7-29 美国民主党人正在倒向反对以色列吗？ | BBC全球
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:00 | Welcome to the Global News Podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎收看英国广播公司的全球新闻节目 |
| 0:03 | Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. | 你好 我是奥利弗·康威 |
| 0:05 | And today we're joined by our correspondent, Bernd de Bozman, in Washington. | 今天我们的记者贝恩德·德·博兹曼在华盛顿也加入了我们。 |
| 0:09 | And, Bernd, | 还有,贝恩德, |
| 0:09 | we're talking to you today because the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is in town | 因为以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡在城里 |
| 0:15 | at a time when relations are strained. | 在关系紧张的时候 |
| 0:19 | How would you characterize the current state of the | 您将如何描述当前 |
| 0:22 | relationship between the U.S. and Israel? | 美国和以色列之间的关系? |
| 0:25 | Well, even though President Trump is very quick to | 虽然特朗普总统很快 |
| 0:28 | say that he's Israel's best friend that they've ever had in Washington, it's quite clear that | 说他是以色列最好的朋友 他们曾经有过在华盛顿, 很明显, |
展开字幕全文（148 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Welcome to the Global News Podcast from the BBC. | 欢迎收看英国广播公司的全球新闻节目 |
| 2 | Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. | 你好 我是奥利弗·康威 |
| 3 | And today we're joined by our correspondent, Bernd de Bozman, in Washington. | 今天我们的记者贝恩德·德·博兹曼在华盛顿也加入了我们。 |
| 4 | And, Bernd, | 还有,贝恩德, |
| 5 | we're talking to you today because the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is in town | 因为以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡在城里 |
| 6 | at a time when relations are strained. | 在关系紧张的时候 |
| 7 | How would you characterize the current state of the | 您将如何描述当前 |
| 8 | relationship between the U.S. and Israel? | 美国和以色列之间的关系? |
| 9 | Well, even though President Trump is very quick to | 虽然特朗普总统很快 |
| 10 | say that he's Israel's best friend that they've ever had in Washington, it's quite clear that | 说他是以色列最好的朋友 他们曾经有过在华盛顿, 很明显, |
| 11 | that relationship's come increasingly under strain. | 关系越来越紧张 |
| 12 | In particular, because of the conflict in Iran, | 特别是,由于伊朗的冲突, |
| 13 | it's no longer clear that the U.S. and Israel are on the same page. | 美以双方的战况不再明确. |
| 14 | There's been quite a lot | 已经有很多了 |
| 15 | of concern even from other Republicans about the perception that there wasn't any daylight | 连其他共和党人也担心 认为没有阳光 |
| 16 | between Trump and Netanyahu. | 特朗普和内塔尼亚胡之间 |
| 17 | Some, including in President Trump's base, have increasingly | 有些人,包括特朗普总统的基地,已经越来越 |
| 18 | been under the impression that Israel dragged the U.S. into this war, which was never very popular | 给人的印象是,以色列将美国拖入了这场战争,而这场战争从未受到人们的欢迎。 |
| 19 | with Americans. | 与美国人。 |
| 20 | So it is also politically expedient for President Trump to kind of | 因此,特朗普总统在政治上也是权宜之计。 |
| 21 | present a little distance between him and Prime Minister Netanyahu. | 他和内塔尼亚胡总理之间有一段距离。 |
| 22 | But it's quite clear things | 但事情很明确 |
| 23 | are much more, perhaps, tense now than they were when Operation Epic Fury began back in February. | 也许现在比2月伊皮克·弗瑞行动开始时更加紧张。 |
| 24 | Now, some of the strongest criticism has actually come from the Democrats. | 现在,一些最强烈的批评实际上是来自民主党. |
| 25 | There was a recent vote | 最近进行了投票 |
| 26 | where more than a hundred of them in the House of Representatives voted to cut off aid to Israel. | 众议员中有100多人投票决定切断对以色列的援助。 |
| 27 | Now, that didn't pass, but just a few years ago, that kind of thing would have been unthinkable. | 现在,这并没有过去, 但仅仅几年前, 那种事情是不可思议的。 |
| 28 | What's going on? | 这是怎么回事? |
