诺贝尔文学奖得主安妮·卡森：人生而不公平，这是我创作的起点
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | Thank you, and welcome Anne Carson to the stage. | 谢谢 欢迎安妮·卡森登台 |
| 0:07 | I had a heavy bag with me. | 我有一个沉重的包与我。 |
| 0:09 | I carried all your books with me. | 我带着你所有的书 |
| 0:12 | So they're here. | 他们来了 |
| 0:14 | We're going to talk about them. | 我们要谈谈他们 |
| 0:19 | OK. | 摆 |
| 0:25 | How are you? | 你好吗? |
| 0:27 | Fine, thanks. | 好吧,谢谢。 |
| 0:28 | Good. | 不错 |
| 0:30 | How are you all? | 你们好吗? |
展开字幕全文（994 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Thank you, and welcome Anne Carson to the stage. | 谢谢 欢迎安妮·卡森登台 |
| 2 | I had a heavy bag with me. | 我有一个沉重的包与我。 |
| 3 | I carried all your books with me. | 我带着你所有的书 |
| 4 | So they're here. | 他们来了 |
| 5 | We're going to talk about them. | 我们要谈谈他们 |
| 6 | OK. | 摆 |
| 7 | How are you? | 你好吗? |
| 8 | Fine, thanks. | 好吧,谢谢。 |
| 9 | Good. | 不错 |
| 10 | How are you all? | 你们好吗? |
| 11 | 有 water水. | |
| 12 | I'm a little nervous. | 我有点紧张 |
| 13 | Anne Carson is the writer I love the most. | 安卡森是我最爱的作家 |
| 14 | And we have spoken on stage many times. | 我们曾多次在舞台上发言。 |
| 15 | And I'm always a little nervous. | 我总是有点紧张。 |
| 16 | But I'm very happy and honored that we are speaking again today. | 但我很高兴和荣幸 我们今天再次发言。 |
| 17 | I want to start by talking about yesterday's performance | 我想先谈谈昨天的表演 |
| 18 | that I think a lot of people saw it, stacks. | 我认为很多人都看到了,堆。 |
| 19 | Who saw the performance yesterday? | 谁看了昨天的演出? |
| 20 | Yes. | 对 |
| 21 | So a lot of people saw it. | 所以很多人都看见了. |
| 22 | Some people didn't see it. | 有人不见. |
| 23 | 你从Float读到一篇名为Stacks的散文 | |
| 24 | And your collaborator and husband, Robert Curry, | 还有你的合作者和丈夫 罗伯特·库里 |
| 25 | and another helper, stacking cardboard boxes | 和另一个助手, 堆叠纸板框 |
| 26 | on top of each other while you are reading. | 你们在阅读的时候,彼此之间是顶上的。 |
| 27 | And actually disturbing your reading. | 而实际上打扰了你的阅读。 |
| 28 | We hope. | 我们希望 |
| 29 | And I've seen this performance many times. | 我看过很多次了 |
| 30 | And in the beginning, I'm almost annoyed. | 一开始我几乎很生气 |
| 31 | Like, why is all this happening with the boxes? | 像,为什么这一切发生 与箱子? |
| 32 | Because it's disturbing. | 因为它令人不安。 |
| 33 | I want to hear the words. | 欲闻其语. |
| 34 | But then there's something very moving about it, | 但后来有很感动的东西 |
| 35 | because there's this tension between attention | 因为注意力之间的矛盾 |
| 36 | and distraction. | 和分散注意力。 |
| 37 | And these are two words that go through all of your writing. | 这是两句话 贯穿你所有写作。 |
| 38 | Can you talk about the distraction? | 你能谈谈分心的事吗? |
| 39 | Well, the distraction is mostly Curry and a helper, | 分散注意力的主要是咖哩和帮手 |
| 40 | who was Mr. Smith last night. | 谁是史密斯先生昨晚。 |
| 41 | Mr. Smith and Mr. Curry have a sort of friendly warfare | Smith先生和Curry先生有一场友好的战争 |
| 42 | with a bunch of boxes on stage. | 舞台上装着一堆盒子 |
| 43 | And originally, I can't remember why we made this piece. | 一开始,我不记得为什么我们做了这个作品。 |
| 44 | But I think we were invited by somebody to a certain space | 但我想我们是被某个人邀请到某个地方的 |
| 45 | where we thought we'd like to use the whole space, | 我们想利用整个空间 |
| 46 | not just do a normal reading. | 不只是做一个正常的阅读。 |
| 47 | And so I wrote a piece about stacks, | 所以我写了一篇关于堆叠的作品 |
| 48 | the concept of stacking things, like boxes. | 堆放东西的概念, 像盒子。 |
| 49 | And then Curry read it. | 然则咖哩读之. |
| 50 | And Curry's function, generally, in our collaboration, | 而咖哩的功能, 一般来说,在我们的合作中, |
| 51 | as we like to call it, is to add space to something. | 正如我们所希望的,就是给某些东西增加空间。 |
| 52 | Because I think of reality as a sentence, words on a page. | 因为我认为现实是句子,一页的文字. |
| 53 | He thinks of reality as a sculpture, | 他认为现实是雕塑 |
| 54 | language as a sculpture, and reality as all kinds of things | 语言作为雕塑,现实作为各种事物 |
| 55 | involving space and people and movement. | 涉及空间、人员和运动。 |
| 56 | I can't think in those ways. | 我不能这样想 |
| 57 | So he puts that stuff into the words. | 所以他把那些东西放在字里 |
| 58 | So in this case, that stuff turned out to be cardboard boxes. | 所以在这种情况下,那些东西变成了纸板盒。 |
| 59 | I forget why. | 我忘了为什么 |
| 60 | I guess we just had some in the back. | 我想我们刚刚在后面吃过 |
| 61 | And so it becomes a sort of flurry of activity. | 所以它成为了某种活动。 |
| 62 | I don't think of it as attention and distraction. | 我不认为这是注意力和分心。 |
| 63 | Although originally, I think we started to do things together, | 虽然一开始,我想我们开始一起做事, |
| 64 | he and I, because I was uneasy being | 他和我,因为我很不安 |
| 65 | the center of a stage worth the spotlight and reading | 舞台的中心 值得聚光灯和阅读 |
| 66 | blah. | |
| 67 | It always seems to me a little inadequate as an evening's | 对我来说总是有点不够当晚 |
| 68 | entertainment for you. | 娱乐给你。 |
| 69 | So I thought, well, then a good idea | 所以我想,嗯,然后一个好主意 |
| 70 | to move me to the side of the stage | 把我带到舞台的另一边 |
| 71 | and have something else happening in the middle. | 中间还有别的事情发生 |
| 72 | And then it would be interesting for people at least to watch. | 然后人们至少会感兴趣地观看。 |
| 73 | And so that's how we began to make things | 所以,我们开始做事情 |
| 74 | that had these different parts to them. | 他们有这些不同的部分。 |
| 75 | But Lynn thinks of it as more maybe | 但琳恩认为也许更多 |
| 76 | conceptually as a tension between attention | 理论上是注意力之间的紧张关系 |
| 77 | and distraction, which maybe is reasonable too. | 和分散注意力, 这也许也是合理的。 |
| 78 | You're talking about not wanting to be in the center of things. | 你在说不想成为事情的中心 |
| 79 | And that reminds me of something that Merce Cunningham, who | 这让我想起了莫西·坎宁安 |
| 80 | I know you, the great choreographer, | 我知道你,伟大的编舞, |
| 81 | Merce Cunningham, 曾经和他合作过 | |
| 82 | with the composer John Cage, I know | 与作曲家约翰·凯奇,我知道 |
| 83 | you use a lot of their work in your work and your and Curry's | 在你和咖哩的作品中,你用了很多他们的工作 |
| 84 | work. | 工作时 |
| 85 | And Merce Cunningham said something | 默西·坎宁安说了些什么 |
| 86 | that he understood what it would be to create a performance, | 他知道创造什么, |
| 87 | to create a new choreography by going away | 通过离开创造新的舞蹈 |
| 88 | from the whole idea of center stage, opening up the stage. | 从中央舞台的整个想法,打开舞台。 |
| 89 | So it's just as interesting what happens over there, | 那边发生的事也很有趣 |
| 90 | and what happens over there, and what | 那边发生了什么,什么 |
| 91 | happens over there. | 发生在那里。 |
| 92 | And it seems to me that that's a little bit | 在我看来,这是一点点 |
| 93 | about what you're saying. | 关于你在说什么。 |
| 94 | I think so. | 我想是这样。 |
| 95 | I think, well, also when we started to work together, | 我想 当我们开始合作时 |
| 96 | Curry and I, he introduced me to John Cage's work and thinking. | 库里和我,他介绍我 John Cage的作品和思考。 |
| 97 | And John Cage influenced Merce Cunningham in a major way. | 而约翰·凯奇对默西·坎宁安的影响很大. |
| 98 | And one of their notions was, as Lynn says, | 他们的一个想法是,正如Lynn所说, |
| 99 | to move the focus of your attention | 来转移你的注意力 |
| 100 | to the margins of everything happening, | 在一切发生的边缘, |
| 101 | not have it just be focused on some person in the middle. | 不是只关注中间的某个人 |
| 102 | So his dancers don't face always you. | 所以他的舞者不会一直面对你 |
| 103 | They face different ways. | 他们面临不同的方式。 |
| 104 | And they have almost no expression on their faces. | 他们几乎没有表情 |
| 105 | And they don't try to focus your thought on a point. | 他们不想把注意力集中在一点上 |
| 106 | It moves around. | 它到处移动。 |
| 107 | So I think for a performance of writing that's disturbing, | 所以我觉得写作的表演让人很不安 |
| 108 | as you say, but also it breaks up the event | 就像你说的,但是它也打破了事件 |
| 109 | so that you can think into it at different places. | 以便你们在不同的地方思考。 |
| 110 | My tendency, because I've been a professor all my life, | 我的趋势 因为我一辈子都是教授 |
| 111 | my tendency is to want to lecture. | 我的倾向是想讲课。 |
| 112 | And lecturing is me having a truth. | 说教就是讲真话 |
| 113 | And I insist that you know this truth. | 我坚持你应该知道真相 |
| 114 | And you know it in these words I'm going to give you. | 你知道我会给你这些话 |
| 115 | In no other way. | 以无他法. |
| 116 | And that's really tedious. | 这真的很无聊。 |
