They were able to use that and they asked for two things. | 他们可以使用它,他们要求两件事。 |
| 762 | One, sanctions against apartheid South Africa, | 一,制裁种族隔离 南非, |
| 763 | but Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher refused to do that. | 但罗纳德·里根和玛格丽特·撒切尔拒绝这么做. |
| 764 | And years later when I was High Commissioner | 几年后当我是高级专员 |
| 765 | for Human Rights from 2008, | 2008年起, |
| 766 | I had the opportunity to tell the Security Council members, | 我有机会告诉安全理事会成员, |
| 767 | this is what two of you did. | 你们两个就是这么做的 |
| 768 | You used your veto. | 你用过否决权 |
| 769 | You used your veto to support racism | 你用否决权支持种族主义 |
| 770 | when racism is one of the cardinal principles | 当种族主义是主要原则之一时 |
| 771 | that the UN prohibits. | 这是联合国禁止的。 |
| 772 | Anyway, that's the end story. | 总之 这就是结局 |
| 773 | The second thing that the South Africa asked the GA, | 第二件事南非问大会, |
| 774 | the General Assembly is to have a convention | 大会将有一项公约 |
| 775 | against torture. | 禁止酷刑。 |
| 776 | And that's how we got a convention against torture | 这就是我们如何得到一个反对酷刑的大会 |
| 777 | which now benefits all victims, all of the world. | 它现在惠及所有受害者, 全世界。 |
| 778 | And as High Commissioner, | 作为高级专员, |
| 779 | I had a lot to do with the Committee Against Torture. | 我和禁止酷刑委员会有很多关系 |
| 780 | These are committees set up by the UN of experts | 这些都是由联合国设立的专家委员会。 |
| 781 | who receive complaints, do the actual investigations, | 接受投诉的,进行实际调查; |
| 782 | make recommendations to states. | 向各国提出建议。 |
| 783 | So many, many mechanisms to expose torture | 如此之多,许多揭露酷刑的机制 |
| 784 | grew out of that one little act. | 从那个小动作里长大的 |
| 785 | You know, I'm sitting and listening to you | 我坐着听你的 |
| 786 | and wishing that we could spend a week together, | 希望我们能共度一周 |
| 787 | that we could have a series or a mini series | 我们可以有系列或迷你系列 |
| 788 | just on our conversation today. | 就在我们今天的谈话中 |
| 789 | Because when you talk about specific cases | 因为当你谈论具体案件时 |
| 790 | and the consequences and the judgments in these cases, | 以及这些案件的后果和判决, |
| 791 | having such far reaching consequences | 有着如此深远的后果 |
| 792 | that affect our law even today, it's just mind boggling. | 影响我们法律的,即使是今天, 它只是心灵摇摆。 |
| 793 | This application and affidavit that you're talking about | 这份申请和宣誓书,你说的 |
| 794 | in relation to your husband, | 关于你丈夫 |
| 795 | but also with respect to the Terrorism Act | 以及《反恐怖主义法》 |
| 796 | are now part of a very important repository, | 现在是一个非常重要的仓库的一部分, |
| 797 | the UN in the way that the UN documented | 以联合国记录的方式 |
| 798 | and documents the crime of apartheid in our country. | 并记录我国种族隔离罪行。 |
| 799 | When you talk about the way torture is perceived | 当你谈论 如何看待酷刑 |
| 800 | in the world from a jurisprudential point of view | 从判例的角度 |
| 801 | or rape as a weapon of war, essentially, | 或强奸作为一种战争武器, |
| 802 | you know, as a jurisprudential tool, | 你知道,作为一个法学工具, |
| 803 | it's just absolutely stunning, mind boggling | 它只是绝对令人惊叹, 心灵摇摆 |
| 804 | and awe-inspiring. | 和敬畏的激励。 |
| 805 | I wanna, as we come to the closing moments, | 我想,当我们来到结束的时刻, |
