7-17 泽连斯基在乌克兰面临抗议声浪 | BBC全球新闻播
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | Welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎来到英国广播公司的全球新闻播客。 |
| 0:02 | I'm Celia Hatton and today we're joined | 我是西莉亚·哈顿 今天我们一起 |
| 0:04 | by Vitaly Shevchenko. | 维塔利·舍甫琴科著. |
| 0:05 | He's BBC Monitoring's chief analyst and he's also an expert on | 他是BBCMonitor的首席分析师 他也是一位专家 |
| 0:10 | Russia and Ukraine. | 俄罗斯和乌克兰。 |
| 0:11 | Vitaly, from the outside, Ukraine looks to be doing quite well at the | 维塔利,从外部看,乌克兰看起来在 |
| 0:16 | moment in its war against Russia. | 在对俄国的战争中 |
| 0:18 | But today we've seen protests against the government | 但今天我们看到了反对政府的抗议 |
| 0:22 | in Kyiv. | 在基辅。 |
| 0:23 | What's going on? | 这是怎么回事? |
展开字幕全文（221 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Welcome to the Global News podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎来到英国广播公司的全球新闻播客。 |
| 2 | I'm Celia Hatton and today we're joined | 我是西莉亚·哈顿 今天我们一起 |
| 3 | by Vitaly Shevchenko. | 维塔利·舍甫琴科著. |
| 4 | He's BBC Monitoring's chief analyst and he's also an expert on | 他是BBCMonitor的首席分析师 他也是一位专家 |
| 5 | Russia and Ukraine. | 俄罗斯和乌克兰。 |
| 6 | Vitaly, from the outside, Ukraine looks to be doing quite well at the | 维塔利,从外部看,乌克兰看起来在 |
| 7 | moment in its war against Russia. | 在对俄国的战争中 |
| 8 | But today we've seen protests against the government | 但今天我们看到了反对政府的抗议 |
| 9 | in Kyiv. | 在基辅。 |
| 10 | What's going on? | 这是怎么回事? |
| 11 | Ukraine is doing really well. | 乌克兰做得非常好。 |
| 12 | So well, in fact, that President Zelensky, earlier this | 事实上 泽伦斯基总统 早些时候 |
| 13 | week, he said that the Ukrainian army was in the best ever position on the front line. | 他说,乌克兰军队在前线处于有史以来最好的位置。 |
| 14 | And yet, three days later, his defence minister, Mikhail Ofedrov, seems to be on the way out. | 然而,三天后,他的国防部长米哈伊尔·奥费德罗夫似乎正在离开。 |
| 15 | On the face of it, it's a really puzzling decision because Mikhail Ofedrov is one of | 从表面上看,这是一个非常令人费解的决定,因为Mikhail Ofedrov是其中之一。 |
| 16 | the key architects of Ukraine's drone revolution. | 乌克兰无人机革命的关键建筑师. |
| 17 | Digitally minded, forward thinking, all about | 数字思维,前向思维,所有关于 |
| 18 | drones, AI, cutting edge technology. | 无人机,AI,尖端技术. |
| 19 | All these things have transformed modern warfare. | 所有这些东西都改变了现代战争. |
| 20 | The | 那个 |
| 21 | Ukrainian army has regained a lot of territory because of all this. | 由于这一切,乌克兰军队重新获得了许多领土. |
| 22 | But Valentin Zelensky | 但瓦伦丁·泽连斯基 |
| 23 | said that the defence minister, Mikhail Ofedrov, and the Ukrainian army's commander in chief, | 国防部长米哈伊尔·奥费德罗夫和乌克兰军队总司令 |
| 24 | Alexander Sersky, basically cannot stand each other. | 亚历山大·塞尔斯基,基本上无法相互忍受. |
| 25 | They cannot work together. | 他们不能一起工作。 |
| 26 | To give | 给 |
| 27 | you a quote, Celia, Zelensky said that they can't, they wouldn't even sit down together | 塞莉亚,塞伦斯基说你不能,他们甚至不会坐下来 |
| 28 | without the president being in the room. | 总统不在房间里 |
