为什么你并不真正存在｜诺贝尔顶级科学家辩论
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:01 | Consciousness is the one thing in this universe that actually can't be an illusion, right? | 意识是宇宙中唯一不能成为幻觉的东西,对吧? |
| 0:05 | I mean, even if we're in the matrix, this is just a simulation. | 我的意思是,即使我们在矩阵中, 这只是一个模拟。 |
| 0:08 | If we're confused about everything, if our physics is fake physics because we're not | 如果我们对一切感到困惑, 如果我们的物理是假的物理,因为我们不是 |
| 0:13 | in touch with the base layer of reality, if this is all a dream, you know, if you're the | 如果这一切都是梦,你知道,如果你是 |
| 0:17 | only person who exists and we're all in your dream, no matter how confused you could be | 无论你多么困惑 |
| 0:21 | about the nature of reality, one thing you can't be confused about is that something | 关于现实的本质, 一件事你不能混淆 的东西 |
| 0:26 | seems to be happening and that seeming is the fact of consciousness. | 似乎正在发生,这似乎是意识的事实。 |
| 0:37 | Should we give up the idea of distinct selves as simply incoherence? | 我们是否应该放弃彼此截然不同的想法,认为这纯粹是不一致的? |
| 0:44 | Well, first let me say it's a pleasure to almost be there with you. | 好吧,首先让我说,它是一个乐趣 几乎和你在一起。 |
| 0:47 | It sounds like I'm escaping the sweltering heat, but it's an honor to be invited. | 听起来我正在逃过寒热之灾 但被邀请是我的荣幸 |
展开字幕全文（431 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Consciousness is the one thing in this universe that actually can't be an illusion, right? | 意识是宇宙中唯一不能成为幻觉的东西,对吧? |
| 2 | I mean, even if we're in the matrix, this is just a simulation. | 我的意思是,即使我们在矩阵中, 这只是一个模拟。 |
| 3 | If we're confused about everything, if our physics is fake physics because we're not | 如果我们对一切感到困惑, 如果我们的物理是假的物理,因为我们不是 |
| 4 | in touch with the base layer of reality, if this is all a dream, you know, if you're the | 如果这一切都是梦,你知道,如果你是 |
| 5 | only person who exists and we're all in your dream, no matter how confused you could be | 无论你多么困惑 |
| 6 | about the nature of reality, one thing you can't be confused about is that something | 关于现实的本质, 一件事你不能混淆 的东西 |
| 7 | seems to be happening and that seeming is the fact of consciousness. | 似乎正在发生,这似乎是意识的事实。 |
| 8 | Should we give up the idea of distinct selves as simply incoherence? | 我们是否应该放弃彼此截然不同的想法,认为这纯粹是不一致的? |
| 9 | Well, first let me say it's a pleasure to almost be there with you. | 好吧,首先让我说,它是一个乐趣 几乎和你在一起。 |
| 10 | It sounds like I'm escaping the sweltering heat, but it's an honor to be invited. | 听起来我正在逃过寒热之灾 但被邀请是我的荣幸 |
| 11 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 12 | Well, there's one sense of the term self and I believe it's the most common one and it's the | 嗯,有一个感觉 这个术语的自我, 我相信这是最常见的一个,它是 |
| 13 | sense that we feel subjectively, most of us, most of the time, which I think is genuinely | 感觉我们感到主观,我们大多数人,大多数时候, 我认为这是真正的 |
| 14 | an illusion and leads to other illusions, cognitive and moral. | 一种幻觉 并导致其他幻觉 认知和道德 |
| 15 | It's the other side | 是另一边 |
| 16 | of the coin of the sense of free will that puzzles so many people. | 自由意志感的硬币 令很多人困惑 |
| 17 | So, you know, I would | 所以,你知道,我会 |
| 18 | ask you to just notice this feeling in yourself if you have it. | 如果你有这种感觉 请你注意一下 |
| 19 | And if you're like 99% of people, | 如果你像99%的人, |
| 20 | you'll get this sense that you feel that there is a subject, a kind of unchanging point from which | 你会有这种感觉,你会觉得 有一个主题, 一种不变的点 |
| 21 | you notice experience, which doesn't leave you merely identical to experience. | 你注意到了经验, 这并不让你仅仅与经验相同。 |
| 22 | Rather, | 相反, |
| 23 | you feel like you're appropriating your experience, you're having an experience. | 你感觉你正在占用你的经验, 你有一个经验。 |
| 24 | There's a place from which you can aim your attention at the various objects of experience. | 有一个地方,你可以把注意力集中在各种体验的对象上. |
| 25 | And most, if not all, of your experience has this subject-object character where you're | 大部分,如果不是全部,你的经验 有这个主题 -对象性 你在哪里 |
| 26 | the subject, noticing sights and sounds and sensations and thoughts and moods. | 注意目光、声音、感觉、思想和心情 |
| 27 | And that subject is an illusion. | 而那个话题是一种幻觉。 |
| 28 | And we can know that really from two sides. | 我们从两边可以知道这一点。 |
| 29 | First of all, | 首先,我们... |
| 30 | from the third person's side, neurologically, it makes no sense. | 从第三人称的侧面, 从神经学上讲, 这没有任何意义。 |
| 31 | There's no place in the brain | 大脑里没有地方 |
| 32 | for your ego to be hiding. | 让你的自我被隐藏。 |
| 33 | But more importantly, I think from the first person's side, | 但更重要的是,我认为第一人称方面, |
| 34 | subjectively, as a matter of direct experience, you can look for this sense of self, you can look | 主观上,作为一个直接经历的问题,你可以寻找这种自我感,你可以寻找 |
