大西洋月刊对谈：没有一个美国人是我的敌人 | 2026.10
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:01 | Our topic today is politics. | 我们今天的主题是政治。 |
| 0:04 | What role should politics play in your life? | 政治在你生活中应该发挥什么作用? |
| 0:06 | How much of your spiritual, emotional, and mental energy should you devote to politics? | 你的精神、情感和精神精力应该投入到政治上吗? |
| 0:10 | Now I am something of a political junkie. | 现在我是个政治瘾君子 |
| 0:14 | I grew up as a political correspondent and covering people and I can say there's nothing | 我作为一个政治记者长大 并覆盖人们 我可以说什么都没有 |
| 0:17 | more fun in journalism than going to a rally in Iowa or New Hampshire or anywhere people | 比去爱荷华州、新罕布什尔州或任何地方的集会更好玩 |
| 0:23 | are campaigning, talking with the folks, watching them scream, watching the passion. | 与人们交谈 看着他们尖叫 看着激情 |
| 0:28 | It's just Americana in all its glory, both good and bad. | 它只是美国人的荣耀,无论是好还是坏。 |
| 0:32 | So I really care about politics. | 所以我真的很关心政治。 |
| 0:34 | I really care about politicians. | 我真的很关心政客 |
展开字幕全文（784 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Our topic today is politics. | 我们今天的主题是政治。 |
| 2 | What role should politics play in your life? | 政治在你生活中应该发挥什么作用? |
| 3 | How much of your spiritual, emotional, and mental energy should you devote to politics? | 你的精神、情感和精神精力应该投入到政治上吗? |
| 4 | Now I am something of a political junkie. | 现在我是个政治瘾君子 |
| 5 | I grew up as a political correspondent and covering people and I can say there's nothing | 我作为一个政治记者长大 并覆盖人们 我可以说什么都没有 |
| 6 | more fun in journalism than going to a rally in Iowa or New Hampshire or anywhere people | 比去爱荷华州、新罕布什尔州或任何地方的集会更好玩 |
| 7 | are campaigning, talking with the folks, watching them scream, watching the passion. | 与人们交谈 看着他们尖叫 看着激情 |
| 8 | It's just Americana in all its glory, both good and bad. | 它只是美国人的荣耀,无论是好还是坏。 |
| 9 | So I really care about politics. | 所以我真的很关心政治。 |
| 10 | I really care about politicians. | 我真的很关心政客 |
| 11 | I admire them in general. | 我普遍佩服他们 |
| 12 | They're good people in a rotten circumstance. | 他们是坏人 |
| 13 | And yet I also feel that we've over-politicized our society. | 但我也觉得我们的社会已经过度政治化了。 |
| 14 | Everything is red or blue. | 一切都是红色或蓝色的。 |
| 15 | Where you live is red or blue. | 你住的地方是红的还是蓝的 |
| 16 | What car you drive is determined by red or blue. | 你开的什么车是由红色或蓝色决定的. |
| 17 | What TV shows you watch is determined by red or blue. | 你所看的电视节目是由红色或蓝色决定的. |
| 18 | Who you marry and befriend. | 你嫁给谁 成为朋友。 |
| 19 | How you think about the WNBA. | 你对WNBA的看法如何? |
| 20 | When you make politics your religion, you think you have a sense of belonging, but you | 当你使政治成为你的宗教,你认为 你有归属感,但你 |
| 21 | really don't have belonging. | 真的没有归属感 |
| 22 | You're not sitting with your community members. | 你没有和你的社区成员坐在一起 |
| 23 | You're just hating the same people. | 你只是讨厌同一个人 |
| 24 | And you have the illusion of righteous action. | 而你有正义行动的幻觉。 |
| 25 | You're doing something good for the country, but you're not feeding the poor or sitting | 你在为国家做好事 但你没有喂穷人或坐着 |
| 26 | with the widow. | 与遗孀. |
| 27 | You're just hating people on social media. | 你只是讨厌社交媒体的人 |
| 28 | And so it gives you the illusion of all the things that you get in a real community or | 所以它给你幻觉 所有的东西 你得到一个真正的社区,或 |
| 29 | a real faith or a real philosophy, but you just end up in a cultural war. | 真正的信仰或真正的哲学, 但你只是结束了一场文化战争。 |
| 30 | And so I'm trying to figure out, how do I care about politics without over-caring? | 所以我想弄清楚,我怎么关心政治而不过分照顾呢? |
| 31 | My guest today is Jeffrey Goldberg. | 今天的客人是杰弗里·戈德伯格 |
| 32 | You probably know him as the editor-in-chief of the Atlantic magazine. | 你可能知道他是"大西洋"杂志的主编 |
| 33 | As you watch or listen to this conversation, you will notice that Jeff and I know each | 当你看或听这个谈话, 你会注意到杰夫和我都知道 |
| 34 | other. | 其他费用。 |
| 35 | We've known each other for 25 years. | 相识二十五年. |
| 36 | And you'll see that we have, as all old friends do, we've developed a certain way of talking | 你会看到,我们已经, 像所有的老朋友一样, 我们发展了某种方式 说话 |
| 37 | to each other. | 彼此之间。 |
| 38 | We have a certain banter, which involves a lot of interruption. | 我们有一个小问题,这涉及很多中断。 |
| 39 | And so what you are about to witness is us at our most slow-paced, our most earnest, | 所以,你将要见证的是 我们最慢的速度, 我们最真诚, |
| 40 | our most serious. | 我们最认真的。 |
| 41 | So Jeff and I will be talking about what role should politics play in our life. | 杰夫和我将会谈论政治在我们生活中应该发挥什么作用。 |
| 42 | But in order to get there, I thought we'd compare notes about our careers, the politicians | 但为了到达那里,我想我们比较一下 我们的职业生涯,政治家们 |
| 43 | we've covered, what we've thought about them, what's been important, what's been unimportant. | 我们已经覆盖,我们的想法 关于他们,什么是重要,什么是不重要。 |
| 44 | I'm David Brooks, and this is The Permanent Questions. | 我是大卫·布鲁克斯,这是永久问题。 |
| 45 | Jeffrey Goldberg, welcome to The Permanent Questions. | 杰弗里·戈德伯格 欢迎来到"永久问题" |
| 46 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 47 | This must be- | 这一定是... |
| 48 | I'm very wary. | 我很谨慎。 |
| 49 | This must be a thrill for you. | 这对你来说一定很刺激 |
| 50 | You do edit a magazine, you've won some prizes, but this really is pretty much the pinnacle | 你编辑杂志,你赢得了一些奖项, 但这是几乎是顶峰 |
| 51 | of your career. | 你的事业。 |
| 52 | This is, well, you know, I applied to Yale and I got rejected. | 这是,嗯,你知道, 我申请了耶鲁,我被拒绝。 |
| 53 | I didn't even get waitlisted. | 我甚至没有被列入名单。 |
| 54 | They were just like, what, are you joking? | 他们只是喜欢,什么, 你在开玩笑吗? |
| 55 | So I consider this getting into Yale. | 所以我认为这是进入耶鲁大学。 |
| 56 | Basically, yeah. | 没错 |
| 57 | Aren't you a professor at Yale? | 你不是耶鲁大学的教授吗? |
| 58 | I'm a faculty member at Yale. | 我是耶鲁大学的教职员工 |
| 59 | What does that mean? | 这是什么意思? |
| 60 | What's the difference between professor and faculty member? | 教授和教职员有什么区别? |
| 61 | Professors know what they're talking about. | 教授知见. |
| 62 | Good one. | 不错 |
| 63 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 64 | So we're going to talk politics if we can get on track here, which is highly unlikely. | 所以我们要谈政治 如果我们能走上正轨,这是极不可能的。 |
| 65 | It's really deeply unlikely. | 这绝对不可能 |
| 66 | We've spent our lives covering this stuff. | 我们花了一辈子来掩盖这些 |
| 67 | Isn't that sad? | 是不是很伤心? |
| 68 | I know. | 我知道,我记得 |
| 69 | So I'm going to ask you, I want to get to your political origin story. | 所以,我要问你, 我想得到你的政治起源故事。 |
| 70 | My political origin story? | 我的政治出身故事? |
| 71 | Did you, like, when did you first have a brush with politics? | 你,像,你什么时候 第一次刷政治? |
| 72 | My first brush with politics was when, as a two-year-old, I urinated on Al Shanker's | 我第一次从政是 当一个两岁的孩子,我尿在Al Shanker的身上 |
| 73 | lap. | 脚。 |
| 74 | Do you remember Al Shanker? | 你还记得阿尔·尚克吗? |
| 75 | Of course. | 当然 |
| 76 | He was head of the American Federation for Teachers. | 曾任美国教师联合会会长. |
| 77 | Yeah, yeah. | 对 对 |
| 78 | And led the 1968 teacher strike. | 并领导1968年师大罢工. |
| 79 | My father was one of the leaders of the teacher strike. | 我父亲是教师罢工的领导者之一. |
| 80 | And the story is told that, you know, they were having a meeting in their Brooklyn apartment | 他们正在布鲁克林公寓开会 |
| 81 | and I was seated on Al Shanker's lap and I pissed all over him. | 我坐在Al Shanker的腿上 我尿在他身上 |
| 82 | Really? | 真的吗? |
| 83 | I grew up in that kind of household with posters on the wall, you know, with quotes. | 我在那种家庭里长大 墙上贴着海报 上面有引文 |
| 84 | To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards out of men. | 在他们应该抗议的时候沉默而犯罪 会使人变成懦夫 |
| 85 | That was by the bathroom. | 那是在浴室边 |
| 86 | I remember. | 我记得 |
| 87 | I had a similar upbringing, weirdly. | 我有一个类似的教养,奇怪的。 |
| 88 | My parents... | 我爸妈... |
| 89 | It's not that weird, actually. | 其实没那么奇怪 |
| 90 | ...volunteered for Ed Koch back when he was a liberal member of Congress. | ...当Ed Koch是自由派国会议员时 他自愿回来的 |
| 91 | He was a liberal reformer. | 他是一个自由主义改革者。 |
| 92 | He was fighting Carmine DiSappio and the Tammany, the remnants of the Tammany machine. | 他在与卡明·迪萨皮奥(Carmine DiSappio)和塔马尼人,塔马尼机的残余作战. |
| 93 | But then, I think also Watergate, I don't know, I'm slightly older than you, but when | 但是,我想,水门,我不知道, 我稍晚于你,但当 |
| 94 | I saw the Watergate hearings, I thought, that is so cool. | 我看到水门听证会了,我想,这太酷了。 |