| 806 | and I had all these ideas, | 我有这些想法, |
| 807 | it was grand architecture for our conversation today, | 这是伟大的建筑 我们今天的对话, |
| 808 | but I'm very satisfied that we have been able to go | 但我很满意我们已经可以走了 |
| 809 | into some of the detail and the meat | 进入一些细节和肉类 |
| 810 | around some of your key appointments. | 围绕你的一些关键约会。 |
| 811 | You talked about, you know, all of the awards | 你说过,你知道,所有的奖项 |
| 812 | and the recognition that you've received. | 以及你得到的承认 |
| 813 | If I'm looking at my CV of you, | 如果我在看我的简历, |
| 814 | it runs into more than a page. | 超过一页 |
| 815 | Your affiliations run into more than a page | 您的隶属关系超过一页 |
| 816 | and not all of them are in South Africa. | 他们并不是都在南非 |
| 817 | A lot of them are global. | 其中许多是全球性的。 |
| 818 | This is a life and a career that's just been phenomenal | 这是一个生活 和事业 刚刚是惊人的 |
| 819 | and it's taken you all over the world. | 它带你遍及全世界。 |
| 820 | And I suppose as we begin to close, | 我想当我们开始关闭, |
| 821 | one contemporary issue I want to bring up, though, | 但我想提的当代问题 |
| 822 | before we get into some of the personal | 在我们进入一些个人 |
| 823 | is this ongoing issue of South Africa. | 是南非的这个持续问题。 |
| 824 | You know, that in government and in the opposition, | 在政府和反对派中 |
| 825 | there's a lot of talk about the country's reluctance | 有很多关于国家不愿意的说法 |
| 826 | to arrest Russian President Vladimir Putin | 逮捕俄罗斯总统普京 |
| 827 | when he comes to South Africa later this year | 当他今年晚些时候来到南非 |
| 828 | to attend the BRIC Summit. | 出席金砖国家首脑会议。 |
| 829 | And it's making us reevaluate, | 这让我们重新评价, |
| 830 | or the conversation is reevaluating, you know, | 或者谈话在重新评价 |
| 831 | being a signatory to the Rome Statute and the ICC. | 成为《罗马规约》和国际刑事法院的签署国。 |
| 832 | What are your thoughts on that | 你对此有什么想法 |
| 833 | and how would be the right way to navigate this? | 如何是正确的方式 导航这个? |
| 834 | Let me begin to say that, you know, | 让我开始说,你知道, |
| 835 | while I was finishing my term in Russia | 当我在俄罗斯结束任期时 |
| 836 | as a judge on the Rwandan court, | 作为卢旺达法院的法官, |
| 837 | it just touched me so much that people in South Africa, | 它只是触动了我这么多 在南非的人, |
| 838 | various institutions, other judges had nominated me | 各种机构,其他法官提名我 |
| 839 | to be a judge on that international criminal court. | 担任国际刑事法院的法官。 |
| 840 | And so I was South Africa's nominee | 所以我是南非提名的 |
| 841 | and was voted, served as a judge on the court. | 并被投票,担任法庭法官. |
| 842 | So I do know the law properly | 所以我对法律很了解 |
| 843 | and how it functioned there. | 以及它如何在那里运作。 |
| 844 | I have two answers on this question | 这个问题我有两个答案 |
| 845 | of the arrest warrant issued by the ICC prosecutor | 国际刑事法院检察官签发的逮捕令 |
| 846 | against Putin. | 反对普京。 |
| 847 | Firstly, that, you know, | 首先,你知道的,我们... |
| 848 | we are urging the prosecutor to attend to other matters | 我们正敦促检察官处理其他事项 |
| 849 | because he has to be impartial and treat matters equally. | 因为他必须公正 公平对待事情 |
| 850 | He's sitting with complaints related | 他坐着抱怨 |
| 851 | to Palestine and Afghanistan. | 对巴勒斯坦和阿富汗的访问。 |
| 852 | And of course we like the speed with which he acted | 当然,我们喜欢他的行动速度 |