| 29 | Well, this is a kind of a shift in perceptions we started to see back in 2023 | 这是2023年我们开始看到的一种观念转变 |
| 30 | when the war in Gaza began. | 当加沙战争开始的时候 |
| 31 | Among many Democrats, there was a huge exasperation that President Biden | 许多民主党人中,有一个巨大的愤慨 拜登总统 |
| 32 | at the time didn't cut military aid to Israel in light of the civilian casualties that were | 当时没有削减对以色列的军事援助,因为当时平民的伤亡 |
| 33 | mounting very, very quickly in Gaza. | 在加沙迅速上升。 |
| 34 | And it's become something that's really become quite an | 成为了真正成为 |
| 35 | emotional and powerful issue for many voters, particularly many Democrats. | 对许多选民来说,尤其是许多民主党人来说,情感和强大的问题。 |
| 36 | And I think we're | 我认为我们 |
| 37 | starting to see that reflected by Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill, that they no longer | 开始看到民主立法者 在国会山的反映, 他们不再 |
| 38 | want to necessarily be seen as being a close ally to Israel or someone who's extending a helping | 想要成为以色列的亲密盟友 或伸出援手的人 |
| 39 | hand to Israel financially or militarily because of the war in Gaza and more recently because of | 由于加沙战争,以及最近由于 |
| 40 | the war in Iran. | 伊朗战争 |
| 41 | Many Democrats also share that view that Israel kind of helped convince President | 许多民主党人也同意这一观点,即以色列有助于说服总统。 |
| 42 | Trump to launch this war, which among Democrats is extremely unpopular. | 特朗普发动这场战争,在民主党人中极不受欢迎. |
| 43 | And I think now we're | 我觉得我们现在 |
| 44 | starting to see lawmakers for their own political future kind of turn their backs on Israel a bit, | 开始看到立法者为了自己的政治未来 有点背叛以色列 |
| 45 | and that's something we've seen increasingly since October of 2023. | 这是2023年10月以后我们所看到的 |
| 46 | Yeah, some top Democrats, including possible presidential contenders, California Governor | 是的,一些顶尖的民主党人, 包括可能的总统候选人,加州州长 |
| 47 | Gavin Newsom 参议员Cory Booker 说他们会拒绝支持以色列的游说 | |
| 48 | AIPAC集团. | |
| 49 | Now, for those who don't know, just tell us what AIPAC is and what do you make of that | 现在,对于那些不知道的人,只要告诉我们什么是AIPAC,你认为什么 |
| 50 | taken by those Democrats? | 被那些民主党人带走? |
| 51 | Well, AIPAC is essentially a lobbying organization that works to promote ties between the US and | 好吧,AIPAC本质上是一个游说组织,致力于促进美国和俄罗斯之间的联系。 |
| 52 | Israel, and it's something that's been enormously influential in the past. | 以色列,它是一个在过去有巨大影响力的东西。 |
| 53 | They throw quite a lot | 他们扔了很多 |
| 54 | of money around in elections for candidates that they see as being pro-Israel or someone who would | 他们认为是支持以色列的候选人 或愿意支持以色列的人 |
| 55 | help make Israel's case on Capitol Hill and to the White House. | 帮助以色列向国会山和白宫立案 |
| 56 | And that's something that's kind of | 这是一种 |
| 57 | been a fact of US politics for many, many decades. | 几十年来一直是美国政治的一个事实 |
| 58 | That started coming under much more scrutiny after | 这开始受到更多的审查 |
| 59 | the war in Gaza began as well, and some Democratic circles, particularly in the kind of far left of | 加沙战争也开始了,一些民主圈子,特别是极左的 |
| 60 | the party, it became kind of something of a black mark to be seen as taking money from an organization | 党,它变成了一种 黑色的标志 被视为从一个组织拿钱 |
| 61 | that is promoting Israeli interest in the United States. | 这正在促进以色列在美国的利益。 |
| 62 | I think now, as I mentioned, it's become | 我想,现在,正如我所提到的, 它变成了 |
| 63 | something that to many voters, particularly young voters, they don't like necessarily to see their | 对于许多选民,特别是年轻选民来说, 他们不一定喜欢看到自己的 |
| 64 | candidate having any sort of campaign contribution that they see that they would then have to do | 候选人有任何种类的竞选贡献 他们认为他们 将不得不这样做 |
| 65 | something for with regards to Israel. | 对于以色列。 |
| 66 | Of course, AIPAC has pushed back strongly on all these | 当然,AIPAC在所有这些方面都大力推后了 |
