【牛津辩论】希望地狱存在？ 20260811
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:02 | There are no gods amongst us, but there are demons, for the rivers of civilization run | 我们之间没有神,但是有恶魔, 因为文明的河流运行 |
| 0:08 | red with the blood of the innocent, while the wheel of history spins with the ignorance | 红色与无辜者之血, 而历史之轮旋转与无知 |
| 0:12 | of the privileged. | 特权。 |
| 0:13 | And there is a sickness on this earth, and for while we cry for justice, we are returned | 世上有病,虽然我们呼唤正义,却归来 |
| 0:17 | with the echo of the universe's ignorance, for every plague and every pestilence is born | 宇宙无知的回声 每一个瘟疫和瘟疫都诞生 |
| 0:22 | from the blood on our hands, watered by the showers of our indifference. | 我们手上的血 被冷漠的淋浴所浇水 |
| 0:26 | We pray for a day that justice is served, where we might see the callous crushed and | 我们祈祷有一天正义得到伸张 在那里我们可能会看到冷酷无情的粉碎 |
| 0:31 | asked, where were your tears when you slaughtered the innocent? | 问:你屠杀无辜者时,眼泪在哪里? |
| 0:34 | Where were your pleas when you stole from those who had nothing? | 你从一无所有的人那里偷东西时 你的请求在哪里? |
| 0:37 | And where were your cries when I heard the cries of the tortured? | 当我听到被折磨者的哭声时 你的哭声在哪里? |
展开字幕全文（1366 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | There are no gods amongst us, but there are demons, for the rivers of civilization run | 我们之间没有神,但是有恶魔, 因为文明的河流运行 |
| 2 | red with the blood of the innocent, while the wheel of history spins with the ignorance | 红色与无辜者之血, 而历史之轮旋转与无知 |
| 3 | of the privileged. | 特权。 |
| 4 | And there is a sickness on this earth, and for while we cry for justice, we are returned | 世上有病,虽然我们呼唤正义,却归来 |
| 5 | with the echo of the universe's ignorance, for every plague and every pestilence is born | 宇宙无知的回声 每一个瘟疫和瘟疫都诞生 |
| 6 | from the blood on our hands, watered by the showers of our indifference. | 我们手上的血 被冷漠的淋浴所浇水 |
| 7 | We pray for a day that justice is served, where we might see the callous crushed and | 我们祈祷有一天正义得到伸张 在那里我们可能会看到冷酷无情的粉碎 |
| 8 | asked, where were your tears when you slaughtered the innocent? | 问:你屠杀无辜者时,眼泪在哪里? |
| 9 | Where were your pleas when you stole from those who had nothing? | 你从一无所有的人那里偷东西时 你的请求在哪里? |
| 10 | And where were your cries when I heard the cries of the tortured? | 当我听到被折磨者的哭声时 你的哭声在哪里? |
| 11 | So while I pray that none of you end up in it, I pray for a hell to bring heaven to the | 所以,当我祈祷你们中没有人会死的时候, 我祈祷你们能把天堂带入地狱。 |
| 12 | voiceless. | 无声无声. |
| 13 | Now I have a lot to say, but it falls to me to introduce the speakers on the opposition. | 现在,我有很多话要说,但我要向大家介绍反对派的发言者。 |
| 14 | Speaking first is Todd Stiefel, the founder and president of the Stiefel Free Thought | 先是Todd Stiefel 自由思想创始人兼主席 |
| 15 | 基金会和 Heretical Reason Production总裁. | |
| 16 | He has extensively criticised the influence of religion on public life in America. | 他广泛批评宗教对美国公共生活的影响. |
| 17 | And this would make sense, as the former chief of strategy at Stiefel Laboratories, he would | 作为史蒂菲尔实验室的前战略主管 他将会 |
| 18 | know a thing or two about having an overbearing family in his life. | 他一生中只懂得过一个高贵的家庭 |
| 19 | It might be for that reason that he takes refuge on Reddit, where if you look up, and | 这可能是出于这个原因 他躲在Reddit上, 如果你抬头, |
| 20 | I swear this is true, he hasn't asked me anything. | 我发誓这是真的 他什么也没问我 |
| 21 | So let's take this as an invitation to ask him as many points of information as possible. | 所以,让我们把这当作一个邀请 问他尽可能多的点信息。 |
| 22 | Speaking second is Dr Michael Shermer, I have been a huge fan since I was 12, a science | 第二位是Michael Shermer博士 我从12岁起就一直很爱学 |