| 95 | And I wanted to be... | 我想成为... |
| 96 | 我站在G. Gordon Liddy和水门帮的一边 | |
| 97 | I have recollections of it being on constantly in the house and just a general and deep loathing | 我还记得它经常在房子里 并且只是一个将军和深深的厌恶 |
| 98 | of Nixon in the cohort of my parents and their friends, which later on I realized was overdone. | 尼克松在我父母和朋友的组合中 之后我意识到这太夸张了 |
| 99 | 我不是,你知道, 我不像Lynyrd Skynyrd。 | |
| 100 | 我不在水门上担任Lynyrd Skynyrd的职位 | |
| 101 | But... | 不过... |
| 102 | 等等 Lynyrd Skynyrd是什么来着? | |
| 103 | Watergate does not bother me. | 水门不烦我。 |
| 104 | Does your conscience bother you? | 你的良心困扰你吗? |
| 105 | But I, you know, I think Nixon is much more interested in the full light of what we know | 但我,你知道,我认为尼克松 更感兴趣的是,我们所知道的一切 |
| 106 | now about the possibilities in American politics. | 关于美国政治的可能性 |
| 107 | I think Nixon is a very interesting character. | 我认为尼克松是一个非常有趣的人物. |
| 108 | But at the time, he was Satan incarnate, which is kind of funny in retrospect. | 但是在当时,他是撒旦化身,这在回顾中有点搞笑. |
| 109 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 110 | Now, did you have heroes? | 你有英雄吗? |
| 111 | I remember when I got a little older and I became more politically aware, like when I | 我记得当我长大了一点, 我在政治上变得更加清楚, 就像当我 |
| 112 | was in high school, as the kind of kid I was, I had a Hubert Humphrey poster on my wall. | 高中的时候,就像我这样的孩子 我墙上挂着Hubert Humphrey的海报 |
| 113 | It was not Joe Namath or Tom Siever. | 不是乔·纳马思或汤姆·西弗 |
| 114 | You're such a loser. | 你是个失败者。 |
| 115 | But it had the saying, some people talk change and others cause it. | 但有句谚语,有些人谈论改变,另一些人则引起改变。 |
| 116 | And I knew even then I wanted to be the kind of person who only talks change. | 那时我就知道我想成为那种只说改变的人。 |
| 117 | Some people just don't even open their mouths. | 有些人甚至不开口 |
| 118 | They just think about it. | 他们只是考虑一下 |
| 119 | Hubert Humphrey. | 休伯特·汉弗莱 |
| 120 | Yes. | 对 |
| 121 | I was like a mainstream Democrat. | 我就像主流民主党人 |
| 122 | 就像Scoop Jackson对我们家和Birch Bayh来说是大人物 | |
| 123 | Scoop Jackson became a hero of mine later in sort of college, but not then. | 斯科普·杰克逊后来在大学里成为了我的英雄,但后来没有. |
| 124 | We had, I think it was just very, very influenced by what was hanging on the walls of the house. | 我们,我想它只是非常,非常 受到挂在房子墙上的东西的影响。 |
| 125 | You know, there was a famous, very moody photo of JFK and RFK consulting with each other. | 你知道,有一个著名的,非常 情绪化的照片 肯尼迪和RFK咨询 彼此。 |
| 126 | So one difference between us, I've always had a political ideology. | 所以,我们之间的一个区别, 我总是有一个政治意识形态。 |
| 127 | Like I've always had a label that I've labeled myself. | 就像我一直有一个标签 我贴自己。 |
| 128 | Like when I was a kid, or in college even, I was a socialist. | 就像小时候,甚至大学的时候,我是个社会主义者。 |
| 129 | I had read John Reed. | 我读过约翰·里德 |
| 130 | Who wasn't though? | 谁不是? |
| 131 | You read John Reed? | 你读过约翰·里德的书吗 |
| 132 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 133 | I just watched the movie. | 我只是看电影。 |
| 134 | I just waited for the movie. | 我只是在等电影 |
| 135 | I waited for the movie. | 我等电影。 |
| 136 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 137 | There's a movie called Reds, Warren Beatty, Diane Keaton, which was one of my favorite | 我最喜欢的电影之一 |
| 138 | movies. | 电影 |
| 139 | I was like, yeah, revolution. | 我就像,是的,革命。 |
| 140 | And I loved the communist manifesto. | 我喜欢共产主义宣言 |
| 141 | 你怎么会有Hubert Humphrey的海报 还有共产党员 | |
| 142 | manifesto coexist? | 宣言共存? |
| 143 | Cause I swung left in college cause I read a book. | 因为我读了一本书就离开了 |
| 144 | I just hung out in the library. | 我只是挂出 在图书馆。 |
| 145 | I didn't go to classes. | 我没有去上课。 |
| 146 | I just hung out. | 我只是闲逛。 |
| 147 | And I read a magazine called The New Masses, which is a communist magazine from the 1920s | 我读了一本叫"新弥撒"的杂志 这是一本1920年代的共产主义杂志 |
| 148 | and 30s. | 还有30多岁 |
| 149 | And, A, I became in love with magazines. | 而且,A,我爱上了杂志。 |
| 150 | And there was a historian named Richard Pels who basically argued that all of human history | 有个历史学家叫理查德·佩尔斯 他基本上认为所有人类历史 |
| 151 | is controlled by the New Republic. | 由新共和国控制 |
| 152 | He covered American history as if it was the New Republic. | 他把美国的历史说成是新共和国 |
| 153 | So it gave me the conviction, which I have to this day, that ideas matter more than anything | 因此,它给了我一种信念,而我至今必须相信,思想比一切更重要 |
| 154 | in politics and that small magazines in particular drive the intellectual debate. | 特别是小杂志 推动知识界的辩论 |
| 155 | It's funny. | 这很有趣。 |
| 156 | I read, I read The Old Masses, which is a pro-Cossack magazine at the same time. | 我读过,我读过"旧弥撒",它同时是一本亲哥萨克的杂志. |
| 157 | Lessons on how to chase down Jews. | 如何追捕犹太人的教训. |
| 158 | I'm a reporter. | 我是记者 |
| 159 | I'm not like you. | 我和你不一样 |
| 160 | I didn't read The New Masses. | 我没看新弥撒 |
| 161 | Although I did go to the library and read a lot of magazines. | 虽然我去图书馆读了很多杂志 |
| 162 | I read, it's funny, New Republic definitely, I wasn't really a New Yorker guy or an Atlantic | 我读了,这很有趣, 新共和国绝对, 我不是真的一个纽约人或大西洋人 |
| 163 | guy. | 这家伙。 |
| 164 | I'm more Atlantic in high school than a New Yorker. | 我高中时的大西洋比纽约人还多 |
| 165 | But I was definitely, when I started reading The New Republic, and I guess this was like | 但我绝对是, 当我开始读 新共和国, 我想这是像 |
| 166 | the Kinsley era, so college after college or whatever, I was like, I really had this | 金斯利时代,大学毕业后,我真的有这个 |
| 167 | kind of feeling. | 那种感觉。 |
| 168 | Who are these people? | 这些人是谁? |
| 169 | Like, how do they know so much? | 他们怎么知道这么多? |
| 170 | Why does the, why do these words shine off the page? | 为什么,为什么这些词 闪耀出页面? |
| 171 | It was really- | 这真是... |
| 172 | Was it my writing? | 是我写的吗? |
| 173 | Caused this a lot? | 经常这样? |
| 174 | I didn't remember your pieces personally, but I'm sure someone read them. | 我个人不记得你的作品 但我肯定有人读过 |
| 175 | That wasn't me. | 这不是我。 |
| 176 | You wrote for The New Republic in that period? | 你在那个时期为新共和国写过书? |
| 177 | Occasionally. | 偶尔 |
| 178 | I was more of a National Review guy. | 我更像是国家评论员 |
| 179 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 180 | I read the National Review just because I just went for the, this is sort of the way | 我读了国家评论 只是因为我去了, 这是某种方式 |
| 181 | I am, I guess, of why I fell into magazines. | 我想,我倒在杂志上的原因 |
| 182 | I would privilege in my mind the good writing over almost anything. | 我将有幸在脑海中写得非常好, 几乎任何东西。 |
| 183 | It's why George Will's my favorite columns. | 这就是为什么乔治威尔是我最喜欢的专栏。 |
| 184 | I don't agree with him on everything, but the man can, I mean, Next to You, my favorite. | 我不同意他的意见,但是他可以,我最喜欢的是你 |
| 185 | You're not a columnist anyway. | 反正你也不是专栏作家 |
| 186 | You're more of a video personality. | 你更是一个视频人格。 |
| 187 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 188 | I'm a talk show host. | 我是脱口秀主持人 |
| 189 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 190 | I'm a game show. | 我是一个游戏节目。 |
| 191 | I'm Bob Barker. | 我是鲍勃巴克。 |
| 192 | Phil Donahue. | 菲尔·多纳休. |
| 193 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 194 | You're not going to ask me about my feelings in this- | 你不会问我的感受在这... |
| 195 | No, don't worry. | 不,不用担心。 |
| 196 | Session. | 届会。 |
| 197 | I know. | 我知道,我记得 |
| 198 | Because I'm not- | 因为我不是... |
| 199 | We are. | 我们是。 |
| 200 | I'm going to your intellectual life. | 我要进入你的智力生活 |
| 201 | That void is big enough. | 这个空虚已经足够大了 |
| 202 | Yeah, it is. | 是的,这是。 |
| 203 | So I was, I've written about this. | 所以我就写了这个 |
| 204 | It's no secret. | 无秘密. |
| 205 | I was a self-identified socialist Zionist at 15. | 我15岁时就是一个自认身份的社会主义犹太复国主义者. |
| 206 | This is true. | 这是真的。 |
| 207 | With a group of friends, we once marched in a, like St. Mark's Place, in the village. | 和一群朋友,我们曾经在村里的圣马克广场游行。 |
| 208 | We once were at a rally carrying the banner, Socialist Zionists for Animal Rights. | 我们曾经在集会上 举着旗帜, 社会主义犹太复国主义者争取动物权利。 |
| 209 | Huge constituency. | 庞大的选区。 |
| 210 | Now, did you ever have a book that, like something or an event that shifted your political view? | 你有一本书吗? 比如改变你政治观点的事件? |
| 211 | Animal Liberation by Peter Singer. | 彼得·辛格的动物解放组织. |
| 212 | No, I'm serious. | 不,我是认真的。 |
| 213 | Is that true? | 是吗? |
