为什么基因决定论是错误的｜诺贝尔著名科学家Denis Nob
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | I think things have got to come up to date in evolutionary biology and recognise that essentially Darwin would never have been a neo-Darwinian. | 我认为,在进化生物学中,事情必须有所改进, 并且认识到达尔文从本质上来说永远不会是新达尔文主义者。 |
| 0:17 | Dennis Noble, welcome to How the Light Gets In. | 丹尼斯·诺贝尔 欢迎光照进场 |
| 0:20 | I am very happy to be here and delighted to have this discussion with you. | 我非常高兴来到这里,很高兴与你们讨论这个问题。 |
| 0:27 | In one form or another, as you've claimed, the idea of genetic determinism, | 以这种或那种形式, 正如你所宣称的, 基因决定主义的想法, |
| 0:31 | this idea that our behaviour is controlled, can be predicted by the inner workings of our biological makeup, | 这个想法,我们的行为被控制, 可以预测我们的生物化妆的内部工作, |
| 0:39 | goes back a very long time. | 很久以前的事了 都过去了 |
| 0:40 | You point out that you can find it in Descartes in the 17th century. | 你指出,17世纪可以在笛卡尔找到它. |
| 0:45 | You can, that's right, yes. | 你可以,没错,是的。 |
| 0:46 | Why do you think this idea has such a lasting appeal? | 你为何认为这个想法有如此持久的吸引力? |
| 0:51 | I think it has been a big mistake, maybe philosophical for a moment, of dualism. | 我认为这是一个很大的错误,也许在一瞬间是哲学上的双重主义. |
展开字幕全文（378 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | I think things have got to come up to date in evolutionary biology and recognise that essentially Darwin would never have been a neo-Darwinian. | 我认为,在进化生物学中,事情必须有所改进, 并且认识到达尔文从本质上来说永远不会是新达尔文主义者。 |
| 2 | Dennis Noble, welcome to How the Light Gets In. | 丹尼斯·诺贝尔 欢迎光照进场 |
| 3 | I am very happy to be here and delighted to have this discussion with you. | 我非常高兴来到这里,很高兴与你们讨论这个问题。 |
| 4 | In one form or another, as you've claimed, the idea of genetic determinism, | 以这种或那种形式, 正如你所宣称的, 基因决定主义的想法, |
| 5 | this idea that our behaviour is controlled, can be predicted by the inner workings of our biological makeup, | 这个想法,我们的行为被控制, 可以预测我们的生物化妆的内部工作, |
| 6 | goes back a very long time. | 很久以前的事了 都过去了 |
| 7 | You point out that you can find it in Descartes in the 17th century. | 你指出,17世纪可以在笛卡尔找到它. |
| 8 | You can, that's right, yes. | 你可以,没错,是的。 |
| 9 | Why do you think this idea has such a lasting appeal? | 你为何认为这个想法有如此持久的吸引力? |
| 10 | I think it has been a big mistake, maybe philosophical for a moment, of dualism. | 我认为这是一个很大的错误,也许在一瞬间是哲学上的双重主义. |
| 11 | You see, Descartes was a dualist. | 笛卡尔是二元主义者 |
| 12 | He dealt with the problem of the mechanics of an organism | 他处理一个生物体的力学问题 |
| 13 | by saying there must be a spiritual entity that interacts with the mechanics. | 说必须有一个精神实体 与力学相互作用。 |
| 14 | This was Cartesian dualism. | 这是笛卡尔二元论。 |
| 15 | And in a sense, the dualism of the replicator being in communication with and conducting the vehicle | 从某种意义上说,复制机的双重性 是在与车辆通讯和运行 |
| 16 | is a resurrection of the same kind of problem. | 是同一类问题的复活 |
| 17 | We don't need a dualism. | 我们不需要二元论. |
| 18 | The agency of organisms comes from within us. | 生物的能量来自我们内部 |
| 19 | It doesn't come from some ghostly outside. | 它不来自一些鬼 外面。 |
| 20 | I don't even know what that would mean if I tried to give it meaning. | 我甚至不知道那意味着什么 如果我试图赋予它的意义。 |
| 21 | So I think it's fairly easy to see where it comes from because obviously it has to have some degree of non-determinant function. | 所以,我认为它很容易看清它来自何处, 因为很明显它必须具有某种程度的非决定性功能。 |
| 22 | Otherwise it would be determinate. | 否则就决定了。 |
| 23 | So what we're talking about is can there be innovation? | 所以,我们所说的是,是否有创新? |
| 24 | Can there be creativity? | 有没有创造力? |
| 25 | That's the key question. | 这是关键问题。 |
| 26 | Now the Darwinian, or rather the neo-Darwinian answer to that is, | 现在达尔文人,或者说新达尔文人 回答是, |
| 27 | well, there is chance, there is stochasticity, but it's not used. | 好吧,有一个机会,有 花样,但它没有使用。 |
| 28 | It is just simply determining how many breakages, how many changes occur naturally in the genome. | 它只是简单地决定了 基因组中有多少断裂, 多少变化是自然发生的。 |
| 29 | And then natural selection comes along and automatically works out which are successful and which are not. | 然后自然选择的出现, 并自动工作 哪些是成功的,哪些不是。 |
| 30 | And I accept that. | 我接受这一点。 |
| 31 | Obviously if that is the way things happen, that's fine. | 显然,如果这是事情发生的方式, 那很好。 |
| 32 | Now I just reverse that by saying that in addition to that process, organisms can actually go and use the chance. | 现在,我只通过说,除了这个过程之外,生物可以去利用这个机会。 |
| 33 | And they're doing that all the time. | 他们总是这样 |