| 117 | And also it isn't really thinking | 也没有真正思考 |
| 118 | because it doesn't move. | 因为它不动。 |
| 119 | Your mind wants to move. | 你的思想想移动。 |
| 120 | And the best thing a work of art can do | 艺术作品能做的最好的事 |
| 121 | is take your mind with it moving somewhere that you never | 是在你脑海里 移动的地方 你从来没有 |
| 122 | expected to move. | 预计会移动。 |
| 123 | So I think that's what we're fond of in Merce Cunningham | 所以,我想这就是我们喜欢的 在默西・坎宁安 |
| 124 | and John Cage, or one thing. | 和约翰凯奇,或一件事。 |
| 125 | Didn't Gertrude Stein also say something | 格特鲁德·斯坦恩也说过些什么 |
| 126 | about moving things away from the center? | 关于把事情 远离中心? |
| 127 | Yes. | 对 |
| 128 | Can we remember that quote? | 我们能记住这句话吗? |
| 129 | Let's see. | 让我看看。 |
| 130 | I can't remember it. | 我不记得了 |
| 131 | But something about moving away from. | 但有些东西是远离。 |
| 132 | Yeah, she says that several different ways, I think. | 是的,她说几种不同的方式,我想。 |
| 133 | It was important for her too. | 这对她也很重要。 |
| 134 | But I mean, that's a good illustration | 但是,我意思是,这是一个很好的插图 |
| 135 | of how hopeless it is to try to do this. | 试图这样做是多么无望。 |
| 136 | Because when you think Gertrude Stein, | 因为当你认为格特鲁德·斯坦因, |
| 137 | you don't think the margins of other people around her. | 你不认为她身边其他人的边缘。 |
| 138 | You think of her monumental self | 你想想她那伟大的自我 |
| 139 | in the middle of your attention. | 在你的注意力中间。 |
| 140 | So it's a strange and hopeless project to lose the self, | 因此,这是一个奇怪和无望的项目 失去自我, |
| 141 | especially in the middle of making art works. | 特别是在制作艺术作品的中间. |
| 142 | But we keep trying. | 但我们一直在努力 |
| 143 | I'd like to read something that you've | 我想读些你读过的东西 |
| 144 | written on the back of your collection of essays | 写在你的论文集的背面 |
| 145 | called Wrong Norma. | "错诺玛" |
| 146 | Wrong Norma is a collection of writings | 错的诺玛是一本文集 |
| 147 | about different things, like Joseph Conrad, Guantanamo, | 约瑟康拉德 关塔那摩 |
| 148 | Flaubert, Snow, Poverty, Roget's Thesaurus, My Dad, | 弗劳伯特 雪 贫穷 罗格的词库 我爸爸 |
| 149 | Saturday Night. | 周六晚间 |
| 150 | The pieces are not linked. | 片段没有关联. |
| 151 | That's why I've called them wrong. | 所以我才说错了 |
| 152 | That doesn't make sense to you? | 这不合理吗? |
| 153 | Well, actually it does. | 其实是的 |
| 154 | But I love your preoccupation with wrong. | 但我喜欢你对错误的关心 |
| 155 | But can you talk about it? | 但你能谈谈吗? |
| 156 | Well, sure. | 当然 |
| 157 | I think the word wrong, a great word, | 我认为这个词是错误的, 一个伟大的词, |
| 158 | came to me many years ago when somebody was asking me. | 几年前有人问我的时候来找我 |
| 159 | Because I was born in Canada, but I | 因为我出生在加拿大,但我 |
| 160 | live now in the United States and Iceland. | 住在美国和冰岛 |
| 161 | But I came to the United States to teach there. | 但我是来美国教书的 |
| 162 | And people would ask me, inevitably at cocktail parties, | 人们会问我, 不可避免的在鸡尾酒派对, |
| 163 | so what's the difference between life in Canada | 所以加拿大的生活有什么区别 |
| 164 | and life in the United States? | 在美国的生活呢? |
| 165 | And I never knew what to say, because they don't | 我不知道该说什么,因为他们不 |
| 166 | want the truth about that. | 想知道真相吗? |
| 167 | I took to saying, well, Canadians | 我说,加拿大人 |
| 168 | are different than you. | 跟你不一样 |
| 169 | You rule the world. | 你统治着世界 |
| 170 | Canadians are always polite but wrong. | 加拿大人总是有礼貌,但错误。 |
| 171 | And that seemed to me true at the time. | 这对我来说是真实的。 |
| 172 | It still does. | 现在还是这样 |
| 173 | But anyway, I thought, well, that's me. | 但无论如何,我想,嗯,这就是我。 |
| 174 | What I'm doing as this Canadian person in America | 我在美国做这个加拿大人 |
| 175 | is being wrong most of the time. | 大部分时间都是错的 |
| 176 | And it comes out in ways like this. | 以这种方式出现。 |
| 177 | A collection of pieces of writing | 文笔集 |
| 178 | is often thought to be a coherent whole, an experience | 通常被认为是一个连贯的整体, 一个经验 |
| 179 | that works one piece after another | 一个接一个地工作 |
| 180 | to accumulate into a central idea. | 积累成一个中心思想。 |
| 181 | But mine don't. | 但是,我的没有。 |
| 182 | So there that is, I thought. | 就是这样,我想。 |
| 183 | And they always want you to say something on a book, | 他们总是希望你在书上说些什么 |
| 184 | something embarrassing about how famous you are. | 你有多出名有点尴尬 |
| 185 | So I thought, well, instead of that, | 所以我想,嗯,而不是那样, |
| 186 | I could just tell people what they're getting into. | 我可以告诉别人他们要卷入什么 |
| 187 | When they read the book, that would save a lot of trouble. | 当他们读了这本书,那会节省很多麻烦. |
| 188 | About things being side by side or stacked or wrong, | 关于事物 并肩或堆叠或错误, |
| 189 | not in the center and the margins, | 不在中央和边缘, |
| 190 | you write in the book about a visit to the lake and swimming. | 你在书里写了去湖边游泳的事 |
| 191 | This is the essay called One Equals One. | 这是一篇名为"一个平等"的论文。 |
| 192 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 193 | And you write about swimming. | 你写游泳。 |
| 194 | You're a swimmer, right? | 你是个游泳运动员,对吧? |
| 195 | Sometimes, yeah. | 有时候,是的。 |
| 196 | You write a lot about water and swimming. | 你写了很多关于水和游泳。 |
| 197 | And also here. | 还有这里 |
| 198 | It's a beautiful essay. | 文艺优美. |
| 199 | And then you write about the lake ending to the lake, | 然后你写到湖的尽头 |
| 200 | the swim ending. | 游泳结束。 |
| 201 | And then you write, filthy families and souls in despair, | 然后,你写,肮脏的家庭和灵魂 在绝望中, |
| 202 | pressed flat against one another in the grip to survive, | 为求生存而互相压扁 |
| 203 | uncountable arms and legs, torn open eyes, | 不计其数的手臂和腿, 撕开的眼睛, |
| 204 | locked all night in a train waiting for dawn, | 整晚被锁在火车上等待黎明 |
| 205 | a scene so much the antithesis of her own mourning, | 一个场景如此的反面 她自己的哀悼, |
| 206 | she cannot think it. | 她不能这么想。 |
| 207 | And then you write this sentence. | 然后写此句. |
| 208 | What sense it makes for these two mornings | 这两个早晨有什么意义 |
| 209 | to exist side by side in the world where we live? | 并肩生存在我们生活的世界里? |
| 210 | Should this be framed as a question? | 应将此作为问题吗? |
| 211 | Would not be answerable by philosophy or poetry or finance | 无法用哲学、诗歌或金融来回答 |
| 212 | or the shallows or the deeps of her own mind, she fears. | 或浅或深 她自己的思想,她害怕。 |
| 213 | Now, I would have loved to read that sentence | 现在,我很想读这句话 |
| 214 | five more times about the two mornings | 两次早上再来五次 |
| 215 | existing side by side. | 并存。 |
| 216 | I want everyone to go home and read that essay | 我要大家回家看那篇散文 |
| 217 | and read that sentence. | 读读这句话 |
| 218 | But can you talk a little bit about the two mornings, | 但你能谈谈两个早上的事吗? |
| 219 | the two opposites, the harmony and the terror | 和谐与恐怖 |
| 220 | existing side by side? | 是否同时存在? |
| 221 | Well, the physical situation out of which that sentence | 那么,身体状况 其中的句子 |
| 222 | arises in that story is that I had a lovely morning | 在故事里我有一个可爱的早晨 |
| 223 | by myself swimming in the ocean | 一个人在海里游泳 |
| 224 | and then went home and read the newspaper. | 然后回家看报纸 |
| 225 | And it was at the time of, I think, | 这是在,我想, |
| 226 | the Syrian exodus from Syria. | 叙利亚人从叙利亚外流 |
| 227 | People were trying to get out of Syria and go places. | 人们试图离开叙利亚,去任何地方。 |
| 228 | And there were stories in the paper about people | 报纸上有关于人的故事 |
| 229 | trying to go on boats, inadequate boats, | 试图坐船, 不足的船, |
| 230 | and drowning and other people in very crowded, | 溺水和溺水的民众, |
| 231 | what do you call them, trains by railway. | 你叫他们什么 铁路上的火车 |
| 232 | And so it seemed to me, it always seems to me | 所以在我看来 总是这样 |
| 233 | when contemplating the news, as we call it, | 当想到我们所说的新闻时, |
| 234 | how you can read a story about tragedy and trauma | 如何阅读一个故事 关于悲剧和创伤 |
| 235 | and enter into the sorrow of that | 并陷入悲伤之中 |
| 236 | and then close the paper and go make toast. | 然后把报纸关上,去敬酒 |
| 237 | You know, how do we do that? | 我们该怎么做? |
| 238 | How do we just let non-existence be right beside existence | 我们如何让不存在就存在 |
| 239 | and it's okay? | 没关系吗? |
| 240 | And I don't know how we do, but we do, we have to. | 我不知道我们怎么做 但我们必须这么做 |
| 241 | It's what we call going on with life. | 这就是我们所说的生活。 |