| 214 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 215 | I became a vegetarian out of that until I realized that I really liked hamburgers too | 我从这里开始吃素 直到我意识到我也很喜欢汉堡 |
| 216 | much. | 非常喜欢 |
| 217 | Whatever. | 随便吧 |
| 218 | But no, I mean, I read deeply in socialist theory and Zionist theory, and that's why, | 但是,不,我的意思是,我读 深刻的社会主义理论和犹太复国主义理论, 这就是为什么, |
| 219 | and I did. | 我确实这么做了 |
| 220 | I mean, I wound up, there was a kind of almost Bolshevik inevitability to my early path. | 我的意思是,我结束了, 有一种几乎布尔什维克 不可避免的 我早期的道路。 |
| 221 | I ended up living on a kibbutz that was still organized like a kibbutz in the kind of collectivized | 我最后住在一个集体农场里 仍然像集体农场一样 |
| 222 | sense, and then, you know, then I realized that socialism is ridiculous. | 然后,你知道, 然后我意识到 社会主义是荒谬的。 |
| 223 | For what reason? | 为什么? |
| 224 | Irving Kristol went to the army and decided if we became socialist, the people he was | 欧文·克里斯托尔去参军 决定如果我们成为社会主义者 |
| 225 | serving with would turn into a racket. | 随身侍奉会变成一片混乱 |
| 226 | So he said, oh, it can't be for socialism. | 所以他说,哦,这不能用于社会主义. |
| 227 | Why did I, it just seemed to go against, I mean, I'm making a very broad statement here, | 为什么我,它只是 似乎与,我的意思是, 我在这里做了一个非常广泛的声明, |
| 228 | but it just seemed to go against human nature. | 但它似乎违背了人性。 |
| 229 | People like things. | 人们喜欢的东西。 |
| 230 | They like to acquire things. | 他们喜欢买东西 |
| 231 | They like to acquire status and like, you can tell them that's wrong. | 他们喜欢获得地位 你可以告诉他们这是错的 |
| 232 | Don't be like that. | 别那样 |
| 233 | But I'm also like that. | 但我也一样 |
| 234 | I like to have acquisitions. | 我喜欢有收购。 |
| 235 | I like to collect things. | 我喜欢收集东西。 |
| 236 | I like the material world also, and I like to see people being rewarded for working harder | 我也喜欢物质世界 我喜欢看到人们因为努力工作而得到奖励 |
| 237 | than other people, and I believe in equality, but I don't believe in equity in the sense | 而不是其他人 我相信平等 但我不相信公平的意义 |
| 238 | that I don't think that people are born the same level of skill. | 我觉得人不是天生的一样技能 |
| 239 | And I don't want to, and again, maybe I'm straying too far away from the point of this. | 我不想, 再说一遍, 也许我偏离了这一点。 |
| 240 | What is the point of this session? | 本届会议有什么意义? |
| 241 | The role politics plays in your life, but we're starting out with your, with the ideas | 政治在你生活中扮演的角色 但我们要从你开始,从思想开始 |
| 242 | of politics. | 对政治的思考 |
| 243 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 244 | No, I just, I just, I just, this seems something unnatural about socialism, like this overwhelming | 不,我只是,我只是,我只是, 这似乎有些不正常 关于社会主义, 像这个压倒性 |
| 245 | desire. | 欲望 爱 |
| 246 | It seemed resentment based a little bit too much for me, you know, and I, I am not a, | 这似乎基于 一点点的怨恨对我来说, 你知道,我,我不是, |
| 247 | there should be no such thing as a billionaire. | 不应有亿万富翁. |
| 248 | I'm not in that camp. | 我不是在营地。 |
| 249 | I'm in the camp that there should be a lot of millionaires, you know, and I don't want | 我在营地 应该有很多百万富翁 你知道,我不想 |
| 250 | to cap anybody's success. | 盖住任何人的成功。 |
| 251 | I want to, I would bring the floor up. | 我想,我会把地板升起来。 |
| 252 | I don't think that makes me a socialist or a democratic socialist. | 我不认为那会让我成为一个社会主义或民主社会主义者. |
| 253 | I think this makes me, you know, common sense, you know, non-cruel believer in some kind | 我觉得这让我,你知道,常识, 你知道,非残忍的信仰者某种 |
| 254 | of meritocratic possibility. | 才华横溢的可能性 |
| 255 | I had, I, it's somewhat similar. | 我有,我,它有点相似。 |
| 256 | I first, I read Edmund Burke in college and that was a shock. | 我先在大学读过埃德蒙·伯克的书,很震惊 |
| 257 | And he just said, the world's really complicated. | 他刚刚说,世界真的很复杂。 |
| 258 | If you think you socialists can plan reality, good luck with that. | 如果你认为你们社会主义者可以规划现实,那就祝你好运. |
| 259 | Socialism doesn't survive first contact with humans and all of their ridiculous complexity. | 社会主义无法与人类和他们所有荒谬的复杂性进行第一次接触而幸存. |
| 260 | Right. | 对 |
| 261 | And then I also a similar, and a lot of my heroes became the neoconservatives like Irving | 之后我也是一样 很多英雄成为了新保守主义者 |
| 262 | Kristol and Gertrude Himmelfarb and they were, they were lefties who grew up in Brooklyn, | 克里斯托尔和格特鲁德·希梅尔法尔布 他们都是在布鲁克林长大的左撇子 |
| 263 | but they also grew up immigrant kids. | 但他们也长大了 移民的孩子。 |
| 264 | And they looked at, at their parents and how they had made it in America. | 他们看看,他们的父母, 以及他们是如何在美国做的。 |
| 265 | And it was hard work. | 工作很艰苦 |
| 266 | It was bourgeois values. | 这是资产阶级的价值观。 |
| 267 | It was hard work, education. | 这是艰苦的工作,教育。 |
| 268 | And they looked at the hippies and they think, what are you guys doing? | 他们看着嬉皮士 想,你们在干什么? |
| 269 | And so destroying because they could either make or destroy. | 摧毁是因为他们可以制造或摧毁。 |
| 270 | And so they were in the destruction phase. | 所以他们处于毁灭阶段。 |
| 271 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 272 | Now we both, early in our careers, you weigh more than me, served, reported from abroad. | 现在,我们两个,在我们职业生涯的早期, 你比我重,服务, 来自国外的报道。 |
| 273 | Like I was abroad in the nineties, basically the first six years of the nineties. | 就像九十年代我在国外一样, 基本上是九十年代的前六年。 |
| 274 | And you count Belgium as abroad, don't you? | 你把比利时算在国外,不是吗? |
| 275 | Well, I was covering Soviet Union. | 嗯,我覆盖苏联。 |
| 276 | That's abroad. | 这是国外。 |
| 277 | I was covering South Africa. | 我在报道南非 |
| 278 | That's abroad. | 这是国外。 |
| 279 | I was, and I was covering the Middle East. | 我是,我覆盖中东。 |
| 280 | Yeah, that's true. | 没错 |
| 281 | These are broad places. | 这些是广阔的地方。 |
| 282 | Those are abroad. | 这些都是国外。 |
| 283 | As far as I know. | 据我所知,我们是... |
| 284 | And I wasn't in Greenland, like my parts of America. | 我并不在格陵兰,就像我在美国的地方一样。 |
| 285 | Brussels is not, I mean. | 我的意思是,布鲁塞尔不是。 |
| 286 | Okay, Mr. | 好吧,先生,我说 |
| 287 | Obscure Foreign Correspondent. | 淫秽外宾. |
| 288 | No, I'm just saying like, all right, you know, it's a direct flight. | 不,我只是说,好吧,你知道, 这是一个直接的飞行。 |
| 289 | Anything with a direct flight, you know, it's like, all right, that's fine. | 任何直接飞行的东西,你知道, 它就像,好吧,没关系。 |
| 290 | And a wide selection of cheese. | 及广选乳酪. |
| 291 | The daring adventures with waffles, that's what I had in Brussels. | 大胆的冒险 与华夫饼, 这就是我在布鲁塞尔。 |
| 292 | Did you have your worldview shaped by events, as you call them, abroad, where there's no | 你有你的世界观 由事件塑造, 正如你所说的,在国外,没有 |
| 293 | direct flights? | 直飞? |
| 294 | So, I mean, the first thing I think of is coming home from Pakistan, I spent like, like | 所以,我的意思是,我首先想到的 是回家 从巴基斯坦,我花了喜欢,喜欢 |
| 295 | part of the late 90s, early 2000 up to 9 11, going in and out of Pakistan and Afghanistan. | 90年代后期的一部分,2000年初至9月11日,进出巴基斯坦和阿富汗。 |
| 296 | And I just, I think I've ever really articulated this before, but part of my part of my belief | 我只是,我想我曾经真的 阐明这一点, 但我的一部分我的信仰 |
| 297 | is that America is better than any other place. | 美国比其他任何地方都好 |
| 298 | I'm American. | 我是美国人。 |
| 299 | I love America. | 我爱美国。 |
| 300 | I recognize all the flaws, especially right now, but I'm American. | 我承认所有的缺陷,特别是现在, 但我是美国人。 |
| 301 | And another observation I would make, these all kind of marry up. | 我还想说, 这些都是结婚。 |
| 302 | Another observation I would make that there's too many journalists in America who, or commentators | 我还想说,美国有太多记者 或评论家 |
| 303 | or whatever you want to call them, who see America as the locus of evil in the world | 或任何你想叫他们的人, 他们把美国视为世界上邪恶的地方 |
| 304 | and that everything that happens in the world that's bad is somehow caused directly or indirectly | 世界上发生的坏事 都直接或间接造成 |
| 305 | by the United States. | 美国。 |
| 306 | And I just, I don't buy that. | 我只是,我不买。 |
| 307 | Does that send me down a more conservative pathway in one superficial sense? | 这是否使我从表面角度 走上了更保守的道路? |
| 308 | But I think that the broadening experience of seeing how tens of millions of people live | 但我认为,看到数千万人生活的 日益扩大的经验 |
| 309 | in realizing that we built something pretty good for ourselves gave me some perspective | 在意识到我们为自己造了一件相当好的东西 给了我一些视角 |
| 310 | and some appreciation that sometimes, let's say, people who come out of the Ivy League | 有时候,比如说,常春藤联盟的人 |
| 311 | don't really have. | 并没有真正有。 |
| 312 | They think that America is the locus of all bad in the world and I have no patience for | 他们认为美国是 世界上所有坏事的发生地点 而我没有耐心 |