| 29 | So, Valentin Zelensky said that he was really | 所以,瓦伦丁·泽连斯基说他真的 |
| 30 | sorry about having to make a choice, having to choose between these two really, really | 抱歉不得不做出选择 不得不在两者之间做出选择 |
| 31 | important men, but a choice had to be made. | 重要人物,但必须做出选择。 |
| 32 | And it looks like he's chosen Alexander Sersky, | 看起来他选了亚历山大·塞尔斯基 |
| 33 | the commander in chief, over Mikhail Ofedrov, the defence minister. | 统帅米哈伊尔·奥费德洛夫 国防部长 |
| 34 | Now, Mikhail Ofedrov | 现在,米哈伊尔·奥费德罗夫 |
| 35 | also gave a news conference earlier today, and he was scathingly critical of Alexander | 今天早些时候他还开过记者会 他却对亚历山大提出批评 |
| 36 | Sersky. | 塞尔斯基. |
| 37 | He said that the commander in chief of the Ukrainian army was busy causing divisions | 他说,乌克兰军队总司令正忙于制造分裂 |
| 38 | in Ukraine rather than finding ways of defeating Russia. | 而不是寻找击败俄罗斯的方法 |
| 39 | The outgoing defence minister also | 即将卸任的国防部长也 |
| 40 | accused General Sersky of stonewalling the defence ministry's initiatives. | 指控塞尔斯基将军 破坏国防部的行动 |
| 41 | And at the | 还有... |
| 42 | moment of speaking, it looks like Mr. Ofedrov is not completely out. | 现在看来奥费德洛夫先生还没有完全退出 |
| 43 | So, one of the journalists | 所以,一个记者 |
| 44 | asked him, okay, is there a theoretical possibility of you staying on if President Zelensky changes | 问他,好吧,如果泽连斯基总统变换, 理论上你还可能留下来吗? |
| 45 | his mind? | 他的思想吗? |
| 46 | And Mikhail Ofedrov said he couldn't really see a way of continuing to work with | 米哈伊尔·奥费德罗夫说,他无法真正看到一种继续合作的方式 |
| 47 | General Sersky, but he said that he would be still somehow involved in this mission | 塞尔斯基将军,但他说 他仍然会参与这个任务 |
| 48 | of defeating Russia. | 打败俄国 |
| 49 | Fascinating. | 异闻. |
| 50 | So, we have this political drama at the very top of the Ukrainian government | 因此,我们有这种政治戏剧 在乌克兰政府的最高层 |
| 51 | unfolding. | 正在发展。 |
| 52 | But the Ukrainian military is also under a lot of pressure, isn't it, Vitaly? | 但乌克兰军方也受到很大压力,不是吗,维塔利? |
| 53 | Just last week, we saw a huge protest, almost a riot in Lviv. | 就在上周,我们看到了一场巨大的抗议,几乎是利沃夫的骚乱. |
| 54 | Can you take us through what | 你能带我们通过什么 |
| 55 | happened there and we'll get into the problems behind it? | 发生在那里,我们会 进入问题背后? |
| 56 | This is one of the reasons why President Zelensky isn't really happy with how things are going | 这就是为什么泽连斯基总统 对事情的发展不满意的原因之一 |
| 57 | within his military. | 在他的军队。 |
| 58 | In Lviv, as you mentioned, Silvia, a group of people overturned a van | 在利沃夫,正如你提到的,西尔维娅,一群人推翻了一辆面包车 |
| 59 | used by military recruiters, physically turned it upside down, jumped on it and caused a | 被军队招募者使用, 身体颠倒,跳上,并造成 |
| 60 | riot. | 暴动 |
| 61 | It's shocking, but by no means unusual. | 这是令人震惊的,但绝不是不寻常的。 |
| 62 | This has been going on for years, frankly. | 坦率地说,这种情况已经持续了好几年。 |
| 63 | Ukraine is struggling to recruit more people to go to the front line. | 乌克兰正在努力招募更多人前往前线。 |
| 64 | It's a huge issue. | 这是一个巨大的问题。 |
| 65 | And the defence minister said that fighting should be done by machines rather than people, | 国防部长说,战斗应该由机器而不是人来进行, |