| 34 | See, the way our immune systems work shows that. | 你看,我们的免疫系统的运作方式 表明这一点。 |
| 35 | What happens when a new virus or new bacterium or new anything else arrives is first the immune system. | 当新病毒或新细菌或新东西到达时,首先会出现免疫系统. |
| 36 | I'm going to use some anthropological way of saying it, but we all know this has to do with molecular processes. | 我要用一些人类学的方法来表达, 但我们都知道这和分子过程有关。 |
| 37 | What it does is to try to find out whether it's got a sequence that already can latch onto that virus or that bacterium. | 它所做的是试着找出它是否有一个 已经可以捕捉到病毒或细菌的序列。 |
| 38 | In which case it just multiplies those cells. | 这样的话,它只会使这些细胞倍增。 |
| 39 | So it's got the feedback there already if it already exists. | 所以,如果它已经存在的话,它已经有反馈了。 |
| 40 | If it doesn't, it does something quite fascinating. | 如果它不这样做, 它做的东西相当迷人。 |
| 41 | It goes to the nucleus and says, please stop the error correction and allow the breaks to occur. | 它去核 并说,请停止 错误纠正 并允许中断发生。 |
| 42 | And then we will select out of those the very few that can grab hold of this new virus. | 然后,我们将从那些能够抓住这种新病毒的少数病毒中挑选出来。 |
| 43 | That's how the immune system works. | 免疫系统就是这样运作的. |
| 44 | Now what I'm saying is that's general. | 现在我要说的是,那是将军。 |
| 45 | It happens in bacteria when they resist antibiotics. | 它发生在细菌中,当它们抵抗抗生素. |
| 46 | It happens in cancers where they resist radiotherapy and chemotherapy. | 它发生在癌症中 他们抵制放射疗法和化疗。 |
| 47 | What do they do? | 他们做什么的? |
| 48 | They also hyper mutate. | 它们也会发生突变 |
| 49 | They use chance to get novelty. | 他们利用机会获得新颖感. |
| 50 | And I think that's what organisms are doing all the time. | 我认为这就是生物 一直在做的。 |
| 51 | The answer therefore I think to the question, are we creative? | 因此,我认为问题的答案是,我们是否具有创造性? |
| 52 | First of all, it's obvious we are. | 首先,我们很显然。 |
| 53 | How do you get a Beethoven? | 如何获得贝多芬? |
| 54 | How do you get an Einstein if we're not? | 如果我们不是爱因斯坦 你怎么得到的? |
| 55 | But the question is, can physiologists explain that? | 但问题是 生理学家能解释一下吗? |
| 56 | And I think they can. | 我认为他们可以。 |
| 57 | If you can bring that stochastic process under some kind of control, | 如果你能把这个诡异的过程 置于某种控制之下 |
| 58 | you then do the selecting, then you can end up with creativity. | 然后,你做选择, 然后你可以最终创造力。 |
| 59 | To go back to your claim that this sort of gene-centric or gene deterministic view | 回到你所说的这种以基因为中心的观点 |
| 60 | is founded on a kind of dualistic picture of the human as divided between the body and something else. | 它建立在一种二元论的画面上 人类被分割在身体和其他东西之间 |
| 61 | Do you find that animates even contemporary versions of this idea | 你是否发现这动画 甚至当代版本 这个想法 |
| 62 | of the gene-centric deterministic picture? | 以基因为中心的决定性图象? |
| 63 | Less and less actually because I don't want to diminish the reputation of Richard Dawkins. | 实际上越来越少了,因为我不想贬低理查德·道金斯的声誉. |
| 64 | I've acknowledged that many times. | 我承认过很多次了 |
| 65 | His book is clearly the best exposition of neo-Darwinism we've got. | 他的书显然是我们对新达尔文主义的最好阐述. |
| 66 | It's a popular exposition. | 广博博览. |
| 67 | It naturally sells in millions of copies. | 其销售量自然达到百万份. |
| 68 | But I don't think the great majority of research biologists | 但我不认为大多数研究生物学家 |
| 69 | are any longer following that path in the way in which he laid it out. | 继续沿着他阐述的方式走下去。 |
| 70 | So I'm sorry to say I think the ground has shifted quite a long way. | 所以,我很遗憾地说,我认为地面已经改变了很多。 |
| 71 | You see, in the debate we've just had, and he preferred to call it a conversation. | 你看,在我们刚刚的辩论中, 他宁愿把它叫做对话。 |
| 72 | I'm happy with calling it a conversation. | 我乐于称之为对话. |
| 73 | But in what we've just done, it seems to me that what that showed | 但是,在我们刚刚所做的, 在我看来,它显示 |
| 74 | was that I don't think people like Richard yet know that. | 我觉得理查德这种人还不知道 |
| 75 | That things really have moved on very rapidly. | 事情真的进展得很快。 |
| 76 | Did we know a few years ago that there could be tiny particles | 几年前我们是否知道 可能有微小的粒子 |
| 77 | that can carry RNAs and DNAs to the germ line? | 可以携带RNA和DNA到细菌线? |
| 78 | No, we didn't. | 不,我们没有。 |
| 79 | That's within the last 20 years. | 这是在过去20年里。 |
| 80 | So there is a shift here. | 因此,这里有一个转变。 |
| 81 | It's in principle of enormous proportions. | 原则上规模巨大. |
| 82 | And whether people are waking up to that in the public media, I rather doubt. | 我怀疑大众媒体是否对此有所察觉。 |
| 83 | But they really should, because it has big, big implications. | 但他们真的应该,因为它有大,大的影响。 |