| 23 | writer, historian of science and executive director of the Skeptic Society and the founding | 作家、科学史学家、怀疑论学会执行主任和创始人 |
| 24 | publisher of Skeptic Magazine. | 《怀疑论杂志》的出版商 |
| 25 | Dr Shermer is an old friend of the Union, this is his second time debating in the chamber | 谢尔默博士是联盟的老朋友 这是他第二次在会议厅辩论 |
| 26 | and we'll be sure to invite him again if Professor Richard Dawkins turns us down a third time. | 如果理查德·道金斯教授第三次拒绝我们 我们一定会再邀请他 |
| 27 | Speaking last is Satish Kumar, he is the founder and director of programs of the Schumacher | 最后一位是Satish Kumar 他是舒马赫乐队的创始人和导演 |
| 28 | College International Center for Ecological Studies and is editor emeritus of Resurgence | 学院国际生态研究中心和《复兴荣誉》编辑 |
| 29 | and Ecologist Magazine. | 还有生态学家杂志 |
| 30 | However, his most notable work is in his constant fight for the environment and nuclear disarmament. | 然而,他最引人注目的工作是不断争取环境和核裁军。 |
| 31 | In June 1962, he completed a peace walk of over 8,000 miles for two and a half years | 1962年6月,他完成了八千多里远的和平行走,历时两年半. |
| 32 | from New Delhi to Moscow, Paris, London and Washington DC. | 从新德里到莫斯科,巴黎,伦敦和华盛顿特区. |
| 33 | And if I'm being frank, in spite of my copious research, I could not find anything to crack | 如果我坦白说,尽管我做了大量研究, 我找不到什么可以破解的 |
| 34 | a joke about. | 一个笑话。 |
| 35 | I must say, however, that I'm disappointed that his trekking days are behind him. | 然而,我必须说,我感到失望的是,他的旅程已经过去了。 |
| 36 | A little birdie told me he took the train into Oxford today. | 一只小鸟告诉我他今天把火车开进牛津 |
| 37 | Jokes aside, we are honored to have these distinguished guests with us today. | 开个玩笑 我们很荣幸今天能请到这些贵宾 |
| 38 | Madam President, these are your guests and they are most welcome. | 主席女士,这是你的客人,非常欢迎。 |
| 39 | Now, it is a tradition of the Union that before every debate, the guests dine under the hospitality | 现在,这是联盟的传统 每次辩论前, 客人在招待下吃饭 |
| 40 | of the President. | 临时代办 |
| 41 | Well, if you discount the last five minutes. | 好吧,如果你打折扣的最后五分钟。 |
| 42 | There's something very richly human about that, it's that to connect with others we | 这里面有很丰富的人性, 就是和别人联系,我们 |
| 43 | must first make ourselves vulnerable to one another. | 必须首先使我们彼此变得脆弱。 |
| 44 | But what happens when our vulnerability is weaponized against us? | 但是,当我们的脆弱性被武器化对付我们时会发生什么? |
| 45 | On the 15th of April 1994, during the Rwandan Genocide, 20,000 Tutsis were offered refuge | 1994年4月15日卢旺达种族灭绝期间,2万图西族人获得庇护。 |
| 46 | in the Urabuye Catholic Church. | 在乌拉布耶天主教会。 |
| 47 | They thought they were safe from the bloodshed that had spread across Rwanda. | 他们认为,他们能够避免卢旺达各地发生的流血事件。 |
| 48 | Instead, they were lured into a trap. | 相反,他们被诱骗到一个陷阱。 |
| 49 | That very night, armed men descended on the church and committed atrocities which even | 当天晚上,武装人员下到教堂,犯下暴行,甚至 |
| 50 | the darkest parts of our imagination would fail to conjure. | 我们想象中最黑暗的部分无法想象 |
| 51 | Women were raped by sharp wooden sticks, pregnant mothers had their stomachs cut open and their | 妇女被尖锐的木棍强奸,孕妇的胃被割开,而且, |
| 52 | babies thrown against walls. | 婴儿扔在墙上。 |
| 53 | And of the 20,000 that sought refuge in the church, only 18 survived. | 而在教会寻求避难的2万人中,只有18人幸存下来. |
| 54 | Buried in the bodies that day were three tragedies of the human condition that I will speak on. | 那天埋葬在尸体里,是我将谈论的人类状况的三个悲剧。 |
| 55 | First, I'll talk about injustice. | 首先,我会谈论不公正。 |
| 56 | Second, I'll talk about ineffectiveness. | 其次,我会谈论无效。 |
| 57 | And lastly, I'll talk about incompletion. | 最后,我会谈论完成。 |
| 58 | But before that, let's bring some clarity into the debate. | 但在此之前,让我们在辩论中讲清楚。 |
