《经济学人》专访德国选择党党主席魏德尔 | 2026.10.

《经济学人》专访德国选择党党主席魏德尔 | 2026.10.21 | 美剧级别字幕

发布于 2026-10-21 · 时长 59:36

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:01	Alice Weidel, thank you for joining me on The Insider.	爱丽丝·魏德尔谢谢你加入我"内线"
0:04	Thank you for having me.	谢谢你邀请我
0:05	So the party you co-lead, the Alternative for Germany, is riding high.	所以你们共同领导的党,德国的另类党, 正在骑高。
0:10	You came top in two recent state elections, Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.	最近两次州选举你都登顶了萨克森-安哈尔特州和梅克伦堡-沃波默恩州
0:16	You're the biggest opposition group in the Bundestag,	你是联邦议院最大的反对党
0:19	and you come consistently absolutely at the top of the polls nationally.	你总是在民意测验的首位
0:23	And I think your success, your rise, is reflecting a deep frustration	我认为你的成功,你的崛起反映了一种深深的挫折
0:28	amongst many Germans with the status quo.	在很多德国人中,
0:30	And you're very good at articulating that frustration.	你非常擅长表达这种挫折感。
0:33	But I think people have less idea of exactly what the AFD would and would not do.	但我认为人们不太了解亚足联会做什么也不会做什么

展开字幕全文（920 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Alice Weidel, thank you for joining me on The Insider.	爱丽丝·魏德尔谢谢你加入我"内线"
2	Thank you for having me.	谢谢你邀请我
3	So the party you co-lead, the Alternative for Germany, is riding high.	所以你们共同领导的党,德国的另类党, 正在骑高。
4	You came top in two recent state elections, Sachsen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.	最近两次州选举你都登顶了萨克森-安哈尔特州和梅克伦堡-沃波默恩州
5	You're the biggest opposition group in the Bundestag,	你是联邦议院最大的反对党
6	and you come consistently absolutely at the top of the polls nationally.	你总是在民意测验的首位
7	And I think your success, your rise, is reflecting a deep frustration	我认为你的成功,你的崛起反映了一种深深的挫折
8	amongst many Germans with the status quo.	在很多德国人中,
9	And you're very good at articulating that frustration.	你非常擅长表达这种挫折感。
10	But I think people have less idea of exactly what the AFD would and would not do.	但我认为人们不太了解亚足联会做什么也不会做什么
11	And that's what I wanted to focus this conversation on today,	这就是我今天想把谈话的焦点放在
12	to help me and to help our viewers understand what kind of a Germany you would like to create.	帮助我帮助我们的观众了解你想要创造什么样的德国
13	So I wanted to start with the economy.	所以我想从经济开始。
14	You are an economist.	你是经济学家
15	Let's imagine the German economy is a car.	让我们想象一下德国的经济是一辆汽车.
16	Is it in need of a few repairs, or does it need a whole new economic model?	是需要几处修理,还是需要全新的经济模式?
17	How big is the challenge for the German economy?	德国经济面临的挑战有多大?
18	Actually, to be in your picture, you need to restructure and rebuild the entire car,	实际上,在你的图片, 你需要重组和重建整个车,
19	because the car parts are also broken.	因为汽车零件也坏了
20	And I am going to explain to you why that is the case in Germany.	我要向你们解释为什么德国是这样。
21	I think Germany, just looking at the data, at the economic data, is in a deep crisis.	我认为德国,仅仅看一下数据,看经济数据,就陷入了深刻的危机。
22	And this crisis is multifaceted.	这场危机是多方面的。
23	Firstly, one major cause is the destroying of our energy infrastructure by the so-called	第一,一个主要原因就是所谓的能源基础设施被破坏。
24	(原始内容存档于2017-03-09). Energiewende.
25	So Energiewende is the energy transition policy that was self-inflicted and introduced firstly	Energiewende是能源过渡政策, 政策是自我影响,
26	by the Merkel government, and then has been continued by the following governments until now.	由默克尔政府负责,然后由以下政府继续运作至今.
27	And these energy policies comprise the destruction of our infrastructure,	这些能源政策包括摧毁我们的基础设施,
28	just like destroying our nuclear power plants.	就像摧毁我们的核电站
29	You have to imagine Germany in the past had 19 power plants, most modern ones.	想象一下德国过去有19座发电厂, 大部分是现代化的。
30	So they were just switched off and got some explosives so that they are basically destroyed.	于是他们被关了起来,得到了一些炸药,以便基本销毁.
31	And now Germany has zero nuclear power plants.	而现在德国拥有零核电站.
32	So I think Germany has the stupidest and most dumbest or dumbest energy policy worldwide.	因此,我认为德国拥有全世界最笨,最笨,最笨的能源政策.
33	And it continues.	它继续。
34	We have the energy transition basing our energy supply solely on wind power and solar power.	我们的能源过渡完全依靠风能和太阳能。
35	So when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine, we have the so-called dunkelflaute.	所以当风不吹,太阳不发光时,我们就有所谓的dunkelflaute.
36	I don't know the English word.	不识英字.
37	So it is like when you have no power supply, basically.	所以,它就像当你没有供电,基本上。
38	Then we are dependent on our neighbors importing energy for tremendously high prices.	然后,我们依赖邻国进口能源,价格极高。
39	And all of this leading to the situation in which the energy cost for our companies,	这一切导致我们公司的能源成本,
40	for the German companies, and also for the Germans are too high.	对德国公司来说还有对德国人来说都太高了
41	They are the highest in the world.	他们是世界上最高的。
42	Therefore, we are not competitive anymore in the world market.	因此,我们不再在世界市场上具有竞争力。
43	And we face right now skyrocketing bankruptcy rates by German companies.	我们现在面临德国公司破产率的飙升。
44	Either they go bankrupt or they go abroad.	要么破产要么出国
45	And this is basically the situation here.	这基本上是这里的情况。
46	And I haven't mentioned yet the high bureaucracy burden by the companies.	我还没提到公司沉重的官僚负担。
47	And it's interesting that you mentioned both of those.	有趣的是,你提到了这两个。
48	I think you have some very good points.	我认为你有一些很好的观点。
49	Germany does have incredibly high energy costs.	德国的能源成本非常高。
50	I think with hindsight, many people in the government might agree that shutting down	我觉得事后看来政府很多人可能同意关闭
51	the nuclear reactors did not make sense.	核反应堆没有意义。
52	And your manifesto last year made very clear you want to cut red tape, both pro-growth	而你去年的宣言非常明确地表明,你想削减繁文缛节, 既有利于增长
53	sensible policies.	明智的政策。
54	But your manifesto last year also said that Germany should leave the euro.	但你去年的宣言也说德国应该离开欧元.
55	And this is a policy that really has me scratching my head because most economists would agree	这个政策真的让我头疼因为大多数经济学家都同意
56	that for Germany, allowed to leave the euro would be catastrophic for its growth.	对于德国来说,允许离开欧元对于其增长是灾难性的。
57	Now, in the last few days, there have been some reports that your party may be rethinking	在过去几天里有报道说你的党可能正在重新思考
58	its policy towards the euro.	它对欧元的政策。
59	So I wonder if you could just state quite clearly, should Germany leave the euro?	所以我想知道你能不能说得清楚一点,德国应该离开欧元吗?
60	Thank you very much for the question and giving me the opportunity to clarify something.	非常感谢你提出的问题,并给我机会澄清一些事情。
61	There is this myth also stemming from the framing of our party that we want to leave	有个神话也源于我们党的陷害我们想离开
62	the EU and that we want to leave the euro.	我们想离开欧元。
63	It's wrong.	这是错误的。
64	Our program states that we would like to reform firstly the European Union.	我们的方案指出,我们希望首先改革欧洲联盟。
65	We think that the European Union should be a community of sovereign states	我们认为欧洲联盟应该是一个主权国家共同体。
66	with a free trade area.	与自由贸易区。
67	This is where we came from.	这是我们从哪里来的。
68	What we don't want is a European Union bureaucratic commission with a lot of bureaucrats,	我们不想要的是欧盟官僚委员会有很多官僚
69	like a Soviet Union, like something that interferes into your privacy, into companies	像苏联一样,就像干涉你隐私的东西, 进入公司一样
70	telling them what to produce, having nudges, I would say, like laws, bureaucracy,	告诉他们要生产什么, 做一些事,我会说, 像法律,官僚主义,
71	and also telling the consumers what to buy or what to install.	还告诉消费者买什么或安装什么
72	We think that this is very harmful to a free economy and to a free market system.	我们认为,这对自由经济和自由市场制度非常有害。
73	We also see a democratic deficit, like the check and balances.	我们还看到民主赤字,如制衡。
74	So we know all from the political philosophies that we need to have the system of checks and	因此,我们从政治哲学中都知道我们需要有检查制度和
75	balances on one hand horizontally, but also vertically.	一方面是横向平衡,另一方面是纵向平衡。
76	So decisions should be made by the lowest level of decision making,	因此决定应该由最低决策层作出,
77	because there you can have control, you can make things better.	因为在那里你可以控制, 你可以让事情更好。
78	Because you have the knowledge of decision, but not a planned economy-like commission	因为你知道决定,但不是计划经济的佣金
79	that is not elected and the people have no idea how a free market system works.	人民不知道自由市场制度是如何运作的。
80	You're watching an interview from The Economist.	你在看《经济学家》的采访
81	To get early access to our upcoming interviews and watch others from our archive,	为了早日进入我们即将到来的采访并观看我们档案中的其他内容
82	subscribe to The Economist by clicking the link above.	点击以上链接订阅《经济学家》。
83	Now back to the interview.	现在回到采访。
84	Is your goal to reform the European Union, to reform the commission,	你的目标是改革欧洲联盟改革委员会
85	to reform the whole structure from within, or is your goal to threaten to leave or to leave?	从内部改革整个结构,还是你威胁要离开或离开的目标?