| 35 | for the eye in the middle of experience, and fail to find it in a way that is conclusive. | 无法以决定性的方式找到它 |
| 36 | And this | 还有这个 |
| 37 | effort goes by, you know, many modes and many names. | 努力通过,你知道, 许多模式和名称。 |
| 38 | I mean, this is something that | 我的意思是,这是的东西 |
| 39 | meditation in various practices directly targets. | 冥想各种做法,直接针对目标。 |
| 40 | People using psychedelics have had this experience, | 使用迷幻药的人有过这种经历, |
| 41 | but there's a vast testimony to the perturbability and the tangency of this sense of self. | 但对于这种自我意识的可扰性和不切实际性,却有大量的证明. |
| 42 | And I would actually say that most people, even if they're not meditating or taking psychedelics, | 我实际上会说,大多数人, 即使他们没有冥想 或服用迷幻药, |
| 43 | they're continually losing this sense of self without noticing it, which is to say you can | 他们不断失去这种自我意识 没有注意到它,也就是说你可以 |
| 44 | lose yourself in your work, you can lose yourself in athletic performance, you can lose yourself just | 在你的作品中失去自我, 在运动中失去自我, 你就会失去自我 |
| 45 | in an outgoing act of attention, where you actually, the clear sense of self becomes kind | 在一种发泄的注意行为中, 在那里,你实际上, 明显的自我感变得善良 |
| 46 | of retrospective. | 追溯性。 |
| 47 | When you take stock of yourself, you then notice it. | 当你评估自己,然后你注意到它。 |
| 48 | But it is continually | 但它是持续的 |
| 49 | interrupted, I would say. | 我想是被打断了 |
| 50 | But to interrupt it consciously as an act of contemplation | 但自觉地打断它 是一种思考行为 |
| 51 | is very different, because then you can actually be free of it, more or less, whenever you | 非常不同,因为那样你就可以 或多或少地摆脱它,当你 |
| 52 | remember to pay attention. | 记住要注意 |
| 53 | And that's a very different moving through life. | 人生的动向非常不同 |
| 54 | Let's bring Roger in here. | 我们把罗杰带来 |
| 55 | Roger, does this idea of distinct selves make sense, or is it an | 罗杰,这种自我认同的想法有道理吗? |
| 56 | incoherent notion? | 不一致的想法? |
| 57 | And just to bring in Sam's point from the get-go there as well, does it make sense | 只要把山姆的点 从那里去,这是有道理的 |
| 58 | to have an illusory self, or is that illusion a very instance of the thing which we typically take | 或者这种幻觉是我们通常所接受的 |
| 59 | to be the... | 成为... |
| 60 | I mean, I regard the question of self as all tied up intimately with the issue of | 我的意思是,我认为 自我的问题 都紧密地与问题 |
| 61 | consciousness. | 意识。 |
| 62 | And if you weren't conscious, that concept wouldn't even be discussed. | 如果你没有意识, 这一概念甚至不会被讨论。 |
| 63 | But there are, I remember reading a long time ago now, example of a patient who had | 但有,我记得很久以前读过, 现在,一个病人的例子,谁有 |
| 64 | serious epilepsy or something, and they performed an operation, which seemed to me pretty extreme, | 严重的癫痫或什么的, 他们做了一个手术, 这在我看来相当极端, |
| 65 | of dividing the brain into two separate halves. | 将大脑分成两半 |
| 66 | I don't know how separate it was, too. | 我不知道它是如何分开,太。 |
| 67 | There's | 还有 |
| 68 | no doubt it was the cerebrum and not the cerebellum. | 无疑是脑震荡 而不是脑震荡 |
| 69 | But still, and this person almost considered | 这个人几乎被考虑 |
| 70 | herself, or maybe people considered, that they became two separate people, in a sense. | 自己,或也许人们认为, 他们变成了两个不同的人, 从某种意义上说。 |
| 71 | So that it did seem to be tied up with the way the brain is organized, and that with this split | 所以它似乎和大脑的排列方式有关 并且随着这种分裂 |
| 72 | brain person, they could do one thing with one hand and the other side wouldn't know what was | 大脑的人,他们可以用一只手做一件事 而另一只手不知道是什么 |
| 73 | going on. | 继续 |
| 74 | It struck me as rather... Well, the whole thing is rather awful. | 让我觉得... 嗯,整个事情是相当糟糕的。 |
| 75 | But apart from that, | 但除此以外, |
| 76 | does the presumably single self that this person had previously, | 这个人曾经有过的... |
| 77 | what has happened to that when it becomes... | 当它变成... |
| 78 | Does it become two selves later on? | 以后会变成两个自己吗? |
| 79 | I have no idea. | 我不知道,我还不知道 |
| 80 | So | 这么说 |
| 81 | I'm just filled with lots of question marks when I think about this problem. | 我只是在想这个问题的时候 有很多疑问 |
| 82 | The question of | 问题 |
| 83 | consciousness is bad enough. | 意识已经够糟的了 |
| 84 | It seems that if this person with a split brain in this experiment... | 似乎如果这个在实验中大脑分裂的人... |
| 85 | I don't think it was an experiment. | 我觉得这不是个实验 |
| 86 | I'm not sure. | 我不太确定 说不定 |
| 87 | It's supposed to be a treatment. | 应作是治. |
| 88 | If this person was considered to have two selves at that stage, | 如果这个人在那个阶段被认为有两个人 |
| 89 | well, it raises a difficult question as to what you mean by the self and consciousness and | 好吧,这提出了一个难题 关于你是什么意思 自我和意识和 |
| 90 | presumably the memories of the past were shared by the people, if I can use that term. | 如果能用这个词的话,人们大概都记得过去。 |
| 91 | I'm not | 我没有 |
| 92 | sure. | 当然 |