| 59 | One, when we speak of hell, we speak on the proposition not to defend a particular religious | 一,当我们谈论地狱时,我们谈论不捍卫某一宗教的主张 |
| 60 | conception of hell. | 地狱的概念。 |
| 61 | All these versions of hell contradict with each other all the time and frankly, we don't | 所有这些版本的地狱 总是相互矛盾 坦率地说,我们不 |
| 62 | have the time to defend each one of them. | 有时间替他们每个人辩护 |
| 63 | Instead, we will be fair and we will pin ourselves to a particular version of hell, extracting | 相反,我们将是公平的,我们将陷入 特定版本的地狱,提取 |
| 64 | from various religions the key features of it. | 来自不同宗教的宗教, |
| 65 | And this is what happens after death where we experience the consequences for actions | 这就是死后发生的事情 我们体验到行动的后果 |
| 66 | in our lives. | 我们的生活。 |
| 67 | We will rely heavily on its existence as a place for proportionate and fitting punishment, | 我们将严重依赖它作为适当惩罚场所的存在, |
| 68 | but that, we believe, is not necessarily inherent to it. | 但我们认为,这并不一定是它固有的。 |
| 69 | We will prove that in our arguments. | 我们将在我们的论点中证明这一点。 |
| 70 | This means that a vote for the proposition does not have to be a vote in support of an | 这意味着对该提案的表决不必是支持一项提案的表决。 |
| 71 | eternal hell. | 永恒的地狱。 |
| 72 | Famously, some readings of, for example, St. Gregory of Nyssa saw hell as a rehabilitative | 以尼萨的圣格雷戈里为例 将地狱视为一种康复 |
| 73 | place where our souls are restored to their intended glory. | 在那里,我们的灵魂 被恢复到他们想要的荣耀。 |
| 74 | It would be instructive at this point to expel from our minds visions of hell that we get | 此时此刻,将我们所看到的地狱从我们的脑海中驱逐出去将具有启发意义。 |
| 75 | from Dante's Inferno, the great pit of fire with Satan at the helm. | 从但丁的地狱, 大火坑与撒旦掌舵。 |
| 76 | It's a good book, but I would implore the opposition not to spoil it for the rest of | 这是本好书 但我恳求反对派不要破坏它 |
| 77 | us. | 我们 |
| 78 | They still need to explain why the conception of hell that they are opposing is the one | 他们仍需要解释为什么 他们反对的地狱概念是 |
| 79 | that is likely to manifest. | 这很可能是显而易见的。 |
| 80 | With that said, we will prove this with our argument. | 因此,我们将用我们的论点来证明这一点。 |
| 81 | Tragedy number one, injustice. | 悲剧第一,不公正。 |
| 82 | Now there exists in this world great injustice. | 这个世界现在存在着极大的不公正。 |
| 83 | Atrocity that infects the mind strips us of the right to call ourselves human. | 影响心灵的暴行剥夺了我们自称人类的权利。 |
| 84 | The question then is what should we do when we are faced with this injustice? | 那么,问题是,当我们面对这种不公正现象时,我们该怎么办? |
| 85 | And I want to ask first, what kind of crimes befit hell? | 我想先问一下 什么样的罪行是适合地狱的? |
| 86 | I think it's instructive to consider the crime of slavery. | 我认为考虑奴隶制的罪行是很有启发性的. |
| 87 | When you enslave another person, you destroy any vestige of dignity of that person and | 当你奴役另一个人时,你破坏了他尊严的任何残余, |
| 88 | you turn their life into an instrument of your own pleasure, and they lose then the | 你把他们的生活 变成你乐于享受的工具 然后他们失去了 |
| 89 | ability to chart their course which we think inheres with the human spirit. | 能够规划出我们所认为的 与人类精神相同的方向 |
| 90 | So what then is the value of punishment? | 那么惩罚的价值是什么? |
| 91 | We say on proposition that the value of punishment goes beyond simple societal benefit. | 我们提出,惩罚的价值超出了简单的社会福利。 |
| 92 | No, simple societal benefit. | 不,简单的社会福利。 |
| 93 | Instead, punishment serves the purpose of restoring the dignity of the wronged. | 相反,惩罚是为了恢复受伤害者的尊严。 |
| 94 | And if our personalities are crafted by our histories and our punishment is a mark on | 如果我们的人格 由我们的历史 和我们的惩罚是标志 |
| 95 | our history, punishment is our way of saying that what you did against another conscious | 惩罚就是说 你对另一个有意识的 |