| 313 | that anymore. | 这已经。 |
| 314 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 315 | Now you had a much more- | 现在,你有一个更多的 - |
| 316 | I'm not saying things are going so great, by the way. | 顺便说一句,我不是说事情进展如此顺利 |
| 317 | I just want to establish that, just to show that we've spent our lives on the importance | 我只是想证明这一点, 只是为了表明我们已经花了我们的生活 对于重要性 |
| 318 | of politics, both foreign and domestic, and I certainly, I really care about politics. | 无论是国外还是国内的政治 我当然关心政治 |
| 319 | I think that my favorite person to ever cover was John McCain. | 我觉得我最爱的人就是约翰・麦凯恩 |
| 320 | Yeah, probably me too, just to be around him. | 是啊,也许我也一样, 只是在他身边。 |
| 321 | He was just so much fun. | 他只是太有趣了,我爱他 |
| 322 | People forget that he was like, he took me to casinos to teach me how to play craps. | 人们忘了他的样子, 他带我去赌场 教我如何玩废话。 |
| 323 | He once introduced me to a group of Hungarian right-wingers as, this is Jeff Goldberg, he's | 他曾经把我介绍给一群匈牙利右翼人士, 因为,这是杰夫·戈德伯格,他是 |
| 324 | a communist reporter. | 一个共产党记者。 |
| 325 | Whatever happens, happens. | 无论发生什么,都会发生。 |
| 326 | I was like, Jesus, man, will you stop? | 我说,耶稣,伙计,你会停下来吗? |
| 327 | I say all this because we spent a lot of our life in politics and obviously, politics matters | 我这样说是因为我们花了我们很多时间去参政 显然政治很重要 |
| 328 | a lot, both foreign and domestic. | 很多,无论是国外还是国内。 |
| 329 | Or does it? | 是吗? |
| 330 | Well, now I have to say, I'm now of a mood like we're over-politicized as a country. | 好吧,现在我不得不说,我现在的情绪 像我们过度政治化作为一个国家。 |
| 331 | Totally. | 当然 |
| 332 | I have this line, we're over-politicized and under-moralized. | 我有这句台词,我们太过政治化和道德低下. |
| 333 | Too much time paying attention to everything that's on whatever cable TV is covering that | 太多时间关注所有有线电视上的报道 |
| 334 | particular hour and less about the things that really matter. | 对于真正重要的东西来说 时间越来越短 |
| 335 | Well, when you say we, what do you mean we? | 你说我们是什么意思? |
| 336 | We as a national society. | 我们是一个民族社会。 |
| 337 | I don't know about that. | 我不知道这一点。 |
| 338 | If you add up all the people who watch cable news, it adds up to a very, very small percentage | 如果你把所有看有线新闻的人加起来, 就等于一个很小的百分比 |
| 339 | of the American population. | 美国人口。 |
| 340 | I think most people aren't, and most people are probably healthier than the people who | 我认为大多数人不是, 大多数人可能比那些 |
| 341 | do pay inordinate attention to politics or are involved in politics, but yes, I mean, | 对政治的过度关注或参与政治,但 是的,我的意思是, |
| 342 | is the reality the general perception of reality or is the reality something deeper? | 现实是对现实的普遍认识还是现实更深? |
| 343 | I do think that most people in America don't pay day-to-day attention to it. | 我确实认为,美国大多数人对它没有日常的关注. |
| 344 | We just around people who do. | 我们只是周围的人谁做。 |
| 345 | I mean, in my own, if you're asking like sort of in my own life, I've come to realize, | 我的意思是,在我的自己, 如果你问 像那种在我的自己生活, 我逐渐意识到, |
| 346 | I mean, it's, here's where everybody quotes the late Breitbart, you know, we all understand | 我的意思是,这是,这里每个人都引用 晚布莱特巴特,你知道,我们都明白 |
| 347 | how that politics is downstream from culture, but I would say that, especially now, culture | 但是我要说,特别是现在,文化 |
| 348 | is downstream from psychiatry and theology and tribalism and anxiety and resentment and | 下游与精神病学、神学、部落主义、焦虑和怨恨 |
| 349 | a whole basket of, you know, sometimes inchoate human impulses and emotions that are buried | 整个篮子,你知道,有时, 浸透人类的冲动和情绪 埋藏 |
| 350 | deep in our lizard brains, you know what I mean? | 深入我们的蜥蜴大脑,你知道我的意思吗? |
| 351 | And so things flow from, and so like to go upstream, you know, you got to be a salmon | 所以事情从, 所以喜欢去上游, 你知道,你必须是一个鲑鱼 |
| 352 | now in politics, if you're writing about politics and go as far upstream as you can go, and | 现在从政,如果你在写 政治,并去越上游,你可以去, |
| 353 | that's where you're going to find out some possibly meaningful truths. | 在那里你会发现一些 可能有意义的真相。 |
| 354 | Yeah, though I would say that, you know, if you start, and I agree with Breitbart though, | 是的,虽然我会说,你知道, 如果你开始, 我同意布雷特巴特, |
| 355 | I should say Gramsci got there first, and a lot of people wrote about culture first. | 我应该说格拉姆西先到的, 很多人先写文化。 |
| 356 | Your old socialist roots coming out. | 你的社会主义老根子出来了 |
| 357 | But my theory is that, you know, people are emotionally and spiritually quite disturbed | 但我的理论是,你知道, 人们的情感和精神 相当的不安 |
| 358 | right now, and they don't go to church or whatever, and so they, politics has become | 现在,他们不 去教堂或什么的, 所以,他们,政治已经变成 |
| 359 | the religion for a lot of people. | 宗教为很多人服务。 |
| 360 | And that's why I stopped a long time ago falling in love with politicians, falling in love | 所以我很久之前就停止了 爱上政客,坠入爱河 |
| 361 | with anything human, you know, any movement or anything that's human created is going | 人类的一切,你知道的,任何运动 或人类创造的一切 |
| 362 | to lead to disappointment. | 导致失望。 |
| 363 | I don't mean falling in love with a human, and you know my wife, and she's perfect. | 我不是说爱上一个人 你认识我的妻子 她很完美 |
| 364 | She's now throwing her shoes at you metaphorically. | 她现在用比喻方式向你扔鞋子 |
| 365 | Yeah, well, I don't know if she listens to your podcast. | 我不知道她有没有听你播客的话 |
| 366 | She knows you. | 她认识你 |
| 367 | I'll send her this part. | 我会送她这部分。 |
| 368 | She can just call you if she has to find out what you're thinking at any given moment. | 她可以打电话给你 如果她要知道你在任何时刻在想什么 |
| 369 | But I mean, you know, there are humans I love, but humans involved in public life where you | 但是,我的意思是,你知道, 有人类我爱, 但人类参与 公共生活,在那里你 |
| 370 | fall in love with, that's bad. | 爱上,这是不好的。 |
| 371 | I don't know if I agree with that. | 我不知道我是否同意这一点。 |
| 372 | I mean, I was deep into McCain and Obama. | 我的意思是,我深入麦凯恩和奥巴马。 |
| 373 | Is there any politician who hasn't disappointed you in some way in your 80 years in politics? | 在你参政的80年里,有没有政治家没有以某种方式让你失望? |
| 374 | Well, all people except my kids and my wife have disappointed me, except my boss has never | 除了我的孩子和我妻子之外,所有人都让我失望 除了我的老板从来没有 |
| 375 | disappointed me. | 让我很失望 |
| 376 | No, no, of course. | 不,不,当然。 |
| 377 | Your new boss, not the old boss. | 你的新老板 不是旧老板 |
| 378 | No, exactly. | 不,没错。 |
| 379 | The old bosses were terrible. | 那些老老板很厉害 |
| 380 | But I would still say I've still got enthusiastic about various campaigns. | 但我还是会说,我仍然对各种运动充满热情。 |
| 381 | It really mattered to me at Obama. | 我对奥巴马来说很重要 |
| 382 | McCain, the 2000 election was really tough on me because I admire these two guys the | 麦凯恩,2000年的大选对我非常严厉 因为我钦佩这两个家伙 |
| 383 | most. | 大多数 |
| 384 | I wish they could have run the country together. | 我希望他们能一起管理这个国家 |
| 385 | If you melded McCain's, some of his instincts and impulses and Obama's thoughtfulness and | 如果你把麦凯恩的, 他的一些直觉和冲动 和奥巴马的思维和 |
| 386 | analytical heft, you would have had a really interesting president. | 从分析角度讲,你会有一个非常有趣的总统。 |
| 387 | That's a good deal. | 善财交易. |
| 388 | You know? | 你知道吗? |
| 389 | They would have killed each other. | 他们会互相残杀 |
| 390 | No, I mean, in the one person, if you could just sort of combine that. | 不,我的意思是,在一个人, 如果你可以只是 某种结合。 |
| 391 | So I still want to believe in politics, and I still do believe in it, and I think most | 所以我还是想相信政治, 我仍然相信它,我认为大多数 |
| 392 | politicians are in it for the right reasons. | 政客们之所以参与其中,是有正当理由的。 |
| 393 | The problem comes to me when people say they wouldn't marry somebody from the other party, | 当人们说他们不会嫁给对方的人时 问题就出现了 |
| 394 | and that's a very high percentage right now. | 现在这个比例非常高 |
| 395 | Well, this is why religion is important. | 这就是为什么宗教很重要。 |
| 396 | One of the many reasons religion is important is it says humans are limited and humans are | 宗教之所以重要的原因之一是 说人类是有限的 人类是 |
| 397 | broken and humans are deeply imperfect, and any system of thought that demands some level | 任何需要某种程度的思想体系 |
| 398 | of humility. | 谦逊。 |
| 399 | This is what I can't stand about politics, is the certainty of everybody, because everybody | 我无法忍受的是政治, 每个人的确定性,因为每个人 |
| 400 | needs religion. | 需要的宗教。 |
| 401 | Human beings need religion. | 人类需要宗教。 |
| 402 | Some people just make politics their religion, some people make all kinds of things their | 有些人把政治变成他们的宗教 有些人把各种各样的事情变成他们的宗教 |
| 403 | belief system. | 信仰系统。 |