86	Well, I think Cameron did it.	我想是卡梅伦干的
87	So he said like, Cameron did it once.	他说卡梅伦做过一次
88	So he said like, look, we need to have these reforms, like one, two, three.	所以他说,你看,我们需要这些改革,比如一,二,三。
89	Otherwise, we're going to leave the country.	否则,我们就要出国了.
90	So then you got the Brexit decision in Great Britain.	所以你在大不列颠得到了布莱克西特的决定。
91	Not so clear.	还不清楚
92	That was such a great thing for us.	这对我们来说是件好事
93	Well, this is open for discussion.	嗯,这是开放讨论。
94	I think Great Britain has different problems now.	我认为英国现在有不同的问题。
95	But let's stay at Germany because we are in the European Union.	但是,让我们留在德国,因为我们在欧洲联盟。
96	And we are the main financier of the European Union.	我们是欧洲联盟的主要金融家。
97	We think we need to build back the European Union and have the competencies	我们认为我们需要重建欧洲联盟并拥有能力
98	in the sovereign nation states while having a free trade area.	拥有自由贸易区的主权国家。
99	Therefore, this would guarantee actually the welfare of all nation states,	因此,这将切实保障所有民族国家的福利,
100	which we had in the past.	过去我们有过的
101	We think the development we had also after the introduction of the euro	我们认为欧元引入之后的发展
102	has been quite harmful for the European Union because through the or by the means	对欧洲联盟来说是相当有害的,因为
103	of introducing the euro and the, for instance, the German people were promised	例如,德国人民被允诺
104	that Germany would never take the debt of other countries.	德国永远不会承担其他国家的债务。
105	There was a promise to the Germans.	曾向德军许诺.
106	The Germans were never asked of introducing the euro.	德国人从未被要求引入欧元.
107	I want to get to the bottom line of this, which is we are where we are.	我想说清楚,这就是我们的位置。
108	Given where we are now, should Germany leave or should it not the euro?	鉴于我们现在的处境,德国应该离开还是不应该离开欧元?
109	We believe that the euro, the euro area is not or the euro is not a stable currency.	我们认为欧元,欧元区不是或者欧元不是稳定的货币.
110	Unfortunately, because a lot of mistakes have been made due to the fact	不幸的是,因为很多错误已经犯了因为事实
111	that the nation states are not a so-called optimal currency area.	国家不是一个所谓的最佳货币区。
112	And the policymaker should have known that right from the beginning.	决策者应该从一开始就知道这一点。
113	But we are nowhere.	但我们无处可去。
114	Wait, wait.	单单
115	It is very important because we have a highly inflated currency.	这是非常重要的,因为我们的货币高度膨胀。
116	We are coming from a German Deutsche Markwelt world.	我们来自德国马克韦尔的世界
117	We always had a relatively stable currency.	我们一直有一个相对稳定的货币。
118	And for the German economy, it is quite something like the introduction of the euro.	而对于德国经济来说,这相当像是欧元的引入.
119	We need to go back to a stable currency.	我们需要回到稳定的货币。
120	And this is what we propose, that we need to stick these institutions	这就是我们的建议,我们需要坚持这些机构
121	that have been implemented above the national currencies.	国家货币之上的货币。
122	They have to stick to the rules.	他们必须遵守规则。
123	It should be a rules-based what they do and shouldn't inflate the balance sheet.	这应该是一个基于规则的他们做什么, 不应该增加资产负债表。
124	与Marine Le Pen的访谈出来了
125	And she is arguing for more ECB financing of infrastructure.	她主张欧洲央行为基础设施提供更多资金。
126	Of course.	当然
127	And so forth.	及诸众生.
128	It's so cheap for France.	法华下贱.
129	You have, she is likely, she is leading in the polls too.	你有,她很可能, 她也在投票中领先。
130	She may well become president of France.	她很可能成为法国总统。
131	What is a Europe going to look like if you're leading it with your views	一个欧洲会是什么样子如果你以你的观点领导它
132	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}而Marine Le Pen是用她的观点来领头的?
133	Well, the explanation is very simple.	这个解释很简单
134	Germany is the main financier of the EU.	德国是欧盟的主要金融家.
135	And France receives the money, as well as other countries.	法国以及其他国家都收到这笔钱。
136	Of course, she wants to, from her perspective, I would do the same thing.	当然,她想,从她的角度, 我也会这样做。
137	She wants to do the best thing for a country.	她想为国家做最好的事
138	She wants to have free debt financing.	她想免费举债
139	Even though France is already in a huge debt crisis, like with skyrocketing interest rates,	尽管法国已经陷入了巨大的债务危机, 就像利率的暴涨,
140	I don't know what they're going to do at the capital markets, right?	我不知道他们在资本市场会做什么,对吧?
141	But Germany already is in the same situation, almost in the same situation.	但是德国已经处于同样的状态,几乎处于同样的状态.
142	Our state debt is skyrocketing.	我国国债暴涨.
143	You described very, very clearly the different perspectives that you and Marine Le Pen have.	你描述得非常非常清楚你和Marine Le Pen的观点不同
144	Isn't there a risk that as financial markets digest what you're saying and what she's saying,	金融市场不会消化你说的话和她说的话吗?
145	that Europe really does have a bond market crisis?	欧洲真的有债券市场危机吗?
146	Oh, certainly.	当然
147	Certainly, we're going to have a bond market crisis.	当然,我们将面临债券市场危机。
148	So with such a high state debt, and it's not only France, it's also Italy, Spain, Portugal,	因此,由于如此高的国家债务, 不仅法国,它也是意大利,西班牙,葡萄牙,
149	and it's also Germany.	这也是德国。
150	So with this new debt program of Germany,	因此,有了这个德国的新债务计划,
151	we already have rising interest rates at the capital market.	我们的资本市场利率已经上升了
152	And we are also an indebted country.	我们也是一个负债国。
153	And with this high debt over the next three years of this Friedrich Merz government,	在弗里德里希·默兹政府接下来的三年里债务如此沉重
154	we are, I think, we are at 80, we climb up to 82 billion.	我们,我想,我们80, 我们攀升到820亿。
155	So I'm a number person.	所以我是一个数字人物。
156	So sorry for bothering you with all this stuff.	抱歉打扰你这些事
157	I'm a number person.	我是数字人物.
158	That's very good.	不错
159	I can handle numbers.	我可以处理数字。
160	We pay, Germany pays right now interest rates at the capital market, roughly 40 billion.	我们支付,德国支付现在的利率在资本市场,大约400亿。
161	40 billion.	四百亿.
162	We climb up.	我们爬上去。
163	The interest bill.	利息账单
164	The interest bill, yes.	利息账单,是的。
165	Your rates are, of course, amongst the lowest in Europe, your interest rate.	当然,你的利率是欧洲最低的, 你的利率。
166	Yes, but with a risk prime that will certainly come,	是的,但有一个风险的高度肯定会到来,
167	we have an exploding interest rate burden, which we have to handle.	我们的利率负担非常沉重,我们必须处理。
168	From today, 40 billion up to in three years time, up to over 80 billion.	从今天开始,400亿到三年内,高达800亿以上。
169	And this is a number.	这是一个数字。
170	This is not bearable anymore.	这已经无法忍受了。
171	And this has been self-inflicted by stupid policies like throwing out the taxpayers' money,	而这一直被愚蠢的政策自残比如抛出纳税人的钱,
172	like for ridiculous projects like the climate transition.	比如气候转型等荒谬的项目
173	And I could sum up so many things right now.	我现在可以总结出很多事情
174	But Germany, and this is my point, is also in a deep financial crisis.	但是,德国,这也是我的观点, 也在一场深刻的金融危机中。
175	And we need to go back to financial resilience and seriousness, stability.	我们需要回到财政的复原力和严肃性,稳定性。
176	You make that point very powerfully.	你非常强烈地表明了这一点。
177	But when I look at your manifesto of last year, you proposed increased pension spending	但是当我看你去年的宣言你提议增加养老金开支
178	and you proposed a considerable number of tax cuts, both of which would add to the deficit.	你提议减税两者都会增加赤字