| 84 | And what do you see as the main fault of this old picture, | 你觉得这段老照片的主要错误是什么? |
| 85 | the gene-centric, selfish gene, Richard Dawkins, neo-Darwinian picture of ourselves? | 以基因为中心 自私的基因 理查德·道金斯 新达尔文人对我们的看法 |
| 86 | What's the main kind of objection that you have to that picture? | 你对那张照片的主要反对意见是什么? |
| 87 | The main one I've got is actually a health and welfare problem. | 我得到的主要是健康和福利问题。 |
| 88 | We've spent literally billions now in the world sequencing genomes. | 我们已经花了数十亿 现在在世界测序基因组。 |
| 89 | Now, I'm not denying the importance of the genome sequencing. | 现在,我没有否认基因组测序的重要性。 |
| 90 | It has clearly given us the possibility of establishing trees of life | 这显然给了我们建立生命之树的可能性 |
| 91 | and so on as we compare the genomes of different species. | 当我们比较不同物种的基因组时, |
| 92 | That is brilliant. | 这是辉煌的。 |
| 93 | That's good fundamental science. | 这是很好的 基础科学。 |
| 94 | But I'm a physiologist. | 但我是一个生理学家。 |
| 95 | I teach medical students. | 我教医科学生 |
| 96 | From the point of view of what was promised 20-odd years ago | 从20多年前承诺的角度来看 |
| 97 | in relation to cures for cancer, cures for diabetes, cures for Alzheimer, cures, you name it, | 关于癌症的治疗 糖尿病的治疗 阿尔茨海默症的治疗 治疗 你的名字 |
| 98 | there was going to be these cures coming from the sky almost as we got to know which genes caused which. | 这些解药会从天而降 当我们知道是什么基因引起的 |
| 99 | What have we found? | 我们发现了什么? |
| 100 | The association levels are quite tiny. | 协会级别很小。 |
| 101 | Now, a physiologist like me, seeing that data, says, well, we know why. | 现在,像我这样的生理学家, 看到这些数据,说,嗯,我们知道为什么。 |
| 102 | I mean, the experiment that I described in the debate is very obviously illustrating that. | 我的意思是,我在辩论中描述的实验非常明显地说明了这一点。 |
| 103 | We found a major protein that contributes to the rhythm of the heart, how frequently it beats. | 我们发现一个主要的蛋白质 有助于心脏的节奏, 如何频繁的跳动。 |
| 104 | We know it contributes about 80% of the current that generates that rhythmic frequency. | 我们知道它贡献了大约80%的电流 产生节奏频率。 |
| 105 | Knock it out with a blocker of that protein or knock the gene out. | 用那个蛋白质的阻断剂把它打倒 或者把基因打碎 |
| 106 | What do you find? | 你发现了什么? |
| 107 | A very modest change in frequency. | 频率变化不大 |
| 108 | Now, that doesn't mean that it didn't contribute 80% of the functionality. | 这并不意味着它没有贡献80%的功能。 |
| 109 | We know it did. | 我们知道它做到了。 |
| 110 | We measured it. | 我们测量过了 |
| 111 | What it means is that another mechanism kicks in and we know what that was. | 它的意思是, 另一种机制启动 我们知道那是什么。 |
| 112 | So, we've been able to show that from a physiological point of view, | 所以,我们从生理角度来说, |
| 113 | the association scores don't really tell us very much. | 协会的得分不怎么告诉我们 |
| 114 | You can even have an association of zero for a gene that is actually functional. | 你甚至可以有一个0的关联 对于一个实际功能的基因。 |
| 115 | Now, that's striking. | 现在,这是惊人的。 |
| 116 | But what that means is just reading your genome, you won't know that, you won't even see that. | 但是,这意味着只是读取你的基因组, 你不会知道,你甚至不会看到。 |
| 117 | So, I think the big issue for me is when are we going to wake up to the fact | 所以,我认为,对我来说,大的问题 是什么时候我们要去醒来的事实 |
| 118 | that we've spent 20 years now sequencing as many genomes as we can, | 我们花了20年的时间 尽可能多地测序基因组 |
| 119 | the output as promised simply hasn't appeared. | 所承诺的输出根本没有出现 |
| 120 | If we appreciate why that happened, why that failure happened, | 如果我们知道为什么发生,为什么失败发生, |
| 121 | we can then shift to a better way of doing it. | 然后,我们可以转向更好的方法做到这一点。 |
| 122 | And we know what that was. | 我们知道那是什么。 |
| 123 | Before genome sequencing, what we did was to look at the high-level organization of the system, | 在基因组测序之前 我们所做的就是研究系统的高级别组织 |
| 124 | the living system, locate what was going wrong there, | 找出那里出问题的地方 |
| 125 | and then work down to find what you might do at lower levels with a drug | 然后努力寻找你用药物在较低水平上可以做什么 |
| 126 | or any other kind of treatment, for that matter, to put it right. | 或任何其它类型的治疗, 为此,把它正确。 |
| 127 | And that works much better than trying to go the other way. | 这比走另一条路好得多。 |
| 128 | Because going the other way, the space for possible molecules and possible effects | 因为反之 可能分子的空间和可能的效果 |
| 129 | and even more possible combinations of effects, | 更可能的组合 效果, |
| 130 | because those complex diseases are going to require combinations of treatment, | 因为这些复杂的疾病需要综合治疗, |
| 131 | there are too many. | 有太多的。 |
| 132 | You can't do clinical trials on all of those possibilities. | 你不能做临床试验 所有这些可能性。 |