| 242 | But it always seems to me a problem that doesn't resolve | 但在我看来 问题总是解决不了的 |
| 243 | no matter how you think into it. | 无论你怎么想 |
| 244 | Has this been, yeah, go. | 这已经,是的,去。 |
| 245 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 246 | Now I was thinking about Danez Smith, | 现在我在想丹妮丝・史密斯 |
| 247 | who did an interview here a couple days ago. | 几天前在这里接受采访的 |
| 248 | He was talking about this in a more contemporary way. | 他以更现代的方式谈论这个问题。 |
| 249 | He was talking about the difficulty of being him, himself. | 他在说做他的难处 |
| 250 | He's from Minneapolis, he's black and an activist poet. | 他是明尼阿波利斯人,他是黑人,是一名活跃的诗人. |
| 251 | So in his work, he describes things like the death | 所以在他的作品中, 他描述的东西 像死亡 |
| 252 | of people in Minneapolis shot by the police | 在明尼阿波利斯被警察枪杀的人 |
| 253 | and he makes a nice poem out of it and he performs it | 他用这首诗写了一首好诗 |
| 254 | and people say, good poem, and then what does he do | 人们说,好诗, 然后他做什么 |
| 255 | with that? | 用那个? |
| 256 | It's like we all go home thinking, well, we checked that box. | 我们好像都回家去想 我们检查了那个盒子 |
| 257 | We dealt with the police shooting people in Minneapolis | 我们处理过明尼阿波利斯的警察枪击案 |
| 258 | because we listened to this poem and that's okay now. | 因为我们听了这首诗 现在没事了 |
| 259 | We go on to the next problem. | 我们继续探讨下一个问题。 |
| 260 | But it isn't okay, it's still just there | 但它不是很好,它还在那里 |
| 261 | and that's what poets like him have to conjure with | 这就是像他这样的诗人所必须面对的 |
| 262 | all the time, that those two things being just there | 一直以来,那两样东西就在那里 |
| 263 | and what does he do with that in the presence of you | 当着你的面 他拿它做什么 |
| 264 | and what does he do with that after he goes home? | 他回家后会怎么处理? |
| 265 | Is this also the subject or the themes | 这是主题还是主题 |
| 266 | that go through all your writing, these things knocking | 这些东西敲门 |
| 267 | against each other and not being able to exist side by side? | 对抗对方,却不能并肩生存? |
| 268 | Yeah, that resistance. | 是啊,那个抵抗。 |
| 269 | Yeah, it's a kind of resistance, a reality | 是啊,这是一种抵抗,一个现实 |
| 270 | to the representations of reality, I guess you would say. | 我想你会说,对现实的描述。 |
| 271 | There's a collision which, yeah, what's the result of that | 有个碰撞,是的,结果是什么 |
| 272 | is that we live in doubt about whether we can possibly | 就是我们生活在怀疑中 我们是否能够 |
| 273 | ever be good people. | 永远是好人。 |
| 274 | I was just reading, I mean, this is really off the cuff | 我只是在看,我的意思是, 这是真的脱下手铐 |
| 275 | but Lynn elicits that method of thinking. | 但琳恩引领了这种思考方法. |
| 276 | Just thinking today, reading something about Descartes | 今天想看笛卡尔的事 |
| 277 | and Descartes said this famous sentence, | 笛卡尔说这个著名的句子, |
| 278 | cogito ergo sum, I think, therefore I am, | 我想,所以我是, |
| 279 | which everybody knows and learns in school | 人人都知道 在学校学习 |
| 280 | but if you look at the sentence, really, it says | 但是如果你看 句子,真的,它说 |
| 281 | dubito ergo cogito ergo um,我怀疑,因此我认为, | |
| 282 | therefore I am, so that. | 所以,我是这样。 |
| 283 | Oh, really? | 是吗? |
| 284 | Yes, isn't that surprising? | 是的,这不令人惊讶吗? |
| 285 | I didn't know it either because I never looked it up. | 我也不知情,因为我没查过 |
| 286 | Explosions going on in my head now, I didn't know. | 我脑子里有爆炸,我不知道 |
| 287 | 全世界T恤上的Cogito ergo总和 | |
| 288 | but dubito has a bad press. | 但杜比托的媒体不好 |
| 289 | I mean, because, thank you, thank you, Descartes. | 我的意思是,因为,谢谢你,谢谢你,笛卡尔。 |
| 290 | So that makes me, that's very provocative. | 因此,我,这是非常挑衅的。 |
| 291 | Everything starts in doubt or it also could mean hesitation | 一切都在疑惑中开始 否则也意味着犹豫 |
| 292 | but same idea. | 但同样的想法。 |
| 293 | And hesitation, you have written a whole essay | 犹豫不决,你写了一整篇论文 |
| 294 | called On Hesitation. | 叫做"犹豫不决" |
| 295 | I did write an essay on hesitation. | 我写过一篇关于犹豫的论文 |
| 296 | What is it without hesitation that you grapple with? | 你毫不犹豫地对付什么? |
| 297 | That's a good question. | 问曰. |
| 298 | I think I wrote the lecture in order to investigate | 我想我写演讲是为了调查 |
| 299 | that question and it really got nowhere | 这个问题,真的没有结果 |
| 300 | but the interesting thing about that lecture was, | 但那个演讲很有趣, |
| 301 | I did it because I got invited to do a lecture | 我这么做是因为我被邀请做一个讲座 |
| 302 | at the Prado Museum in Madrid and I thought, | 在马德里的普拉多博物馆 我想 |
| 303 | whoa, that's cool, I'm really a cool person now | 哇,这很酷,我现在真的很酷 |
| 304 | and then I wrote this lecture and lectures, | 然后我写了这个演讲和讲座, |
| 305 | they start somewhere with a question | 他们从某个地方问起 |
| 306 | and then they go God knows where | 然后他们去 上帝知道在哪里 |
| 307 | because thought has its own paths. | 因为思想有自己的途径。 |
| 308 | End up being a lecture about chipmunks | 最后成为花栗鼠的讲座 |
| 309 | which they don't have in Spain. | 这是他们在西班牙没有的。 |
| 310 | So the whole underpinning of the thought | 所以思想的整个基础 |
| 311 | was just pretty remote for them but anyway. | 对他们来说很遥远,但无论如何。 |
| 312 | But also about Goya's dog, I seem to remember. | 我还记得戈雅的狗 |
| 313 | Yeah, Goya enters into, I tried to put in Spanish stuff | 是啊,戈雅进入, 我试图在西班牙语的东西 |
| 314 | after I realized it was all about chipmunks. | 当我意识到这都是花栗鼠的事 |
| 315 | So fortunately Goya has a painting. | 故幸高雅有画. |
| 316 | You've probably seen this painting. | 你可能看过这幅画 |
| 317 | When you look at it, you think it's a detail of a painting | 当你看着它,你认为这是一幅画的细节 |
| 318 | because it's a huge sort of gold colored canvas | 因为它是一个巨大的金色画布 |
| 319 | with down in this corner, a little dog's head. | 就在这个角落里 一只小狗的头 |
| 320 | Just the head of the dog looking with some expression | 只是狗头 看着有些表情 |
| 321 | that people all see differently, | 人们都视而不见, |
| 322 | looking up at the hole above, the space above. | 上面的洞,上面的空间。 |
| 323 | Fascinating painting but we digress. | 令人着迷的画,但是我们分裂。 |
| 324 | Well, that's what we're supposed to do, so good. | 好吧,这就是我们应该做的,所以很好。 |
| 325 | I wanna go back a little bit to float. | 我想回去一点漂浮。 |
| 326 | It has stuff on it, I'm sorry. | 它有东西在上面,我很抱歉。 |
| 327 | Peanut butter? | 花生酱? |
| 328 | Well, something. | 嗯,东西。 |
| 329 | It's in little pamphlets. | 这是在小小册子。 |
| 330 | There's something about, and I wanna come back to that. | 有件事,我想回到那个。 |
| 331 | Several of your books are, I mean, they're physical objects. | 你的几本书都是实物 |
| 332 | They're physical objects, art objects or objects. | 它们是实物,艺术品或物品. |
| 333 | I remember first time I was, | 我记得我第一次是, |
| 334 | you and Curry introduced me to float. | 你和咖哩介绍我漂浮。 |
| 335 | I think Curry sort of did a kind of very dramatic gesture | 我觉得咖喱做了一种非常戏剧性的姿态 |
| 336 | where he sort of threw all the pamphlets over the audience | 他把所有的小册子都扔到观众身上 |
| 337 | because you can do that too. | 因为你也可以做到这一点。 |
| 338 | You can read it and you can throw it. | 能诵而掷之. |
| 339 | There is an essay in float called Uncle Falling. | 有一篇名为"法林叔叔"的散文 |
| 340 | It's one of my many favorite essays. | 这是我最喜欢的论文之一 |
| 341 | And that has an autobiographical theme to it. | 这有一个自传性的主题。 |
| 342 | And I was wondering if you could read a little bit | 我在想你能不能读读 |
| 343 | from Uncle Falling. | 从叔伐林. |
| 344 | It's about your Uncle Harry. | 这是关于你叔叔哈里。 |
| 345 | Yeah, great uncle, my dad's uncle. | 是啊,伟大的叔叔,我爸爸的叔叔。 |
| 346 | Great uncle, and what was it about Uncle Harry? | 伟大的叔叔,和它是什么 关于叔叔哈里? |
| 347 | Uncle Harry was a hermit. | 哈利叔叔是个隐士 |
| 348 | He lived in the northern woods of Canada | 他住在加拿大北部的树林里 |
| 349 | by himself with a dog and two horses. | 一个人带着一条狗和两匹马 |
| 350 | And he was, I don't know, was he crazy? | 我不知道 他疯了吗? |
| 351 | He was a very inward person, very, | 他是一个非常内向的人,非常, |
| 352 | had his own view of reality. | 有他自己对现实的看法。 |
| 353 | And he just didn't wanna live with other people | 他只是不想和别人住在一起 |
| 354 | so he withdrew to a farm and died there. | 于是他退到一个农场,在那里死去。 |
| 355 | But he got dementia at the end of his life | 但他在临终时得了痴呆症 |
| 356 | and that was sad. | 这是可悲的。 |
| 357 | But until that time he was a really admirable person | 但在那之前 他是一个非常令人钦佩的人 |