| 93 | I don't know the descriptions I read of the situation were detailed enough for me to form a | 我不知道我读到的描述 已经足够详细 我组成一个 |
| 94 | real view about it. | 真实的视野。 |
| 95 | But it did seem to me that it has bearing on this question. | 但在我看来,这确实涉及到这个问题。 |
| 96 | And it's one of the | 这是其中之一 |
| 97 | experiments which I know of. | 我知道的实验 |
| 98 | It's actually not even an experiment as far as I know. | 据我所知,这甚至都不是实验。 |
| 99 | Treatment, I guess it was, that I know of which have some bearing on the question. | 治疗,我想是的,我知道 这个问题有些关系。 |
| 100 | Of course, | 当然 |
| 101 | you could imagine somebody to be unconscious. | 你可以想象有人会失去知觉 |
| 102 | Could one side of the brain be unconscious as | 大脑的某一边会不会失去知觉 |
| 103 | the... Well, then you have to ask a dolphin, I suppose, because the dolphins go to sleep, | 那你得问海豚 因为海豚睡觉了 |
| 104 | one side and the other side separately. | 一方与另一方分别. |
| 105 | And to a dolphin, that must be a strange effect. | 对海豚来说 这一定是个奇怪的效果 |
| 106 | I mean, | 我是说... |
| 107 | they're still awake all the time, but yet being in sense having a different self. | 他们总是醒着,但是在意义上却有不同的自我. |
| 108 | I have no idea. | 我不知道,我还不知道 |
| 109 | I'm just raising these points. | 我只是提高这些点。 |
| 110 | So the scientific issues which might have relevance to the general | 因此,科学问题 可能与一般 |
| 111 | question. | 问题。 |
| 112 | Can I ask you this just before we bring in Sophie? | 我能先问你这个吗? |
| 113 | So you raised the split brain | 所以,你提起了分裂的大脑 |
| 114 | case as a problem of split someone's brain, either both sides of them, neither side of the | 说成是把一个人的大脑分开的问题 不管是两边还是两边 |
| 115 | brain is them or one of the other is them. | 大脑是他们,或者另一个是他们。 |
| 116 | And that seems like a big philosophical problem. | 这似乎是一个巨大的哲学问题。 |
| 117 | If your view is that ourselves are identical to our consciousness. | 如果你认为我们和我们的意识完全一样 |
| 118 | I just want to ask you this | 我只想问你这个 |
| 119 | before we bring Sophie in is, do you take the self to be identical to a stream of consciousness? | 在我们把苏菲带进来之前 你是否认为自己和意识流一样? |
| 120 | Or is it more of a capacity to be conscious, which we're identical to? | 或更是觉悟之能力,与我们同乎? |
| 121 | Let's see what you mean. | 让我们看看你的意思。 |
| 122 | Does one, so all the conscious experiences up together | 做一个,所以所有的 意识体验在一起 |
| 123 | and make one thing out of it all? | 并做出一件事 这一切? |
| 124 | I think one does, but to what extent is this a feature of | 我认为是的,但在何种程度上,这是 |
| 125 | memory? | 记忆? |
| 126 | Because the memory transcends this and you remember events which took place | 因为记忆超越了这一点,你还记得发生的事情 |
| 127 | before you went to sleep or something. | 在你睡觉之前 |
| 128 | But then when you are asleep, you're still to some degree | 但当你睡着了,你还是在某种程度上 |
| 129 | conscious if you're dreaming. | 如果你在做梦 就会有意识 |
| 130 | And I certainly experienced, I'm not somebody who has a, what | 我当然有经验 我不是一个有 |
| 131 | do they call it? | 他们管它叫什么? |
| 132 | There's a term, lucid dreaming. | 有个术语 明亮的梦 |
| 133 | Lucid, that's right. | 路西德 没错 |
| 134 | Now the only one experience | 现在唯一的经历 |
| 135 | of that nature, which I remember is in my dream, I was walking around in New York and I was | 那种性质,我记得在我的梦里, 我走在纽约,我当时 |
| 136 | turning the wrong way and turning around and getting completely and utterly lost. | 转过身来 彻底迷失方向 |
| 137 | And I didn't know what to do. | 我不知道该怎么办。 |
| 138 | So I went into this store, it's a store because it was America, | 于是我进了这家店 那是一家店 因为那是美国 |
| 139 | into the store and I decided, well, look, if this is a dream, I can walk on the ceiling. | 我决定 如果这是梦 我可以在天花板上走路 |
| 140 | So what I did is walk on the ceiling. | 我所做的就是走在天花板上。 |
| 141 | So I said, yeah, it's a dream. | 所以我说,是的,这是一个梦。 |
| 142 | Could I wake up? | 我能醒来吗? |
| 143 | No, | 没有 |
| 144 | I had a lot of trouble. | 我有很多麻烦 |
| 145 | I don't know the relevance of that. | 我不知道这有什么关系 |
| 146 | Maybe it wasn't a dream. | 可能不是梦 |
| 147 | Maybe you're in | 也许你在 |
| 148 | New York and there's some pretty crazy CCTV footage out there of you walking on the ceiling. | 纽约和一些相当疯狂的闭路电视镜头 在那里你走在天花板上。 |
| 149 | You can speculate about these things. | 你可以猜测这些事情。 |
| 150 | I think I was dreaming to be walking on the ceiling. | 我梦见自己在天花板上走路 |
| 151 | I wouldn't put it past you, Roger, you. | 我不会把它过去你,罗杰,你。 |
| 152 | We have laws against that in America. | 我们在美国有法律禁止 |
| 153 | Sophie, is this idea of multiple self distinct selves within one body an incoherent notion? | Sophie 在一个身体内 多重自我独立的想法 是一个不连贯的概念吗? |
| 154 | I think it's something that definitely requires, as both Sam and Professor Penrose have already | 我认为这绝对需要, 正如山姆和彭罗斯教授已经 |