| 853 | in respect of the situation in Ukraine. | 关于乌克兰局势的报告 |
| 854 | You should do the same with the others | 你也应该和别人一样 |
| 855 | because he is an international prosecutor. | 因为他是国际检察官 |
| 856 | Secondly, a legal answer is, | 第二,一个法律答案是, |
| 857 | our courts have already determined | 我们的法院已经决定 |
| 858 | that South Africa has an obligation under its own laws | 南非根据本国法律有义务: |
| 859 | and under the Rome statute to arrest anyone | 根据《罗马规约》逮捕任何人 |
| 860 | who's in the country and who is being indicted | 谁在这个国家,谁正在被起诉 |
| 861 | by the international criminal court. | 由国际刑事法院裁决。 |
| 862 | So the law is clear. | 故法界清净. |
| 863 | If he comes, then following the al-Bashir, | 如果他来了,然后跟随巴希尔, |
| 864 | the leader of Sudan, | 苏丹领导人, |
| 865 | where South Africa made the mistake of not arresting him. | 南非犯了不逮捕他的错误。 |
| 866 | So the best solution is we must hope | 所以最好的解决办法是,我们必须希望 |
| 867 | that Putin does not come to South Africa. | 普京不会来南非 |
| 868 | However, I do empathize with the reasoning | 不过,我确实同情这个推理 |
| 869 | of developing countries that the Ukraine situation | 乌克兰局势中发展中国家 |
| 870 | is not really a developing country situation. | 并不是真正的发展中国家的情况。 |
| 871 | We need to know who, what triggered this war? | 我们需要知道是谁引发了这场战争? |
| 872 | Why did President Putin attack? | 普京总统为何发动攻击? |
| 873 | And when there's an ongoing violence going on, | 当暴力不断发生时 |
| 874 | how do you pick on prosecuting the one side | 你如何起诉一方? |
| 875 | and not the other? | 而不是另一个? |
| 876 | I was the high commissioner who set up | 我是设置 |
| 877 | the human rights office in Ukraine | 乌克兰人权办事处 |
| 878 | when the Crimea invasion happened. | 当克里米亚入侵时 |
| 879 | And that office is still functioning. | 该办公室仍在运作。 |
| 880 | And we submitted reports after reports, | 我们提交了报告之后, |
| 881 | my team on the ground, | 我的团队在地面上, |
| 882 | on violations of human rights by both sides, | 双方侵犯人权的情况, |
| 883 | by the Russian fighters who live in Ukraine | 住在乌克兰的俄罗斯战士 |
| 884 | supported by the Russian government, | 在俄罗斯政府的支持下, |
| 885 | as well as Ukrainians. | 还有乌克兰人 |
| 886 | So there's always two sides to the case. | 故案总有两面. |
| 887 | We would like, I think there's some difficulty | 我们希望,我觉得有些困难 |
| 888 | in deciding while a conflict is going on, | 在决定冲突发生时 |
| 889 | which side you want to support or name as perpetrators. | 你想支持哪一边 或指名作恶 |
| 890 | But legally, it's very clear. | 但从法律上讲,这是非常明确的. |
| 891 | We have an obligation to arrest anyone | 我们有义务逮捕任何人 |
| 892 | who's been indicted by the ICC and who's in your territory. | 被国际刑警起诉的人 还有在你的领地里的人 |
| 893 | That's the law. | 这是法律。 |
| 894 | Sorry to give you a long answer | 抱歉给你一个很长的答案 |
| 895 | because I've been asked this so often. | 因为我经常被问到这个 |
| 896 | The Western countries and media, | 西方国家和媒体, |
| 897 | they join this presumption | 他们加入这个假设 |
| 898 | that this is really a priority issue for the whole world. | 这确实是全世界的一个优先问题。 |
| 899 | Whereas in that, I raise the fact | 而在那,我提出的事实 |
| 900 | that the underbelly of Western prejudices | 西方偏见的内幕 |