| 133 | It's just far too expensive. | 这太贵了 |
| 134 | So, I think we just need to take a different approach to medical research | 所以,我认为我们只需要 采取不同的方法 医学研究 |
| 135 | to try to benefit from the human genome sequencing | 试图从人类基因组测序中受益 |
| 136 | in a way that's different from what they originally promised. | 和他们原先承诺的不一样 |
| 137 | The new medications haven't fallen out of the sky. | 新药未降天. |
| 138 | We now need to take up the pieces and work out why that was the case. | 我们现在需要讨论一下问题,并找出原因。 |
| 139 | I think I've already explained that. | 我想我已经解释过了 |
| 140 | And then, what do we do about it and how do we do a better way | 然后,我们该怎么办 如何做一个更好的方式 |
| 141 | of getting healthcare sorted out? | 获得医疗照顾? |
| 142 | Because it's urgent to do so. | 因甚急切. |
| 143 | We've got aging populations that are going to swamp our health services. | 我们的老化人口 将淹没我们的卫生服务。 |
| 144 | This is really urgent. | 这真的很紧急。 |
| 145 | So, the previous picture in your mind suffered from this almost reductionist impulse, | 所以,你脑中之前的画面 遭受了这种几乎简化的冲动, |
| 146 | that everything was reduced to the level of the gene, | 一切被降低到基因的水平, |
| 147 | and once we found what genes were for each disease, we could then treat it. | 一旦我们发现每种疾病的基因, 我们就可以治疗它。 |
| 148 | But, as you say, there isn't actually a gene for most things. | 但是,正如你说的, 大部分东西实际上没有一个基因。 |
| 149 | There isn't a program there, I'm afraid. | 恐怕没有程序 |
| 150 | You see, I'm a programmer. | 你看,我是一个程序员。 |
| 151 | I know how to write if, then, else, and if so, then, that, and so on. | 我知道怎么写,如果, 那么,其他的, 如果是这样, 那么,那,等等。 |
| 152 | You know, you can do that endlessly. | 你知道,你可以无休止地做到这一点。 |
| 153 | It's what programming does. | 这就是编程的作用. |
| 154 | There is no such program in the genome. | 基因组中没有这样的程序。 |
| 155 | You look there and try and find it. | 你看看那里,试着找到它。 |
| 156 | You won't find it. | 你不会找到的。 |
| 157 | What you've got is a series of switches, | 你有的是一系列开关, |
| 158 | because it is true that each sequence that can be used to make an RNA or protein | 因为每个可以用来制造RNA或蛋白质的序列 |
| 159 | has a place where it can be switched on or off, sure. | 有地方可以打开或关闭它,当然。 |
| 160 | But that's the switch. | 但这是开关。 |
| 161 | It's not the if, then, logic. | 这不是逻辑 |
| 162 | The logic is not there. | 逻辑是不存在的。 |
| 163 | You've said that this approach is sort of neo-Darwinian, | 你说这个方法有点新达尔文主义 |
| 164 | and in a way you were hinting that it goes against | 在某种程度上,你暗示 它违反 |
| 165 | the kind of fundamental tenets of Charles Darwin himself. | 查尔斯·达尔文本人的根本原则 |
| 166 | Absolutely so. | 当然 |
| 167 | How do you see the difference between those two? | 你怎么看这两个的区别? |
| 168 | What was Charles Darwin's view, | 查尔斯·达尔文的看法是什么? |
| 169 | and how did it get distorted by neo-Darwinism? | 以及它是如何被新达尔文主义扭曲的? |
| 170 | Yes, I think what neo-Darwinism did was to take his initial, | 是的,我认为新达尔文主义所做的是 取他的首字母, |
| 171 | the discovery for which he is initially rightly respected enormously, | 他的发现,最初是受到高度尊重的, |
| 172 | which is natural selection, | 这是自然的, |
| 173 | which is the key element in the origin of species, | 这是物种起源的关键要素, |
| 174 | and in the joint papers he did with Wallace at the previous year, 1858. | 而在1858年他与华莱士的 联合论文中 |
| 175 | So, rightly, Darwin is praised for that, | 达尔文因此受到赞扬 |
| 176 | but he was a much more nuanced thinker about evolution. | 但他是一个更细微的 思考进化。 |
| 177 | He went on worrying about this all the way through his life. | 他一生都在担心这个 |
| 178 | First, in the origin of species itself, | 首先,在物种本身的起源, |
| 179 | he already includes use and disuse as a mechanism of evolution. | 他已经包括了使用和不使用 作为一种进化机制。 |
| 180 | Even the great modern synthesisist Ernst Mayr, | 即使是伟大的现代合成家恩斯特·迈尔, |
| 181 | in his big book on biological thought about 30, 40 years ago, | 在他的关于生物思想的大书 大约30,40年前, |
| 182 | at the time of the centenary of the origin of species, | 在物种起源一百周年之际 |
| 183 | he wrote, you know, in Darwin I can see 12 places | 他写了,你知道,在达尔文 我可以看到12个地方 |
| 184 | where he acknowledges Lamarckian mechanisms. | 在那里,他承认拉麦奇机制。 |
| 185 | So, it wasn't absent in 1859, | 1859年没有缺席 |
| 186 | but by 1868 he formulated a theory, | 但到了1868年 他提出了一种理论 |
| 187 | which he then went on for the next ten years of his life to try to prove. | 接下来的十年里 他试图证明 |
| 188 | He was that devoted to it. | 他就是那么热衷于这个 |
| 189 | Now, his theory was very simple. | 他的理论很简单。 |