| 66 | especially given how difficult it is for the Ukrainian military to recruit new people. | 特别是考虑到乌克兰军队招募新兵是多么困难。 |
| 67 | So even though so many Ukrainians are, as we have seen, patriotic, they are fighting | 所以,尽管这么多的乌克兰人,我们已经看到,爱国, 他们正在战斗 |
| 68 | for their country's survival, at the end of the day, it comes down to a choice between | 为了他们国家的生存, 最终,它要做出一个选择 |
| 69 | life and death. | 生死相续. |
| 70 | Going to the front line can mean death. | 去前线可能意味着死亡。 |
| 71 | And not everyone, literally, is | 而不是每个人,字面意思是, |
| 72 | prepared to go to the front line and die for the sake of their country. | 准备去前线,为了国家而死 |
| 73 | So these people | 所以这些人 |
| 74 | in Lviv, for example, they just didn't want to do that. | 比如在利沃夫 他们就是不想这么做 |
| 75 | And that is a huge challenge. | 这是一个巨大的挑战。 |
| 76 | Thousands and thousands of young Ukrainians have died in the front line. | 数以千计的乌克兰青年死于前线。 |
| 77 | Many more thousands | 数以千计 |
| 78 | were maimed. | 被致残。 |
| 79 | When I was in Kiev earlier this year, it was striking to see so many young | 我今年早些时候在基辅时 看到这么多年轻 |
| 80 | people in wheelchairs, missing limbs. | 坐在轮椅上的人 缺肢 |
| 81 | It didn't used to be like that. | 以前不是这样的 |
| 82 | When you drive | 当你开车的时候 |
| 83 | across Ukraine, every single little village, no matter how small, there's a cemetery and | 整个乌克兰,每一个小村庄, 无论多么小, 有一个墓地和 |
| 84 | there would be fresh graves with Ukrainian flags fluttering above them. | 上面会飘扬着乌克兰国旗的新坟墓 |
| 85 | These are soldiers | 这些是士兵 |
| 86 | killed recently. | 最近被杀了 |
| 87 | So there's a lot of talk about patriotism and resilience in Ukraine. | 因此,对于乌克兰的爱国主义和韧性,人们有不少说法. |
| 88 | But the fact is, the understandable fact is, not everyone is willing to die. | 但事实是,可以理解的是,不是每个人都愿意死。 |
| 89 | Vitaly, there's another layer to all of this that I want to ask you about as well, because | 维塔利,所有这一切还有另一层 我想问你,因为 |
| 90 | pressure is mounting on Vladimir Zelensky's government because of a string of corruption | 因为一连串腐败 弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基政府的压力越来越大 |
| 91 | scandals. | 丑闻 |
| 92 | What's been going on there? | 发生什么事了? |
| 93 | Vladimir Zelensky has been trying. | 弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基一直在努力. |
| 94 | He's been making efforts to improve things by the sound | 他一直努力通过声音改进事情 |
| 95 | of it. | 对 |
| 96 | One huge step, well, that's a popular opinion among Ukrainians and commentators | 这是乌克兰人和评论家的普遍观点 |
| 97 | abroad, was getting rid of his powerful chief of staff, head of the presidential office, | 他的权势的幕僚长 总统办公厅主任 |
| 98 | (原始内容存档于2018-03-27). Andriy Yermak. | |
| 99 | He was generally seen as the great cardinal pulling the strings behind | 他一般被认为是伟大的红衣主教 在背后拉弦 |
| 100 | the scenes. | 场景。 |
| 101 | He had to go among a swirl of corruption claims. | 他不得不在一系列腐败指控中介入。 |
| 102 | And this whole government | 整个政府 |