| 901 | COVID期间出来了 | |
| 902 | Our President Ramaphosa had to make a strong statement | 我们的拉马福萨总统不得不发表强烈声明 |
| 903 | on the fact that rich countries such as the USA | 美国等富国 |
| 904 | were hoarding medicines that we needed very much in Africa. | 囤积着我们在非洲非常需要的药品。 |
| 905 | So that's what I mean. | 这就是我的意思。 |
| 906 | I just come from a conference in Nairobi, actually, | 我刚刚从内罗毕的一个会议,其实, |
| 907 | where the whole discussion was on double standards. | 整个讨论涉及双重标准。 |
| 908 | I would love to have another conversation with you | 我想和你再谈一次 |
| 909 | on double standards, | 关于双重标准, |
| 910 | because this is also part of the discourse | 因为这也是其中的一部分 |
| 911 | that's happening in South Africa now | 现在在南非发生的事情 |
| 912 | as we reevaluate ourselves, not only from the outside in, | 当我们重新评价自己, 不仅从外部, |
| 913 | but from the inside out in terms of how we view | 但从内心来看我们的看法 |
| 914 | how the rest of the world views us | 世界其他地方对我们的看法 |
| 915 | and how our priorities should be shaped | 以及如何确定我们的优先事项 |
| 916 | and where the external agendas sit | 以及外部议程的位置 |
| 917 | in relation to our priorities as a country. | 与我们作为一个国家的优先事项有关。 |
| 918 | In closing, Judge, because I really do wish, | 最后,法官,因为我真的希望, |
| 919 | and we definitely have another opportunity to talk, | 我们肯定有另一个机会谈谈, |
| 920 | but I want to end with your words of advice, | 但我想以你的忠告结束 |
| 921 | both to the public who look to the law | 都是为了法律 |
| 922 | as the final arbiter in the pursuit of justice, | 作为追求正义的最后仲裁人, |
| 923 | and justice is slow in South Africa on many an occasion. | 南非的正义在很多场合都很缓慢。 |
| 924 | A lot of people can't afford fancy lawyers, | 很多人买不起高贵的律师 |
| 925 | but they look to the court to resolve their issues. | 但他们希望法庭解决他们的问题。 |
| 926 | What are your words of encouragement to them | 你对他们有何鼓励 |
| 927 | and to those who aspire to be just like you? | 和那些渴望像你一样的人吗? |
| 928 | Yes, I think we really need judicial reform, | 是的,我认为我们真的需要 司法改革, |
| 929 | and we seem to be following the colonialist model | 我们似乎在遵循殖民主义模式 |
| 930 | in rendering justice and providing education. | 在伸张正义和提供教育方面。 |
| 931 | You remember that the students were on the streets saying, | 你还记得那些学生在街上说 |
| 932 | do the poor not have a right to education? | 穷人没有受教育的权利吗? |
| 933 | And that poster reminded me that how much | 那张海报让我想起了 |
| 934 | is that we've imbibed from the colonial system | 我们从殖民体系中走出来 |
| 935 | that it's the rich who can access doctors, | 有钱人能找医生 |
| 936 | universities, and justice. | 大学和司法。 |
| 937 | So there's something seriously wrong | 所以有严重问题 |
| 938 | that we all have to have a conversation. | 我们都得谈谈 |
| 939 | I'm very glad that we now have social media | 很高兴现在有了社交媒体 |
| 940 | where people are expressing their views | 人们表达自己观点的地方 |
| 941 | and asking questions. | 问问题 |
| 942 | So we have to preserve the independence of the judiciary. | 因此,我们必须维护司法机构的独立性。 |
| 943 | People all over the world admire our constitution | 全世界的人都钦佩我们的宪法 |
| 944 | and our independent judiciary, | 和我们独立的司法机构, |
| 945 | and therefore we're still safeguarding | 因此,我们仍在保护 |