| 96 | being was so wrong, so heinous, that it must be marked onto you so that you might not just | 如此错误,如此令人发指, 它必须标记在你身上 这样你可能不只是 |
| 97 | but live the wrong that you have done. | 却活在你们所犯的错误中。 |
| 98 | And this is why prisoners from Auschwitz, for example, are incredibly willing to show | 这就是为什么奥斯维辛集中营的囚犯们 都非常愿意展示 |
| 99 | the rest of us their tattoos. | 我们其他人的纹身。 |
| 100 | So opposition might ask, how can an infinite punishment ever befit a finite crime? | 所以反对者可能会问,无限惩罚如何能与有限的罪行相称? |
| 101 | To which I must ask in response, what precisely is the finite value of a human life? | 对此,我必须问,人的生命的有限价值是什么? |
| 102 | Would you be willing to pay a price for it? | 你愿意为此付出代价吗? |
| 103 | And how much good can a person do to wash the sin of a genocide or a murder? | 一个人能做多少好事来洗刷种族灭绝或谋杀的罪恶? |
| 104 | What are we willing to sacrifice on the altar of finitude? | 我们愿意牺牲什么? |
| 105 | But therein lies the rub. | 但里面有擦伤。 |
| 106 | For on the road to justice, humanity often finds that it's created the conditions for | 在通往正义的道路上,人类经常发现它创造了条件, |
| 107 | its own demise. | 它的灭亡。 |
| 108 | This is where I bring in the second tragedy, ineffectiveness. | 这是我带来第二次悲剧的地方,无效。 |
| 109 | Human justice systems are frail, under-resourced and often find themselves deeply unjust. | 人类司法制度脆弱、资源不足,往往发现自己极不公正。 |
| 110 | And so instead, we restrain ourselves. | 因此,我们约束自己。 |
| 111 | We let murderers walk with insufficient evidence. | 我们让杀人犯在证据不足的情况下行走。 |
| 112 | We let genocidal maniacs free to keep the post-conflict peace. | 我们让种族灭绝的疯子自由地维持冲突后的和平。 |
| 113 | And to save our own humanity, we drown out the cries of the desperate. | 为了拯救我们自己的人性,我们淹没了绝望者的呼声。 |
| 114 | And that is why we hope for justice in the afterlife. | 这就是为什么我们希望在来世伸张正义。 |
| 115 | One that has all the facts, that knows our wrongs and judges us accordingly. | 一个拥有所有事实,知道我们的错误并据此评判我们的人。 |
| 116 | Now at this point, opposition might ask, how can you be so sure that divine justice is | 此时此刻,反对者可能会问,你怎么能如此确定,神圣的正义是 |
| 117 | just? | 刚刚? |
| 118 | And I'll be frank, the short answer is I can't tell you that. | 老实说,我无法告诉你 |
| 119 | But consider for a second the following. | 但考虑一下如下。 |
| 120 | If a hell were to exist, the god or gods that created it would likely have access to more | 如果地狱存在,神 或神创造它 有可能接触更多 |
| 121 | knowledge about human beings than anyone else in this room. | 人类的知识比这间屋子里的任何人都多 |
| 122 | This isn't a theological argument. | 这不是神学争论 |
| 123 | It simply follows from the characteristics of its likely creator. | 它只是源于其可能的创造者的特点。 |
| 124 | And if we believe that moral claims are truth claims, and knowledge allows us to derive | 如果我们相信道德诉求是真理诉求, 知识让我们从 |
| 125 | the truth, this is a being that would have had more time to consider the ramifications | 真相是,如果是这样的话,将会有更多的时间来考虑后果。 |
| 126 | and alternative perspectives of punishment than any one human being. | 以及惩罚的另类观点。 |
| 127 | Funnily enough, this means that every argument that opposition tells you for why a particular | 有趣的是,这意味着 每一个反对意见 告诉你为什么一个特定的 |
| 128 | version of hell is unjust is simply a reason why such a powerful being would not create | 地狱是不公正的 只是为什么这样一个强者不会创造 |
| 129 | such a hell. | 这么地狱。 |
| 130 | Now you might hear an objection to this claim. | 现在你可能会听到有人反对这一要求。 |
| 131 | Isn't morality not truth-based? | 道德不是基于真理吗? |
| 132 | Well then, if that is true, there should be no one left on the opposition to vote for | 那么,如果这是真的, 不应该有人 留在反对派投票支持 |
| 133 | them by the end of this debate. | 在本次辩论结束之前, |
| 134 | Because there is nothing that opposition can then say to you to convince you that isn't | 因为没有任何反对者能对你说 说服你不是 |