| 67 | suggestions that it's somehow an extension of Israel's government, but that idea has been out | 说这是以色列政府的延伸 但这个想法已经不存在了 |
| 68 | there. | 这里 |
| 69 | And I think especially once images of the war in Gaza started coming out, it's something that | 我认为,尤其是一旦加沙战争的画面出现, |
| 70 | voters began to scrutinize a little more. | 选民们开始仔细检查一下 |
| 71 | And many lawmakers are keenly aware of that and don't | 许多立法者都非常清楚这一点,不要 |
| 72 | necessarily want that perception around them, particularly going into any sort of midterm or election season. | 特别是进入任何中期或选举季节。 |
| 73 | You mentioned younger voters. | 你提到年轻选民。 |
| 74 | Is this a generational shift? | 这是代代相传吗? |
| 75 | Because we saw a very different attitude from | 因为我们看到一个非常不同的态度与 |
| 76 | the then president, Joe Biden, after Israel was attacked back on the 7th of October. | 当时的总统乔·拜登 在以色列于10月7日被袭击后 |
| 77 | Well, polls show very clearly that there is a huge generational shift in perceptions about Israel. | 民意调查非常清楚地表明, 对以色列的看法有巨大的世代转变。 |
| 78 | Many older Americans are more likely to view Israel favorably and view U.S. contributions to | 许多年长的美国人更可能偏袒以色列,并看待美国对以色列的贡献。 |
| 79 | Israel, whether financially or militarily, as a good thing, whereas younger voters skew very | 以色列,无论是在财政上还是在军事上,都是一件好事,而年轻的选民则非常摇摆。 |
| 80 | much the other way. | 另一条路 |
| 81 | The last poll I saw in that regard, there was a 20-point difference between | 我所看到的上一个民意调查, 与此有20点的区别 |
| 82 | and older voters about whether or not they view Israel positively. | 以及年长的选民,他们是否积极看待以色列。 |
| 83 | And that's something that I think, | 我认为, |
| 84 | especially the younger edge of voters, voters that have come of age in the last several years or perhaps | 特别是年轻选民的边缘,在过去几年或也许 |
| 85 | just before they turned 18 and could vote were presented with the images of what was happening | 就在他们18岁之前,他们可以投票时, 展示了正在发生的事情 |
| 86 | in Gaza. | 加沙 |
| 87 | Those are voters that are very strongly against Israel's government. | 这些选民强烈反对以色列政府。 |
| 88 | Now you're seeing | 现在你看到了 |
| 89 | younger candidates as well. | 年轻候选人也是如此。 |
| 90 | I think Zoran Mamdani in New York is a great example who | 我认为纽约的Zoran Mamdani是一个很好的例子 |
| 91 | represents to many people that worldview that Israel is not necessarily America's friend. | 对许多人来说,世界认为以色列不一定是美国的朋友。 |
| 92 | So I think that really does present a very long-term challenge to Israel because it's | 因此,我认为这确实对以色列提出了非常长期的挑战,因为它 |
| 93 | no longer clear that that support that has been ironclad for decades, really since Israel's | 不再明确,这种支持自以色列建国以来已经存在数十年了。 |
| 94 | inception, that won't necessarily be the case in the next few years. | 开始,这在接下来的几年里不一定是。 |
| 95 | And I think that really | 我觉得真的 |
| 96 | has changed the dynamic of the U.S.-Israeli relationship as it's seen here in Washington. | 改变了美以关系在华盛顿的动态 |
| 97 | Now there was some suggestion during the last presidential election that the Gaza issue had | 现在在上届总统选举中有人提出加沙问题 |
| 98 | an impact, at least in the state of Michigan. | 至少在密歇根州有影响 |
| 99 | Could Israel-U.S. relations affect upcoming | 以色列和美国的关系是否会影响即将到来 |
| 100 | elections, the midterm and then the next presidential election? | 选举、中期选举,然后是下一次总统选举? |
| 101 | Well, both yes and no. | 嗯,是和不是。 |
| 102 | Polls show that when it comes to Americans headed to the ballot box to | 民意调查显示,当美国人走向投票箱时, |
| 103 | vote, foreign policy really isn't the top thing on their minds. | 投票,外交政策真的不是他们心中最重要的 |
| 104 | They're much more concerned with | 他们更关心 |
| 105 | the economy and their daily finances. | 经济及其日常财政。 |
| 106 | I think, for example, in the upcoming midterms, one issue | 例如,我认为在即将到来的中期,有一个问题 |