| 155 | said, that you've got to have some definition of exactly what you mean by that. | 说,你必须有一个定义 确切的你的意思。 |
| 156 | So do we mean | 我们的意思是 |
| 157 | conscious awareness, a sense of being the subject of your experiences or do we mean something that's | 意识意识,一种成为你经历的主题的感觉 或者我们的意思是什么 |
| 158 | like a sense of yourself as a coherent person with sense of identity around that? | 就像你作为一个有身份意识的 连贯的人那样? |
| 159 | We need to define | 我们需要定义 |
| 160 | that. | 那个 |
| 161 | And in the introduction, we were going across several different levels of analysis. | 在导言中,我们跨越了几个不同的分析层次。 |
| 162 | I think it is worth trying to get into that in more detail. | 我认为值得更详细地探讨这个问题。 |
| 163 | I think it's also worth bearing | 我觉得也值得承受 |
| 164 | in mind that you've got that 86 billion brain cells and you were born with almost all of them. | 记住你拥有了860亿个脑细胞, 你出生时几乎都带着这些细胞。 |
| 165 | On the course of every 10 years or so, you get a completely new body except for the hair cells in | 每10年左右 你就会得到一个全新的身体 除了头发细胞 |
| 166 | your ears, the cells in your crystalline lens in your eyes, your egg cells if you're female, | 耳朵 眼睛里晶体镜中的细胞 卵细胞 如果你是女性的话 |
| 167 | and your neurons. | 和你的神经元。 |
| 168 | Everything else is renewed. | 其他一切皆复现. |
| 169 | Everything else is changing. | 其他一切都在变 |
| 170 | So if you look at | 所以,如果你看着 |
| 171 | a photograph of yourself as a baby, none of that person is there anymore except for primarily your | 作为婴儿的你的照片, 除了你之外,没有人在那里了。 |
| 172 | eyes, your ears, and your brain. | 眼睛、耳朵、大脑 |
| 173 | And because that's one of the reasons why you would have, | 因为这就是你为什么要这么做的原因之一 |
| 174 | you know, if you lose your brain aspects of brain function, it will have tremendous impact on | 你知道,如果你失去了大脑功能的大脑方面, 这将对 |
| 175 | how you're able to actually function. | 如何能实际发挥. |
| 176 | But of course, it's also there because that is | 但当然,它也在那里,因为 |
| 177 | where your memories are stored. | 你的记忆被储存在那里。 |
| 178 | They're not being renewed. | 他们不会续约的 |
| 179 | They are stored within that system, | 它们储存在这个系统中, |
| 180 | stored in a very clever way. | 以非常聪明的方式储存。 |
| 181 | And the purpose, I suppose, of as many ideas of what we mean by | 我想,目的 多少想法 我们的意思 |
| 182 | a sense of self or kind of a subjective experience of the world is arising from the function of that | 一种自我感或一种主观体验 产生于世界的功能 |
| 183 | network. | 腾讯网. |
| 184 | And anything that changes in your brain, anything you learn, anything that you remember | 任何改变你大脑的东西 任何你学到的东西 任何你记得的东西 |
| 185 | from today is going to be because that network has remodeled and changed. | 因为这个网络已经改造和改变。 |
| 186 | The brain cells are | 脑细胞是 |
| 187 | talking to each other slightly differently, and that's how we encode information. | 彼此说话有点不同, 这就是我们如何编码信息。 |
| 188 | There isn't | 没有 |
| 189 | anything else. | 别的 |
| 190 | That is the sum total. | 这就是总数。 |
| 191 | It's an enormous structure, but that's what you've got | 这是一个巨大的结构, 但你有 |
| 192 | to learn with and to be you. | 学习和成为你。 |
| 193 | I think the only other thing I'd be interested in thinking about is | 我觉得我唯一感兴趣的是 |
| 194 | selves or a sense of self in terms of your interactions with other people, because we're | 自我或自我感 在你与其他人的互动,因为我们 |
| 195 | social primates. | 社会灵长类动物. |
| 196 | Our lives have meaning largely in the interactions we have with others. | 我们的生活主要体现在我们与其他人的互动中。 |
| 197 | And that requires you not only to have a sense of the idea of other people's sense of selves and how | 这不仅需要你对他人的自我感知 以及对他人的自我感知 |
| 198 | they could be thinking and could be thinking differently from you about things, but also | 他们可能在思考 可能和你不同的思考 事情,但也 |
| 199 | arguably, you need to have a model of how they're seeing you. | 可以说,你需要一个模型 他们如何看到你。 |
| 200 | What is their model of you as a self? | 他们把你当成什么样? |
| 201 | So they're kind of the social elements of this. | 因此,它们是一种社会因素。 |
| 202 | And the big changes. | 而大变化. |
| 203 | I'm a very different person | 我是一个非常不同的人 |
| 204 | if I've been talking on the phone to my mum than I am if I've interacting with the police. | 如果我在电话上和我妈说话 比我和警察说话还要多 |
| 205 | You know, there's many different aspects of my behavior in place. | 我的行为有很多不同方面 |
| 206 | And I got run over by somebody | 我被别人撞倒了 |
| 207 | on a line bike a couple of weeks ago. | 几周前在一列自行车上 |
| 208 | I think you'd remember because I discovered that in my | 我想你会记得 因为我发现在我的 |
| 209 | fight or flight response leans heavily on fight. | 战斗或飞行反应 严重依赖战斗。 |
| 210 | I was very, very cross. | 我非常,非常的过节。 |
| 211 | And I couldn't understand. | 我无法理解 |
| 212 | I could not understand why the woman kept asking if I was okay. | 我不懂为什么那个女人一直问我是否没事 |