179	And I read your program carefully.	我仔细看了你的节目
180	It really didn't seem to me like a particularly fiscally frugal program.	在我看来,这并不像一个财政上特别节约的计划。
181	Well, the numbers add up if you set careful priorities.	好吧,数字加起来如果你设置了谨慎的优先。
182	比如说,我们有Bürgergeldempfänger。
183	The payments for social welfare.	社会福利费。
184	Social welfare, mainly for foreigners, adding up to 50 billion.	主要面向外国人的社会福利总计达500亿.
185	And then we have development aid, like in billions.	然后,我们得到了发展援助, 像数十亿。
186	And then we have the cost for climate, so-called climate and energy transition.	然后,我们有气候的成本, 所谓的气候和能源过渡。
187	This is really important because cutting the transition cost for the energy.	这是非常重要的,因为削减能源的过渡成本。
188	So this implies cutting subsidies.	这意味着削减补贴。
189	There are also billions of subsidies of an energy transition plan	能源过渡计划也有数十亿的补贴
190	that doesn't work for an industrial country such as Germany.	这对德国这样的工业国家是行不通的。
191	And mentioning the pension plan.	并提到退休金计划。
192	For us, a proper pension system should be vested in three pillars.	对我们来说,适当的养恤金制度应建立在三大支柱之上。
193	Like one is the redistribution scheme.	就像一个是重新分配计划。
194	And then the second pillar is the company's pension plan.	然后第二支柱是公司的退休金计划.
195	And then the third pillar is the private pension plans by every individual.	第三个支柱是每个人的私人养老金计划。
196	And we calculated it through because right now, the second and the third pillar,	我们计算过了,因为现在,第二和第三根支柱,
197	they're not sustainable.	它们不能持久
198	And also the first pillar, we should add individual accounts,	以及第一个支柱, 我们应该添加个人账户,
199	like of capital financed devices, which is not existent right now.	像资本融资的装置, 现在不存在。
200	And if you diversify the pension system like this, like our reform agenda,	如果你像我们的改革计划那样使养老金制度多样化
201	you can reach complete different numbers of pension, what is it?	您可领取不同数量的养老金,是什么?
202	Replacement rate.	更换率。
203	So just to be clear, you would not spend more public money on pensions.	所以说得很清楚,你不会把更多的公共资金花在养老金上。
204	What do you mean?	你说什么?
205	State money.	国钱.
206	The state pension would not become more costly under the AFD.	根据《联邦民主法》,国家养恤金的费用不会增加。
207	No, absolutely not.	不,绝对没有。
208	Because we would lift, especially for the second and for the third pillar,	因为我们抬起,特别是第二根和第三根支柱
209	for the private pension scheme, we would lift the taxes.	私人养老金计划, 我们将取消税收。
210	So it's tax free.	故免税.
211	So it's tax deductible.	所以可以减税.
212	But that adds to the deficit, right?	但它增加了赤字,对不对?
213	That makes it more costly.	这使得费用更高。
214	I'm trying to work out the fiscal consequences.	我正在研究财政后果
215	No, no.	没有,没有。
216	Because we have the highest taxes.	因为我们的税收最高。
217	We have the highest taxes and social security expenditures.	我们的税收和社会保障开支最高。
218	And this is all on the disadvantage of the individual worker.	这都是工人个人的缺点。
219	So therefore, we need to lower the taxes.	因此,我们需要降低税收。
220	But also on the other hand, we need to cut these huge expenditures by our state.	但另一方面,我们需要削减我们的国家的巨额开支。
221	And also, I would like to talk about the huge cost of a illegal,	还有,我想谈谈一个非法者的巨大代价,
222	out-of-control mass migration in our country.	我国失控大规模移民.
223	We still have open borders.	我们仍有开放的边界。
224	And this is very costly.	这是非常昂贵的。
225	And not having mentioned the disturbances for our public order.	也没有提到扰乱我们的公共秩序
226	I think people have trouble, when they look at your plans,	我认为人们有麻烦, 当他们看你的计划,
227	{\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}想出数字的合数
228	And I think that will be something.	我想那将会是一件大事。
229	And you've explained the logic.	你解释了逻辑
230	But it is hard to see how lower taxes, higher pension spending	但是,很难看如何降低税收,提高养老金支出
231	equals a smaller debt and deficit.	等于较小的债务和赤字。
232	But let's leave that.	但是,让我们离开这一点。
233	And let's just talk about defense.	我们来谈谈防御
234	Because one of the reasons we have, and I love the phrase you use,	因为我们的原因之一, 我喜欢你使用的短语,
235	you say Chancellor Mertz has an orgy of debt.	你说默兹总理欠了一大笔债
236	But one of the reasons Germany's debt break was lifted	但德国解除债务的原因之一
237	was to enable a big increase in defense spending,	让国防开支大幅增加
238	which the country has just started.	国家刚刚开始。
239	Do you support that increase?	你支持增加吗?
240	And specifically, do you support Germany reaching the target,	具体来说,你是否支持德国达到目标,
241	the NATO target of 3.5% of GDP on hard defense by 2029,	北约到2029年将国内生产总值的3.5%用于硬防御的目标,
242	which is what the Mertz government has said it will do?	默兹政府说会做什么?
243	Well, Germany hasn't spent even two percentage	德国连两个百分点都没花过
244	to the NATO budget in the past.	北约过去的预算。
245	So we have been lacking quite behind, I think, at 1% or something, 1.2%.	因此,我们一直缺乏相当落后,我认为, 1%左右,1.2%。
246	So therefore, we need to spend more.	因此,我们需要花更多的钱。
247	But I think military spending and defense spending, as the word says,	但我认为军费开支和国防开支,正如这个词所说,
248	it should be vested in our own defense capacities.	它应该被赋予我们自己的防御能力。
249	And now I'm coming to this topic	现在我来谈这个话题
250	that Germany is in the position right now	德国现在处于这个位置
251	to be the main financier and also giving away	成为主要金融家并付出
252	our munitions and everything to the Ukraine.	我们的弹药和一切给乌克兰。
253	So we are the main financier of the Ukraine right now.	我们现在是乌克兰的主要金融家。
254	The other European states are pulling back.	其他欧洲国家正在撤退.
255	Trump is out already.	特朗普已经出来了
256	So therefore, our government, in our point of view,	因此,我们的政府,在我们看来,
257	forces a policy which is not only harmful for Germany	强制推行不仅对德国有害的政策
258	because it touches our national security interest,	因为它触及我们的国家安全利益,
259	but also the other European nation states.	还有其他欧洲国家
260	We think, and this is our opinion,	我们认为,这是我们的看法,
261	that this policy being undertaken by the German government right now	德国政府目前正在执行这项政策
262	is very harmful for the national security of Germany	危害德国国家安全
263	and also for the other European states.	也是为了其他欧洲国家
264	Therefore, proposing that we need to go immediately,	因此,提议我们需要立即去,
265	that we need to enforce peace talks	我们需要执行和谈
266	to end this terrible war in the Ukraine.	结束乌克兰这场可怕的战争
267	I think everyone would like the war in Ukraine to end.	我想每个人都希望乌克兰战争结束。
268	Let's unpack what you're saying here.	我们来收拾一下你说的
269	Oh, not our government, actually.	其实不是我们的政府
270	Well, let's unpack this.	好吧,让我们打开这个。
271	One of the main reasons for the increase in NATO spending	北约支出增加的主要原因之一
272	and for Germany's is that many countries in Europe	德国认为欧洲许多国家
273	and many people in this country see Russia as a threat.	这个国家很多人把俄罗斯视为威胁
274	Do you see Russia as a threat beyond Ukraine?	你是否将俄罗斯视为乌克兰以外的威胁?
275	Do you think it is a threat to European countries, to NATO members?	你认为这是对欧洲国家、北约成员的威胁吗?
276	I think it's not a question about threat or not being a threat.	我认为这不是威胁与否的问题.
277	I think German foreign or Germany's foreign policy	我认为德国的外交政策
278	should be evaluated by the criterion	应根据标准进行评估
279	if it serves our national interest or not.	如果这是否符合我们的国家利益。
280	And being or acting like this as our government currently,	和作为现在的政府,
281	it leads to a situation that is very harmful	它导致一种非常有害的情况
282	for us.	为了我们
283	I haven't mentioned the sanctions.	我没有提到制裁。
284	Well, while we impose one sanction package after the other,	好吧,虽然我们实施一个又一个制裁包,
285	Donald Trump talks with Vladimir Putin	唐纳德·特朗普与弗拉基米尔·普京会谈
286	about the delivery of further diesel	关于进一步交付柴油
287	and also about oil and gas, right?	还有石油和天然气,对吧?
288	Well, we would like to have the same thing for Germany	我们想对德国也一样
289	because we need to lower our energy cost.	因为我们需要降低能源成本。
290	So therefore, we are very pragmatic.	因此,我们非常务实。
291	We would like to have a peace	我们希望有一个和平
292	that also serves the interests of the Ukrainians	也符合乌克兰人的利益
293	and also the security interests of Russia.	以及俄罗斯的安全利益。
294	But it is, and this is our stance, it is not our war.	但是,这就是我们的立场,不是我们的战争。
295	And it's very dangerous and it's very costly, especially for us.	这非常危险,而且非常昂贵,尤其是对我们来说。
296	Germany has spent, if you have to imagine this number,	德国已经花费了,如果你不得不想象这个数字,
297	Germany has been spent over 100 billion of euros	德国已经花费超过1000亿欧元
298	for the war in Ukraine.	乌克兰战争
299	And this is quite dangerous.	这很危险
300	And also in dangerous Germany as a state,	在危险的德国,作为一个州,
301	because right now we could be already a target.	因为现在我们可以成为目标了
302	Well, there was a foiled, luckily,	嗯,有一个失败,幸运的是,
303	attack on Leipzig airport from the Russians.	从俄国进攻莱比锡机场
304	Well, to be honest, I'm not, so I'm not an eyewitness of that	老实说,我不是,所以我不是目击证人
305	and I'm not an advocate for pro-Ukrainian	我不是亲乌克兰的倡导者
306	or pro-Russian policy.	或亲俄政策.