| 107 | that many Americans will have number one in their minds is the issue of rising petrol prices because | 许多美国人的心目中头号人物 是汽油价格上涨的问题 因为 |
| 108 | of the war in Iran. | 伊朗战争 |
| 109 | That, of course, in the minds of many is something that's tied to Israel and | 当然,在许多人的心目中,这是与以色列和 |
| 110 | that perception that I've mentioned of Israel kind of dragging the U.S. into this war. | 我提到的以色列 将美国拖入这场战争 |
| 111 | At the | 在那个 |
| 112 | same time, there are younger voters for which this is perhaps the biggest foreign policy issue. | 与此同时,有些年轻选民认为这也许是最大的外交政策问题。 |
| 113 | And I think in combination, it really could be a factor, certainly in the upcoming midterms, | 我认为,结合, 它确实是一个因素, 肯定在未来的中期, |
| 114 | this is all still very fresh in everyone's mind. | 这在每个人的脑海中都还是很新鲜的 |
| 115 | But U.S. ties with Israel is something that comes | 但美国与以色列的关系是必然的 |
| 116 | up in presidential debates every four years. | 每四年举行一次总统辩论。 |
| 117 | And I suspect given the events of the last few years, | 我怀疑过去几年的事件 |
| 118 | it'll very much play a prominent role in the foreign policy discussions once Americans had | 在美国有后,它将在外交政策讨论中发挥显著作用。 |
| 119 | to elect a new president, even if it's still kind of somewhat far behind the economy in terms of | 选出一位新总统 即使从经济角度来说 仍然有点落后 |
| 120 | what people are thinking about when they head to those polls. | 当人们去投票时,他们在想什么。 |
| 121 | Now, we talked about the Democrats. | 现在,我们谈论民主党。 |
| 122 | Is this also a difficult issue for some Republicans? | 对于一些共和党人来说,这也是一个困难的问题吗? |
| 123 | Certainly we've seen some | 当然我们见过一些 |
| 124 | debates in the right-wing podosphere, as it were. | 在右翼的球场上展开辩论,就像现在这样。 |
| 125 | Indeed. | 没错 |
| 126 | And I think particularly within that core Make America Great Again MAGA base of President | 我特别认为,在这个核心 使美国再次伟大 MAGA基础总统 |
| 127 | Trump, there is much more split opinion about Israel than was the case in the past. | 与过去相比, |
| 128 | Earlier in | 早些时候 |
| 129 | this administration just a few months ago, we saw the head of the National Counterterrorism Center, | 几个月前,我们见到国家反恐中心负责人 |
| 130 | Joe Kent, who was something of a MAGA darling. | 乔・肯特,他是一个MAGA亲爱的东西。 |
| 131 | He resigned from his position because in his view, | 他辞职是因为他认为 |
| 132 | Israel tricked the United States into joining this conflict. | 以色列欺骗美国加入这场冲突。 |
| 133 | And I think that's a perception | 我认为这是一种感觉 |
| 134 | that's now shared among some of the more conservative members of the MAGA base. | 这在MAGA基地的一些比较保守的成员中是共享的. |
| 135 | There's also many people within that MAGA base that are against foreign aid and military aid and | MAGA基地内还有很多人反对外援和军援 |
| 136 | money overseas and weapons overseas full stop, including to Israel. | 海外的钱和海外的武器完全停止,包括前往以色列。 |
| 137 | And Israel is the largest | 而以色列是最大的 |
| 138 | recipient of U.S. military aid. | 获得美国军事援助。 |
| 139 | So I think there is very much a split between that MAGA base and | 所以我觉得MAGA基地和 |
| 140 | Republicans such as the late Lindsey Graham, who was really an outspoken supporter of Israel and | 共和党人,如已故的林西·格雷厄姆, 他确实是一个直言不讳的支持者 以色列和 |
| 141 | someone who was seen as very close to Israel on Capitol Hill. | 在Capitol Hill被看成与以色列非常亲近的人 |
| 142 | There's a very visible split | 有一个非常明显的分裂 |
| 143 | within Republicans over Israel. | 共和党内部的以色列。 |
| 144 | Bernd 谢谢你 | |
| 145 | Bernd de Bozman there in Washington. | 贝恩德·德·博兹曼在华盛顿 |
| 146 | If you'd like | 如果你愿意的话 |
| 147 | to hear more from the Global News Podcast, click the link below. | 请点击下面的链接。 |
| 148 | Thanks for watching. | 谢谢你的观看。 |
该视频共有字幕 148 条。解锁更多字幕为会员功能，请移动到 价格