| 404 | In my argument, it gives you the simulation religion without the actual religion. | 在我的论点中,它给了你模拟宗教 没有真正的宗教。 |
| 405 | So it gives you a simulation that you belong to a group, but you're not really in a community. | 所以它给了你一个模拟,你属于一个团体, 但你不是真的在一个社区。 |
| 406 | You're just hating the same people. | 你只是讨厌同一个人 |
| 407 | Well, you're not in a community, and you're accepting only half of what religion has to | 你不在社区里 你只接受一半的宗教 |
| 408 | offer you. | 提供给你。 |
| 409 | You engage in judgment, but you don't really engage in mercy, right? | 你做判断, 但你并不真正参与仁慈,对不对? |
| 410 | I mean, that's what our politics is like. | 我们的政治就是这样的 |
| 411 | It's judgment without mercy. | 即是判无慈悲. |
| 412 | It matters to me so little now what a person's positions are on a set of issues compared | 对我来说,现在不重要 一个人的立场 对于一组问题比较 |
| 413 | to their character and to their core beliefs about themselves, their family, their community, | 以及他们对自己、家人、社区的核心信念, |
| 414 | their country, the world system that we have. | 我们拥有的世界体系 |
| 415 | I don't care that much if someone believes X about Y Bill. | 如果有人相信X关于Y比尔的话,我不在乎那么多 |
| 416 | This is why I think being over politicized is not just a small group of people. | 这就是为什么我认为过度政治化不仅仅是一小撮人。 |
| 417 | And so for example, I think what you just expressed, another way to say it is, when | 比如说,我认为你刚才表达的 另一种说法是: |
| 418 | you're looking at a candidate, the first is, are they a good person? | 你正在寻找一个候选人, 首先,他们是好人吗? |
| 419 | Are they a trustworthy human being? | 他们是值得信赖的人吗? |
| 420 | And the second lens is- | 第二个镜头是... |
| 421 | Are they mentally stable? | 他们的精神稳定吗? |
| 422 | Yeah, that would be nice. | 是啊,这将是很好的。 |
| 423 | And I like to look at someone who's committed to his or her family. | 我喜欢看一个人 谁致力于他或她的家庭。 |
| 424 | I do. | 当然 |
| 425 | And also, do they have good judgment? | 他们有判断力吗? |
| 426 | A lot of politics is just like looking at the world, seeing what matters here. | 很多政治就像看世界,看这里什么才是重要的. |
| 427 | But the third lens should be, do they agree with me? | 但第三个镜头应该是 他们同意我吗? |
| 428 | Are they on my team? | 他们是我的团队吗? |
| 429 | But if you look at, say, the Texas primary race, where Ken Paxton beat John Cornyn, I | 但是如果你看,比如说,德克萨斯州的初选, 肯・帕克斯顿击败约翰・科宁,我 |
| 430 | don't think people are applying the character frame or the judgment frame. | 别以为人们在应用角色框架或判断框架. |
| 431 | No, I don't think people do apply the character frame. | 不,我不认为人们 应用字符框。 |
| 432 | And then for the Democrats, Graham Plattner up in Maine, even after a lot of his scandals | 而对于民主党,格雷厄姆・普拉特纳 在缅因州, 即使他的很多丑闻 |
| 433 | got out, a lot of Democrats were willing to say, because he's on the team. | 很多民主党人愿意说 因为他是球队的 |
| 434 | We know, I mean, this is a cliche already, but partisanship does make you stupid. | 我们知道,我的意思是,这已经是一个陈词滥调, 但党派主义确实让你愚蠢。 |
| 435 | Partisanship, excessive partisanship, especially, turns you into a robot. | 党,过度的党派主义,尤其是把你变成机器人. |
| 436 | Or put it this way, it turns you tribal. | 这么说你就会变成部落了 |
| 437 | And what's amusing, especially on the left, is like a leftist who believes in universal | 有趣的是,特别是在左边, 就像一个左派,他相信普世主义 |
| 438 | principles and universalism get pretty tribal as well. | 原则与普世主义也变得相当部落化。 |
| 439 | Tribalism makes you kind of dumb. | 部落主义让你有点愚蠢。 |
| 440 | Now, have you lost friends over Trump? | 你为川普失去了朋友吗? |
| 441 | Have I lost friends over Trump? | 我是不是因为特朗普失去了朋友? |
| 442 | You're assuming that I have friends and not a series of shifting alliances. | 你假设我有朋友 而不是一系列变化中的联盟 |
| 443 | Well, we're momentarily friends. | 我们只是朋友 |
| 444 | Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. | 释曰. |
| 445 | Well, again, shifting alliances, like I said. | 嗯,再次,改变联盟,就像我说的。 |
| 446 | Have I lost friends over Trump? | 我是不是因为特朗普失去了朋友? |
| 447 | No, I mean, I don't, I have more Republican friends than the average | 不,我的意思是,我没有, 我有更多的共和党朋友 比平均 |
| 448 | Washington-based, quote unquote, mainstream journalist. | 以华盛顿为基地,引用未引文,主流记者. |
| 449 | But my Republican friends are disproportionately anti-Trumpers | 但我的共和党朋友是反特朗普的 |
| 450 | who become so committed to it. | 他们如此执着 |
| 451 | It's like, all right already with Trump. | 这就像,所有的权利已经与特朗普。 |
| 452 | You know what I mean? | 你知道我的意思吗? |
| 453 | I mean, it's a funny, a little insight into the possible insight into the Atlantic. | 我的意思是,这是一个有趣的, 一点点的洞察 关于可能的洞察 关于大西洋。 |
| 454 | The Atlantic is meant to be the magazine of the American idea. | 大西洋本意是美国思想的杂志. |
| 455 | The American idea posits that you have a strong liberal group and a strong | 美国的想法认为你有一个强大的自由主义团体和一个强大的 |
| 456 | conservative group battling it out in public for primacy of their ideas. | 保守集团为了他们思想的至高无上而公开与之斗争。 |
| 457 | And you have to convince the public that your ideas are right. | 你必须说服公众 你的想法是正确的。 |
| 458 | So I think it's very important to have conservatives and liberals writing | 所以我认为让保守派和自由派写作是非常重要的 |
| 459 | and arguing in the pages of the Atlantic. | 在大西洋的页面上争论 |
| 460 | So I try to get as many conservatives as we can. | 所以我想尽可能多找一些保守派 |
| 461 | And unfortunately, all they want to do is write about Trump sometimes. | 不幸的是,他们想做的只是有时写特朗普. |
| 462 | And it's like every so often after a minor conservative writer, can you just | 就像每一次 之后一个小保守的作家, 你能只是 |
| 463 | come out against abortion randomly or something to remind our readers | 随意出来反对堕胎 或提醒读者 |
| 464 | that you have positions? | 你有位置吗? |
| 465 | I understand. | 我理解,我懂你说什么 |
| 466 | I understand how personal it is for them. | 我了解他们有多私人 |
| 467 | And I understand what it must be like to see the party that they believed in | 我理解看到他们相信的派对是什么感觉 |
| 468 | become a cult of personality around an individual rather than a place for the | 成为个人的人格崇拜,而不是 |
| 469 | ventilation of conservative ideas. | 保守思想的通风. |
| 470 | Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent, but so that's a long way of saying, a long | 总之,我要去一个切合, 但这是很长的路要走, |
| 471 | I can't say I lost friends over that. | 我不能说我失去了朋友。 |
| 472 | Yeah, I don't believe in losing friends over politics. | 对,我不相信会因为政治而失去朋友 |
| 473 | I just think it's a misalignment. | 我只是觉得这是错的 |
| 474 | Well, it doesn't really matter what you believe. | 你相信什么并不重要 |
| 475 | It matters what your friends believe. | 你的朋友相信的都很重要 |
| 476 | Yeah, like I have, I grew up in the conservative movement. | 是啊,像我一样,我在保守运动中长大。 |
| 477 | So I have a lot of conservative friends. | 我有很多保守派的朋友 |
| 478 | I have conservative family members. | 我有保守的家庭成员。 |
| 479 | I mean, I mean, MAGA conservative types. | 我的意思是,我的意思是,MAGA保守的类型。 |
| 480 | And they'll occasionally say, how much do I have to pay you to stop writing? | 他们偶尔会说 我要付你多少钱才能停止写作? |
| 481 | They don't like what I write, but we have fun with it. | 他们不喜欢我写的东西 但我们玩得很开心 |
| 482 | And we argue all the time about it. | 我们一直在争论 |
| 483 | Well, this is the thing about, here's the thing. | 事情是这样的,事情是这样的。 |
| 484 | And this is what makes me most nervous about America. | 这就是我最紧张的美国。 |
| 485 | It's like the thing that will keep America, keep the United States | 这就像的东西 会保持美国,保持美国 |
| 486 | united is nothing more, nothing less than the ability, willingness of | 团结无异于能力 意志 |
| 487 | Americans to consciously impose restraints on themselves and restraints | 美国人会自觉地自我约束和约束 |
| 488 | on how far they will go rhetorically and otherwise, to express their | 他们以口头或其他方式表达他们的 |
| 489 | differences with their fellow Americans. | 和他们的美国同胞不同 |
| 490 | You have to start from precision. | 你必须从精度开始。 |
| 491 | No American is my enemy. | 没有美国人是我的敌人 |
| 492 | I don't have to like him. | 我不必喜欢他 |
| 493 | I don't have to agree with them, but no American is my, I mean, the way | 我不必同意他们的意见 但是没有美国人是我的路 |
| 494 | Trump talks about enemies of the people is obviously horrible. | 特朗普谈论人民的敌人显然是可怕的. |
| 495 | No American is my enemy and I will impose restraints on myself. | 没有美国人是我的敌人 我将自我约束 |
| 496 | I have the first amendment right to say whatever I want, but I don't need to | 我有第一个修正的权利 说我想说什么, 但我不需要 |
| 497 | exercise that right to the detriment of the American project. | 行使该权利而损害美国的项目。 |
| 498 | That's how we get out of this. | 故能解脱. |
| 499 | We don't get out of it through legislation. | 我们不通过立法摆脱它。 |