307	For me, it is relevant what evidences do we have.	对我来说,我们掌握的证据是相关的。
308	Because now it is very important,	因为现在很重要
309	like with this so-called drone or attempted drone attack.	就像这次所谓的无人机攻击或者试图发动无人机攻击
310	Well, we haven't seen any evidence in the parliament.	我们议会还没有看到任何证据
311	It was just said.	刚才有人说
312	But what we have in the sea	但我们在海中拥有的东西
313	is we have destroyed Nord Stream pipelines.	我们摧毁了北流的管道
314	And that was a state terror attack on the German infrastructure	这是对德国基础设施的国家恐怖袭击
315	being very harmful for Germany, for us.	对德国和我们都非常有害
316	Like destroying like an energy infrastructure	就像破坏能源基础设施一样
317	being like worth like, I don't know,	像价值一样,我不知道,
318	like almost 30 billion euros.	差不多300亿欧元
319	And like cutting off the entire Europe,	就像切断整个欧洲一样
320	cutting off Europe and especially Germany	切断欧洲,特别是德国
321	from Russian gas especially.	特别是俄罗斯天然气
322	And I think like we need to follow the facts.	我认为,我们需要遵循事实。
323	And we see that the facts,	而我们看到事实
324	like with the terror attacks on Nord Stream,	就像对北流的恐怖袭击一样
325	they are ignored by our politicians.	我们的政治家们对他们视而不见
326	And the other one, there is evidence missing.	而另一个, 有证据缺失。
327	So we ask for evidence and there's no evidence.	故求证而无证.
328	Can we just step back?	我们能退一步吗?
329	I agree with you the importance of following the facts.	我同意跟踪事实的重要性。
330	And the facts are that in February 2022,	而事实是,2022年2月,
331	Russia attacked Ukraine.	俄罗斯进攻乌克兰.
332	And Russia has since then been attacking Ukraine.	而俄国从此开始进攻乌克兰.
333	And you say that you want a peace that is good for Ukraine.	你说你想有一个对乌克兰有利的和平。
334	I think many people want a peace that is good for Ukraine.	我认为许多人希望有一个对乌克兰有利的和平。
335	Ukraine is under constant bombardment.	乌克兰不断遭到轰炸。
336	I was in Kiev just a few weeks ago.	几周前我在基辅
337	I was there for a week in Ukraine.	我在乌克兰呆了一个星期
338	I have witnessed it myself, the constant bombardment	我亲眼目睹了不断的轰炸
339	from Russian drones, from Russian ballistic missiles.	俄罗斯无人机,俄罗斯弹道导弹
340	Ukraine is trying to defend itself against an aggressor.	乌克兰正试图抵御侵略者。
341	Do you not think it is appropriate for Germany	你不认为这对德国合适吗?
342	and for other West European countries	其他西欧国家
343	to support a country that is a democratic country	支持一个民主国家
344	trying to defend itself against this outright aggression?	试图抵御这场公然侵略?
345	Well, it's as democratic as it is.	嗯,这是民主的。
346	They have no elections anymore of a new president.	他们不再选举新总统。
347	That's a reason why the American president,	这就是为什么美国总统,
348	he claims new elections for the president	他要求重新选举总统
349	because he thinks that Zelensky is not the right person	因为他认为泽伦斯基不是合适的人
350	at the right time.	在正确的时间。
351	They don't have elections right now	他们现在没有选举
352	because it's in the war and there's martial law.	因为它是在战争和有戒严。
353	But it's still.	却依旧.
354	When we talk about an aggressor and someone not being an aggressor,	当我们谈论侵略者和不是侵略者的人时,
355	we also criticized the Russian attack on Ukraine	我们也批评了俄国对乌克兰的攻击
356	because Ukraine is a sovereign country.	因为乌克兰是一个主权国家。
357	Full stop, there's no discussion about it.	完全停止,没有讨论这个问题。
358	But now, as you said before, we are in the status quo right now.	但现在,正如你之前所说,我们现在处于现状。
359	And the status quo is terrible, not only for the people dying	不仅对垂死的人们来说现状也很糟糕
360	and for the families losing their sons	和失去儿子的家属,
361	and the damaging of infrastructures, refineries,	以及破坏基础设施、炼油厂、
362	with skyrocketing diesel prices	柴油价格暴涨
363	and incredibly high security risk for all countries,	对所有国家而言,安全风险极高,
364	especially European countries.	特别是欧洲国家。
365	So therefore, we need to put this to an end.	因此,我们需要结束这种情况。
366	And this is in our, because I'm a German politician,	这是属于我们的因为我是德国政治家
367	I have to judge every foreign policy of Germany.	我必须评判德国的外交政策
368	Is it in our national interests or is it not?	这是否符合我们的国家利益?
369	The prolongation and the measures being taken	延长期限和正在采取的措施
370	by the German governments right now	德国政府现在
371	impose a huge risk on our country.	给我国带来巨大风险。
372	And we think, I think, it is wrong to continue	我们认为,我认为,继续是错的
373	with a prolongation of a financing of an already lost war.	并延长对已经失去的战争的资助。
374	The Ukraine, unfortunately, you can say,	不幸的是,乌克兰,你可以说,
375	really, the Ukraine is too small.	实际上,乌克兰太小了。
376	The Ukraine cannot win against Russia.	乌克兰无法战胜俄罗斯。
377	It is impossible.	这是不可能的。
378	When you say it's an already lost war,	当你说这场战争已经输了
379	does that mean that you would be comfortable	这是否意味着你会很舒服
380	with Ukraine ceasing to exist as an independent country?	与乌克兰不再作为一个独立国家存在?
381	No, of course not.	不,当然不是。
382	So if Ukraine should exist as an independent country,	因此,如果乌克兰作为一个独立国家存在,
383	it will need support to do that.	这样做将需要支持。
384	Do you agree with that?	你同意吗?
385	Well, you cannot come to a peace agreement	你不能达成和平协议
386	if you prolong this war.	如果你延长这场战争。
387	But Vladimir Putin has no interest in peace.	但弗拉基米尔·普京对和平没有兴趣.
388	The Ukrainians say they would have a ceasefire.	乌克兰人说,他们将实现停火。
389	Can you give me one piece of evidence	你能给我一个证据吗?
390	that he is interested in peace?	他对和平感兴趣吗?
391	Can you give me one piece of evidence	你能给我一个证据吗?
392	that Zelensky is interested in peace?	泽连斯基对和平感兴趣?