| 213 | Why are you just stupid question? | 为什么你只是愚蠢的问题? |
| 214 | You're an idiot. | 你是个白痴。 |
| 215 | You haven't realized how stupid you've been. | 你没意识到你有多蠢 |
| 216 | And I just hang on. | 而我只是坚持。 |
| 217 | Hang on. | 坚持住。 |
| 218 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 219 | She's just run me over with her bike. | 她只是用她的自行车撞我 |
| 220 | She's probably worried that she's hurt me physically. | 她可能担心她伤害了我 |
| 221 | And I just, it took me minutes to get to that. | 我只是,我花了几分钟 得到这一点。 |
| 222 | So, you know, within milliseconds, | 所以,你知道, 在毫秒内, |
| 223 | you can be prompted into a place. | 你可以被刺激到一个地方。 |
| 224 | I'm not normally that unpleasant. | 我通常没那么不愉快 |
| 225 | Normally running into me on a | 通常在路上碰到我 |
| 226 | bike will take you there. | 自行车会带你去那里。 |
| 227 | But that was a very, you know, I was just propelled into a completely | 但是,这是一个非常,你知道的, 我只是被推进到一个完全 |
| 228 | different state of awareness, fully driven by emotion, which is of course a huge element of | 不同的认知状态, 完全由情感驱动, 这当然是一个巨大的要素 |
| 229 | which affects everything that everyone's talked about so far. | 影响着大家至今为止谈论的一切 |
| 230 | Well, it's interesting. | 这很有趣 |
| 231 | The main question we've asked there is whether it's coherent to have | 我们所问的主要问题是 是否有一致性 |
| 232 | distinct selves, but you've all seemed to set out your stall in regards to what it is to be a self | 但你们似乎都把摊位摆到了自己身上 |
| 233 | to begin with. | 开始。 |
| 234 | And if I'm getting this right, Sam thinks that selves are illusory. | 如果我说对了 Sam认为自己是虚幻的 |
| 235 | Roger thinks that | 罗杰认为 |
| 236 | selves are constituted by consciousness. | 自我是由意识构成的。 |
| 237 | And you seem to be saying that it's your brain, the contents | 你似乎在说这是你的大脑,内容 |
| 238 | of your brain, and what other people see you as as well. | 还有别人也看见你 |
| 239 | So Sam, if the self's illusory, | 所以,山姆,如果自己是虚幻的, |
| 240 | how do you make sense of conscious experiences and the contents of those experiences? | 你怎么理解有意识的经验和这些经验的内容? |
| 241 | Where is that conscious experience happening? | 有意识的经历在哪里? |
| 242 | If not mine in myself now and yours in yourself now, | 如果不是我现在,你现在, |
| 243 | where is this this theater of experience on your view? | 这个剧场在哪里? |
| 244 | Well, we should distinguish consciousness from the self. | 我们应该区分意识和自我 |
| 245 | In my view, consciousness | 在我看来,意识 |
| 246 | is the one thing in this universe that actually can't be an illusion, right? | 宇宙中唯一不能成为幻觉的东西,对吧? |
| 247 | I mean, even if we're | 我的意思是,即使我们 |
| 248 | in the matrix, this is just a simulation. | 在矩阵中,这只是一个模拟。 |
| 249 | If we're confused about everything, if our physics is | 如果我们对一切感到困惑 如果我们的物理 |
| 250 | fake physics, because we're not in touch with the base layer of reality. | 假物理,因为我们与现实的基础层没有联系. |
| 251 | If this is all a dream, | 如果这一切都是梦 |
| 252 | you know, if you're the only person who exists and we're all in your dream, no matter how confused | 你知道,如果你是唯一的人 谁存在, 我们都在你的梦里, 无论多么困惑 |
| 253 | you could be about the nature of reality. | 你可能是关于现实的性质。 |
| 254 | One thing you can't be confused about is that something | 一件你无法混淆的事情是... |
| 255 | seems to be happening. | 似乎发生了。 |
| 256 | And that seeming is the fact of consciousness. | 这似乎是意识的事实。 |
| 257 | So I'm quite | 所以,我相当 |
| 258 | convinced that consciousness as a concept, and as a starting point to just epistemologically | 认为意识是一个概念, 并作为一个起点 只是认识 |
| 259 | to know anything is foundational. | 知道什么是基础性的。 |
| 260 | But that doesn't answer the question, how it relates | 但这并不能回答问题,它是如何关联的 |
| 261 | to the physics of things, right? | 对事物的物理,对不对? |
| 262 | So I think the jury is still out on just how to how to solve the | 所以,我认为陪审团 仍在忙着如何解决 |
| 263 | so called mind body problem, which is to relate the fact that there's something that it's like to | 所以叫做心灵问题, 也就是联系一个事实, 即它有类似的东西 |
| 264 | be us with the fact that that much of what is going on in the universe, at least from the outside | 成为我们的事实, 宇宙中发生的很多事情, 至少从外部 |
| 265 | appears not to be conscious or not to be a basis for consciousness. | 似乎没有意识或不是意识的基础。 |
| 266 | And there are many different | 还有许多不同的 |
| 267 | views that people I'm sure have heard about, you know, idealism, physicalism, panpsychism, etc. | 我敢肯定,人们听说过, 你知道,理想主义, 物理主义,泛神论等等。 |
| 268 | I think you can table all of that all the metaphysics there, and talk about the nature | 我想你可以把所有的 元物理,谈论大自然 |
| 269 | of experience, however, and come to realize that this notion of a center in the middle of | 然而,人们认识到,这种关于中心的概念正在形成之中。 |
| 270 | consciousness that is unchanging, this feeling of I this feeling that it's that I'm behind my face, | 意识是不变的, 这种感觉 我的感觉是,我背后我的脸, |