| 358 | and he was a figure in my childhood | 他是我童年时代的人物 |
| 359 | because he was always there on the farm | 因为他总是在农场里 |
| 360 | when we went for summer vacations as we did. | 当我们去暑假时 就像我们一样 |
| 361 | He didn't speak much. | 他没说什么 |
| 362 | He was deaf and he got deaf by jumping into the lake | 他又聋又聋 跳进湖里 |
| 363 | when he was a kid and burst his eardrum. | 当他还是个孩子时, 并打破了他的耳膜。 |
| 364 | And because he was deaf, I guess he didn't find it | 因为他是聋子 我想他没找到 |
| 365 | measurable to mix with other people. | 与其他人混为一谈 |
| 366 | So, but I think he wouldn't have wanted | 所以,但我想他不会想要 |
| 367 | to live with other people anyway. | 和别人一起生活 |
| 368 | However, yeah, he was deaf and kind of sad | 但是,是的,他是聋子 有点伤心 |
| 369 | but always helpful. | 但总是有帮助。 |
| 370 | Do you wanna stand home? | 你想站在家里吗? |
| 371 | No, I don't wanna stand in space. | 不,我不想站在空间里。 |
| 372 | No. | 没有 |
| 373 | All by myself. | 我一个人 |
| 374 | Oh, just sit. | 哦,只是坐着。 |
| 375 | I'm lonely, the loneliness, yeah. | 我很孤独,孤独,是的。 |
| 376 | This is about him, about Uncle Harry. | 这是关于他,关于哈里叔叔。 |
| 377 | It's called The Loneliness. | 名为孤独. |
| 378 | Was he lonely? | 他寂寞吗? |
| 379 | I don't know. | 师曰. |
| 380 | Nine months of the year he lived alone on a farm | 一年中九个月他独自住在农场里 |
| 381 | in the north of Ontario. | 在安大略省北部。 |
| 382 | A near town was five miles away, a near neighbor uncertain. | 一个附近的小镇在五英里外 一个近邻不确定 |
| 383 | Most land around the lake had been parceled out | 湖边大部分土地都被封了 |
| 384 | in cottage lots years ago. | 几年前在小屋里 |
| 385 | Cottagers are seasonal. | 鸡尾酒是季节性的。 |
| 386 | Some come for Christmas or a weekend in winter. | 有人来过圣诞节或冬天的周末 |
| 387 | Most board up their cottages on the last day of August | 在八月的最后一天 大部分人登上他们的小屋 |
| 388 | and reappear in June. | 并在6月重新出现。 |
| 389 | It was a long, deep winter. | 这是一个漫长,深冬。 |
| 390 | Harry had by himself with his dog and his two horses | 哈利自己带着他的狗和两匹马 |
| 391 | and his subscription to the National Geographic Society | 并订阅国家地理学会 |
| 392 | magazine. | 杂志。 |
| 393 | Snow drifted up to the eaves. | 白雪飘向a. |
| 394 | His hay wagon got him to town every two weeks for supplies. | 他的干草车每两周送他到镇上供货. |
| 395 | He ate tins of corned beef hash and green peas and coffee. | 他吃了一罐玉米牛肉和绿豆和咖啡 |
| 396 | He liked now and then an O. Henry chocolate bar. | 他偶尔喜欢O. Henry巧克力酒吧 |
| 397 | Until probably the middle of May he lived in two rooms | 直到五月中 他住在两个房间 |
| 398 | of the farmhouse, namely the kitchen, which had the stove | 农舍,即有炉子的厨房 |
| 399 | and the bedroom directly above, which had the stovepipe. | 和正上方的卧室 上面有炉子管 |
| 400 | Other rooms whispered with ice. | 其他房间用冰块低语 |
| 401 | And then three months in summer, | 然后三个月的夏天, |
| 402 | Harry's world filled suddenly up. | 哈利的世界突然充满了。 |
| 403 | The cottagers came back and so did we. | 家庭客人们回来了,我们也是。 |
| 404 | Who's we? | 我们是谁? |
| 405 | Harry was the brother of my father's mother, Ethel. | 哈利是我父亲母亲艾瑟尔的弟弟. |
| 406 | Ethel had four children, including my father, | Ethel有四个孩子 包括我父亲 |
| 407 | and they all had children and the children all had friends. | 他们都有孩子 孩子们都有朋友 |
| 408 | Week after week in summer, these people arrived | 周而复始的夏天 这些人来了 |
| 409 | in groups of three to 10. | 分为三组至十组。 |
| 410 | The idea was to help Harry bring in the hay. | 想法是帮助哈利 把干草。 |
| 411 | This was the phrase they used | 这是他们用的词 |
| 412 | and to enjoy a vacation at the lake. | 在湖边度假 |
| 413 | This idea was not Harry's. | 这个主意不是哈利的 |
| 414 | I never heard him comment on it. | 我从来没有听到他对此的评论。 |
| 415 | He did comment on the inability of my father | 他确实评论过我父亲的无能 |
| 416 | and my uncles to master scything technique. | 和我的叔叔们 掌握囊字技术。 |
| 417 | Harry could scythe 100 square meters of hay | 哈利可以把100平方米的干草塞进去 |
| 418 | in three and a half minutes, leaving a patch | 三分钟半后留下补丁 |
| 419 | as level as his mustache with fallen stalks unbruised. | 就像他的胡子和掉下来的树枝一样 |
| 420 | There was frustration and a red-faced man | 有挫折感和一个红脸人 |
| 421 | in the hay field many an afternoon. | 在干草场里,一个下午很多。 |
| 422 | Harry remained unfailingly polite to everyone. | Harry对每个人都一直很礼貌 |
| 423 | So did the dog, whose name was Shep, | 那只叫谢普的狗也是 |
| 424 | although it was a succession of dogs, | 虽然这是一连串狗, |
| 425 | and so did the horses, Prince and Florence, | 马匹、王子和佛罗伦萨也是 |
| 426 | who were immortal at that time. | 那时是永生的 |
| 427 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 428 | You know, reading through your work again, | 你知道,读一遍你的工作, |
| 429 | and re-reading this summer, | 并重读今年夏天, |
| 430 | it strikes me how much of your writing | 你的写作让我印象深刻 |
| 431 | is seemingly autobiographical. | 看来是自传 |
| 432 | It's not the first thing that I have thought about with you | 这不是我第一次想到你 |
| 433 | that, you know, there's snitches here and there, | 你知道,这里和那里都有告密者 |
| 434 | but this time in reading, you know, | 但这次在读,你知道, |
| 435 | there's the mother and daughter in Glass Essay. | 格拉斯艾赛有母女 |
| 436 | The mother appears again, | 母亲再次出现, |
| 437 | although that's maybe not autobiographical, I don't know, | 虽然这也许不是自传, 我不知道, |
| 438 | and in the autobiography of Red and Red Dock, | 在"红码头"和"红码头"的自传中 |
| 439 | there's the mother. | 这是母亲。 |
| 440 | And of course, here's the great-uncle. | 当然,这是大叔 |
| 441 | Your dad appears from time to time. | 你爸爸不时出现 |
| 442 | Husbands, the beautiful husband. | 丈夫,美丽的丈夫。 |
| 443 | You know, there's debates from time and time again | 你知道,有辩论 从一次又一次 |
| 444 | about autobiography and writing, | 关于自传和写作, |
| 445 | and what is your relationship | 你们是什么关系 |
| 446 | to writing autobiographically? | 写自传? |
| 447 | I'm appalled by it. | 我对此感到震惊。 |
| 448 | And every time I sit down to write anything, | 每次我坐下来写任何东西 |
| 449 | I'm determined not to do that. | 我决心不这样做。 |
| 450 | But really, you have no other story to tell, you know? | 但实际上,你没有别的故事要说,你知道吗? |
| 451 | Or no other understanding of reality | 或者对现实没有其他理解 |
| 452 | except the one you've lived, | 除了你活过的那个 |
| 453 | so it keeps coming up. | 所以,它不断上升。 |
| 454 | But yeah, I don't like it. | 但我不喜欢这样 |
| 455 | I don't know what to do about that. | 我不知道该怎么办 |
| 456 | I guess now we have autofiction, | 我想我们现在有自传了 |
| 457 | which is supposed to be somehow free of this question, | 应该是没有这个问题, |
| 458 | but I don't understand why. | 但我不明白为什么 |
| 459 | Do you? | 是吗? |
| 460 | I think I read somewhere that you, | 我想我读到的地方,你, |
| 461 | well, I read two quotes, two different interviews. | 我读了两篇引言 两次不同的访谈 |
| 462 | One where you were asked this question, | 一个你被问到这个问题的地方 |
| 463 | and you said, well, I'm not Knausgård, which I agree. | 你说,好吧,我不是Knausgård, 我同意。 |
| 464 | And then in another essay or another interview, | 在另一篇论文或另一篇采访中 |
| 465 | you said, well, I have no imagination. | 你说,嗯,我没有想象力。 |
| 466 | That's also true. | 亦如是说. |
| 467 | I don't like to make up things. | 亦不乐于虚构. |
| 468 | Is that true? | 是吗? |
| 469 | Yeah, basically that's true. | 是啊,基本上这是真的。 |
| 470 | I can't make up stories. | 我不能编故事。 |
| 471 | I have friends who are novelists, | 我有朋友是小说家 |
| 472 | and they just wake up every day with a story in their mind | 他们每天都在想着一个故事 |
| 473 | of what they could make a novel out of. | 他们能用什么做小说 |
| 474 | I've never had that. | 我从来没有有过这种感觉。 |
| 475 | But if I stub my toe on the way to the bathroom, | 但如果我在去洗手间的路上踩到脚趾 |
| 476 | then I can write about that because it just happened. | 然后,我可以写 这一点,因为它刚刚发生。 |
| 477 | It's real. | 真如实相. |
| 478 | Just two kinds of people. | 只见二种人. |
| 479 | It's lovely in the Glass Essay, | 在格拉斯艾赛里很可爱 |
| 480 | which is out in Danish now recently in a new edition, | 以丹麦语出版的新版本 |
| 481 | Glass Ironing God. | 玻璃铁神. |
| 482 | I mean, the description of the mother | 我的意思是,母亲的描述 |
| 483 | and the grownup daughter is just so beautiful | 长大的女儿是如此美丽 |
| 484 | with the mother, and it's small things, | 和母亲, 这是小事, |
| 485 | how the mother sits at the breakfast table | 妈妈怎么坐在早餐桌边 |