| 135 | simply emotional manipulation or a mental gymnastic. | 只是感情操控或精神健身 |
| 136 | Third tragedy, incompleteness. | 第三次悲剧,不完整。 |
| 137 | Each one of us lives with the burden of needing others, for no man is an island. | 我们每个人都有需要别人的负担,因为没有人是一座岛屿。 |
| 138 | If the household indulged me, this is a slightly more personal take on hell, but I think it | 如果家里人放我鸽子,这比地狱更私人化,但我想 |
| 139 | is nonetheless just as important. | 然而,同样重要的是。 |
| 140 | In the Brothers Karamazov, Ivan tells the story of the time when Christ returned to | 在"卡拉马佐夫兄弟会"中,伊万讲述了基督回到了 |
| 141 | earth at the height of the Spanish Inquisition. | 西班牙宗教裁判所最高峰的大地 |
| 142 | As Christ is locked in his cell, the Grand Inquisitor enters and condemns Christ. | 随着基督被锁在牢房里,大宗教裁判所进入并谴责基督. |
| 143 | The Inquisitor says, and I quote, | 问讯员说,我引用 |
| 144 | Nothing has ever been more insupportable for a man and a human society than freedom. | 对人和人类社会最不支持的莫过于自由。 |
| 145 | Humans are cursed with our conscience. | 人类被我们的良心诅咒 |
| 146 | We watch every day as freedom collides with the very fabric of morality. | 我们每天都看自由 与道德结构相冲突 |
| 147 | And it is in that tension that the Inquisitor says, man prefers peace and even death to | 正是在这种紧张状态下,宗教裁判所说,人更喜欢和平,甚至死亡, |
| 148 | a freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil. | 善恶知识中的选择自由. |
| 149 | But we can't give up our freedom, not now and not ever, because it is the cry of a restless | 但我们不能放弃自由,不是现在,也不是永远, 因为这是一个不安的呼声 |
| 150 | heart that creates what we humans do best. | 创造我们人类最优秀的心 |
| 151 | We love. | 我们爱。 |
| 152 | For every time a person wrote something beautiful down, love was there. | 每次有人写些美丽的东西 爱就在那里 |
| 153 | Every time a person suffered with a smile on their face, love was there. | 每次一个人在脸上笑着受苦,爱就在那里. |
| 154 | And when we finally look back on the course of our lives, I hope that love will be there. | 而当我们终于回顾我们的生活过程时,我希望爱情将存在. |
| 155 | Our love is what binds us to our souls and to one another. | 我们的爱把我们与灵魂和彼此联系在一起。 |
| 156 | But therein lies the trap that the price we pay for a heart of love is the deeper capacity | 但其中就有一个陷阱 我们为爱心付出的代价 就是更深的能力 |
| 157 | for grief. | 为了悲伤 |
| 158 | Grief so deep that it hardens the very core of our souls and calcifies our conscience. | 悲伤的深处 使我们灵魂的核心变得坚固 也让我们的良心变得脆弱 |
| 159 | In the words of Father Zosima, hell is the suffering of no longer being able to love. | 用佐司马神父的话来说,地狱是不再能够爱的人的痛苦. |
| 160 | So we hope for hell, not so that anyone can experience it. | 因此,我们希望地狱,而不是让任何人能够体验它。 |
| 161 | But without the possibility of hell, we spurn for what makes us human for a chance to be | 但是没有下地狱的可能, 我们抛弃是什么让我们成为人类的机会 |
| 162 | no better than the pillars of salt in the wake of the flames that engulf the loveless | 在火焰吞没无爱人之后 盐的柱子也比不上 |
| 163 | in Sodom and Gomorrah. | 在索多玛和戈莫拉。 |
| 164 | Tragedy is the penance we pay for our loves. | 悲剧是我们为爱付出的代价。 |
| 165 | A love that is freely given, the quality of which will never be strained, that falls as | 自由给予的爱, 其质量永远不会紧张, 它会变成 |
| 166 | a gentle rain from the heavens of our hearts. | 温柔的雨 从我们心中的天堂。 |
| 167 | And so to this opposition, I leave you with the actions of Christ, a kiss, the final act | 因此,对于这个反对,我留给你 与基督的行为,一个吻,最后的行为 |
| 168 | of unrelenting love before the gates of hell are shut from the inside of the chamber. | 在地狱之门被关闭之前, |
| 169 | Now, many have said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. | 现在,许多人说,通往地狱的道路是用善意铺平的。 |
| 170 | And I cannot help but disagree. | 我不得不不同意你的观点 |