| 190 | It was that the use and disuse in the body can get communicated to the germline. | 体内的用途和不使用可以传递给细菌。 |
| 191 | How can it do that if there aren't particles that do that? | 如果没有粒子,它怎么能做到这一点呢? |
| 192 | He couldn't see them. | 他看不到他们。 |
| 193 | So, he admitted at that time, you find that in his 1868 book, | 所以,他承认当时, 你发现在他的1868年书, |
| 194 | he says this is a guess, this is a hypothesis. | 他说这是猜测,这是假设 |
| 195 | We've now found them, and they are the tiny particles | 我们现在找到它们了,它们是小颗粒 |
| 196 | that cells all over the body are pouring out all the time. | 全身的细胞 总是涌出。 |
| 197 | I mean, when Richard told me during the debate, you know, | 我的意思是,当理查德告诉我 在辩论,你知道, |
| 198 | it would need all of this information to be transmitted. | 它需要传递所有这些信息。 |
| 199 | Well, it is transmitted. | 是传来的 |
| 200 | So, I think things have got to come up to date in evolutionary biology | 我想进化生物学应该有所改进 |
| 201 | and recognize that essentially Darwin would never have been a neo-Darwinian. | 并且承认达尔文从本质上来说 绝不会是新达尔文主义者 |
| 202 | He would not have accepted the Weissmann barrier. | 他不会接受魏斯曼的封锁 |
| 203 | Otherwise, he wouldn't have developed his theory of gemmules | 否则,他就不会发展出他的基因理论 |
| 204 | to explain how information could go from the soma to the germline. | 解释信息如何从苏玛到细菌 |
| 205 | He would have never accepted the idea that natural selection was the only mechanism, | 他绝不会接受自然选择是唯一机制的想法 |
| 206 | and he says that specifically. | 他说得特别清楚 |
| 207 | So, I think if he'd lived to hear Weissmann giving his famous lecture in 1883 | 所以,我想如果他活着 听到魏斯曼在1883年的演讲 |
| 208 | on the isolation of the germline, he died in 1882, so he couldn't. | 他于1882年去世,所以他不能 |
| 209 | But if he'd lived to it, I think he would have said, no, you're wrong. | 但如果他活了下来,我想他会说,不,你错了。 |
| 210 | What's the alternative picture to this sort of genetic determinism? | 除了这种基因决定论,还有什么其他的? |
| 211 | You've used the metaphor in the past of thinking of genes not as a code, as you said, | 你曾经用过比喻来思考基因 而不是密码,就像你说的, |
| 212 | but as a kind of musical score, and as a score that can be interpreted in various different ways. | 但作为一种音乐的乐谱, 和一种可以用不同方式解释的乐谱。 |
| 213 | Can you tell us a little bit more about the way you think about this? | 你能多告诉我们一点你的想法吗? |
| 214 | Yes. | 对 |
| 215 | Well, I am, as it happens, a musician. | 嗯,我是一个音乐家。 |
| 216 | I actually give a big concert tomorrow in Oxford in the Sheldonian Theatre. | 我明天在牛津 Sheldonian剧院举办大型音乐会 |
| 217 | But, no, I've obviously taken from my musical side of my life this metaphor for a very good reason. | 但是,不,我显然从我的音乐方面 从我的生活这个比喻 一个很好的理由。 |
| 218 | If you look at a score of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, whatever you want to take, | 如果你看看巴赫、贝多芬、莫扎特的分数 随便你拿什么 |
| 219 | and you look at different orchestras, different soloists interpreting those scores, | 你看不同的管弦乐团, 不同的独奏家解释这些分数, |
| 220 | what stands out a mile to a musician is the differences. | 对音乐家来说最突出的就是差异。 |
| 221 | Of course you can recognise the same notes there, but the interpretation is so different. | 当然,你可以识别 相同的音符, 但解释是如此不同。 |
| 222 | One has always to say there's this style of playing Beethoven, there's that style of playing Beethoven. | 人们总是说有这种演奏贝多芬的风格,有那种演奏贝多芬的风格. |
| 223 | The same thing can be said about Bach. | 对于巴赫来说,同样的事情也是可以说的. |
| 224 | And I think the answer is that the analogy is that with the same notes you can play totally different music. | 我认为答案是,类比是,用同样的音符,你可以演奏完全不同的音乐。 |
| 225 | And the same is true for genes. | 基因也是如此。 |
| 226 | With the same genes you can play very different behaviour. | 有了同样的基因,你可以玩 非常不同的行为。 |
| 227 | For example, if I'm selfish, I have my selfish characteristic at a time when I have the genes that Dennis Noble has. | 例如,如果我自私,我有一个自私的特征,此时我拥有丹尼斯·诺贝尔拥有的基因. |
| 228 | When I am altruistic and very kind to people, I have exactly the same genes. | 当我利他主义和非常善待人时, 我有完全相同的基因。 |
| 229 | My genes haven't changed between being selfish one day and being altruistic the next day. | 我的基因在一天自私和第二天利他主义之间没有变化. |
| 230 | I naturally use the same genes. | 我自然使用同样的基因。 |
| 231 | So genes can't be responsible for my selfishness. | 所以基因不能为我的自私负责 |
| 232 | I'm responsible for my selfishness. | 我对我的自私负责 |
| 233 | So what is the agency here? | 那这里是什么机构? |
| 234 | Where do we locate it? | 我们在哪里找到它? |
| 235 | Who's doing the interpreting of the musical score here? | 谁在这里做音乐乐谱的诠释? |