393	He's constant.	恒无量劫.
394	He's offered an energy ceasefire now.	他现在提出能源停火
395	They were in Florida talking about peace deals.	他们在佛罗里达谈和谈
396	The Ukrainians are absolutely willing	乌克兰人绝对愿意
397	to start talking about peace.	开始谈论和平。
398	It is Vladimir Putin who is not interested in a peace deal	是弗拉基米尔·普京对和平协议不感兴趣
399	because he thinks that he can pulverize Ukrainian cities	因为他认为他能摧毁乌克兰的城市
400	over the winter as he is now doing.	在冬天,他现在正在做。
401	And it seems to me that what you are suggesting,	在我看来你的意思是
402	and I just want to make sure I've understood this,	我只是想确定我理解这一点,
403	you are suggesting stopping all German financial	你建议停止所有德国金融
404	and military support, all European support.	以及军事支持,所有欧洲支持。
405	Is that right?	是吗?
406	Is that your preferred policy?	那是你喜欢的政策吗?
407	We already spent over 100 billion.	我们已经花费了超过1000亿。
408	No other country has spent that much.	没有其他国家花那么多钱。
409	And we are highly indebted.	我们负债累累。
410	Yeah, I have the interests of my country first.	是啊,我首先有我的国家的利益。
411	It's Germany first.	是德国第一.
412	And this war is not in our interest.	这场战争不符合我们的利益
413	And it's very dangerous for our national security.	这对我们的国家安全非常危险
414	And I am repeating myself, if diplomacy sits at the table,	我再说一遍,如果外交坐到桌上来
415	there's always history sitting at the table as well.	总是有历史坐在桌子上。
416	So we need to view the development	所以我们需要看看发展
417	not only on the single event of February 2022.	不仅在2022年2月的单项活动中
418	And this is not a justification of the attack on the Ukraine.	这不是攻击乌克兰的理由。
419	It is not a justification.	这不是理由。
420	What I'm trying to say is that there's history	我想说的是有历史
421	about the encroachment of NATO to the Russian border.	北约侵犯俄罗斯边境
422	Russia emphasized this problem several times.	俄罗斯多次强调这一问题。
423	So why nobody listened to the Russian concerns	所以为什么没人听俄国人的话
424	when there were rocket systems being put at the borders,	当有火箭系统被放置在边境时,
425	especially at Romania,	特别是在罗马尼亚
426	and then being able to carry nuclear devices	能够携带核装置
427	such as the Aegis rocket system.	例如Aegis火箭系统。
428	I don't know the English word.	不识英字.
429	But what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of history.	但是,我想说的是,有很多历史.
430	I agree with that.	我同意这一点。
431	In order to have a peace in the Ukraine,	为了在乌克兰实现和平,
432	we need to take not only Ukraine's security interests into account,	我们不仅需要考虑到乌克兰的安全利益,
433	but also Russia's security interests into account.	但也考虑到俄罗斯的安全利益。
434	And this was in the past,	这是在过去,
435	and this has been the major mistake like the 20 years before,	这是20年前的重大错误
436	to not acknowledging the security concerns of Russia.	不承认俄罗斯的安全关切。
437	I agree that Ukraine and Russia's security and concerns	我同意乌克兰和俄罗斯的安全和关切
438	need to be taken into account.	需要加以考虑。
439	But I would argue that if, as you are suggesting,	但我会说,如果,像你建议的那样,
440	you cut off military and financial support to Ukraine,	你切断了对乌克兰的军事和财政支持,
441	it will be impossible for Ukraine to survive.	乌克兰将不可能生存下去。
442	But more importantly, I agree with you that history matters.	但更重要的是,我同意历史很重要的观点。
443	But the history, and Vladimir Putin is a big student of history,	但历史弗拉基米尔·普京是一个伟大的历史学生,
444	and Vladimir Putin has shown no signs	弗拉基米尔·普京没有显示任何迹象
445	of acknowledging Ukraine's right to exist.	承认乌克兰的生存权。
446	And more broadly, he would like to recreate the former Soviet Union.	更广泛地说,他想重塑前苏联。
447	And so I think the real threat that you seem to gloss over	所以我觉得真正的威胁你似乎掩盖了
448	is that there is a threat beyond Ukraine,	乌克兰境外存在威胁,
449	a threat to the Baltics, a threat to countries inside NATO.	对波罗的海的威胁对北约内部国家的威胁
450	Are you absolutely confident that there is no risk of that?	你完全相信没有风险吗?
451	Well, prolonging the war and shooting drones	延长战争和拍摄无人机
452	like into the hinterland of Russia, destroying refineries,	譬如在俄国的内陆,毁灭了炼油厂,
453	destroying also housings and buildings near Moscow,	还摧毁莫斯科附近的住房和建筑物,
454	it is a huge provocation.	这是一种巨大的挑衅。
455	It's defending itself.	它在自卫
456	Look, look, no.	看,看,没有。
457	Every evening, every night, drones and ballistic missiles	每天晚上,每晚,无人机和弹道导弹
458	rain down on Ukraine.	乌克兰降下大雨
459	It is very risky, the strategy.	战略非常危险。
460	And we have been criticizing this strategy.	我们一直在批评这一策略。
461	We want to end this war.	我们要结束这场战争
462	And it doesn't help if a country goes for drone attacks	如果一个国家发动无人机袭击也没用
463	against a country that have nuclear weapons.	对抗拥有核武器的国家。
464	It doesn't make sense, I'm sorry to say.	说不通,我很遗憾
465	And it's very risky and it's very stupid.	而且风险很大,而且非常愚蠢.
466	And I just, I keep repeating myself, we need to end this.	我只是,我一直在重复, 我们需要结束这一切。
467	And we need to actually put pressure on the Ukrainian president	我们要对乌克兰总统施压
468	to have the willingness to end the dying	有结束死亡的意愿
469	and this very risky strategy for entire Europe.	和这个非常危险的策略对于整个欧洲。
470	Like the US, for instance, they have the Atlantic in between.	比如说,与美国一样,它们之间有大西洋。
471	It's not, so it's not in their security interests,	这不是,所以这不符合他们的安全利益,
472	not at all.	一点也不
473	We are affected as Europeans and therefore we should have,	我们作为欧洲人受到影响,因此我们应当:
474	we should have the major interest to end this war.	我们应该有重大的利益结束这场战争。
475	You've made your position very clear.	你已经把立场说得很清楚了
476	I understand it now.	我现在明白了
477	I think as you can tell, I don't agree with it,	我想如你所说我不同意
478	but that doesn't matter.	但这不重要
479	I completely understand it.	我完全理解这一点。
480	Let me turn to another subject that you mentioned briefly earlier	让我谈谈你刚才简短提到的另一个问题。
481	where I think people are trying to understand	我觉得人们在试图理解
482	exactly what your party stands for.	这正是你的党代表。
483	You mentioned what you call mass migration.	你提到你所谓的大规模迁徙。
484	And you increasingly use this word remigration.	你越来越多地使用这个词重新移民。
485	You say you are in favor of remigration.	你说你赞成再移民
486	Can you explain to me exactly what remigration means?	你能解释一下重新移民到底意味着什么吗?
487	Yes, absolutely.	是的,当然。
488	Remigration for us is the consequent implementation	对我们来说,移民是随之而来的
489	and execution of existing law.	执行现有法律。
490	Therefore, illegal people who crossed our borders illegally	因此,非法越境者
491	having no right to stay in our country,	没有权利留在我国
492	whose asylum seeking has been rejected,	其庇护申请被拒绝者,
493	people who commit crime,	犯罪的人,
494	these people, they are obliged to leave our country.	他们必须离开我们的国家
495	And we only want this law enforcement,	我们只想要这个执法部门
496	which is already in place,	已经存在,
497	but there is no execution by the existing government.	但现任政府并没有执行死刑。
498	That's very clear.	这是非常清楚的。
499	Yes.	对
500	And this is our definition of remigration.	这是我们对移民的定义。
501	That's very clear.	这是非常清楚的。
502	Nothing more, nothing less.	没有更多,没有更少。
503	That is along the order of 260,000 people who are asylum seekers.	这是大约260 000名寻求庇护者。
504	But it is not, because there are people in your party	但事实并非如此,因为你党里有人
505	who talk about millions of people being migrated.	他们谈论数百万人被迁移。
506	Millions of people.	百万众生.
507	Do you disavow that?	你拒绝吗?
508	Because they must include foreign-born naturalized Germans.	因为他们必须包括外国出生的归化德国人.
509	They must include people who are here.	他们必须包括在这里的人。
510	Can you categorically say,	你能明确地说,
511	because I think there are many people of foreign background	因为我觉得有很多有外国背景的人
512	who are very frightened by the AFD in this country.	他们非常害怕这个国家的AFD。
513	So it would be helpful, I think, for you to be very clear on this.	因此,我认为,你应该非常清楚这一点。
514	People who are here legally,	合法来的人
515	whether they are Syrian or Afghani or whatever,	无论他们是叙利亚人还是阿富汗人,
516	they can stay here and they are welcome by you.	他们可以呆在这里,欢迎你。
517	Well, to be honest, our law states, our asylum law states,	老实说我们的法律庇护法规定
518	that in the case that the reason for coming to our country,	如果来我国的原因
519	like especially for the Syrians,	就像叙利亚人一样,
520	let's take that example because you mentioned that,	举个例子吧因为你提到,
521	that the reason is gone, right, for being here	来这的理由已经消失
522	because there are refugees, asylum seekers,	因为有难民,寻求庇护者,
523	they need shelter, here they get tons of money from the state,	他们需要庇护这里他们从国家得到很多钱