| 171 | The road to hell is paved with the corpses of the innocent, the tortured and the peacemaker. | 通往地狱的道路铺满了无辜者、遭受酷刑者和和平缔造者的尸体。 |
| 172 | For every sin stains not just our collective souls, but blackens the very existence of | 对于每一个罪恶的污点 不仅是我们的集体灵魂, 而且使存在变得黑暗 |
| 173 | humanity. | 人类 |
| 174 | And as you take the long march for justice and walk towards the doors at the end of the | 当你带着漫长的征程走向正义 走到门的尽头 |
| 175 | debate, I want you to think of the bell that would have rung before me if there was a bell | 辩论,我要你想想,如果有铃声, 铃声会响到我面前 |
| 176 | today. | 今时. |
| 177 | For the moral arch of the universe bends, but whether it bends towards justice is in | 因为宇宙的道德拱门弯曲 但是否向正义弯曲 |
| 178 | the hands of this house. | 这房子的手。 |
| 179 | And as the bell tolls, I pray that it never tolls for thee for all of these reasons for | 作为钟声的响起,我祈祷它不会因为所有这些原因对你造成损失。 |
| 180 | us. | 我们 |
| 181 | Next, I would like to invite our first speaker for side opposition, Mr. Todd Stifel. | 接下来,我要请第一位发言者托德·施蒂菲尔先生作侧面反对的发言。 |
| 182 | Madam President, members of the House, thank you for the opportunity to speak here today. | 主席女士,各位代表,感谢你们今天有机会在这里发言。 |
| 183 | This is truly one of the greatest honors of my life, and I very much appreciate it. | 这确实是我一生中最伟大的荣誉之一,我非常感谢. |
| 184 | I'd like to start with what this debate is not. | 首先我想谈一下这场辩论不是什么。 |
| 185 | We're not debating if hell is real. | 我们不是在辩论地狱是否真实 |
| 186 | We're not debating a hope or we are debating rather a hope or desire for hell, not a belief | 我们不是在辩论希望 也不是在辩论对地狱的希望或渴望 |
| 187 | in it. | 进去吧 |
| 188 | This proposition will try to twist this into a debate and if we should hope for justice, | 这个提议将试图把这个问题卷入一场辩论,如果我们希望正义得到伸张, |
| 189 | but that isn't the debate either. | 但这也不是辩论 |
| 190 | We all hope for justice. | 我们都希望正义。 |
| 191 | We're debating whether we want there to be a place where most of humanity is either tortured | 我们正在辩论我们是否想要一个 大部分人类要么遭受酷刑的地方 |
| 192 | forever or briefly burned into oblivion for a second death in the afterlife. | 永远或短暂的被遗忘 在来世的第二次死亡。 |
| 193 | Either way, a vote for the proposition is a vote for torture. | 无论哪种方式,对提案的投票就是对酷刑的投票. |
| 194 | Here is the scriptural reality. | 这是脚本现实。 |
| 195 | Matthew 25 says that Jesus speaks of an eternal fire, of an eternal punishment for the unrighteous. | 马太福音25号说,耶稣说的是永恒的火,是对不义者的永恒的惩罚. |
| 196 | In turn, it is described in Revelation 20, 14 to 15, quote, then death and Hades were | 反过来,《启示录》第20、14至15段对此作了描述。 |
| 197 | thrown into the lake of fire. | 扔进火湖 |
| 198 | The lake of fire is the second death anyone whose name was not found written in the book | 火湖是书上没有记载的第二个死亡 |
| 199 | of life was thrown into the lake of fire. | 生命被扔进火湖 |
| 200 | No, thank you. | 不 谢谢 |
| 201 | Many argue hell is mere separation from God. | 许多人争论地狱只是与上帝分离。 |
| 202 | They hope hell exists so that their heaven exists while ignoring what their own scripture | 他们希望地狱存在 让他们的天堂存在 却无视自己的经文 |
| 203 | says will happen to their non-Christian friends and neighbors. | 说会发生在他们的非基督教朋友和邻居身上 |
| 204 | The Bible is clear. | 圣经是清楚的。 |
| 205 | Hell is a lake of fire and it is not a metaphor for mere separation. | 地狱是火之湖,并非仅仅是分离的比喻。 |
| 206 | It is not a merciful annihilation. | 这不是仁慈的毁灭。 |
| 207 | Hell is a description of a place of ultimate suffering and ultimate injustice. | 地狱是描述一个终极苦难和终极不公正的地方。 |
| 208 | I will demonstrate that hell is not something that this house should hope exists, but first | 我将证明地狱不是这个房子应该存在的东西,而是首先 |
| 209 | it is my honor to introduce the speakers. | 我荣幸地介绍发言者。 |