| 271 | that I'm a subject up in the head, in some sense, riding around in my body as a kind of passenger, | 在某种意义上,我是头部的一个主题, 在我的身体里骑着 作为一种乘客, |
| 272 | that really is the default sense that I think most people are referring to when they're talking | 这真的是默认的感觉 我认为大多数人在谈论 |
| 273 | about itself, they don't feel identical to their bodies, they feel like they have bodies, | 对自己来说,他们不觉得 与身体完全一样, 他们觉得自己有身体, |
| 274 | they feel like they feel like they're in relationship to their body, if you have a | 他们觉得他们好像和他们的身体有关系 如果你有 |
| 275 | terrible pain in your knee, you very likely feel like you're up in your head in some basic sense, | 膝盖很痛,你很可能觉得 你头部有些基本意义, |
| 276 | now resisting this pain, right? | 现在抵抗这种痛苦,对不对? |
| 277 | And this the pain is down there, and you wish you wish it would go | 痛苦就在下面 你希望它能过去 |
| 278 | away. | 离开。 |
| 279 | You know, everyone starts there, if you really try to interrogate this contemplatively, | 你知道,每个人都从那里开始, 如果你真的尝试 审问这个陈词滥调, |
| 280 | if you learn to meditate, or you have some other mode of introspection, you do start as this sense | 如果你学会冥想,或者你有其他的反省模式, 你确实从这个意义上开始 |
| 281 | of being a subject in the head that is now trying to figure out what's real about this sense of | 成为脑海中的一个主题 现在试图找出什么是真实的 |
| 282 | self. | 自动。 |
| 283 | It is that sense that is illusory. | 正是这种感觉是虚幻的。 |
| 284 | And it's that sense that to connect with what Roger said | 和罗杰的话联系起来 |
| 285 | about the split brain procedure is that sense that I think very clearly can be divided. | 大脑分裂过程就是这种感觉 我认为可以分化 |
| 286 | I think when | 我想当 |
| 287 | you cut the corpus callosum, which is the series of white matter tracks that connect the two | 也就是连接两个的白色物质轨道 |
| 288 | hemispheres of the brain, that occasionally get severed in a surgery to mitigate grand mal | 大脑的半球,偶尔在手术中被切除 缓解大病 |
| 289 | seizures, when you cut the cut all of those fibers, you are you were certainly dividing | 抓狂了 当你切掉所有的纤维 你当然是分裂 |
| 290 | the access that each half of the brain has to certain phenomenal states, you know, the sight, | 每半个大脑都能够进入 某些惊人的状态 |
| 291 | sensations, and also motor control. | 感觉和运动控制 |
| 292 | And you do almost certainly produce two separate fields | 你几乎肯定 生产两个独立的领域 |
| 293 | of experience, which are not no longer integrated. | 经验,这些经验不再被综合。 |
| 294 | And if, if, and so, as a matter of consciousness, | 如果,如果,这样的话,作为一个意识问题, |
| 295 | those are now separate, you know, conscious access to contents. | 现在这些是分开的,你知道的, 有意识地访问内容。 |
| 296 | But I would say as a matter of, | 但我会说,作为一个问题, |
| 297 | of a felt sense that there's a subject to, I think, I think the question is probably open whether or | 我觉得这个问题可能还有待解决 |
| 298 | not both hemispheres of the brain would form that to precisely the same degree. | 大脑的两半球的形成程度并不完全相同。 |
| 299 | But, you know, | 但是,你知道吗, |
| 300 | there's, it was clear in from some of that fascinating research that they're almost | 从一些令人着迷的研究中可以明显看出 他们几乎 |
| 301 | different people in the in the two hemispheres. | 两半球不同的人 |
| 302 | I mean, they have different beliefs, they have | 我的意思是,他们有不同的信仰, 他们有 |
| 303 | different desires, they can fight, they can get into a tug of war over objects with, you know, | 不同的欲望,他们可以战斗, 他们可以进入 拖着战争的物体,你知道, |
| 304 | the right and left hand, you know, one, one subject was embracing his wife, while the other | 左右手,你知道,一个,一个主题 拥抱他的妻子,而另一个 |
| 305 | sub while the other with one hand and trying to strangle her with another. | 另一只手试图用另一只手掐死她 |
| 306 | In any case, yeah, | 无论如何,是的, |
| 307 | I think the sense that there's nothing lost at the level of consciousness, really, | 我觉得意识上没有任何损失,真的, |
| 308 | if you lose the sense of self, except you lose the sense of self, and that that should give you some | 如果你失去自我意识, 除了你失去自我意识, 那应该给你一些 |
| 309 | indication that it is a, it is itself an object of consciousness, it is a it is an appearance | 表示它是一个,它本身是意识的对象,它是一个外表 |
| 310 | of some kind, otherwise, you could never feel that it could change or be lost. | 否则,你永远不会觉得它可能改变或丢失。 |
| 311 | Yeah, that's | 是啊,这是 |
| 312 | Roger, when you set out your, your story, you sort of gave you view, but also laid your own trap and | 罗杰,当你写出你的故事, 你给了你一些观点, 但也设置了自己的陷阱, |
| 313 | here's my position. | 这就是我的立场。 |
| 314 | But here's the problem with my position. | 但我的立场有问题 |
| 315 | If you got any intuitions on how it | 如果你有直觉的话 |
| 316 | might be solved, it seems like more of a problem in terms of the self for your view than it does | 可能解决了,它似乎 更是一个问题 在自我方面 你的观点比它 |
| 317 | for the sounds. | 为声音。 |