| 486 | and things she does making breakfast. | 还有她做早餐的事 |
| 487 | So it's these little things that are poignant. | 所以这些小东西是孔雀。 |
| 488 | Yeah, I guess that's true. | 是的,我想这是真的。 |
| 489 | I guess I think that's what the task of a writer is, | 我想这就是作家的任务 |
| 490 | to just notice small things, | 只是注意到一些小东西, |
| 491 | because noticing large things is for people like Descartes. | 因为注意到大事情是像笛卡尔这样的人。 |
| 492 | Basically, and I can't do that, | 基本上,我不能做到这一点, |
| 493 | but noticing small things makes a difference. | 但注意到一些小事却有区别 |
| 494 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 495 | Because mostly what we do, | 因为我们主要做的事情 |
| 496 | especially in relation to other people, | 特别是针对其他人, |
| 497 | and even more especially in relation to the other people | 特别是就其他人而言 |
| 498 | in our family, is to assume that we know them | 在我们家,就是假设我们认识他们 |
| 499 | and sort of smear across them in daily life. | 和在他们的日常生活中抹黑。 |
| 500 | Mother's always in the other room | 妈妈总是在另一个房间 |
| 501 | complaining about something. | 抱怨着什么 |
| 502 | And I've learned, I mean, it's only taken 74 years, | 我学到了,我的意思是, 它只是花了74年, |
| 503 | I've learned to pay attention to things people do anyway, | 我学会了注意别人做的事 |
| 504 | things people do or how they do things | 事物 人们做什么或如何做事情 |
| 505 | outside of the stereotype I already have of them. | 除了我已经有的刻板印象之外 |
| 506 | And then it's always surprising. | 然则常惊. |
| 507 | It's always surprising. | 总是惊异. |
| 508 | I find this is true not just with the family, | 我觉得这不光是家人的事 |
| 509 | but with I've been doing, | 但随着我一直在做, |
| 510 | Lynn wants to talk about this later, | Lynn想晚点再谈这个 |
| 511 | I've been going to boxing class lately. | 我最近上拳击课了 |
| 512 | And a boxing class is a kind of constant core of people | 和拳击课是一种 恒核心的人 |
| 513 | who go all the time and we sort of | 他们总是去 我们排序 |
| 514 | have come to know each other. | 已经相识了 |
| 515 | And they're very different people than me, | 他们跟我完全不同 |
| 516 | because I've always been an academic, | 因为我一直是个学者 |
| 517 | so I'm basically an arrogant intellectual | 所以我基本上是一个傲慢的知识分子 |
| 518 | thinking I'm a little better than everybody else | 觉得我比别人好一点 |
| 519 | because I've read all these books. | 因为我看过这些书 |
| 520 | And these people in the boxing class | 拳击课上的人 |
| 521 | are not mostly academics or intellectuals. | 大多不是学者或知识分子。 |
| 522 | In fact, they don't read at all as far as I can see. | 事实上,他们完全不读 在我看来。 |
| 523 | They watch TV and they come to boxing class. | 他们看电视,然后上拳击课 |
| 524 | And I could dismiss them therefore | 我可以因此开除他们 |
| 525 | because they're not like me. | 因为他们不像我 |
| 526 | And I gradually learned not to do that. | 我逐渐学会了不要这样做。 |
| 527 | And when you don't do that, | 当你不这样做, |
| 528 | then you begin to see that they're each | 然后你开始看到他们各自 |
| 529 | actually pretty unique, probably crazy, | 其实很独特,可能很疯狂 |
| 530 | and willing to be nice to you. | 并愿意对你好。 |
| 531 | So I just, that kind of attention to details | 所以,我只是,那种关注细节 |
| 532 | leads you somewhere truer than generalizing. | 把你引向比概括更真实的地方 |
| 533 | Since you now mentioned boxing, | 既然你现在提到拳击, |
| 534 | you suggested actually backstage | 你建议在后台 |
| 535 | that if we run out of things to say, | 如果我们没有话要说 |
| 536 | we could always box. | 我们可以永远打拳击。 |
| 537 | But Currie, you have written about boxing also. | 但你也写过拳击 |
| 538 | And I want you to read from that essay | 我要你从那篇文章中读出来 |
| 539 | in London Review of Books. | 《伦敦书评》 |
| 540 | It's one of your latest essays. | 这是你最新的论文之一。 |
| 541 | And it's a remarkable essay also about attention | 这也是一篇令人瞩目的论文 |
| 542 | and about boxing and handwriting. | 还有拳击和笔迹 |
| 543 | But your collaborator and Currie gave, sent me a picture. | 但你的合作者和Currie给我发了张照片 |
| 544 | We have two of them. | 我们有两个 |
| 545 | I should emphasize this was not my idea. | 我应该强调这不是我的主意。 |
| 546 | I think we should raffle these off at the end. | 我认为我们应该把这些 关闭在最后。 |
| 547 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 548 | Give the money to the Louisiana Museum. | 把钱交给路易斯安那州博物馆 |
| 549 | Yes. | 对 |
| 550 | So Currie's showing everyone, and here's another one. | Currie在给大家看 还有一个 |
| 551 | And I'm gonna put it here. | 我会把它放在这里。 |
| 552 | Anyway, yeah, I started to do boxing class | 总之 我开始上拳击课了 |
| 553 | because, I don't know, maybe you know this. | 因为,我不知道,也许你知道这一点。 |
| 554 | I have this disease called Parkinson's, | 我有一个叫帕金森的疾病, |
| 555 | which is a neurological disorder. | 这是神经紊乱 |
| 556 | And it interferes with attention | 它干扰了注意力 |
| 557 | as well as with physical movement. | 还有身体运动 |
| 558 | And one of the recommended therapies | 和推荐的疗法之一 |
| 559 | for this disease is boxing | 这个病是拳击 |
| 560 | because it teaches you to pay attention | 因为它教你注意 |
| 561 | to hand-eye coordination of movement | 以手眼协调行动 |
| 562 | and also to sequences of actions. | 以及行动顺序。 |
| 563 | Because boxing workouts are a sequence | 因为拳击锻炼是一个序列 |
| 564 | of different kinds of punches | 各种拳头 |
| 565 | which are dictated by the teacher. | 由老师决定的 |
| 566 | They call out numbers and you have to do the motion | 他们喊出号码,你必须做运动 |
| 567 | that corresponds to that number. | 和这个数字一致 |
| 568 | So you have to pay attention in a particular way | 所以,你必须注意特定的方式 |
| 569 | that if you have Parkinson's, your brain doesn't wanna do | 如果你有帕金森的, 你的大脑不想做 |
| 570 | so you have to keep stimulating your brain to do that thing. | 所以,你必须不断刺激你的大脑 这样做。 |
| 571 | So boxing, therefore, is why. | 因此,拳击就是原因。 |
| 572 | I mean, that's why I began the boxing. | 所以我才开始拳击 |
| 573 | And I really like it. | 我真的很喜欢 |
| 574 | How long have you been boxing now? | 你打拳击多久了? |
| 575 | Oh, how long? | 哦,多长时间? |
| 576 | Two or three months, maybe? | 两三个月吧? |
| 577 | I just, yeah, I just joined it recently. | 我只是,是的,我刚加入它最近。 |
| 578 | I asked you, I made a print of the essay | 我问你,我做了一篇论文 |
| 579 | in the London Review of Books. | 《伦敦书评》 |
| 580 | And everybody has to go and read this whole essay. | 每个人都得去读这整篇论文。 |
| 581 | But I, and it was printed in August. | 但我,它是在8月印刷的。 |
| 582 | And I'm wondering if you would read | 我想知道你会不会读 |
| 583 | the beginning of that essay. | 那篇论文的开始 |
| 584 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 585 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 586 | Speaking of not wanting to be autobiographical. | 说到不想自传 |
| 587 | Oh well. | 哦,不错。 |
| 588 | This essay was called Gloves On | 这篇文章叫"手套" |
| 589 | because that's a phrase that is used. | 因为它是一个短语被使用。 |
| 590 | It's explained here. | 这里已经解释过了 |
| 591 | So, your life. | 所以,你的生活。 你的生活。 |
| 592 | There it is before you. | 这是在你面前。 |
| 593 | Possibly a road, a ribbon, a dotted line, a map. | 可能是一条路,一条丝带,一条虚线,一张地图。 |
| 594 | Let's say you're 25. | 假设你25岁 |
| 595 | Then you make some decisions, do things, | 然后你做一些决定,做一些事情, |
| 596 | have setbacks, have triumphs. | 有挫折,有胜利。 |
| 597 | Become someone, a bus driver, a professor, | 成为某个人 巴士司机 教授 |
| 598 | a pirate, a cosmetologist. | 海盗 美容师 |
| 599 | Years pass, maybe in a family, maybe not. | 多年过去了,也许在一个家庭,也许没有。 |
| 600 | Maybe happy, maybe not. | 也许快乐,也许不是。 |
| 601 | Then one day you wake up and you're 70. | 然后有一天你醒来,你70岁。 |
| 602 | Looking ahead, you see a black doorway. | 向前看,你看到一个黑门道。 |
| 603 | You begin to notice the black doorway is always there | 你开始注意到 黑门道总是在那里 |
| 604 | at the edge, whether you look at it or not. | 在边缘,无论你是否看它。 |
| 605 | Most moments contain it. | 大多数时候都控制住它 |
| 606 | Most moments have a sort of sediment of black doorway | 大部分时候都有黑门道的沉积物 |
| 607 | at the bottom of the glass. | 在玻璃的底部。 |
| 608 | You wonder if other people are seeing it too. | 你想知道其他人有没有看到它。 |
| 609 | You ask them. | 你问他们。 |
| 610 | They say no. | 他们说不。 |
| 611 | You ask why. | 你问其故. |
| 612 | No one can tell you. | 没有人可以告诉你。 |
| 613 | A minute ago you were 25, | 刚才你25岁 |
| 614 | then you went ahead getting the life you want. | 然后,你继续 获得你想要的生活。 |