| 210 | First we have Gareth Lim, a third year law student at St. Peter's College, who is named | 首先我们有Gareth Lim, 圣彼得学院的三年级法律学生, 他被命名为 |
| 211 | the fifth best speaker in the world. | 世界上第五好演讲者 |
| 212 | And I'm a bit disappointed, Madam President, because I was hoping to face at least the | 我有点失望 总统女士 因为我希望至少面对 |
| 213 | fourth best speaker in the world. | 世界上第四棒的演说家 |
| 214 | We also have Justin Brierley here. | 我们这里还有贾斯汀·布里尔利 |
| 215 | He is a good-natured host who has hosted the Unbelievable and Rethinking shows. | 他是一位优秀的主持人,曾主持过不可思议和反思的节目. |
| 216 | He has authored three books arguing on behalf of Christianity, and it's a bit ironic because | 他写了三本代表基督教的书 有点讽刺 因为... |
| 217 | today he will be serving as a devil's advocate for the position of hell. | 今天他将成为地狱之位的魔鬼倡导者 |
| 218 | Then we have Maximus Papi-Io-N-D-Gash, I blew it, I practiced this so many times. | 然后,我们有马克西穆斯帕皮 -伊欧 -恩 -加什, 我搞砸了,我练习了这么多次。 |
| 219 | Anyway, Max is a second year student at New College and was a member of the top team at | 总之,马克思是新学院的二年级学生,是顶尖团队的成员之一 |
| 220 | 2025年欧洲Debating锦标赛. | |
| 221 | And I will have you know that Max does not really like the name Max. | 我会让你知道 Max不喜欢这个名字 Max |
| 222 | He prefers the name Maximus. | 他更喜欢马克西穆斯这个名字. |
| 223 | So just please all note that for future reference. | 所以请大家注意这一点,供今后参考。 |
| 224 | So first let me be clear, oh wait, the formalities, Madam President, these are your guests and | 首先让我说清楚,等等,这些是您的客人 |
| 225 | they are most welcome. | 他们非常受欢迎。 |
| 226 | Let me be clear, I do not come here to be soft on evil, systemic cruelty, the injustice, | 让我说清楚,我来这里不是为了 柔和的邪恶,系统残忍,不公正, |
| 227 | the infliction of harm on others, the betrayal of the innocent. | 伤害他人 背叛无辜者 |
| 228 | These are all horrors that deserve punishment and justice. | 这些都是应该受到惩罚和正义的恐怖。 |
| 229 | The motion suggests that for acts like Hitler's, we must either hope for hell or have no hope | 动议表明,对于希特勒这样的行为,我们必须有希望或没有希望 |
| 230 | for justice at all. | 为正义而奋斗 |
| 231 | But this is a false dichotomy fallacy. | 但此是假二谛谬. |
| 232 | This house could hope for justice in this life and a God that ensures it happens where | 这所房子可以希望正义 在这个生活中 和一个确保它发生的上帝 |
| 233 | we can see it. | 我们可以看到它。 |
| 234 | This house could hope for death to be the end without a second afterlife death. | 这所房子可以希望死神无次死而终. |
| 235 | This house could hope for a restorative purgatory without the need for hell. | 这所房子可以希望一个恢复性炼狱 不需要地狱。 |
| 236 | This house could hope for everyone to eventually be saved without permanent punishment. | 这所房子可以希望大家最终在没有永久惩罚的情况下得到拯救. |
| 237 | Or this house could just hope for heaven without hoping for a hell. | 或者这房子可以只是希望天堂而不希望地狱。 |
| 238 | There are many alternatives for hope, for justice without an actual hell. | 对于希望,对于没有真正地狱的正义,有许多选择. |
| 239 | But which hell are we actually talking about here? | 但我们到底在谈论什么? |
| 240 | And there are two main Christian types. | 而主要有两种基督教类型. |
| 241 | First is the eternal conscious suffering type of hell. | 第一是地狱中永恒的自觉痛苦类型. |
| 242 | This is the traditional gruesome tortures for everything, being burned forever, having | 这是传统的恶毒的折磨 为一切,被永远烧伤,有 |
| 243 | a worm that never dies eat you, or getting a hot poker in the rear. | 虫子永远不会死 吃你,或得到热扑克 在后面。 |
| 244 | Conditional annihilation is the other main form. | 有条件的毁灭是另一种主要形式。 |
| 245 | It is a second death in the afterlife where God destroys forever those who reject him | 这是在来世的第二次死亡,真主将永远毁灭否认他的人。 |
| 246 | without actually torturing them forever. | 永远折磨他们 |
| 247 | It's just a quick burning alive. | 这只是一个快速燃烧活着。 |