| 103 | reshuffle about which we're talking today can in a certain way be seen as part of the | 我们今天谈论的重组,在某种意义上,可以看作是其中的一部分。 |
| 104 | same effort by President Zelensky. | 泽连斯基总统同样努力 |
| 105 | The former prime minister, Yulia Sviridenko, who was | 前总理尤利娅·斯维里登科曾任 |
| 106 | replaced today, she was generally seen as somebody who is or was linked to Andriy Yermak. | 她今天被取代 被普遍认为是和安德里·耶尔马克有关联的人 |
| 107 | Now she's gone as well. | 现在她也走了 |
| 108 | So Vladimir Zelensky, when he's confronted with allegations of | 因此,弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基, 当他面对的指控 |
| 109 | corruption, he would say, well, look, I'm doing something. | 腐败,他会说, 好吧,你看,我在做一些事情。 |
| 110 | I'm getting rid of various | 我摆脱了各种 |
| 111 | people. | 人们 |
| 112 | I'm reshuffling. | 复次须弥. |
| 113 | I'm appointing new people. | 我在任命新人 |
| 114 | This is my way of making sure that | 这是我确保 |
| 115 | corruption stops. | 腐败停止。 |
| 116 | However, what we're seeing today harks back to a huge extent to what | 然而,今天我们所看到的东西 在很大程度上又回到了 |
| 117 | we saw exactly a year ago when there were efforts, I would say spearheaded by the presidential | 一年前,当有人努力的时候,我想说,总统带头 |
| 118 | office, to curtail the autonomy of Ukraine's anti-corruption agencies. | 办事处,限制乌克兰反腐败机构的自主权。 |
| 119 | And then, just like | 然后,就这样 |
| 120 | now, protestors turned out in huge numbers in Kiev and across Ukraine, holding up sort | 基辅和乌克兰各地抗议者人数众多, |
| 121 | of simple homemade posters on pieces of cardboard. | 纸板上的简单自制海报 |
| 122 | So this is what we're seeing in Kiev today. | 这就是我们今天在基辅看到的。 |
| 123 | This is what we saw in Kiev last year. | 这是我们去年在基辅看到的。 |
| 124 | Last year it worked. | 去年,它的工作。 |
| 125 | The president's office backtracked | 总统办公室倒行逆施 |
| 126 | and those anti-corruption agencies preserved their authority and independence. | 以及这些反腐败机构维护其权威和独立性。 |
| 127 | Will it | 会吗? |
| 128 | work now? | 现在工作? |
| 129 | We'll just see. | 我们等着瞧吧 |
| 130 | But to me, frankly, at this stage, it looks unlikely. | 但坦率地说,对我来说,在目前阶段,似乎不太可能。 |
| 131 | It looks | 看起来 |
| 132 | like Mikhail Fedorov is genuinely on the way out. | 就像米哈伊尔·费多洛夫真的要出去一样 |
| 133 | What about Volodymyr Zelensky? | 沃洛迪米尔·泽伦斯基呢? |
| 134 | How much political support does he have or is support amongst | 他有多少政治支持或支持 |
| 135 | the public? | 大众? |
| 136 | On the one hand, he is by far the most popular politician in Ukraine. | 一方面,他是乌克兰迄今为止最受欢迎的政治家. |
| 137 | I had a look at the | 我看过了 |
| 138 | recent figures and he is well in the lead with 32% of Ukrainians saying they would vote | 最近的数字,他非常领先 32%的乌克兰人说他们会投票 |
| 139 | for him again if a presidential election were to be held this coming weekend. | 如果下个周末要举行总统选举的话 |
| 140 | Number two | 二号 |
| 141 | is a general that Volodymyr Zelensky sort of got rid of. | 是沃洛迪米尔·泽伦斯基摆脱的将军 |
| 142 | And number three is the current | 第三个是现在 |
| 143 | chief of staff of the presidential office, Kirill Obudanov. | 总统办公厅主任基里尔·奥布达诺夫. |