| 236 | The organism is the source of the interpretation. | 机体是解释的来源. |
| 237 | Now the big question there is how do you explain that without recreating a duality? | 现在最大的问题是,你如何解释,而不重新创造双重性? |
| 238 | How do you get to that without having to make Descartes' mistake? | 你怎么做到不犯笛卡尔的错误? |
| 239 | Descartes' mistake was to suppose there's a kind of other entity, non-material, a soul, a spirit, whatever you want to call it, | 笛卡尔的错误是 假设有另一种实体, 非物质, 灵魂,精神, 无论你想称之为它, |
| 240 | that interacts with the mechanics, as it were, because he actually thought that other animals, apart from humans, were indeed mechanisms. | 他确实认为除了人类之外 其他动物确实是机制 |
| 241 | So now, interestingly, most evolutionary biologists who have the neo-Darwinian persuasion tend to say, well, humans are also… | 所以,有趣的是,大多数有新达尔文主义说服力的进化生物学家都倾向于说,人类也是... |
| 242 | But put that to one side. | 但放一边 |
| 243 | The big question is how can you get creativity without having to have something up there that injects it into you? | 最大的问题是,你怎样才能获得创造力,而不必有某种东西注入到你身上? |
| 244 | You know that lovely painting of the fingers pointing, you see, and Adam gets, as it were, activated by the finger of God. | 你知道那张可爱的画 指向手指,你看, 亚当得到了,原样, 激活了上帝的手指。 |
| 245 | We don't need that. | 我们不需要那个 |
| 246 | I'm not saying whether people who believe that are right or wrong. | 我不是说那些相信是非的人 |
| 247 | I'm leaving that to them. | 我要留给他们 |
| 248 | But what I do think is you don't need that because the organism has that ability already. | 但我认为你不需要,因为机体已经具备了这种能力。 |
| 249 | The reason is simply because it can use the chance events that occur in its molecular mechanisms. | 原因很简单,因为它可以使用在其分子机制中发生的偶然事件. |
| 250 | There's where the creativity comes from. | 创造力从何而来. |
| 251 | Then the question is what emerges from that you want to keep and what you want to reject. | 问题是,从你想要保存的事物中产生什么,你想要拒绝什么。 |
| 252 | It's very simple. | 很简单 |
| 253 | It sounds like what you're saying is allowing for a kind of freedom to enter into the picture of how we think of our biology. | 听起来你的意思是允许某种自由 进入我们如何看待生物学的画面 |
| 254 | Genetic determinism makes it sound like we are Cartesian machines and we have a clockwork and we kind of work. | 遗传决定论让我们听起来像是笛卡尔式的机器 我们有时钟和工作 |
| 255 | But my question is, is there now a room for determinism to come from another side, namely the environment acting upon us? | 但我的问题是,现在是否有从另一边,即从对我们采取行动的环境方面作出决定的余地? |
| 256 | Yes, but now let's have a look at that because you see that's stochastic as well. | 是的,但现在让我们来看看, 因为你也看到这很诡异。 |
| 257 | I agree with you. | 我同意你的观点。 |
| 258 | Yes, you could say that the environment is itself determining what we do. | 是的,你可以说,环境本身决定着我们做什么。 |
| 259 | Now I think that's partly true. | 现在,我认为这部分是正确的。 |
| 260 | Clearly I've become the kind of person I've become through my history. | 很明显,我已经成为我经历历史的人 |
| 261 | So in that sense it must be the case that the environment is a big influence, just as genes are. | 因此从这个意义上讲,环境必定是一个巨大的影响,就像基因一样。 |
| 262 | You see I don't deny that genes are influential. | 我并不否认基因有影响力 |
| 263 | I'll just simply say they're not causal in the way that we can be as agents. | 我只是简单地说,他们不是 因果关系的方式 我们可以作为特工。 |
| 264 | They're not causing my selfishness. | 他们不会让我自私的 |
| 265 | They're not causing other forms of my behaviour. | 他们没有引起我的其他行为形式。 |
| 266 | Now the way I think to think about this is that once you can harness chance, use it, you have the possibility of creating novelty. | 现在我想到的是,一旦你能够把握机会,利用机会, 你就能创造出新的东西。 |
| 267 | And that's what we're doing. | 这就是我们在做什么。 |
| 268 | Isn't that what we call creativity? | 这不是我们所说的创造力吗? |
| 269 | You see, before Beethoven emerges we couldn't have predicted. | 在贝多芬出现之前 我们无法预料 |
| 270 | I don't think musicians before Beethoven would have predicted what he did. | 我认为贝多芬之前的音乐家不会预言他做了什么. |
| 271 | He turned the upper cart around and came in with this, and all the rest of it, and turned music upside down. | 他把上马车转过来,带着这个进来,剩下的全部,把音乐颠倒了. |
| 272 | And Einstein did the same with physics, fundamental physics. | 爱因斯坦也做了同样的物理学, 基本物理学。 |
| 273 | I think what those people were doing was to find the chance processes within themselves. | 我认为,这些人正在做的是找到他们自己的机会进程。 |
| 274 | Seeing it and then saying, oh I want to go that way, that's going to shock the world. | 看到它,然后说, 哦,我想走那条路, 这将震惊世界。 |
| 275 | And they go for it. | 而他们去。 |