| 615 | One day you look back from 25 to now | 有一天你从25岁回首过去 |
| 616 | and there it is, the doorway, black, waiting. | 门口,黑色,等待。 |
| 617 | When I was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, | 当我被诊断出帕金森的病 |
| 618 | a symptom particularly mortifying to me | 一个特别让我痛苦的症状 |
| 619 | was that my handwriting disintegrated. | 是我的笔迹断裂了 |
| 620 | Parkinson's, as you know, maybe is a shaking disease, | 帕金森的,你知道, 也许是一个摇晃的疾病, |
| 621 | so most people who get it have a tremor, | 所以大多数人谁得到它有颤抖, |
| 622 | like your hand does this, | 就像你的手这样做, |
| 623 | and it makes handwriting obviously difficult. | 笔迹显然很难写 |
| 624 | I used to take pleasure in writing in notebooks, | 我以前在笔记本上写作很愉快 |
| 625 | shelves of them, day after day, year after year. | 他们的架子,日复一日,年复一年。 |
| 626 | Now the upright strokes bend or break | 现在直线弯曲或断裂 |
| 627 | or go in all directions. | 或向四面八方前进 |
| 628 | Vowels缩小为blobs。 | |
| 629 | Slant loses its smooth, smart angle. | 斜体失去其光滑,智能的角度. |
| 630 | It all looks embarrassing. | 看起来很尴尬 |
| 631 | I scrub out whole paragraphs in shame. | 我丢脸地擦掉整段 |
| 632 | Hard to describe or explain the shame of bad handwriting. | 很难描述或解释不良笔迹的耻辱. |
| 633 | The shame of bad handwriting. | 笔迹不好的耻辱 |
| 634 | So handwriting, I don't know. | 所以笔迹,我不知道。 |
| 635 | Should we talk about handwriting? | 我们该谈谈笔迹吗? |
| 636 | Yeah, let's talk about handwriting. | 是啊,让我们谈谈笔迹。 |
| 637 | How many people learn to write cursive in school? | 有多少人在学校学会写咒语? |
| 638 | You all did, wow. | 你们都做了,哇。 |
| 639 | Well, the Europeans did. | 嗯,欧洲人做到了。 |
| 640 | You did too. | 你也一样。 |
| 641 | I think nowadays it's not so much cared about | 我觉得现在不太在意 |
| 642 | because people, even in elementary school, | 因为人们,即使在小学, |
| 643 | they're reading on the screen a lot. | 他们经常在屏幕上阅读 |
| 644 | Anyway, I did too, learn to write cursive | 总之,我也一样,学着写咒语 |
| 645 | in elementary school, and I just loved doing it. | 在小学,我只是喜欢这样做。 |
| 646 | I remember especially the joy of getting to the letter S, | 我特别记得收到信S的快乐 |
| 647 | all those curves, you know? | 所有的曲线,你知道吗? |
| 648 | It's really just extraordinary fun. | 这实在太有趣了 |
| 649 | Anyway, over the years, I've written in notebooks | 总之 这些年来 我用笔记本写过 |
| 650 | with pen day after day, and I enjoyed just the movement | 日复一日地用笔,我很喜欢这个运动 |
| 651 | of the thing line after line, no matter what it said. | 无论它说什么,它都排成一行 |
| 652 | It's a different category of pleasure | 这是不同的快乐类别 |
| 653 | from the thinking of what to write. | 从思考什么写。 |
| 654 | And when your handwriting becomes uncontrollable, | 当你的笔迹变得无法控制时, |
| 655 | that pleasure is lost. | 欢乐就不见了 |
| 656 | Most people who have Parkinson's start to print | 大多数有帕金森开始印刷的人 |
| 657 | instead of writing, but printing isn't much fun. | 而不是写作,但印刷并不好玩。 |
| 658 | So yeah, that was the provocation for this essay, | 所以,这是挑衅 这篇论文, |
| 659 | was how frustrated I was by not being able | 我当时很沮丧,因为我做不到 |
| 660 | to write by hand, and it is interesting. | 用手写作,这是有趣的。 |
| 661 | I don't understand this exactly, | 我不太明白这一点, |
| 662 | how that situation inhibits the thinking of what to write. | 这种状况如何阻碍人们思考写什么。 |
| 663 | I guess the pleasures were so interlinked that. | 我想这些乐趣是相互联系的 |
| 664 | Now, when I think to sit down and write something, | 现在,当我想坐下来写点东西时, |
| 665 | I stop because it would be horrible | 我停下来是因为那太可怕了 |
| 666 | trying to make the marks work, | 试图使标记发挥作用, |
| 667 | and I can't seem to type thoughts. | 我似乎无法输入想法。 |
| 668 | It's different. | 其义不同. |
| 669 | Have you always written by hand? | 你总是用手写的吗? |
| 670 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 671 | But you say in this essay, this remarkable essay, | 但你在这篇散文中说 这篇杰出的散文 |
| 672 | because you have written it by hand. | 因为你是手写的 |
| 673 | It's like it's two forces in that essay. | 这就像那篇散文中的两股力量. |
| 674 | There's this incredible energy. | 有一种不可思议的能量。 |
| 675 | I mean, you know, gloves on. | 我的意思是,你知道,戴着手套。 |
| 676 | And then at one point you say, or you write, | 然后你说,或者你写, |
| 677 | life is no longer fair. | 生活已经不公平了 |
| 678 | And you say, and I think it's like your whole work, | 你说,我觉得这就像你的全部工作, |
| 679 | your whole body of work is embodied in this one sentence, | 你的全部工作都体现在这句话中 |
| 680 | which is the struggle you're speaking of now, | 这就是你现在所说的挣扎, |
| 681 | I strive, I do not win. | 我努力,我不赢。 |
| 682 | It's Beckett's, you know, it's, | 这是贝克特的,你知道的,这是, |
| 683 | I strive, I do not win, which I think is, you know. | 我努力,我不赢 我认为,你知道的。 |
| 684 | So in this essay, I mean, it's a masterpiece, | 所以在这篇论文里,我是说,这是一部杰作, |
| 685 | because again, it's these two things side by side. | 再说一遍,是这两种东西并肩作战 |
| 686 | You're ashamed of your handwriting. | 你对你的笔迹感到羞愧 |
| 687 | You write, it's shameful because, | 你写,这是可耻的,因为, |
| 688 | and then at the same time it's gloves on. | 然后同时戴上手套 |
| 689 | Yeah, well, aren't we all kind of in that boat all the time, | 是啊,我们是不是都 那种在船上所有的时间, |
| 690 | that sort of struggle? | 那种挣扎? |
| 691 | I mean, what else would you do? | 我的意思是,你还会怎么做? |
| 692 | But also, I'll put in here a parenthesis, | 还有,我在这里放一个括号, |
| 693 | that sentence life is not fair is a pun there, | 判决是不公平的, |
| 694 | because it follows right after saying I envy Keats, | 因为它紧接着说 我羡慕济慈, |
| 695 | because if you've ever looked at Keats' letters and diaries, | 如果你看过济慈的信和日记 |
| 696 | they're written by hand, and it's beautiful, | 他们用手书写的 很美 |
| 697 | formal kind of cursive, | 正式的诅咒, |
| 698 | and they're some of the most lovely surfaces | 它们是最可爱的表面 |
| 699 | I've ever seen, and he called those his fair copies. | 我见过,他称这些是他的展品 |
| 700 | And I, writing fair, I remember writing fair | 我,写公平,我记得写公平 |
| 701 | with great difficulty in thinking. | 很难思考 |
| 702 | Fair, that has a lot of other meanings, | 公平,这有很多其他意义, |
| 703 | besides nice looking. | 除了帅气外 |
| 704 | Yes, because in English, | 是的,因为英语, |
| 705 | tell me about the different meanings of fair. | 告诉我公平的不同意义 |
| 706 | Well, fair in English means pretty, basically, | 嗯,公平在英语意味着漂亮,基本上, |
| 707 | nice, comely, pleasant to look at, | 不错,喜悦地看着, |
| 708 | but also means just, | 但也意味着, |
| 709 | equal, equally distributed among the players. | 平等,在玩家之间公平分配。 |
| 710 | So that's quite a different thing, | 所以这是相当不同的事情, |
| 711 | but I lost both. | 但我失去了两个。 |
| 712 | You have been a translator your whole life. | 你一辈子都是翻译家 |
| 713 | And in Float, there is a essay that I love | 在Float,有一篇我喜欢的论文 |
| 714 | 被称为"变迁"(Variations, The Right to keep Silent),即"保持沉默的权利". | |
| 715 | And in it, well, there's so much in that essay, | 在它,嗯,有这么多 在散文, |
| 716 | but in it, you speak of the silences in translation. | 但在其中,你在翻译中谈到沉默。 |
| 717 | There's a lot of silence in your translations, | 在你的翻译中有许多沉默, |
| 718 | obviously in your translations of Sapho, | 在你对萨福的翻译中 |
| 719 | because things have literally, | 因为事情有字面意义, |
| 720 | I mean, you don't have the whole poem. | 你没有整首诗 |
| 721 | There are brackets, | 有括号, |
| 722 | and you make the brackets as important as the words. | 你让括号和文字一样重要 |
| 723 | So the silence is what's disappeared, | 所以沉默就是消失的东西 |
| 724 | what's no longer there, what we don't know. | 已经不存在的,我们不知道的。 |
| 725 | The black spaces are as important as the words. | 黑空间与文字一样重要. |
| 726 | Can you talk about the meaning of | 你能说说吗? |
| 727 | working with disappeared things or silent things, | 与消失的东西 或沉默的东西, |
| 728 | blank spaces in writing and translation? | 写作和翻译中的空格? |
| 729 | I think as far as Sapho goes, | 我认为,直到萨福去, |
| 730 | I put blank spaces in to represent the history of the text, | 我插了空格来代表文本的历史 |
| 731 | because most of her work has been lost to us, | 因为她大部分的作品都输给了我们 |
| 732 | so that it seems simply unrealistic | 这样看起来就太不现实了 |
| 733 | to read translations that fill out her lines | 阅读翻译 填写她的行 |
| 734 | and make a complete story out of something | 并做一个完整的 故事的东西 |