| 500 | We don't get out of it through constitutional amendment. | 我们不是通过修宪来摆脱的. |
| 501 | We don't get out of it through demography. | 我们不会通过人口学来摆脱它。 |
| 502 | We get out of it because people decide that more unites us than divides us. | 我们摆脱这一切是因为人们决定,使我们更加团结而不是分裂我们。 |
| 503 | And obviously there are people on both sides of the fence. | 显然,栅栏两侧都有人。 |
| 504 | I used to think we needed a war against Canada, but now we may | 我以前以为我们需要对加拿大开战 但现在我们可能 |
| 505 | actually get a war against Canada. | 实际上是对加拿大发动战争 |
| 506 | But I think that the liberals, for good reason, would be like, why are we | 但我认为,自由主义者,有很好的理由, 会喜欢,为什么我们 |
| 507 | having a war, I mean, if Canada like sucker punched us or something. | 开战,我的意思是,如果加拿大 像混蛋打我们什么的。 |
| 508 | I just mentioned some common foe. | 我刚提到一些普通的敌人。 |
| 509 | Martians would be a good one, but I think it's almost deeper than that. | 火星人会是一个很好的, 但我认为它几乎更深。 |
| 510 | I think, here's the thing, we don't have the Middle East, there's very | 我想,事情是这样的 我们没有中东,有非常 |
| 511 | obvious existential war unifying American people. | 显然存在战争 团结美国人民。 |
| 512 | But I go back to what we talked about earlier. | 但我回到我们之前说过的 |
| 513 | My experience in the nineties abroad made me so pro-American. | 我在90年代的海外经历让我如此亲美国. |
| 514 | I just love all Americans. | 我只是爱所有美国人。 |
| 515 | Like you can't love America and hate half the country. | 就像你不能爱美国 恨一半的国家。 |
| 516 | But my worry is that, and so I love going to Trump areas. | 但我的担心是, 所以我喜欢去特朗普地区。 |
| 517 | I love going to Brooklyn I have problems with. | 我喜欢去布鲁克林 我有问题。 |
| 518 | Depends on what part of Brooklyn. | 取决于布鲁克林的哪个部分 |
| 519 | Brooklyn is wildly diverse. | 布鲁克林非常多样 |
| 520 | So, but my fear is that it's not only we, there are no limits to how we | 所以,但我的恐惧是,它不仅是我们, 没有限制我们如何 |
| 521 | exercise our partisanship, but we've lost faith in the art of persuasion. | 但我们已经对说服艺术失去了信心 |
| 522 | And so I have this weird pet peeve when politicians say we're going to fight, | 我有一个奇怪的宠物尿尿 当政客说我们要战斗时, |
| 523 | when they use that word fight, which is now omnipresent. | 当他们使用这个词 战斗, 现在无处不在。 |
| 524 | I want to say fighting is for fascists. | 我想说战斗是为了法西斯 |
| 525 | Democracy is about persuasion. | 民主与说服有关。 |
| 526 | But I know a lot of journalists, opinion journalists who don't believe in | 但我知道很多记者, 意见记者谁不相信 |
| 527 | persuasion. | 劝曰. |
| 528 | You're going to make a lot of money as a political consultant, by the way. | 顺便说一句,你要赚很多钱做政治顾问 |
| 529 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 530 | It is about persuasion. | 这是关于说服。 |
| 531 | Of course. | 当然 |
| 532 | I mean, persuasion is the coin of the realm and democracies and coercion is | 我的意思是,说服是王国的硬币 民主和胁迫是 |
| 533 | the coin of the realm and autocracies. | 王国和专制的硬币。 |
| 534 | I don't like, I would love to be persuaded of, I mean, it's actually, I | 我不喜欢,我很想被说服, 我的意思是,事实上,我 |
| 535 | mean, I think it actually is like healthy for your brain to allow it to be | 意思是,我觉得这实际上就像健康的 你的大脑允许它是 |
| 536 | persuaded by evidence. | 证据说服。 |
| 537 | It's like, it means that, you know, your pistons are functioning. | 意思是 你的活塞正常运转 |
| 538 | But there are a lot of people in our business and their economic incentives to | 但有很多人在我们的生意 和他们的经济激励 |
| 539 | be in the mobilization business, not in the persuasion business. | 从事动员工作,而不是说服工作。 |
| 540 | And I don't know how to, I mean, and yet it's not as if 350 million Americans | 我不知道如何,我的意思, 但它不是像3.5亿美国人 |
| 541 | have to wake up tomorrow morning and say persuasion, not coercion. | 明天早上必须醒来 说劝人,不是强迫 |
| 542 | No American is my entity. | 没有美国人是我的实体。 |
| 543 | I will oppose restraint on the way I talk in order to make sure that my fellow | 为了保证我的同伴 |
| 544 | Americans understand that I do not consider them enemies. | 美国人明白我不认为他们是敌人 |
| 545 | I understand that that's a hard one. | 我知道这很难 |
| 546 | There are structural ways of, there are algorithmic ways, obviously, of | 有结构方法,有 算法方法,很明显, |
| 547 | lowering the temperature. | 降低温度。 |
| 548 | If we had non sociopaths running social media companies, they might program | 如果我们有非反社会者 经营社交媒体公司, 他们可能会节目 |
| 549 | for unity or, or fact as opposed, as opposed to programming for anger. | 团结或事实,而不是为愤怒而编程。 |
| 550 | But here we are. | 但是,我们在这里。 |
| 551 | No, let me tell me if I'm being an old foggy. | 不,让我来告诉我 如果我是一个老雾。 |
| 552 | You're an old foggy. | 你是一个老雾。 |
| 553 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 554 | I appreciate that. | 我很感激。 |
| 555 | That was a bit of emotional bath that I needed. | 那是我需要的一点情感浴 |
| 556 | So I used to, maybe I, I used to admire politicians more as people. | 所以,我过去,也许我, 我曾经更崇拜政治家的人。 |
| 557 | And I don't know if the politicians are getting lesser or if the system is | 我不知道政客们是否越来越少 或者制度是否 |
| 558 | getting lesser or is it the, some of the people I admired, I was just down in | 越来越少,或者,是的,一些 我钦佩的人,我只是下来 |
| 559 | Georgia and I met Sam Nunn's daughter. | 乔治娅和我遇到了萨姆·纳恩的女儿. |
| 560 | Sam Nunn was, and he, like Sam Nunn was a Senator, knew so much about | 山姆·纳恩是, 他,像山姆·纳恩是参议员, |
| 561 | defense policy, like he was a deeply knowledgeable guy as much as any policy | 国防政策,就像他是一个深知知识的人 就像任何政策一样 |
| 562 | wonk, we talked about McCain and Obama. | 我们谈过麦凯恩和奥巴马 |
| 563 | It's since they struck me as bigger when, Ted Kennedy was like a great | 泰德·肯尼迪就像一个伟大的人 |
| 564 | legislator, just a great, great legislator. | 立法者,只是一个伟大的,伟大的立法者。 |
| 565 | I think the two best legislators of my lifetime have been Ted Kennedy, who | 我这辈子最好的两位议员是泰德·肯尼迪 |
| 566 | really knew how to, who knew what everybody in the room needed. | 真正知道如何, 谁知道 每个人在房间里需要什么。 |
| 567 | And the other would be Nancy Pelosi. | 另一个是南希·佩洛西 |
| 568 | Every Republican in the Senate, seemingly every Republican in the | 每个共和党在参议院, 看起来每个共和党在参议院 |
| 569 | 参议院和Ted Kennedy的长任期 与Ted Kennedy有一个法案。 | |
| 570 | Kennedy would always find something to agree with someone and then, and then | 肯尼迪总是会找到 与某人同意,然后,然后 |
| 571 | legislate to their mutual advantage. | 立法有利于双方的利益。 |
| 572 | It's amazing thing to watch. | 观之甚奇. |
| 573 | I mean, it's funny when you talk to old senators, they're like, yeah, I | 我的意思是,这很有趣 当你说话 老参议员,他们喜欢,是的,我 |
| 574 | would sponsor that with Ted Kennedy. | 和泰德·肯尼迪一起赞助 |
| 575 | And then I was like, and I know you're surprised by this, like, no, it's | 然后我就喜欢, 我知道你很惊讶,喜欢,不,这是 |
| 576 | not, not, not surprising. | 不,不,不令人惊讶。 |
| 577 | There was like, he was also so secure as a liberal icon that, you know, if, if | 他就像一个自由的圣像一样 如此安全 |
| 578 | Ted Kennedy说 我在和Orrin Hatch做点什么 自由主义者 | |
| 579 | Massachusetts would say, oh, wow, you're a great legislator, not what are you | 马萨诸塞州会说,哦,哇,你是一个伟大的立法者,而不是你是什么 |
| 580 | 和Orrin Hatch一起吗? | |
| 581 | But he also, there was a skill to being a legislator, which they really worked on. | 但他也有成为立法者的技能, 他们真的做了。 |
| 582 | Now it's a skill it's getting on TV, but like the skill of politics. | 现在它正在电视上获得一种技能,但就像政治技能一样. |
| 583 | I think it's the temptation. | 我认为这是诱惑。 |
| 584 | The social media temptation, the ability to express your feelings is not | 社交媒体的诱惑 表达你感受的能力不是 |
| 585 | a, the ability to express your feelings 24 hours a day, instantaneously is | a. 每天24小时即刻表达感受的能力 |
| 586 | not a good thing. | 一点都不好 |
| 587 | You, you, you know, it's, it's, you know, you could spend all day long trying to | 你,你,你知道, 这是,这是,你知道, 你可以花一整天试图 |
| 588 | maintain your filters and you can't. | 保持你的过滤器,你不能。 |
| 589 | Um, so that's, that's sometimes why, I mean, you know, I get even people of | 嗯,所以,这就是,有时 这就是为什么,我的意思是,你知道, 我得到甚至人们 |
| 590 | dignity succumb and, you know, I, I just, I would really like it just the next | 尊严屈从,你知道,我,我只是, 我真的希望它只是下一个 |
| 591 | president to be just a dignified person who doesn't rise to the bait all the | 总统只是一个没有上钩的有尊严的人 |
| 592 | time and just explains to the American people over and over again, this is what | 时间和刚刚解释 美国人民一遍又一遍,这就是 |
| 593 | a president does. | 总统有 |
| 594 | This is what a president doesn't do. | 总统不会这么做的 |
| 595 | I'm not going to do the things that presidents don't do. | 我不会做总统不做的事 |