| 276 | Now sometimes they're wrong. | 现在有时他们错了。 |
| 277 | That's fine too. | 那也没关系。 |
| 278 | That's how science, music, poetry and so on experiments and finds its way forward. | 科学,音乐,诗歌等实验就是这样找到前进的道路的. |
| 279 | If we didn't have people who were wrong, we wouldn't be where we are. | 如果我们没有错的人, 我们就不会在我们的位置。 |
| 280 | So we have to encourage that. | 因此,我们必须鼓励这样做。 |
| 281 | But the process, I think, is within ourselves. | 但是,我认为,这一进程是属于我们的。 |
| 282 | And it's based on the fact that we are not determinate like computers with silicon chips that are rigid. | 它是基于这样一个事实,即我们不像计算机那样具有硬性硅芯片。 |
| 283 | I sometimes think of it like this. | 我有时会这样想 |
| 284 | If I met a robot that looked very much like a beautiful girl, | 如果我遇到一个非常像美女的机器人 |
| 285 | and everything went fine together with her and me, but then I discovered there was a big problem. | 但后来我发现了一个大问题 |
| 286 | I couldn't work out why she doesn't seem to know where she's going. | 我不知道为什么她似乎不知道 她要去哪里。 |
| 287 | What's her purpose? | 她的目的为何? |
| 288 | It's as if she's being programmed by Google to be the best person to satisfy all my wishes. | 她好像被Google编程成为满足我所有愿望的最佳人选. |
| 289 | But if that is all that it does, the robot, it gets boring after about six months, you see. | 但是如果这就是它所做的,机器人, 它在大约六个月后变得无聊,你看。 |
| 290 | And then I ask the question, but how does the robot see it? | 然后我问了这个问题 但机器人是怎么看待的? |
| 291 | Could we imagine how the robot would see it? | 我们能想象机器人会如何看待它吗? |
| 292 | And I think what the robot would say would be roughly this. | 我想机器人会这么说 |
| 293 | Oh dear, I'm made of silicon chips. | 哦,亲爱的,我是硅芯片做的。 |
| 294 | My molecules, yes they vibrate a bit, but they don't move around. | 我的分子,是的,它们震动了一点, 但是它们不会移动。 |
| 295 | He's made of water. | 师以水制之. |
| 296 | What happens in water? | 水里会发生什么事? |
| 297 | The molecules are moving around all the time. | 分子一直在移动 |
| 298 | It's Brownian motion, which we've known about ever since about 1830. | 这是布朗式动议,我们从1830年左右就开始知道。 |
| 299 | So she's frustrated. | 所以她很沮丧 |
| 300 | I wrote a story like this. | 我写了一个这样的故事。 |
| 301 | That's why I can repeat it here. | 所以我可以在这里重复一遍 |
| 302 | Because it fascinates me, because this will come. | 因为它让我着迷 因为这会来的 |
| 303 | AI will get to the point where we will be able to create simulations of us. | AI将到达我们能够创建模拟我们的地步. |
| 304 | Well, ABBA have just done that in their magnificent performance 40 odd years later. | ABBA在40年后的精彩表演中刚刚做到了这一点。 |
| 305 | So we will get to the stage where we can recreate this kind of almost human activity. | 因此,我们将进入一个舞台, 我们可以重新创造这种几乎人类的活动。 |
| 306 | How would we know there's a difference? | 我们怎么知道有什么区别? |
| 307 | And I think it would be illustrated quite well with the story I'm telling you, | 我想用我讲的故事来说明, |
| 308 | which is that the poor girl in the story would be saying, look, this is terrible. | 故事里那个可怜的女孩会说 这太可怕了 |
| 309 | I know I cannot harness chance in the way he does. | 我知道我无法像他那样把握机会 |
| 310 | You see, the reason I can produce all kinds of variations is that my creator | 你看,我之所以能产生各种变化 是因为我的创造者 |
| 311 | built a random number generator inside me so that I don't always do the same thing. | 在我体内建造了一个随机数生成器 这样我就不会做同样的事情了 |
| 312 | But that isn't the same as him, because he's got a purpose. | 但这和他不一样 因为他有目的 |
| 313 | That's the difference. | 即是分别. |
| 314 | Speaking about the future and sort of AI and a post-human future perhaps, | 说到未来和某种AI 和人类后的未来,也许, |
| 315 | what do you make of things like CRISPR and human enhancement | 你对CRISPR 和人类增能有什么看法? |
| 316 | through manipulating of our genetic material? | 通过操纵我们的遗传物质? |
| 317 | Are those sort of efforts misguided given your views about the role of genes in shaping our behaviour? | 鉴于你对基因在塑造我们行为中的作用的看法,这些努力是否被误导了? |
| 318 | Yes. | 对 |
| 319 | First of all, CRISPR is very interesting indeed, | 首先,CRISPR确实很有趣, |
| 320 | because I think it illustrates the point that there is natural ways | 因为我觉得这说明有自然的方法 |
| 321 | in which organisms can change their genomes. | 其中生物体可以改变它们的基因组. |
| 322 | CRISPR是做什么的? | |
| 323 | It does precisely that, and the bacteria from which it was taken do it all the time. | 它就是这么做的, 并且它从那些细菌那里得到它。 |
| 324 | So that's the first point. | 所以这是第一点。 |
| 325 | It actually illustrates part of what I'm saying. | 这实际上说明了我所说的部分内容。 |
| 326 | We, organisms, are capable of changing our genomes. | 我们生物体能够改变我们的基因组 |