| 735 | of which we only really know 11 words. | 我们只知道11个字 |
| 736 | So I put the spaces in for that reason, | 所以我把空间 的原因, |
| 737 | and then I put brackets to indicate | 然后我放上括号来表示 |
| 738 | where the spaces start and stop. | 空间开始和停止。 |
| 739 | Mostly I did that because it looked nice, to be honest, | 大部分我这样做是因为 看起来不错,说实话, |
| 740 | but it is something that classical scholars do | 但这是古典学者做的事 |
| 741 | with textual criticism. | 有文字批评。 |
| 742 | They use different kinds of brackets. | 它们使用不同种类的括号. |
| 743 | When I suppose it relates | 当我想它有关 |
| 744 | to the cognitive procedure of translation, | 翻译的认知程序, |
| 745 | where you're always coming upon words | 你总是在说话 |
| 746 | that can't be imitated in the other language, | 无法模仿另一种语言, |
| 747 | let alone replicated, | 更别说复制了, |
| 748 | and so those holes in the meaning | 所以这些洞的意义 |
| 749 | are always there for the mind of the translator, | 总是在为翻译者的心智, |
| 750 | and usually you're meant to | 通常你注定会 |
| 751 | relieve the reader of the problem of having that, | 解除读者对有这样的问题, |
| 752 | so you fill them in or cover them up. | 所以,你填写 或掩盖他们。 |
| 753 | But I didn't do that, another wrongness. | 但我没有做,又错了 |
| 754 | You do the opposite. | 你这样做恰恰相反。 |
| 755 | You draw attention to the blankness, | 你提醒人们注意空白, |
| 756 | to the things that don't. | 给那些没有的东西 |
| 757 | Yeah, and I suppose, | 是啊,我想,我猜, |
| 758 | I suppose it gives also a space for thinking. | 我想这也为思考提供了空间。 |
| 759 | As I was saying before, | 正如我之前所说, |
| 760 | part of the project of writing or making artworks | 创作或制作艺术品项目的一部分 |
| 761 | is to give other people a thinking | 就是给别人一个想法 |
| 762 | that they haven't had before, | 他们以前从未有过的, |
| 763 | and having language with space in it | 并且语言有空间 |
| 764 | is a place to go and think. | 是一个去思考的地方。 |
| 765 | Actually, it's interesting, | 其实,这很有趣, |
| 766 | since I published that book, | 自从我出版了那本书 |
| 767 | I can't tell you how often I've received in the mail | 我不能告诉你我多久收到一次邮件 |
| 768 | manuscripts by people who have | 手稿由拥有 |
| 769 | helpfully filled in all the spaces. | 所有空格都填满了 |
| 770 | Because they read it and they think they know what she said, | 因为他们读它,他们认为 他们知道她说什么, |
| 771 | or should have said. | 或者应该说。 |
| 772 | That's a reparative instinct, maybe. | 这也许是补偿性的本能 |
| 773 | Trying to make good the holes, I don't know. | 试图弥补漏洞,我不知道。 |
| 774 | Don't know what to say about it either to them. | 他们也不知道该说什么 |
| 775 | I usually send them back saying thank you very much. | 我通常会送他们回来 说非常感谢。 |
| 776 | In an interview you did in the podcast, | 你在播客的采访中 |
| 777 | Eleanor Bakhtel的广播节目 | |
| 778 | who is here in Louisiana, the writers and company. | 在路易斯安那州的作家和公司 |
| 779 | Great, fantastic book podcast. | 很棒的书播客 |
| 780 | You tell her that you love being in a translation. | 你告诉她你喜欢翻译 |
| 781 | Did I, wow. | 我,哇。 我,哇。 |
| 782 | Yeah, and she asks you why, | 是啊,她问你为什么, |
| 783 | and you say because you can glimpse down the cracks | 你这么说是因为你可以看到裂缝 |
| 784 | at that other thing. | 在另一个东西。 |
| 785 | At that other thing. | 在另一个事情。 |
| 786 | What's that? | 这是什么? |
| 787 | I mean, I guess it's what you've already been saying, | 我的意思是,我猜这是 你一直在说, |
| 788 | that it's the cracks. | 这是裂缝。 |
| 789 | Looking down at something that's cracked and not whole. | 俯瞰着一些破碎而并非完整的事物. |
| 790 | Yeah, maybe so. | 是啊,也许是这样。 |
| 791 | And otherness in it. | 和其中别处. |
| 792 | I think, yeah, maybe so, maybe so. | 我想,是的,也许如此,也许如此。 |
| 793 | Translation is a weird process. | 翻译是一个奇怪的过程。 |
| 794 | You have the original and your version, | 你有原创和你的版本, |
| 795 | and then you have in between them | 然后你在他们之间, |
| 796 | glimpsed maybe that crack in the book | 看到了书上的裂缝 |
| 797 | and between the two parts. | 两部分之间 |
| 798 | You have what it should say, | 你有它应该说, |
| 799 | the language in between those two things, | 两件事之间的语言, |
| 800 | but it doesn't, you can't get to that from either side. | 但它没有,你不能得到 从两边。 |
| 801 | They said what they said, | 他们说的 |
| 802 | and you say some imitation of it, | 你说模仿一下 |
| 803 | but there could be a word, a set of words, | 但可能有一个词,一组词, |
| 804 | that does both at once, | 两者同时发生 |
| 805 | except we don't live in that time zone. | 除非我们不住在那个时区 |
| 806 | What do you mean we don't live in that time zone? | 你说我们不住在那个时区是什么意思? |
| 807 | Well, we don't, I mean, that's sort of like string theory. | 嗯,我们不,我的意思是, 这有点像弦理论。 |
| 808 | There could be all these different realities, | 可能有所有这些不同的现实, |
| 809 | and we just happen to be living in this one, | 而我们只是碰巧生活在这个, |
| 810 | but we could be living in that one, | 但我们可以生活在那一个, |
| 811 | or we could be living in the crack, | 或者我们可能生活在裂缝里, |
| 812 | because it's there somewhere, | 因为它在某处, |
| 813 | but we haven't learned how to perceive it. | 但我们还没有学会如何看待它。 |
| 814 | Or it's like Walter Benjamin has this famous essay | 或者像沃尔特·本杰明有一篇著名的论文 |
| 815 | about the task of the translator, | 关于翻译者的任务, |
| 816 | where he calls that the sacred conversation, | 他称之为神圣的对话, |
| 817 | that one down underneath the two. | 下两层的 |
| 818 | So I don't know about sacred. | 故不知圣谛. |
| 819 | I'm not that sure about sacred anything, | 我不确定什么是神圣的, |
| 820 | but that's a way to describe that. | 但这是一种描述的方法。 |
| 821 | You do say in From Variations on the Right | 右侧的变体 |
| 822 | to Remain Silent, | 保持安静, |
| 823 | you say, there is something maddeningly attractive | 你说,有 疯狂的吸引力 |
| 824 | about the untranslatable, | 关于不易翻译的, |
| 825 | about a word that goes silent in transit. | 约一个字 在转机中沉默。 |
| 826 | That's well put, isn't it? | 说得好,不是吗? |
| 827 | I think so. | 我想是这样。 |
| 828 | Also in that essay about translation, | 也在那篇关于翻译的文章中 |
| 829 | and one of the reasons I, | 其中一个原因我, |
| 830 | and many reasons I love it, | 以及很多我喜欢的原因 |
| 831 | you talk about Hildelein, or you write about Hildelein, | 你谈论希尔德林 或者写希尔德林 |
| 832 | who actually went mad translating. | 谁真的疯了 翻译。 |
| 833 | Himself, yeah. | 他,对。 |
| 834 | Yeah, well, he started translating Sophocles. | 他开始翻译索福克莱斯 |
| 835 | You've also translated Sophocles. | 你也翻译过索福克莱斯. |
| 836 | And he just never felt that he got it right, | 他从来没有觉得自己是对的, |
| 837 | and then he started sort of re-translating himself, | 然后他开始自我翻译 |
| 838 | and then he went mad. | 然后他就发疯了。 |
| 839 | Perhaps some of you who are writers have done that. | 也许你们中有些人是作家 |
| 840 | I mean, you look at your old books | 你看你的旧书 |
| 841 | as written by somebody else, | 由别人写的, |
| 842 | and then you think, I could do that better nowadays. | 然后,你认为, 我可以做更好的现在。 |
| 843 | And if you start trying, it's a black hole. | 如果你开始尝试, 这是一个黑洞。 |
| 844 | That goes, you really are a different person. | 说来话长 你真的是另一个人 |
| 845 | But where did you start that? | 但你从哪里开始的? |
| 846 | I forget. | 我忘记了 |
| 847 | Walter Benjamin, no. | 沃尔特・本杰明,不。 |
| 848 | Walter Benjamin, yeah, about madness and Hildelein. | 沃尔特・本杰明,是的,关于疯狂和希尔德林。 |
| 849 | Oh, Hildelein, yeah, Hildelein. | 哦,希尔德林,是的,希尔德林。 |
| 850 | And went mad, and. | 然后就发疯了 |
| 851 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 852 | Go on. | 继续 |
| 853 | He just, I think the process was, | 他只是,我认为过程是, |
| 854 | he was alone, he lived alone in a tower. | 他一个人住在塔里 |
| 855 | He was certified insane. | 他被证明是疯子 |
| 856 | Lived alone in a tower by a river, | 独自住在河边的塔里 |
| 857 | and he began to reread his own work | 他开始重读自己的作品 |
| 858 | and break it down into different ways | 并把它分为不同的方式 |
| 859 | of saying the same thing, I guess, | 说同样的事情,我想, |
| 860 | and then started to translate it himself into himself. | 然后自己开始翻译 |
| 861 | Quite, yeah, bizarre. | 相当,是的,怪异。 |
| 862 | Have you attempted something like that ever? | 你试过这样吗? |
| 863 | No, I just don't read the old stuff. | 不,我只是不读旧东西。 |
| 864 | You don't read your. | 你不读你的书。 |
| 865 | Solves the problem. | 解决了问题。 |
| 866 | But you do say or write some other place | 但你会说或写别的地方 |