| 596 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 597 | Let's talk about the future and I'm going to tell you why I'm optimistic about | 让我们来谈谈未来,我要告诉你 为什么我乐观 |
| 598 | America and you can tell me why my theory is ridiculous. | 美国和你可以告诉我为什么我的理论是荒谬的。 |
| 599 | So in 2020, we define the fall of the Roman Empire. | 因此在2020年,我们定义了罗马帝国的衰落. |
| 600 | Uh, so in 2020, I'm reading a book, I'm sitting at home, uh, in COVID and I'm | 嗯,所以在2020年,我在读一本书, 我坐在家里,呃,在COVID,我 |
| 601 | reading a book by Samuel Huntington, the politics of disharmony, is it the promise | 读塞缪尔·亨廷顿的书 政治不和谐,这是承诺吗? |
| 602 | of disharmony is the subtitle, the title was American politics. | 标题是美国政治 |
| 603 | And he says, every couple of generations, America goes through a moral convulsion. | 他说,每几代人,美国都会经历道德震荡。 |
| 604 | Uh, people get disgusted with established power, high distrust. | 人们对既有权力 高度不信任感到厌恶 |
| 605 | They want to burn everything down. | 他们想烧掉一切 |
| 606 | There's new passion generation comes on the scene, new form of | 现场出现了新的激情 新的形式 |
| 607 | communications technology. | 通讯技术。 |
| 608 | He says this happened in the 17 seventies, the revolutionary period, 1830s, | 他说这发生在17世纪70年代 革命时期 1830年代 |
| 609 | Andrew Jackson populist era, 1890s, the industrial revolution, which leads | 安德鲁·杰克逊民粹主义时代 1890年代 工业革命 领导 |
| 610 | to the progressive era in the 1960s. | 在20世纪60年代, |
| 611 | And these periods he says are brutal to live through. | 他说这些时期过得很残酷 |
| 612 | So he's writing this in 1982 and he says, if the pattern holds sometime around | 所以他在1982年写了这篇文章 他说 如果图案能维持一段时间 |
| 613 | the second decade of the 21st century, America will go through another | 21世纪第二个十年,美国将经历另一个 |
| 614 | moral convulsion and I'm like, well done, professor Huntington. | 道德震荡,我就像, 干得好,亨廷顿教授。 |
| 615 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 616 | And, but the good news is you come out of them. | 但好消息是你从他们身上出来 |
| 617 | Right. | 对 |
| 618 | And so we've been through this so many, six or seven times before. | 所以我们经历了这么多次,六七次。 |
| 619 | And I think the question, I think we come out of them the way we're | 我想问题是,我想我们从他们中脱颖而出 |
| 620 | coming out of them right now, which is you have a cultural shift, a value | 现在就出来,这就是你的文化转变,价值 |
| 621 | shift, and then that leads to a politics shift. | 这会导致政治的转变。 |
| 622 | And we've gone through a period of brutal nihilism. | 我们经历了一段残酷的虚无主义时期. |
| 623 | And I think I look at like, you go back to the Fred Rogers movies where | 我想我看起来像, 你回到弗雷德罗杰斯的电影 |
| 624 | people were weeping in the theater because they want to see a good person. | 人们在剧院哭泣 因为他们想看到一个好人。 |
| 625 | Or you go to the Ted Lasso people loved it because they | 或者你去找泰德·拉索的人 因为他们喜欢 |
| 626 | wanted to see a good person upbeat. | 希望看到一个好人兴奋。 |
| 627 | I just saw Devil Wears Prada too. | 我刚刚看到魔鬼穿普拉达。 |
| 628 | The Anne Hathaway character is a good person. | 安妮·哈撒威这个角色是个好人 |
| 629 | I think most of Zoran Mondani's policies are horrific, but he smiles when he talks. | 我认为Zoran Mondani的大部分政策是可怕的,但他说话时会微笑. |
| 630 | He's a happy guy. | 他是一个快乐的家伙。 |
| 631 | And I think he's a brilliant politician. | 我认为他是一个杰出的政治家。 |
| 632 | And so to me, this is all part of a buildup of a cultural value shift, a | 因此,对我来说,这一切都是 文化价值转变的一部分,一个 |
| 633 | vibe shift as big as we've seen in any of these other moral convulsions. | 气氛的转变 和我们在其他道德震荡中看到的一样大 |
| 634 | It makes total sense to me that that's what's about to happen. | 这对我来说是完全合理的,即将发生的事情。 |
| 635 | And we're seeing the early days of it. | 并见其早期. |
| 636 | It's funny because my perfect president would combine the best qualities of | 这很有趣,因为我完美的总统 会结合最好的品质 |
| 637 | Anne Hathaway and Zoran Mondani. | 安妮·哈撒威和佐兰·蒙达尼. |
| 638 | How did you know that? | 你怎么知道这个的? |
| 639 | How do you read my mind like that? | 你怎么读我的心? |
| 640 | How do you do that? | 你怎么做到的? |
| 641 | I'm perfectly open to the idea that we're that this is a midlife crisis or whatever | 我完全接受这个想法,即我们是 中年危机什么的 |
| 642 | you want to call it and that we're coming out. | 你想叫它,我们就要出来了。 |
| 643 | I don't, I prefer not to think that it's a terminal illness. | 我没有,我宁愿不认为 这是一个末期疾病。 |
| 644 | I think that there's one huge put aside AI, which I don't know how it's going to | 我认为有一个巨大的 放在一边的AI, 我不知道它会如何 |
| 645 | like how that ball bounces. | 就像那个球如何反弹。 |
| 646 | Right. | 对 |
| 647 | But social media generally, I don't know what you can do contemplatively | 但一般社交媒体,我不知道你有什么办法 |
| 648 | in that age of social media. | 在那个社交媒体时代 |
| 649 | All that being said, if the, if people on the right accept the basic undergirding | 说这些,如果,如果, 如果右边的人 接受基本基础 |
| 650 | principles of creedal nationalism, which is like, we're elsewhere allegiance to | 信仰民族主义的原则, 也就是说,我们在别的地方效忠于 |
| 651 | a, to a constitution and a, and a, and we love the flag and everybody lives here | a,对宪法,a,a,a,A,我们爱国旗,每个人都住在这里。 |
| 652 | together and we're a big multicultural democracy and the American idea is that | 我们是一个多元文化的民主国家 美国的想法是 |
| 653 | no one is better than me and I'm bet I'm not better than anyone and we're all | 没有人比我好 我敢打赌,我比任何人都好 |
| 654 | going to create opportunity for those. | 将为这些创造机会。 |
| 655 | Great. | 不错 |
| 656 | Um, and that people on the left have to not talk about identity and division all | 左边的人不能谈身份和分裂 |
| 657 | the time and try to divide based on resentment categories, right. | 根据怨恨的类别来划分时间,对吗? |
| 658 | And, and sort of downplay like, like the, on the right downplay the nativist | 右侧的纳蒂维主义者 |
| 659 | impulses that are universal. | 冲动是普遍的。 |
| 660 | Um, and on the left downplay the things that divide and upplay the things that | 在左边 轻描淡写那些分裂的东西 |
| 661 | unite because you and I both know this because we travel around the world. | 团结是因为你和我都知道 因为我们环游世界 |
| 662 | When you meet an American outside America, it's the greatest thing in the | 当你遇到一个美国人 在美国之外,这是最棒的事情 |
| 663 | world. | 这个世界 |
| 664 | It doesn't matter where you're from. | 何等为众生. |
| 665 | You're just like so ineluctably American. | 你就像美国人一样 |
| 666 | You're just doing, you know, and, and you're so excited. | 你只是做,你知道, 而且,你是如此兴奋。 |
| 667 | It doesn't matter that you're from, you know, Brooklyn and this one is from | 你来自布鲁克林,这个来自 |
| 668 | Montana. | 蒙大拿岛. |
| 669 | You're American. | 你是美国人。 |
| 670 | And, you know, it's like, that's what I, that's what I love about American. | 而且,你知道,这就像, 这就是我,这就是我喜欢美国人。 |
| 671 | It's a shame that sometimes you have to go outside of America to get that | 可惜有时你不得不离开美国 才能得到这个 |
| 672 | feeling among Americans, but I don't know what the, I don't have a prescription | 美国人的感觉,但我不知道是什么, 我没有处方 |
| 673 | for how to make people understand these things. | 如何让人们理解这些事情。 |
| 674 | And I hope that we can find our way to these things the easy way and not the | 我希望我们能够找到我们的方法 以简单的方式,而不是 |
| 675 | hard way, but at the end of an easy way or a hard way is this renewed | 硬路,但最后 简单的方式或硬路 是更新 |
| 676 | understanding, I think, I hope. | 理解,我想,我希望。 |
| 677 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 678 | And I think nations decline, not when they go through turmoil, but when they | 我认为国家会衰落 不是当它们经历动荡时 而是当它们 |
| 679 | run out of energy and we are not, we have all this Mishigas around us, but we | 能量耗尽了,我们没有, 我们身边有这么多米希加斯,但我们 |
| 680 | haven't run out of energy. | 没有耗尽能量。 |
| 681 | That's for sure. | 当然 |
| 682 | No, we haven't run out of energy for the Mishigas. | 不,我们没有耗尽米希加斯的能量。 |
| 683 | Um, but, um, at a certain point, these things you forget, I was on Cyprus | 嗯,但是,嗯, 在某个时候, 这些事情你忘了, 我当时在塞浦路斯 |
| 684 | once and, you know, you cross the, you cross the DMZ and you talk to people on | 一次,你知道,你跨越了, 你跨越了DMZ,你说话的人在 |
| 685 | both sides and they're like, I don't know. | 两边都一样,我不知道。 |
| 686 | I don't remember. | 我不记得了 |
| 687 | Like what, when's the last thing, when's the last crazy thing to happen? | 比如说,什么时候是最后一件事,什么时候是最后一件疯狂的事情? |
| 688 | I don't know. | 师曰. |
| 689 | You know, and, and you're like, if it went back to Greece, would you care? | 你知道,你喜欢,如果它回到希腊, 你会在乎吗? |
| 690 | No, things burn out, you know, but we're not at the burn. | 不,事情烧了,你知道, 但我们不在烧。 |
| 691 | We're not at that burn stage yet. | 我们还没进入燃烧阶段 |