| 946 | the rule of law in our country. | 我国的法治。 |
| 947 | All of these we must preserve, | 所有这些我们必须保存, |
| 948 | but we also have to address the anger on the streets. | 但我们也必须解决街头的愤怒。 |
| 949 | And all over the world, this is what's happening. | 全世界都这样 |
| 950 | The rich are getting more and more rich and powerful, | 富人越来越富强 |
| 951 | and the poor are getting poorer. | 穷人越来越穷。 |
| 952 | And let me say that in Africa, | 让我说,在非洲, |
| 953 | I've been to very many countries. | 我去过许多国家 |
| 954 | They look to us to set the example to become a leader. | 他们期待我们树立榜样,成为领导人。 |
| 955 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 956 | Because we have this good constitution | 因为我们有这么好的宪法 |
| 957 | and a good independent court, | 和一个独立的法庭, |
| 958 | and we've had no conflict during our democracy. | 我们民主时期没有冲突 |
| 959 | When I walked on the streets of Arusha in my early days, | 我早年在阿鲁沙街上散步时 |
| 960 | these children would run after me | 这些孩子会追我 |
| 961 | and say, Mandela, Bafana, Bafana. | 说 曼德拉 巴法纳 巴法纳 |
| 962 | And other judges said to me, | 其他法官对我说, |
| 963 | we know you South Africans, you work very hard. | 我们认识你们南非人 你们很努力工作 |
| 964 | So let's live up to that motto and set a good example | 因此,让我们遵守这个格言,并树立一个好榜样 |
| 965 | and set our country right. | 并使我们的国家正确。 |
| 966 | We're really sliding away fast. | 我们真的走得很快 |
| 967 | People are really unhappy. | 人们真的不高兴。 |
| 968 | When you hear ordinary people saying | 当你听到普通人说 |
| 969 | we were better off under apartheid, | 在种族隔离统治下,我们生活得更好 |
| 970 | we have to pay attention to that. | 我们必须注意这一点。 |
| 971 | Something is seriously wrong. | 有点不对劲 |
| 972 | Thank you very much for all your questions, Iman, | 非常感谢你所有的问题,伊曼 |
| 973 | and for giving me this opportunity. | 并给我这个机会。 |
| 974 | It's been such a delight. | 很高兴见到你 |
| 975 | And I really want to visit you, | 我真的很想来看你 |
| 976 | hopefully see you again in person one day soon. | 希望有一天能再次亲眼见到你 |
| 977 | But I know that you're also very, very busy. | 但我知道你也非常非常忙着 |
| 978 | And it also is just so wonderful | 这也太美妙了 |
| 979 | to see a fabulous woman who is still at work | 去看一个仍然在工作的女人 |
| 980 | after all of these years, actually, | 这些年来,实际上, |
| 981 | 60 year career behind you in the law. | 法界后六十年事业. |
| 982 | And we thank you for sharing your sentiments with us today. | 我们感谢你今天与我们分享你的感情。 |
| 983 | It has been uplifting and inspirational. | 它一直在振奋和鼓舞人心。 |
| 984 | And we just wish you all the best in terms of your health, | 我们只是祝愿你身体健康 |
| 985 | but also in terms of your future accolades and successes. | 以及你未来的成就 |
| 986 | Thank you so much, Judge Navi Pillay. | 非常谢谢你,纳维·皮莱法官 |
| 987 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 988 | That's a lovely message. | 这是一个可爱的信息。 |
| 989 | Thank you very much. | 谢谢 |
| 990 | You've been listening to Legal Luminaries, | 你一直在听法律界的流言 |
| 991 | a 由Juta和Jacaranda FM制作的专辑原创播客。 | |
| 992 | I'm Imandra Petty. | 我是伊曼陀拉・佩蒂 |
| 993 | 在jacarandafm.com找到更多的剧集. | |
| 994 | Just click on Jackpot. | 点击大奖赛 |
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