| 867 | that madness lives right next to poetry. | 那个疯子住在诗歌旁边 |
| 868 | Me say that? | 我这么说的? |
| 869 | Yeah, you said that. | 是的,你说的。 |
| 870 | Dang. | 该死 |
| 871 | No, imagine what I meant by that. | 不,想象一下我的意思是什麽。 |
| 872 | In connection to Hildelein or to. | 和希尔德林有关 |
| 873 | No. | 没有 |
| 874 | Me. | 来 |
| 875 | You said it. | 你说的 |
| 876 | I try to make order with my notes, | 我试着用我的笔记来整理 |
| 877 | so I have this whole page called Translation and Madness, | 所以我有整页的翻译和疯狂, |
| 878 | and it just says, quote, no, you said it to me. | 它只是说,引文,不,你告诉我的。 |
| 879 | And Carson said to me. | 卡森对我说 |
| 880 | Well. | 这个嘛 |
| 881 | Poetry's right next to madness in the mind, | 诗歌就在脑海疯狂的旁边 |
| 882 | so you're, you know, just a step away. | 所以,你知道, 只是一步远。 |
| 883 | So. | 所以说 So. |
| 884 | Ah, okay. | 啊,还好。 |
| 885 | It's in an earlier conversation you've said this to me. | 这是在之前的一次谈话中,你告诉我的。 |
| 886 | Must have been something you said, the perversion. | 一定是你说的变态 |
| 887 | I can't remember. | 我不记得了 |
| 888 | Well, it's a platonic idea that madness and poetry | 嗯,这是一个柏拉图式的想法,疯狂和诗歌 |
| 889 | and the lover and the poet and the madman | 爱人、诗人、疯子, |
| 890 | are side by side psychologically. | 并肩作战 |
| 891 | It's some kind of set of assumptions | 这是某种假设 |
| 892 | about how they should live. | 他们应该如何生活。 |
| 893 | Probably I was quoting Plato. | 可能我在引用柏拉图的话 |
| 894 | You know, before we end, I want to go back | 你知道,在我们结束之前,我想回去 |
| 895 | to the mother figure that appears from time to time | 时常出现的母体图 |
| 896 | in the Glass Essay, in Autobiography of Red, in Red Dock. | 在格拉斯艾赛, 在自传中的红色, 在红码头。 |
| 897 | That's on top of my mind. | 这是在我的头上。 |
| 898 | I remember, and just this beautiful mother character. | 我记得,只有这个美丽的母亲角色。 |
| 899 | And in Red Dock, | 在红码头 |
| 900 | it's just, we meet the red monster, Geryon, again. | 只是,我们再次遇到红色怪物,杰里安。 |
| 901 | We meet him also in Autobiography of Red, | 我们在《红色的自传》里也见过他 |
| 902 | and he's sort of on a road trip, | 他有点在路上旅行, |
| 903 | and then he ends up with his dying mother. | 然后他和临终的母亲在一起 |
| 904 | And it's very poignant, and I just reread it, | 并且它非常尖锐, 我只是重新读它, |
| 905 | and everybody who's had mothers or who are mothers | 和所有有母亲或母亲的人 |
| 906 | or remembers mothers, it's very beautiful. | 或者记得母亲, 它非常美丽。 |
| 907 | I even thought about, but that's probably me | 我甚至想过,但这可能是我 |
| 908 | taking it too far because Geryon coming | 因为杰里安来了,太过分了 |
| 909 | to his mother's bedside reminded me a little bit | 他母亲的床边让我想起了一点 |
| 910 | (原始内容存档于2018-09-26). Per Gynt, Ibsen's Per Gynt. | |
| 911 | This is me being Norwegian, sitting by his mother's bedside | 我是挪威人,坐在他妈妈的床边 |
| 912 | and telling the dying mother and telling everything | 告诉临终的母亲 并告诉一切 |
| 913 | they're gonna do together, but do you have, | 他们要一起做,但你有, |
| 914 | I mean, there's so many playwrights | 我的意思是,有这么多的剧作家 |
| 915 | that play a role in your life as Ibsen. | 作为伊布森在你的生活中扮演了角色 |
| 916 | I never, I don't think. | 我从来没有,我不认为。 |
| 917 | Not so far. | 还没有 |
| 918 | Nope. | 没有 |
| 919 | No, not so far. | 不,还没有。 |
| 920 | So that Per Gynt essay was probably just me, | 所以Per Gynt的散文可能是我一个人 |
| 921 | but the mother, she's there in the Glass essay, | 但是她的母亲,她在那里 在格拉斯散文, |
| 922 | which is one of your earlier works. | 这是你之前的作品之一。 |
| 923 | She's there in your later works. | 她就在你的后期作品里 |
| 924 | Can you say something? | 你能说点什么吗? |
| 925 | Not the same mother, I don't think. | 不一样的母亲,我不认为。 |
| 926 | Is it not the same mother? | 不是同一个母亲吗? |
| 927 | That was just me then. | 那时只有我一个人 |
| 928 | The one in autobiography of Red, | 在自传中的Red, |
| 929 | well, I guess maybe she's always smoking, for one thing, | 我想也许她总是抽烟 |
| 930 | but my mother did smoke pretty much all the time, | 但我妈妈经常抽烟 |
| 931 | but the rest of the personality is not the same. | 但人格的其余部分并不一样. |
| 932 | But the one in the mother, | 但母亲身上的那个 |
| 933 | in other parts that you mentioned. | 在你提到的其他地方。 |
| 934 | Red Dock. | 红码头. |
| 935 | I think is more like what really happened, yeah. | 我觉得更像真的发生了什么,是的。 |
| 936 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 937 | Because I think you did say in an interview | 因为我觉得你在采访中说过 |
| 938 | that writing the death scene | 写死亡的场景 |
| 939 | or sitting by the mother's deathbed was hard. | 或坐在母亲的死床边是艰难的。 |
| 940 | Yeah, it was hard. | 是啊,这是很难的。 |
| 941 | She was not happy. | 她不高兴。 |
| 942 | But what she was worried about mostly, | 但是她最担心的是 |
| 943 | and this is saddening, | 这确是可悲的, |
| 944 | was her eyebrows. | 是她的眉毛。 |
| 945 | She used to pluck her eyebrows every day. | 她经常每天拔眉毛 |
| 946 | She had really bushy eyebrows. | 她的眉毛很长 |
| 947 | And in the cosmetology of that time, | 在那个时代的美容学上 |
| 948 | it was a few years ago, | 这是几年前, |
| 949 | bushy eyebrows were not in fashion. | 毛茸茸的眉毛不是时尚 |
| 950 | They are now, actually. | 瞷琌 |
| 951 | So different world. | 如此不同世间. |
| 952 | She had a lot of worry about being in a hospital | 她很担心进医院 |
| 953 | where she couldn't do her eyebrows every day | 在那里,她不能 做她的眉毛的每一天 |
| 954 | and just looking terrible. | 而且看起来很糟糕。 |
| 955 | So when I went to visit her in the hospital, | 所以当我去医院看她时 |
| 956 | what we tried to do together was have me pluck her eyebrows, | 我们试图一起做的是 让我拔她的眉毛, |
| 957 | which if you've ever tried to do that, is just impossible. | 如果你曾经试图做到这一点, 只是不可能。 |
| 958 | And anyway, as I kept telling her, | 反正我一直告诉她 |
| 959 | her eyebrows were transparent. | 她的眉毛是透明的。 |
| 960 | I mean, she was totally white-haired, | 我的意思是,她是完全白发, |
| 961 | and your eyebrows, when they get white, | 和你的眉毛,当它们变白的时候, |
| 962 | they just disappear into your skin. | 他们只是消失在你的皮肤。 |
| 963 | It didn't matter whether she plucked her eyebrows or not. | 不管她有没有拔眉毛 |
| 964 | And I kept making this point, and she just ignored me, | 我不停地提出这一点, 她只是忽略了我, |
| 965 | which was typical of our experience together to that time. | 这在当时是我们共同经历的典型。 |
| 966 | But it was also kind of sad that she was still | 但也有点悲哀 她仍然 |
| 967 | worried about this, as it seemed to me, | 担心这个,在我看来, |
| 968 | inessential thing, but that's who we are. | 但这就是我们 |
| 969 | I want to end this talk, actually, | 我想结束这个谈话,其实, |
| 970 | by you reading from Red Dock. | 你从红码头读到的。 |
| 971 | I have it, I had it from Kindle, | 我有,我从Kindle那里拿到的 |
| 972 | so I wrote it on a page, but this is about Mother | 所以我写在一页,但这是关于妈妈的 |
| 973 | in Red Dock, and I was wondering if you could read it. | 在红码头,我想请你读读 |
| 974 | Yeah, I should explain the formal structure. | 是啊,我应该解释 正式的结构。 |
| 975 | Red Dock is a novel sort of in verse, | 红码头是小说中的诗歌 |
| 976 | but it has a Greek chorus, or a chorus that recurs | 但它有一个希腊合唱团, 或者一个重复的合唱团 |
| 977 | in the same voice, and the chorus is called Wife of Brain. | 在同一个声音, 和合唱叫做脑的妻子。 |
| 978 | So it's a sort of indeterminate voice | 所以这是一种不确定的声音 |
| 979 | that oversees the action and the thoughts of the characters. | 监督角色的行动和思想。 |
| 980 | So this is Wife of Brain. | 这是脑之妻 |
| 981 | Mothers in summer, mothers in winter, | 母亲在夏天,母亲在冬天, |
| 982 | mothers in autumn, mothers in spring. | 母亲在秋季,母亲在春季。 |
| 983 | Mothers at altitude, mothers in solitude, | 母亲在高处,母亲在孤独, |
| 984 | mothers as platitude, mothers in spring. | 母亲是纯洁的,春天的母亲。 |
| 985 | Mothers banking their shots, mothers crackling | 母亲存钱,母亲摇摆不定 |
| 986 | their throats, mothers dumped from their boats in spring. | 他们的喉咙,母亲们在春天从船上倾倒。 |
| 987 | Mothers as ice, or when they are nice, | 母亲像冰一样,或者当他们很好的时候, |
| 988 | no one more nice in spring. | 春天再也没有好人了 |
| 989 | Mothers ashamed and ablaze and clear at the end | 母亲们感到羞愧 燃起烈焰 清澈的尽头 |
| 990 | as they are, as they almost all are. | 他们几乎都是 |
| 991 | And then mothers don't come around again in spring. | 然后母亲不会在春天再次出现。 |
| 992 | Hans Pearson. | 汉斯·皮尔逊. |
| 993 | Ann Carson. | 安・卡森。 |
| 994 | Ann Preison. | 安·普赖森. |
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