| 144 | But on the other hand, it | 但另一方面,它 |
| 145 | doesn't mean that President Zelensky is universally admired and revered in Ukraine. | 这并不意味着泽连斯基总统在乌克兰受到普遍推崇和崇敬. |
| 146 | As we are | 就像我们一样 |
| 147 | seeing today, there's a huge share of the public in Ukraine, people who are prepared | 今天,乌克兰公众中 有很多人准备 |
| 148 | to take to the streets and they're not mincing their words, criticizing some or President | 走上街头,他们不会说脏话 批评某些人或总统 |
| 149 | Zelensky's decisions. | 泽连斯基的决定. |
| 150 | So these people, activists, volunteers who've been helping the army, young | 所以这些人,活动家,志愿者 谁一直在帮助军队,年轻 |
| 151 | people especially, they tend to see Volodymyr Zelensky as somebody they have to put up with, | 特别是人们 他们倾向于把沃洛迪米尔·泽伦斯基 视为他们必须忍受的人 |
| 152 | somehow get along with, work with, because they've got nobody else. | 不知何故相处融洽,工作, 因为他们没有别人。 |
| 153 | And let's face it, | 让我们面对它, |
| 154 | he's been doing a reasonably good job leading Ukraine through this extraordinarily difficult | 他一直做一个相当好的工作 领导乌克兰度过了这个非常困难的时期 |
| 155 | time. | 时间。 |
| 156 | So replacing him right now, well, I'm not sure many Ukrainians would want to do | 所以,现在替代他,嗯,我不确定 许多乌克兰人会想做 |
| 157 | that. | 那个 |
| 158 | And the opinion polls that I've seen suggest that most Ukrainians, whether they | 我所看到的民意测验 表明大多数乌克兰人,不管他们 |
| 159 | like Zelensky or not, they're saying now is not a time to hold elections. | 和泽连斯基一样,他们说现在不是举行选举的时候。 |
| 160 | And of course, | 当然 |
| 161 | Ukrainian law says you cannot hold elections at a time of war. | 乌克兰法律规定,你不能在战争时期举行选举。 |
| 162 | Can you tell us more about that? | 你能告诉我们更多吗? |
| 163 | Why have elections been on hold for so long? | 为什么选举被搁置了这么久? |
| 164 | Well, this is what Ukrainian law has said for years. | 这就是乌克兰法律多年来所说的话。 |
| 165 | It was passed well before the Russian | 早在俄国人之前就已经通过了 |
| 166 | invasion. | 入侵 |
| 167 | It wasn't that Russia invaded and Ukraine scrapped elections. | 并不是俄国入侵,乌克兰废除了选举. |
| 168 | No, it was always | 不,它总是 |
| 169 | clear that under Ukrainian laws, you cannot hold elections. | 显然,根据乌克兰法律,你不能举行选举。 |
| 170 | Why? | 为什么? |
| 171 | One big reason is that | 一个大原因就是 |
| 172 | Russia will most definitely try and manipulate these elections. | 俄罗斯肯定会试图操纵这些选举。 |
| 173 | And Russia has been so skilled | 和俄罗斯一直如此熟练 |
| 174 | in doing that for decades in parts of the former Soviet Union and beyond. | 几十年来,在前苏联部分地区和其他地区都这样做。 |
| 175 | Secondly, there are the practicalities of holding an election under fire, under bombs, | 第二,在炮火下,在炸弹下举行选举是切合实际的, |
| 176 | in trenches. | 在战壕里。 |
| 177 | How do you take ballot boxes to the front line? | 你怎么把票箱带到前线? |
| 178 | What about the millions | 几百万怎么样? |
| 179 | of Ukrainian refugees scattered around the globe? | 乌克兰难民分散在全球各地? |
| 180 | Ukraine, quite simply, does not have a record | 简而言之,乌克兰没有记录 |
| 181 | of where they are, where they live, and how are they going to vote. | 他们在哪里,他们住在哪里, 他们将如何投票。 |
| 182 | That's another practicality | 这是另一个实用性 |