| 692 | I want to bring us home here. | 我想把我们带回家 |
| 693 | Try to this question. | 试试这个问题。 |
| 694 | Did we accomplish anything in this podcast? | 我们在这个播客中完成了什么吗? |
| 695 | We did a podcast. | 我们做了播客。 |
| 696 | This is a pointillist painting by, uh, Surat, and we have had so many points | 这是苏拉特画的尖塔画 我们有过这么多的点 |
| 697 | that all add up to one beautiful picture. | 再加上一幅美丽的画 |
| 698 | And, uh, that picture is to me, the Atlantic magazine is the | 那张照片对我来说是大西洋杂志 |
| 699 | Atlantic magazine embodied truth. | 大西洋杂志包含了真理。 |
| 700 | Uh, I, but I, I won't, to me, I'm reminded there was a guy, um, Abraham | 呃,我,但我,我不会,对我来说, 有人提醒我有一个家伙,嗯,亚伯拉罕 |
| 701 | Kuyper and he had a theory of the spheres that there are a lot of different | 库伊珀和他有一个理论 关于球体有很多不同的 |
| 702 | spheres in society and there's the political sphere, there's a religious | 社会领域 政治领域 宗教领域 |
| 703 | sphere, there's a capitalist sphere, there's a family sphere, and it's | 球体 资本主义球体 家族球体 |
| 704 | really important to keep them apart and to know that the logic of one sphere | 让他们分开 并且知道一个领域的逻辑 |
| 705 | does not pertain to the logic of other spheres and his argument was we've | 和其他领域的逻辑无关 他的论点是: |
| 706 | collapsed all the spheres and we've taken the role, the logic of politics | 我们承担了政治的逻辑 |
| 707 | and applied it to the logic of education or higher lease higher ed is super | 并把它应用到 教育或更高租赁的逻辑 是超级 |
| 708 | politicized, a logic of popular culture. | 政治化,一种流行文化的逻辑. |
| 709 | That's super politicized. | 这是超级政治化的。 |
| 710 | Every scandal that breaks up, it breaks down immediately on partisan lines. | 每一个破碎的丑闻,都会立即在党派路线上破灭. |
| 711 | Everything is seen through that lens. | 所有东西都从这个镜头里看出来 |
| 712 | And so we've broken down the spheres and that's a problem for all of us. | 因此,我们打破了球体,这是我们所有人的问题。 |
| 713 | I think we have to segregate the impulses of politics away from the other | 我认为我们必须把政治的冲动 与对方分开 |
| 714 | parts of life that are more complicated and more, you know, politics can make | 生活的一部分 更复杂 更多的,你知道,政治可以 |
| 715 | you inhuman and get down to your daily. | 你个不人道的人 继续日报 |
| 716 | I mean, I getting older. | 我变老了 |
| 717 | So like, I'm more in the, I attribute this to chronology, but I don't know. | 所以,我更喜欢,我将此归因于编年史, 但我不知道。 |
| 718 | Um, I'm more in the nature, spiritual religions like, like, like, you know, I | 嗯,我更在自然, 精神宗教喜欢,喜欢,你知道的,我 |
| 719 | think part of it is, and this has been a theme of this conversation. | 认为它的一部分是, 这一直是这个谈话的主题。 |
| 720 | I will try to organize a coherence to this conversation. | 我将努力组织这次对话的一致性。 |
| 721 | I think that the older you get in journalism and maybe politics too, I | 我想你的年纪越大 新闻和也许政治也一样,我 |
| 722 | think now I've seen most things. | 想想现在我看到了很多东西 |
| 723 | Many of the things that I've seen in politics and journalism, I've seen | 我在政治和新闻界看到的很多事 |
| 724 | three or four or five times, nothing's new under the sun to borrow or | 三、四、五次,太阳下没什么新东西可以借 |
| 725 | Ecclesiastes, um, uh, nothing is new and that makes it a little bit more boring. | 爱克蕾西雅斯特,嗯,嗯,没有什么是新的, 这使得它有点无聊。 |
| 726 | So you're trying to find the thing that's actually transcendent out of this. | 因此,你试图找到 的东西实际上超越了这一点。 |
| 727 | Um, you know, in one hand it, it, it leads to our friend, Ruth | 嗯,你知道,用一只手, 它导致我们的朋友,露丝 |
| 728 | Marcus calls it calm mastery. | 马库斯称之为冷静掌握。 |
| 729 | It's like, okay, I've been through that crisis already. | 这就像,好吧,我已经经历了危机。 |
| 730 | I did that. | 我这样做。 |
| 731 | I know what, I know what happens, but on the other hand, you're looking for | 我知道,我知道发生了什么, 但另一方面,你正在寻找 |
| 732 | something more. | 再来点 |
| 733 | And so I read more Emerson than I used to. | 所以我读了更多的爱默生比我以前。 |
| 734 | Um, I, I read more Bible than I used to. | 嗯,我,我读的圣经比我以前多。 |
| 735 | I read Psalms more than I used to. | 念诵菩萨胜过昔. |
| 736 | Um, I try to very deliberately go into nature more than I used to. | 嗯,我试图非常 故意进入自然 比我以前多。 |
| 737 | Um, and, um, by the way, I mean, it was just last week out in the redwoods. | 嗯,嗯,顺便说一句, 我的意思是,它只是上周出 在红杉。 |
| 738 | Um, and there's nothing like go right up to a redwood and look up and, and | 嗯,没有什么比去 右到红杉 和抬头,和 |
| 739 | like, you're really going to think that some fight on, on MSNOW or Fox is | 喜欢,你真的会认为 一些战斗在, 在MSNOW或福克斯是 |
| 740 | important, standing next to a 1400 year old redwood, like, you know, it's | 重要的是,站在一个1400年的红杉旁边, 就像,你知道,这是 |
| 741 | just like putting things into perspective and, and understanding that | 就像把事情的视角和理解 |
| 742 | it's, it's that not much matters. | 这没什么大不了的 |
| 743 | The things that matter, matter hugely, but not much actually matter. | 重要的事情,很重要,但实际上并不重要。 |
| 744 | I'm sorry. | 对不起 |
| 745 | I'm getting all like, | 我越来越喜欢, |
| 746 | well, this is why the permanent questions is here for you. | 这就是永久问题的原因 |
| 747 | That's what we're doing. | 这就是我们在做什么。 |
| 748 | If I listen every week, I will understand you. | 如果我每周听,我会理解你。 |
| 749 | We are the verbal equivalent of a redwood and, and, and I just wanted | 我们口头上相当于一个红木,而且,我只是想 |
| 750 | to express the point of this. | 来表达这一点。 |
| 751 | You're one of the shorter redwoods I've ever met by the way, spiritually | 你是我见过最矮的红杉之一 从精神上讲 |
| 752 | tall, but spiritually, your canopy, your canopy shades us all. | 高,但精神上,你的树冠, 你的树冠遮蔽了我们所有人。 |
| 753 | Ultimately, your decision to hire me was, was a wise one. | 归根结底,你雇用我的决定是明智的 |
| 754 | I think that's why we're here as wise as a redwood, Jeffrey Goldberg. | 我想这就是为什么我们在这里像红杉一样明智,杰弗里·戈德伯格. |
| 755 | Thank you for being on the permanent questions. | 感谢大家提出长期问题。 |
| 756 | There were times when I was covering political campaigns and I would be | 有几次我报道政治竞选 我将会 |
| 757 | deep in political everything and I would take time off to read an | 深处政治一切,我会花时间去读一本 |
| 758 | essay written by the essayist CS Lewis. | 散文作者CS刘易斯. |
| 759 | And he talked about how medieval people looked at the night sky. | 他谈到了中世纪人们如何看待夜空. |
| 760 | We see the night sky and we see balls of gas. | 我们看见夜空和气球 |
| 761 | They looked at the night sky and they just saw enchantment and his | 他们看着夜空 他们只看到魔法和他 |
| 762 | description of the way they saw the world as enchanted always used to | 描述他们如何看待世界 被魔法总是习惯于 |
| 763 | lift my spirit. | 举起我的灵魂 |
| 764 | And in the midst of a political season, I needed something to lift my spirit. | 在政治季节,我需要一些东西来提升我的精神。 |
| 765 | And so I resonated when Jeff talked about the redwoods, about that maybe | 所以我在杰夫谈论红杉时 产生了共鸣 也许 |
| 766 | as you get older or maybe we just are exhausted by the politics of the last | 你变老了,也许我们被最后的政治所耗尽 |
| 767 | 10 years, when Jeff talked about going out to the redwoods, sitting under a | 10年了,当杰夫谈到 出去红杉,坐在一个 |
| 768 | redwood and looking up, suddenly the world is enchanted again. | 红木和抬头,突然 世界又被魔法所迷住了。 |
| 769 | Or he talked about reading the Bible, reading spiritual books, reading | 或者他谈到阅读圣经,阅读精神书籍,阅读 |
| 770 | deeper literature, suddenly in the midst of the random flux of political | 更深入的文学,突然在政治的随机流动之中 |
| 771 | debate, it's important to care about the permanent things. | 辩论,重要的是 关心永久的事情。 |
| 772 | And that's one of the reasons that motivated me to do this podcast. | 这也是促使我做播客的原因之一。 |
| 773 | Frankly, I was tired of the daily bounce of politics. | 老实说,我厌倦了每天的政治反弹。 |
| 774 | I wanted to step back at what really mattered. | 我想退一步 真正重要的是。 |
| 775 | And I think with Jeff's conversation, we saw how important that is. | 我认为杰夫的谈话,我们看到了这有多重要。 |
| 776 | Thanks so much for joining us for this week's conversation with Jeffrey | 非常感谢你加入我们 这周和杰弗里的对话 |
| 777 | Goldberg, The Permanent Questions is produced and edited by The Atlantic | Goldberg,《永久问题》由大西洋制作和编辑。 |
| 778 | in partnership with Yale University. | 与耶鲁大学合作。 |
| 779 | New episodes of The Permanent Questions come out on Sundays. | "永久问题"新剧集周日上映. |
| 780 | 你可以在大西洋的YouTube频道 在Spotify,在苹果, | |
| 781 | or wherever you get your podcasts. | 或你得到的播客。 |
| 782 | If you want to support this work or the work of my colleagues, you can | 如果你想支持这项工作或我的同事的工作,你可以 |
| 783 | 在Atlantic.com的slash listener上订阅该出版物。 | |
| 784 | See you next week. | 下周见 |
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