| 318 | I guess the question is, you raised, it was not just the question of consciousness, | 我想问题是,你提出的, 这不仅仅是意识的问题, |
| 319 | but why one identifies the consciousness as a continuous thing, which goes from early on | 但是为什么人们会把意识 确定为一种持续的东西 从早期开始 |
| 320 | early childhood and remains the same thing in a certain sense until death, which is the sort of | 幼儿期,从某种意义上说,直到死亡, 都是一样的。 |
| 321 | irrational sort of view, or is there a sense in which it starts all over again, each time you | 那种非理性的视角, 或者有一种感觉 它从头开始,每次你 |
| 322 | wake up or whatever it is, have a start having a dream or something, I suppose. | 醒醒吧,不管是什么 开始做梦吧 |
| 323 | And to identify it with the earlier ones is due is a feature of memory. | 和早期的识别是应该的 是记忆的一个特征。 |
| 324 | Now, is it only memory? | 现在,它只是记忆? |
| 325 | Yeah, I suppose that's your question. | 是啊,我想这就是你的问题。 |
| 326 | Or is there in sense, some entity, which continues right | 或者在意义上,某个实体, 它继续正确的 |
| 327 | through. | 通过。 |
| 328 | And then if someone undergoes one of these brain, poor, poor person operations to | 如果有人接受这些大脑之一, 贫穷,穷人的手术 |
| 329 | what happens to that train of experience, do they? | 那辆经验火车会怎么样? |
| 330 | I don't know. | 师曰. |
| 331 | I mean, I'm just, | 我是说,我只是, |
| 332 | it's a long winded saying don't know, I think. | 我想这是个很长的句子 |
| 333 | So do you think memory is important here? | 你觉得记忆在这里很重要吗? |
| 334 | John | 约翰 |
| 335 | Locke's example of the, maybe he's got the first body swap tale, got lots in Hollywood now, but | 洛克的例子,也许他有 第一个身体交换故事, 有很多在好莱坞,但 |
| 336 | the cobbler and the prince is Locke. | 鹅卵石和王子是洛克。 |
| 337 | So the cobbler wakes up in the prince's body, the prince wakes | 因此,鹅卵石醒来 在王子的身体,王子醒来 |
| 338 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}在鹅卵石的体内 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我发现 | |
| 339 | And it's because they have the same memories and the stream of consciousness | 因为他们有着相同的记忆和意识 |
| 340 | that Roger's talking about that Locke thinks they're the same person, despite having a completely | 罗杰在说洛克认为他们是同一个人 尽管有一个完全的 |
| 341 | different physical vessel, which they occupy. | 不同的物理容器,他们占有。 |
| 342 | Would you see yourself in part of that tradition | 你会看到自己在传统的一部分 |
| 343 | that Locke was defending? | 洛克在为他辩护? |
| 344 | I mean, yes, in that if you had a brain transplant, it would be a body | 我的意思是,是的,因为 如果你有脑移植, 它会是一个身体 |
| 345 | swap. | 交换。 |
| 346 | It would be with your brain is you. | 你的大脑就是你 |
| 347 | That's the sort of where we're fairly confident you can | 那是我们相当自信的地方 |
| 348 | have a heart transplant and you're not a different person. | 做心脏移植,你不是另一个人 |
| 349 | There are some really interesting points | 有一些非常有趣的点 |
| 350 | around memory. | 围绕记忆。 |
| 351 | I was talking to Tom Manley, my partner from Cambridge University, and he's, | 我和我的剑桥大学搭档汤姆·曼利谈过 他... |
| 352 | we were talking about Clive Waring earlier, who is somebody who had a really horrible case of | 我们之前在谈论克莱夫·沃林 他是一个非常可怕的案子 |
| 353 | herpes encephalitis, which is very, very destructive of neural tissue. | her疹脑炎,对神经组织具有非常,非常的破坏性. |
| 354 | Different kinds of brain | 不同的大脑 |
| 355 | damage causes different kinds of damage, intensity of damage, and herpes really does. | 伤害会造成不同种类的伤害,损害的强度,而疱疹确实造成了伤害。 |
| 356 | It just destroys | 它只会毁灭 |
| 357 | brain tissue. | 脑组织. |
| 358 | Do not catch it. | 别抓住它。 |
| 359 | How don't you catch it? | 如何不获. |
| 360 | Well, unfortunately, most of us have | 很不幸,我们大多数人 |
| 361 | her疹. | |
| 362 | He's going to give us a cold sore, so we're kind of, and it's, he's left and he's still | 他会给我们一个感冒, 所以我们有点, 它,他离开了,他仍然 |
| 363 | alive. | 活着。 |
| 364 | He was a musician. | 他是个音乐家 |
| 365 | He worked at the BBC and he is left densely, densely amnestic. | 他曾在英国广播公司工作,而且他留下了密集的失忆症。 |
| 366 | He cannot | 他不会 |
| 367 | form new memories. | 形成新的记忆。 |
| 368 | He has barely any access to old memories to the extent to which his conscious | 他几乎无法接触旧记忆,以至于他意识到 |
| 369 | awareness is that he is continuously just waking up from a coma. | 意识是,他一直在昏迷中醒来。 |
| 370 | Every other person with amnesia, | 每一个有失忆症的人 |
| 371 | you can give them a diary and they can write things down in their diary and they will make | 你可以给他们一份日记 他们可以在日记里写下东西 他们会做的 |
| 372 | some use of that. | 有点用 |
| 373 | He comes to across his diary and goes, someone's been writing in this, crosses it | 他走到他的日记上,走了, 有人一直在写这个,交叉它 |
| 374 | out and then writes in, I'm awake for the first time. | 我第一次醒着 |
| 375 | A few seconds pass and he'll go, someone's | 过了几秒钟,他会去,有人 |
| 376 | been writing in my diary, crosses it out. | 在我的日记里写过 把它划出来 |