524	but it doesn't matter right now.	现在无所谓了
525	They have to go back to their country.	他们必须回到自己的国家。
526	They have to leave our country.	他们必须离开我们的国家。
527	What is our government doing?	我们的政府在做什么?
528	The government's doing nothing.	政府无所作为.
529	To send these people, Syrians, back to Syria.	把这些人,叙利亚人,送回叙利亚。
530	Because the Syrian, I think, foreign minister,	因为叙利亚,我想,外交部长,
531	he already said like, look, of course,	他已经说过,当然,
532	we are not taking back our Syrian citizens	我们不会拿回我们的叙利亚公民
533	because there are a strategic asset in Germany.	因为德国有战略资产
534	So, and this says everything, right?	所以,这说明一切,对不对?
535	Our chancellor, he just talks and doesn't do anything,	我们的长官,他只是说话,没有做任何事情,
536	no reform, nothing.	没有改革,什么都没有。
537	He said like, oh, we need to send back 80% of the Syrians.	他说,哦,我们需要送回80%的叙利亚人。
538	It's Chancellor Friedrich Merz.	是弗里德里希·默兹总理
539	No one has been sent back	没有人被送回去
540	because the strategic asset has to stay here.	因为战略资产必须留在这里
541	Therefore, the law enforcement is very clear in Germany.	因此,德国的执法非常明确.
542	100% of the Syrians, because the war ended in Syria,	100%的叙利亚人因为战争在叙利亚结束
543	100% of the Syrian citizens have to go back to their country,	100%的叙利亚公民必须返回祖国,
544	as well as the Afghans,	以及阿富汗人,
545	which our government decided to actually fly into our country.	我们的政府决定飞入我国
546	I don't know how you would possibly come to this obnoxious policy	我不知道你会怎么来这个讨厌的政策
547	to fly in Afghans out of Afghanistan	在阿富汗人中飞出阿富汗
548	because our crime rate has been skyrocketing since 2015,	因为我们的犯罪率自2015年以来飞涨,
549	since the border opening.	自从边境开放以来
550	And the main group of the worst crimes,	和主要群体最坏的罪行,
551	like raping, like killing people,	像强奸, 像杀人,
552	so the main category are Syrians and Afghans.	因此,主要的类别是叙利亚人和阿富汗人。
553	So we need to send these people back	所以我们得把这些人送回去
554	and we need to detain criminals	我们需要拘留罪犯
555	and also religious extremist leaders.	以及宗教极端主义领导人。
556	We don't want a caliphate in our country.	我们国家不想有哈里发
557	And of course, the Syrian president, for instance,	当然,叙利亚总统,例如,
558	he maybe wants to have that,	他也许想拥有它,
559	otherwise his foreign minister wouldn't talk about a foreign asset,	否则他的外交部长不会谈论外国资产
560	like a strategic asset in Germany,	像德国的战略资产,
561	like keeping the people here.	就像把人留在这
562	So therefore, we are having severe problems	因此,我们有严重的问题
563	of integrating these people.	融合这些人。
564	And I haven't mentioned the Ukrainians,	我还没提到乌克兰人
565	also the Ukrainians have to leave our country	乌克兰人也要离开我们的国家
566	when this war will be ended.	战争何时结束
567	So this is the sum of millions of people	这就是数百万人的总和
568	because it adds up to four to five million, four roughly,	因为它加起来有四到五百万大约四百万
569	and they have to leave our country.	他们必须离开我们的国家。
570	But our government does the opposite.	但我们的政府却采取相反的做法.
571	They throw away our German passport.	他们扔掉了我们的德国护照
572	After five years of staying in our country,	在我国呆了五年
573	you get our passport automatically.	你自动拿到我们的护照
574	Why?	为什么?
575	You need to, everyone with a migration background,	你需要,所有有移民背景的人,
576	every foreigner is welcome in Germany.	每个外国人在德国都受欢迎
577	We embrace people, professionals who want to work here,	我们接纳那些想在这里工作的专业人士
578	who make their contribution to our welfare system,	他们对我们的福利制度作出贡献,
579	to our society, being nice, not committing crimes.	对我们的社会来说,是善良的,不是犯罪。
580	Everyone is welcome.	大家欢迎
581	I love it.	我喜欢它。
582	Everyone loves it in my party.	每个人都喜欢我的派对
583	And we would like to really, to send these people back	我们想把这些人送回去
584	and execute existing law that haven't been done.	并且执行还没有完成的现行法律。
585	Can I just play two of those back?	我能弹两声吗?
586	You've said that you want to send all Syrians back,	你说你想把所有叙利亚人送回去
587	all Afghans back, all Ukrainians as soon as the war is over,	所有阿富汗人回来所有乌克兰人一旦战争结束
588	which you've told me you want to finish very soon.	你告诉我,你想完成很快。
589	You've also said everybody who is skilled is welcome here.	你也说过欢迎所有有技术的人
590	You just said.	你刚刚说。
591	Syrians are the biggest group of foreign-born doctors in Germany.	叙利亚人是德国最大的外国出生的医生群体.
592	There are, I think, 100,000 German doctors over the age of 60.	我认为,60岁以上的德国医生有10万人。
593	It's about a quarter of the total.	大约占总数的四分之一.
594	They are going to retire very soon.	他们很快就要退休了
595	You have a huge shortage of doctors coming.	你非常缺乏医生来。
596	You already have one.	你已经有了一个。
597	Are you really saying it is a sensible policy	你真的说这是明智的政策吗?
598	to throw out Syrian doctors and send them back,	扔出叙利亚医生,送他们回去,
599	given the shortage?	鉴于短缺?
600	I use that as a concrete example,	我用这个作为具体的例子,
601	but it's true across many aspects of Germany,	但德国的许多方面都是如此
602	because you have a rapidly aging population	因为你人口迅速老化
603	and a serious shortage of workers.	和工人严重短缺。
604	I think in this discussion, which is very important,	我认为这次讨论很重要,
605	we shouldn't mix up the asylum system on one hand	我们不应该把庇护制度混为一谈
606	and then people coming to Germany with a working visa,	然后人们带着工作签证来到德国,
607	with a qualification, being a professional, paying taxes.	有资质, 专业, 交税。
608	These people are welcome.	这些人是欢迎。
609	So therefore, we shouldn't mix it up.	因此,我们不应该把它混为一谈。
610	I talked about people that are still unrightful here	我说了这里的人还是不正确
611	because law is not implemented.	因为法律没有得到执行。
612	I didn't talk about the professionals,	我没有谈论专业的,
613	like the professional Syrian, for instance,	例如,像专业的叙利亚人,
614	or other qualified foreigners.	或其他合格的外国人。
615	I didn't talk about them.	我没有谈论他们。
616	We need them, of course,	当然我们需要他们
617	because we have disadvantages,	因为我们有缺点,
618	demographics, like other countries as well.	和其他国家一样的人口统计。
619	So therefore, we need to attract professionals.	因此,我们需要吸引专业人员。
620	We cannot attract professionals if we leave criminals,	如果我们离开罪犯我们就不能吸引专业人士
621	actually foreign criminals, who distort our public order,	其实是外国罪犯, 扭曲我们的公共秩序,
622	who distort our welfare system,	他们扭曲我们的福利制度,
623	leaving our borders open.	离开我们的边界。
624	We cannot attract these people anymore,	我们不能再吸引这些人了
625	because they say, look,	因为他们说,你看,
626	it's very dangerous being on German streets, right?	在德国街头很危险,对吧?
627	And the taxes are very high.	而赋税甚高.
628	And the bureaucracy is ridiculous.	官僚主义是荒谬的。
629	These professionals, we are not able to attract anymore.	这些专业人士,我们不能再吸引了。
630	The people don't want to come to Germany to work.	人民不愿来德国工作.
631	And also, we have a different effect.	还有,我们有不同的效果。
632	Hundred thousands of qualified Germans,	成千上万合格的德国人
633	they leave our country now.	他们现在离开了我们的国家。
634	We have a huge brain drain	我们有巨大的人才外流
635	because the reason is always the same.	因为原因总是一样
636	They say, like, look, the taxes are too high.	他们说,就像,你看, 税收太高。
637	We cannot finance our family.	我们不能为我们的家庭提供资金。
638	We cannot finance to buy a house.	我们不能买房子
639	And then we don't know if we are secure	然后我们不知道我们是否安全
640	in our public transportation system.	我们的公共交通系统。
641	What's about the educational system for our children?	我们的孩子的教育制度怎么样?
642	Are they safe?	他们安全吗?
643	Being safe in school,	在学校很安全
644	because we have a lot of violence in school.	因为我们在学校有很多暴力
645	It's being imposed by, I'm very sorry to say,	这是被强迫的,我很抱歉说,
646	but we have to talk about it,	但我们得谈谈
647	by children of Muslim descent,	穆斯林后裔儿童,
648	like beating up our children in school.	就像在学校里殴打我们的孩子
649	So therefore, the people are very afraid.	因此,人民非常害怕。
650	And they say, like, look, we have to leave our country	他们说,就像,你看, 我们必须离开我们的国家
651	because something went into disorder.	因为有些事情陷入混乱
652	And they'd rather work in the US or in Switzerland	他们宁愿在美国或瑞士工作
653	or somewhere else, but not in Germany anymore.	或其他地方,但不再在德国。
654	And we need to be attractive.	我们需要有吸引力。
655	Sorry, just to make sure I understand,	对不起,只是为了让我明白
656	you want those who are here illegally	你要找那些非法来的人
657	and those who have failed asylum applications need to go.	庇护申请失败者必须离开。
658	But you welcome professional skills.	但你欢迎专业技能
659	But then your colleagues in the state of Saxony-Anhalt	但你在萨克森-安哈尔特州的同事
660	in their recent manifesto wrote that Germany	德国在最近宣言中写道:
661	should not rely on, quote,	不应该依赖,引用,
662	culturally alien skilled workers.	文化外的熟练工人。
663	That was a bad idea, they said.	他们说那是个坏主意
664	That phrase, which is really a dog whistle for Muslim doctors,	这句子,对穆斯林医生来说真是狗哨子,
665	for skilled workers from Muslim countries,	对来自穆斯林国家的熟练工人,
666	is one that I think is very, very scary for many people.	我认为这对许多人来说是非常非常可怕的。
667	It is an extreme phrase.	这是一个极端的短语。
668	Do you disavow that phrase?	你拒绝这句话吗?
669	Or do you also agree that Germany	或者你也同意德国
670	should not have culturally alien skilled workers?	不应该有文化上陌生的熟练工人?
671	Good question.	问得好
672	Thank you very much for asking me.	非常感谢你问我。
673	And I would like to clarify the sentence,	我想澄清这句话,
674	which is not that scary to me.	这对我来说并不可怕。
675	We have indeed examples that, for instance,	我们确实有实例,例如,
676	in a professional work, women are not accepted.	在专业工作中,妇女不被接受。
677	So we have here in Berlin, wonderful Berlin,	因此,我们在这里的柏林, 美妙的柏林,
678	in the police of Berlin, we had like a couple of years ago,	在柏林的警察里,我们像几年前,
679	the case that policemen of Muslim descent,	穆斯林血统的警察,
680	they didn't shake the hands of their female co-workers.	他们没有和女同事握手
681	They didn't do practices in the swimming pool, swimming practices,	他们没有在游泳池练习,游泳练习,
682	because women were in the water before.	因为以前女人都在水里
683	Then we have language difficulties.	那么我们的语言有困难。
684	It is very important that a doctor understands the patient, right,	重要的是医生要了解病人,对吗?
685	and also shakes their hands,	并握手,
686	and doesn't think that a woman is inferior to a man.	且不以为妇贱于男.