| 183 | that makes the whole idea of holding an election right now really, really impracticable. | 这使得现在举行选举的整个想法 非常不可行 |
| 184 | Vitaly, when elections do come, can Volodymyr Zelensky's political career survive beyond this war? | 维塔利,当选举到来时,沃洛迪米尔·泽连斯基的政治生涯能否在这场战争之后存活下来? |
| 185 | I think that's a possibility, given how well he's been doing so far. | 我认为这是可能的, 鉴于他一直以来都做得多么好。 |
| 186 | He is a bit of a | 他有点像 |
| 187 | Churchillian figure in Ukraine and across the world. | 乌克兰乃至全球的丘吉尔人物. |
| 188 | So should he decide to run again, | 所以他应该决定再跑一次 |
| 189 | I think he stands a reasonably good chance. | 我觉得他的机会相当大 |
| 190 | Whether he would want to do that after all the enormous | 他是否愿意这样做 毕竟,巨大的 |
| 191 | pressure, I'm not sure. | 压力,我不确定。 |
| 192 | He's complained on numerous occasions about not being able to see his | 他曾多次抱怨他无法见到 |
| 193 | family, about how difficult this job is. | 家庭,关于这个工作有多难。 |
| 194 | This is probably the most difficult and dangerous job | 这可能是最困难和最危险的工作 |
| 195 | in the world right now. | 现在的世界。 |
| 196 | And he's been doing it for years and years and years. | 且年年岁年岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁岁 |
| 197 | But we are so | 但我们是如此 |
| 198 | far away from the moment when Ukraine would be able to take a step back and start thinking in | 远离乌克兰能够退一步开始思考的时刻 |
| 199 | normal political terms. | 正常的政治条件 |
| 200 | Parties, elections, leaders campaigning. | 政党,选举,领袖竞选. |
| 201 | At the moment, this is about | 现在,这是关于 |
| 202 | survival. | 活下来 |
| 203 | And changes horses at a time like this, Ukrainians say, is so inadvisable. | 乌克兰人说,在这样的时候换马太不明智了。 |
| 204 | They don't | 他们不会 |
| 205 | even think about it. | 甚至考虑一下 |
| 206 | However, if they think that their president makes a mistake, they are prepared | 但是,如果他们认为他们的总统犯了错误, 他们准备 |
| 207 | to take the streets. | 走上街头。 |
| 208 | And speaking today about these protests against the removal of the defense | 今天我们来谈谈反对撤换辩方的抗议 |
| 209 | minister, Volodymyr Zelensky said that, well, we are fighting for freedom of speech, freedom of | 沃洛迪米尔·泽连斯基部长说,我们正在争取言论自由和言论自由。 |
| 210 | expression, democracy. | 表达、民主。 |
| 211 | So yeah, they are doing the right thing, protesting. | 所以,他们做的是正确的,抗议。 |
| 212 | So in a way, what's | 所以在某种程度上,什么是 |
| 213 | been going on kind of shows why his president, what he's fighting for, even though these people | 尽管这些人... |
| 214 | are really critical against them. | 对他们来说非常关键 |
| 215 | Some of the posters I've seen, oh my God, they're unprintable | 我见过的一些海报,哦,我的上帝, 是无法打印的 |
| 216 | and unbroadcastable. | 和不可广播。 |
| 217 | Thank you, Vitaly. | 谢谢你,维塔利。 |
| 218 | The BBC's Vitaly Shevchenko. | BBC的维塔利·谢夫琴科. |
| 219 | And if you'd like to hear more from the Global | 如果你想听更多 从全球 |
| 220 | News podcast, click the link below. | 新闻播客,点击下面的链接. |
| 221 | Thanks for watching. | 谢谢你的观看。 |
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