| 327 | But when you come to the question, could we use it, as it were, | 但当你问到这个问题, 我们可以使用它,因为它是, |
| 328 | deliver the promises of the human genome project, even though they've not yet produced it, | 实现人类基因组计划的承诺 即使他们还没有生产出来 |
| 329 | because we can say, okay, if you could correct this gene, would we have the future reassured | 因为我们可以说,好吧,如果你能纠正这个基因, 我们会保证未来 |
| 330 | and we can then avoid all of these diseases? | 然后我们就可以避免所有这些疾病? |
| 331 | I very much doubt it, and I think it's very dangerous, | 我非常怀疑 我觉得这很危险 |
| 332 | because we do not know the function of all genes. | 因为我们不知道所有基因的功能 |
| 333 | Most genes, in any way, contribute to many functions. | 大多数基因,无论如何,都有助于许多功能. |
| 334 | So when you manipulate this one because you know it produces this disease, | 所以当你操纵这个 因为你知道它产生这种疾病, |
| 335 | what else are you doing? | 你还在干嘛? |
| 336 | And if we don't know that before we use CRISPR, | 如果我们在使用CRISPR之前不知道 |
| 337 | how do we know that modifying the germline, because that's what it amounts to, | 我们怎么知道改变细菌线, 因为这就是它意味着, |
| 338 | isn't going to produce problems in the future? | 将来会不会出问题? |
| 339 | So that's why I say that I think it's dangerous. | 所以我才说这很危险 |
| 340 | We need first to know more about the functions of genes in general | 我们首先需要更多地了解基因的功能 |
| 341 | in cooperation with each other, because they tend to work in cooperation with each other, | 由于它们往往相互合作, |
| 342 | rather than as isolated elements in the system. | 而不是系统中的孤立元素。 |
| 343 | In that case, we need to know that before we interfere with that system. | 在这种情况下,我们需要在干预这一系统之前知道这一点。 |
| 344 | It's like a watchmaker suddenly saying, well, I'm going to fix this watch | 这就像一个表匠突然说, 好了,我要修复这个表 |
| 345 | by bashing this cog and changing it this way, | 通过击打这个齿轮 并改变它的方式, |
| 346 | without understanding the finesse of what has been created. | 而不了解所造物的精细。 |
| 347 | What do you think the biggest question in microbiology is these days | 你觉得微生物学上最大的问题是 |
| 348 | that people aren't paying enough attention to and should be? | 人没有足够重视 并且应该是? |
| 349 | I think we have to get back. | 我认为我们必须回去。 |
| 350 | I'm sorry to say this because I am a physiologist. | 很抱歉说这些 因为我是生理学家 |
| 351 | We need to get back to a physiological interpretation. | 我们需要回到生理解释。 |
| 352 | Now, I wrote an article just two years ago together with a colleague, | 我两年前和一位同事写了篇文章 |
| 353 | and I called it Could Physiology Rescue Genomics? | 我称之为"生理学救援基因组学"? |
| 354 | I think we can. | 我想我们可以。 |
| 355 | We can identify where there is causality, | 我们可以确定哪里有因果关系, |
| 356 | even when it's not shown by the association level. | 即使它没有显示 在协会级别。 |
| 357 | Now, I've explained that in the case of the heart. | 现在,我已经解释了,在心脏的情况。 |
| 358 | I can do the modelling and I can demonstrate it. | 我可以做模型和演示。 |
| 359 | We did the experiments that are the basis of the model. | 我们做了作为模型基础的实验。 |
| 360 | I think that could be done much, much more. | 我认为这可以做很多,更多的。 |
| 361 | And the database to do it is already there, | 而做它的数据库已经在那里, |
| 362 | because we have hundreds of physiological models now on a site, | 因为我们有数百个生理模型 现在在一个网站, |
| 363 | which is called the CELML, it's a technical term, website. | 这被称为CELML, 这是一个技术术语,网站。 |
| 364 | So we have many of the causal models in place | 我们有很多因果模型 |
| 365 | just to simulate what the biology is showing. | 只是模拟生物学显示的 |
| 366 | We could easily, well I say easily, | 我们可以轻松地,嗯,我说轻松, |
| 367 | it takes good mathematicians and programmers to do it, | 这需要优秀的数学家和程序员来完成, |
| 368 | but we could work out why this gene association is so low | 但我们可以找出为什么这个基因关联这么低 |
| 369 | and then ask the question, | 然后问问题, |
| 370 | what would be a better way of intervening in this system, | 怎样才能更好地干预这个系统, |
| 371 | this control system? | 这个控制系统? |
| 372 | So I think that physiology could come to the rescue of evolutionary biology. | 所以我认为生理学可以拯救进化生物学。 |
| 373 | So a more holistic approach to the organism rather than a reductionist one. | 因此,对机体采取更整体的方法,而不是还原主义的方法. |
| 374 | I'm afraid we have to because reductionism has failed, yes. | 恐怕我们不得不这么做 因为简化主义失败了 是的 |
| 375 | Dennis Noble, thank you very much. | 丹尼斯·诺贝尔,非常感谢 |
| 376 | My pleasure. | 我的荣幸 |
| 377 | For more debates, talks and interviews, | 为了更多的辩论、会谈和访谈, |
| 378 | subscribe today to the Institute of Arts and Ideas at IAI TV. | 今天订阅IAI电视台的艺术与思想研究所. |
该视频共有字幕 378 条。解锁更多字幕为会员功能，请移动到 价格