687	I think this is what my colleagues meant by this,	我想这就是我的同事的意思,
688	and this is common sense.	这是常识
689	It cannot be a case in a freedom-loving society	在一个热爱自由的社会中,这是不可能的
690	in which men and women should be equal, right?	男人和女人应该平等对吧?
691	Does that mean then you think Germany should have fewer people of Muslim descent?	难道你认为德国应该减少穆斯林血统?
692	No, I'm not saying that.	不我不是那个意思
693	I just named some examples where it doesn't work, right?	我刚刚举了一些例子,它不起作用,对不对?
694	And I wouldn't put a quota, no,	我不会放一个配额,不,
695	because there are many Muslims who suffer under this situation,	因为有许多穆斯林在此情况下遭受苦难,
696	or suffer in this situation.	或在此情况下受苦。
697	There are well-integrated people who work in our country,	在我国工作的人很融洽
698	who also think that something went wrong in our integration policy,	他们也认为我们的融合政策出了问题
699	because there are, unfortunately, too many people,	因为不幸的是,有太多的人,
700	and this country is not able to integrate all of them, unfortunately.	不幸的是,这个国家无法融合所有这些人。
701	So it's a question of integration and behavior,	所以这是一个整合和行为的问题,
702	not of faith, skin color.	不是信仰,是肤色
703	You are happy for people who are integrated.	你为融合的人感到高兴。
704	You are concerned about people who are not.	你担心的不是别人
705	Is that right?	是吗?
706	Thank you for mentioning the skin color.	谢谢你提到肤色
707	The skin color, it doesn't matter, and it shouldn't be,	皮肤的颜色,它不重要, 它不应该是,
708	because otherwise there is a racist argument about it, right?	否则就会引起种族主义的争论,对吧?
709	For us, we don't care.	对我们来说,我们不在乎。
710	I don't care if somebody is dark-colored, like my wife, or white-colored.	我不管别人是黑色的像我妻子还是白色的
711	What counts is merit.	重要的是功绩。
712	We need to have a merit-based system,	我们需要一个基于成绩的制度,
713	and not a quota and anti-discrimination quota.	而不是配额和反歧视配额。
714	When you speak, and in our conversation,	当你说话, 在我们的谈话中,
715	you've described yourself as a libertarian conservative,	你形容自己是自由主义者保守派
716	and I sometimes scratch my head about what a libertarian conservative is,	我有时候会为自由主义者的保守主义感到头疼
717	but you focus on personal freedom.	但你专注于个人自由。
718	But when I read, and I read the,	但当我读到,我读到,
719	I think it's all 252 pages of the manifesto of your colleagues in Sachsen-Anhalt,	我认为这是你同事在萨赫森 -安哈尔特宣言的全部252页,
720	and I understand it's a state manifesto,	我知道这是州宣言,
721	not the formal party's federal manifesto,	不是正式党的联邦宣言,
722	but there are a number of things in there	但里面有很多东西
723	that do not sound very libertarian to me,	听起来不太自由,
724	that sound really very extreme.	这听起来真的很极端。
725	And I'm asking this because, as you know,	我问这个是因为,你知道,
726	many people worry that you are an extreme, hard-right, far-right party.	很多人担心你是一个极端的, 硬的,极右的党。
727	I know you deny it, but that is what,	我知道你否认,但这就是...
728	and when I read this manifesto,	当我读到这个宣言时,
729	I thought I can understand why people worry about it.	我以为我能理解人们为什么担心它。
730	The manifesto calls for removing the children of refugees	宣言呼吁将难民的子女带走
731	and disabled children from school classrooms.	学校教室里的残疾儿童。
732	It calls for Heimatkunde, a study of the country's history.	召海马特昆德,国史研究.
733	It wants more Bismarck, less Hitler in the curriculum,	它想要更多的俾斯麦, 少希特勒在课程,
734	a punishment for offending the German state.	对触犯德国国家的惩罚
735	It seems to me that this is a manifesto for a party	在我看来,这是一个党的宣言
736	that wants to actively use the state to create a particular kind of Germany.	想要积极利用国家来创造德国
737	That's not libertarian.	这不是自由主义者。
738	That's much more like what most people call the far right.	这更像大多数人所说的"最正确".
739	Well, for us, we, actually, some examples I like,	对我们来说,我们,实际上,一些我喜欢的例子,
740	like, for instance, Heimatkunde and more Bismarck and Goethe and Schiller	比如海马昆德和更多的俾斯麦歌德和席勒
741	and less Hitler would be good,	少一点希特勒会好
742	because people forget our history, our long history.	因为人们忘记了我们的历史,我们漫长的历史。
743	But I don't want to talk about that.	但我不想谈这个
744	I just want to explain the position of my colleagues in Sachsen-Anhalt,	我只想解释一下我在Sachsen-Anhalt的同事的立场,
745	who won, actually, 45% of the votes there,	他们赢得了45%的选票
746	that they want to have a Germany that is in order.	他们想要一个有秩序的德国。
747	We have a positive vision of Germany.	我们对德国抱有积极的看法。
748	We want to have secure borders.	我们希望有安全的边界。
749	We want to have families who are able to afford a house,	我们希望有家庭谁能买得起房子,
750	who are able to afford a family,	他们能负担一个家庭,
751	and having secure streets, secure schools.	拥有安全的街道,安全的学校。
752	And I think it's common sense.	我觉得这是常识
753	And I'm very sorry.	我非常遗憾。
754	This entire framing of being hard right, far right,	这整个框架很难对,非常对,
755	it's not true.	这不是真的。
756	Why should it be the case?	为什么应该这样?
757	Why is it far right, hard right, extremist right	为什么这是非常正确的,硬的右,极端的右
758	to be an advocate for secure borders against illegal migration,	倡导建立安全边界,打击非法移徙,
759	being against the destruction of our energy infrastructure?	反对破坏我们的能源基础设施?
760	It is, from my perspective, common sense.	从我的角度来看,这是常识。
761	And therefore, we would like to preserve the positive values	因此,我们希望维护积极的价值观。
762	of our countries and extrapolate it in the future.	并在未来推断出这一点。
763	And we want a country that is normal and in order.	我们希望有一个正常和有序的国家。
764	And being on a level playing field with our European partners,	和我们的欧洲伙伴在公平竞争中,
765	and also being a partner to Great Britain, to the US, to Russia.	同时也是大不列颠、美国、俄罗斯的伙伴。
766	And I think we are on the wrong path,	我认为我们走错了路,
767	but not only in Germany, also in Great Britain and in other countries.	不仅在德国, 在大不列颠和其他国家。
768	We talked about it.	我们谈过了
769	And I think what we are lacking is normal policies for the people.	我认为我们所缺乏的是对人民的正常政策。
770	And that is the reason why we advocate for common sense policy.	这就是为什么我们提倡常识政策。
771	And I wouldn't call it far right or extremist.	我也不会说这是非常正确或极端的。
772	So let me just...	让我...
773	It's very normal, actually.	其实很正常
774	Let me just quote you one more one, which says,	让我再引用一个,它说,
775	quote, an intact family consisting of mother, father and children	引用,由母亲、父亲和子女组成的完整家庭
776	is proven to be the best prerequisite for good and healthy child development.	事实证明,这是儿童健康成长的最佳先决条件。