| 377 | So he has, it's desperate. | 所以他已经绝望了 |
| 378 | It's horrible, horrible situation. | 这是可怕的,可怕的情况。 |
| 379 | The weird thing is he knows who he is. | 奇怪的是他知道他是谁 |
| 380 | He knows his name. | 知其名号. |
| 381 | He knows his wife. | 他认识他的妻子。 |
| 382 | He can learn procedural | 他可以学习程序 |
| 383 | things like where cups go in a cupboard, the sort of, you know, sensory motor stuff. | 比如杯子放在橱柜里 那种感官运动的东西 |
| 384 | You don't need | 你用不着 |
| 385 | to have a more detailed analysis maybe to learn, maybe resting on different brain systems that he, | 进行更详细的分析 可能要学习, 可能休息在不同的大脑系统 他, |
| 386 | and he, when he engages with music, he is completely, totally engaged. | 而他,当他与音乐接触, 他完全,完全订婚。 |
| 387 | He can, he can conduct | 他可以,他可以指挥 |
| 388 | music without flaw, knows what he's doing. | 音乐没有缺陷,知道他在做什么。 |
| 389 | Outside of those few things, he really is absolutely all | 除了这几件事情,他真的是绝对的 |
| 390 | at sea, except he knows himself. | 在海上,除了他认识自己。 |
| 391 | So there is some interesting kind of, maybe that's what you're | 所以,有一些有趣的类型, 也许这就是你是什么 |
| 392 | seeing of the self when you've taken away all possibility of memory helping you is a sense of | 当你失去记忆时 看到自己 帮助你是一种感觉 |
| 393 | who you are, but nothing else until other things like your wife turning up or someone plays music | 但除了你妻子出现或有人演奏音乐以外 什么都不是 |
| 394 | that gives you something to hold on to. | 这给你一些东西来支撑。 |
| 395 | So memory isn't necessary for being a self? | 所以记忆对于自我来说没有必要? |
| 396 | It's not, maybe not necessary for being a self, but it maybe is necessary for being able to | 这对自我来说不是,也许不是必需的,但也许对能够 |
| 397 | situate that self into something that's meaningful and which calms you. | 让自己沉浸在有意义的事物中 让你平静下来 |
| 398 | Because he also has | 因为他也有 |
| 399 | desperate problems with emotion regulation, terribly, he's very frightened and upset by | 情绪管制有问题 他非常害怕和不安 |
| 400 | what's happened. | 发生了什么事? |
| 401 | And your memories help you do that. | 你的记忆帮助你做到这一点。 |
| 402 | If I go to sleep and I wake up the next day | 如果我睡觉,第二天醒来 |
| 403 | and everything about me is familiar, then memory is helping me not panic. | 我的一切是熟悉的, 那么记忆帮助我 不惊慌。 |
| 404 | If I woke up somewhere | 如果我醒来的地方 |
| 405 | new and I didn't know where I was, I would be frightened. | 新的,我不知道我在哪里,我会害怕。 |
| 406 | So memory is really important in | 所以记忆在 |
| 407 | helping us understand, and that's the world around us. | 帮助我们理解 那就是我们周围的世界 |
| 408 | And of course it's really, that's really | 当然,这是真的,这是真的 |
| 409 | important for being able to just regulate our moods within that. | 对能控制我们的情绪很重要 |
| 410 | Well, let me push you on this and | 好吧,让我推你这个 |
| 411 | get some more of your thoughts on it. | 得到一些你的想法 关于它。 |
| 412 | You gave the example earlier of, you know, you're a different | 你刚才举了个例子,你知道, 你是一个不同的 |
| 413 | person when you speak to your mother than when you do to the police. | 当你和你母亲说话时 而不是你对警察说话时 |
| 414 | I'm not always talking to | 我并不总是说话 |
| 415 | the police, I'm just an example, just an example. | 警察,我只是个例子,只是一个例子。 |
| 416 | And the thought there is, right, we all know we | 我们都知道 |
| 417 | have different aspects of our personality, but we still think it's the same me, the same entity, | 我们的性格不同, 但我们仍然认为,它是相同的我,同一个实体, |
| 418 | which was there 10 years ago, 10 minutes ago, 10 seconds ago. | 十年前,10分钟前,10秒前 |
| 419 | It's the same me throughout time there. | 一直以来我都一样 |
| 420 | So I wonder what you think more particularly about whether or not we could have multiple | 所以,我不知道你有什么想法 更具体地说,我们能不能有多个 |
| 421 | of those entities, which are me throughout time in one brain. | 这些实体, 永远是我在一个大脑。 |
| 422 | So for example, you get people with | 所以,举例来说,你得到的人与 |
| 423 | like schizophrenia who feel like they've got multiple inner voices in their heads, | 就像精神分裂症 感觉自己有多重内心的声音 |
| 424 | people with cartilage syndrome who feel as if they're dead or they're having the thoughts of | 软骨综合征患者 感觉自己好像死了 或有想法 |
| 425 | someone who's passed away and they don't feel like those thoughts are their thoughts, but someone | 已经过世的人,他们不觉得 那些想法是他们的想法,但有人 |
| 426 | who's deceased. | 谁死了。 |
| 427 | To continue watching this video, click the link in the top left or in the description | 要继续观看这段视频,请点击左上方或描述中的链接 |
| 428 | below. | 见下文。 |
| 429 | With a free trial, you can enjoy the full talk and thousands more. | 有了自由的审判,你就可以享受到全面的谈话,还有上千人. |
| 430 | Thank you for being part | 谢谢你参与 |
| 431 | of the conversation. Thank you for being part of the conversation. Thank you for being part of the conversation. | 谈话。 谢谢你参与谈话 谢谢你参与谈话 |
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