777	That is what it says in the manifesto.	宣言中就是这么说的。
778	You mentioned your wife.	你提到你的妻子。
779	You and your wife are raising two children in Switzerland.	你和你妻子在瑞士抚养两个孩子
780	She is Sri Lankan born.	她出生于斯里兰卡。
781	You clearly do not follow this description.	你显然没有遵循这个描述。
782	Well, I don't need to.	好吧,我没有必要。
783	Well, I don't need to because actually my wife is Swiss.	好吧,我不需要,因为实际上我的妻子是瑞士人。
784	That's the reason why.	故说.
785	And it's always a fun fact.	且道常是乐事.
786	But anyway, I can advocate for a family comprising	但无论如何,我可以倡导一个家庭组成
787	of a man, of a woman and children,	一个男人,一个妇女和儿童,
788	because this is a model in which over 90 percent of the children grow up.	因为这是90%以上儿童成长的模式。
789	I can be for this model.	我可以为这个模型。
790	And I also signed this.	我也签了这个
791	And the party, for instance, completely tolerates a model like me.	例如,派对完全容忍我这样的模特儿
792	But it may be also the fact I'm very liberal about lifestyles.	但也可能是因为我对生活方式很自由
793	I think everyone should live his own life	我觉得每个人都应该过自己的生活
794	and the state should not interfere in every aspect of life.	国家不应干涉生活的各个方面。
795	And I'm completely opposing the queer policy and gender stuff.	我完全反对同性恋政策和性别的东西。
796	I think this really distorts people, especially when they are young.	我认为这真的扭曲了人们,特别是当他们年轻的时候。
797	For instance, in Germany, they got this law in the last government	例如,在德国,上届政府里他们有这部法律
798	that young people can change their, not only young people,	年轻人可以改变他们, 不只是年轻人,
799	but starting at the young age, that people can change their gender once a year.	但从小开始,人们可以每年改变一次性别。
800	I'm sorry.	对不起
801	And this is ridiculous and very disturbing and irritating,	这是荒谬的,非常令人不安的,令人烦恼,
802	especially for young people, for teenagers.	特别是年轻人,青少年。
803	And we need to go back to a normal policy	我们需要回到正常的政策
804	and not having constructions like social genders	并且没有像社会性别这样的建筑
805	and not having biological genders.	和没有生物性别。
806	I think it is the wrong way and really distorts especially young people.	我认为这是错误的方式,并真正扭曲特别是年轻人。
807	I understand that.	这我知道
808	But just to be clear, you're confident that your party	不过要说清楚你确信你的派对
809	would respect the rights and freedoms of families like yours.	将尊重你这样的家庭的权利和自由。
810	Absolutely.	当然
811	You're watching an interview from The Economist.	你在看《经济学家》的采访
812	If you want to watch our other interviews,	如果你想看我们的其他采访,
813	including with Mark Carney and Dario Amadei,	包括马克·卡尼和达里奥·阿马迪
814	subscribe to The Economist by clicking the link above.	点击以上链接订阅《经济学家》。
815	Now back to the interview.	现在回到采访。
816	You describe yourself as a libertarian.	你形容自己是自由主义者
817	And I actually am pretty sure you are.	我其实很确定你是。
818	But there are in your party very clearly small, but clear, frankly, neo-Nazi elements.	但你们党里显然有很小,但很清楚,坦率地说, 新纳粹分子。
819	No.	没有
820	I mean, it's completely unfunded.	我的意思是,它是完全没有资金。
821	Twice found guilty and fined for using Nazi slogans.	两次被判有罪并因使用纳粹口号被罚款.
822	Just recently, these reports about four advisors to your leader in Saxon-Anhalt,	就在最近,这些报道有关四名顾问在萨克森 -安哈尔特的领袖,
823	they were part of the banned neo-Nazi youth movement.	他们是被禁止的新纳粹青年运动的一部分。
824	Are you denying that there are, you're saying there's nobody in the AFD	你否认有,你是说没有在AFD
825	with any proto-fascist tendency?	有法西斯倾向吗?
826	Oh my goodness.	天呐
827	This interview has been going very well.	这次采访进展顺利.
828	No, it's important.	不,这很重要。
829	Yes, yes.	对,对。
830	It's really important.	这很重要
831	But it's completely, these accusations are completely unfunded.	但是,这些指控完全没有资金。
832	Okay.	摆
833	Then categorically tell me that that is not the case.	那就明确告诉我,情况并非如此。
834	And if there were, you would throw them out?	如果有,你会扔出去吗?
835	Well, absolutely.	当然
836	This is not the case.	事实并非如此。
837	The accusations are unfunded.	这些指控没有资金。
838	So Björn Höcke, he has been found guilty and fined for using Nazi slogans.	Björn Höcke因使用纳粹口号被判有罪并罚款。
839	Everything for Germany is a Nazi slogan.	德国的一切都是纳粹的口号.
840	It's ridiculous.	太荒谬了
841	Okay.	摆
842	Germany first.	德国先
843	This is what he said.	这就是他说的。
844	Do you think it's a Nazi slogan?	你觉得那是纳粹的口号吗?
845	I don't think so.	亦不见.
846	And so you don't think there is anybody in, you know, the party in Sachsen-Anhalt,	所以,你不认为任何人在,你知道, 党在萨赫森 -安哈尔特,
847	in Thuringia who has any Nazi, proto-Nazi tendencies?	在图林根,谁有纳粹,原纳粹倾向?
848	The framing is very severe and we have nothing to do with that.	框架非常严谨,我们与它无关。
849	And why are you asking me this question?	你为什么要问我这个问题?
850	I'm asking you because it is honestly probably the single most important question	我问你,因为老实说,这可能是最重要的问题
851	that people ask about the AFD.	人们问到AFD。
852	They say the AFD is an extreme right party and they worry, understandably,	他们说AFD是一个极右翼政党他们担心,可以理解,
853	given Germany's history, that there are people in your party	从德国的历史来看你的党里有人
854	who have sort of echoes of the 1930s.	他们有某种回响的 1930年代。
855	I don't think, you know, my mother is German.	我不认为,你知道,我的母亲是德国人。
856	I grew up, spent part of my time here.	我长大了,在这里呆了一段时间
857	I am not at all surprised that people are really worried about this.	我一点也不惊讶人们真的担心这一点。
858	Well, we had that before, that the framing of far-right extremists is unfunded.	嗯,我们以前有过, 陷害极右极端分子是没有资金的。
859	I think that we stand for a commonsense policy that I laid out in this interview	我认为我们赞成我在这次采访中阐述的常识政策
860	and that the framing of the horrible time of the Third Reich,	而第三帝国的可怕时代,
861	because you've been mentioning this now several times,	因为你已经提到过很多次了
862	that the framing and putting the Alternative für Deutschland	设计并布置德国联邦联邦联邦
863	in a continuation of these horrible, terrible times of the Third Reich	继续着第三帝国的可怕和可怕的时代
864	it's just used against us to harm our reputation.	用来伤害我们的名誉
865	And nothing can be more untrue, to be honest.	说实话,没有比这更不真实的了
866	That's interesting.	这很有趣。
867	But do you agree that there are many people,	但你同意有很多人吗?
868	people who take part in demonstrations against you,	那些参加反对你示威的人
869	who worry about the extreme elements in your party?	谁担心你党里的极端因素?
870	And what could you do as you are continuing to grow in popularity?	你能做什么,因为你越来越受欢迎?
871	Do you think it's a priority to reassure those people	你觉得让这些人放心是优先事项吗?
872	that they have nothing to worry about?	他们没什么好担心的吗?
873	Well, you know, we don't have extremists in our party.	我们党里没有极端分子
874	We are not an extreme party.	我们不是一个极端的党。
875	It's an unserious framing to be very harmful to our reputation.	对我们的名声非常有害是个不严肃的陷害
876	It doesn't work anymore.	已无功用.
877	We reached, as you mentioned right at the beginning,	正如你一开始提到的那样,我们找到了
878	we reached over 30% on a federal level,	我们在联邦一级达到了30%以上,
879	putting the Chancellor's party at below 18% already,	已经把总理的党降到18%以下了
880	having a delta of 12 to 13% already.	已经拥有12%至13%的三角洲。
881	And the people, also the German voters, they don't believe this anymore.	人民,还有德国选民, 他们不再相信这一点。
882	I think you said last year that your goal is to get over 40%,	我想你去年说过你的目标是得到40%以上
883	which would be an impressive,	这将是令人印象深刻的,
884	but still not enough to govern by yourselves.	但还不足以自己管理
885	And right now, as you know, Germany has the firewall, the Brandmauer,	而现在,你知道,德国有防火墙, 勃朗莫尔,
886	no one will deal with you.	没有人会处理你。
887	Do you think, first of all, that that will go?	你觉得,首先,那会去吗?
888	And secondly, do you think you are prepared	第二,你觉得你准备好了吗?
889	to make some compromises to work with others in order to be in power?	为了当权而与他人合作?
890	You know, I think the Brandmauer, the firewall,	你知道,我认为勃朗莫尔,防火墙,
891	is very harmful for the Chancellor's party	对总理的党非常有害
892	that slipped below 20% now at 17%.	现在跌到20%以下 17%
893	You have to imagine the Chancellor's party.	你得想象一下总理的政党
894	And it's very harmful for them.	这对他们非常有害
895	And it's also very harmful for our country	这对我国也非常有害
896	because the voters keep voting for a coalition of CDU and AfD,	因为选民一直投票支持民主力量同盟和民主力量同盟,
897	或AFD现在和CDU,
898	because we are much stronger right now, we overtook the CDU.	因为我们现在更强壮, 我们超越了CDU。
899	And I think our country deserves it,	我认为我们的国家值得
900	to have common sense, good policies for our country.	对我国有常识,良好的政策.
901	And, yeah, having an undemocratic tool such as a firewall,	是的,有一个不民主的工具比如防火墙,
902	it manifests the hard left parties,	它显示艰难的左派,
903	like imposing very severe, as you can see here in Berlin,	就象在柏林那样,非常严厉
904	we may have a leftist government and making them stronger.	我们可能有一个左派政府让他们更强大
905	So therefore, the entire strategy of a firewall	因此,防火墙的整个策略
906	strengthens the leftist block parties	强化左翼挡板派对
907	and imposing such as high taxes and also Enteignungen.	并征收高额税和恩泰尼贡根。
908	And, yeah, let's see what's going to happen.	而且,是的,让我们看看会发生什么事。
909	But if it were to go, would you make compromises to work with others?	但是,如果它去, 你会做出妥协与他人合作?
910	Why should we?	为什么?
911	Because politics is often about compromise.	因为政治往往是为了妥协.
912	I think on our main points that I've laid out in our interview,	我想到我在采访中阐述的要点
913	there are no compromises to be made	没有妥协
914	because our country and our people, they deserve it.	因为我们的国家和人民是罪有应得的
915	And I think the CDU has to move first.	我觉得CDU必须先行动
916	And if the CDU doesn't move very quickly, they perish very soon.	如果CDU不迅速行动,它们很快就会消亡.
917	That is a very strong note on which to end.	这是一个结束的非常强烈的注意。
918	And it's vital.	这很重要
919	Thank you very much for joining me.	非常感谢你加入我
920	Thank you very much for having me.	谢谢你邀请我

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