| 248 | Or perhaps Christians are wrong. | 也许基督徒错了 |
| 249 | Maybe the Muslims are right. | 也许穆斯林是对的 |
| 250 | And the Christians will burn forever in an Islamic hell for not accepting Muhammad. | 基督徒将永远在伊斯兰地狱中烧死,因为他们不接受穆罕默德。 |
| 251 | It is really hard to tell which of us are going to burn and which of us are not. | 很难说谁要烧,谁要烧。 |
| 252 | But hell itself is not actually originally Christian or Islamic. | 但地狱本身实际上并不是最初的基督教或伊斯兰教. |
| 253 | It has its roots in the Egyptian Duat, which first recorded in the Book of the Dead from | 它的根基是埃及杜阿特语,最早记载于"死神之书"中. |
| 254 | 1500 BCE (英语). | |
| 255 | This is the original judgment of the dead and the original second death. | 这是对死者的最初判断,也是最初的第二次死亡. |
| 256 | This is when the sins of the heart are weighed against a feather and Ahmet eats the sinful | 这时,心中的罪恶被压在羽毛上,亚美特就吃了罪人。 |
| 257 | hearts. | 诸心. |
| 258 | This is the origin of annihilationism in ancient Egypt. | 这是古埃及灭绝主义的起源. |
| 259 | Then we have the Greeks and Tartarus and Hades. | 然后我们有了希腊人 冥王星和哈迪斯 |
| 260 | This is the blueprint for the torture porn of eternal conscious torment. | 这是永恒意识折磨的拷问色情的蓝图. |
| 261 | In 700 BCE, we have Prometheus having his liver eaten again to grow back, to be eaten | 在700BCE,我们有普罗米修斯 他的肝脏又被吃掉了 回来,被吃掉 |
| 262 | again, et cetera. | 再说一遍,等等 |
| 263 | We have Prometheus rolling his boulder up a hill only to have it rolled back down again | 我们让普罗米修斯把他的巨石滚到山上 只为了让它再次滚回山下 |
| 264 | on him. | 给他的 |
| 265 | We have a river of fire instead of a lake of fire. | 我们有一条火河而不是火湖 |
| 266 | I think it's important to remember that the Greeks wrote the New Testament. | 我认为必须记住希腊人写了"新约". |
| 267 | The word Hades is found ten times in the New Testament. | 哈迪斯一词在"新约"中有十次出现. |
| 268 | So the point of this is, a vote for the proposition isn't a vote for original Christian theology, | 所以,关键是,投票支持这个提议 并不是投票支持原始基督教神学, |
| 269 | but a vote for ancient pagan death and torture fantasies. | 但投票支持古代异教徒的死亡和酷刑幻想 |
| 270 | It's a vote for the cultural appropriation of religious doctrines used to scare and control | 这是对用来吓唬和控制宗教教义的文化侵占的投票 |
| 271 | a population. | a 人口数。 |
| 272 | Let's first look at the mainstream Christian hell of eternal conscious torment. | 让我们先看看基督教主流地狱 永恒的自觉折磨。 |
| 273 | First of all, it is incompatible with mercy. | 首先,它与慈悲是不相容的。 |
| 274 | Mercy is the sparing of a deserved consequence. | 怜悯是避免一个应得的后果。 |
| 275 | A system of eternal torment is one in which mercy has been permanently extinguished. | 一个永恒的折磨系统 就是永远灭亡的仁慈系统 |
| 276 | It violates proportionality. | 这违反了相称性。 |
| 277 | Infinite punishment for a finite crime is the mathematical definition of injustice. | 对有限罪行的无限惩罚是对不公正的数学定义。 |
| 278 | Some will say it is merely a choice via free will and that it glorifies free will, but | 有人会说这只是通过自由意志的选择,它颂扬自由意志,但 |
| 279 | a choice to having to choose God at the barrel of a torture gun is not free will at all. | 在折磨枪的枪管上选择上帝 根本不是自由意志 |
| 280 | It is coercion. | 这是胁迫。 |
| 281 | An analogy. | 类比. |
| 282 | If a government punished adultery by burning people alive, the adulterer didn't choose | 如果政府用活烧人来惩罚通奸 通奸者就不会选择 |
| 283 | to burn. | 燃烧。 |
| 284 | The state chose the cruelty of the burning instead of a just punishment. | 国家选择了燃烧的残酷而非公正的惩罚. |
| 285 | The cruelty of the lake of fire is a failure of the designer, not the designed. | 火湖的残酷是设计师的失败,而不是设计师的失败. |
| 286 | And finally, this hell is kind of sick and twisted, actually. | 最后,这地狱 有点恶心和扭曲,实际上。 |
| 287 | No ethical person really wishes for torture. | 没有一个道德的人真正希望酷刑。 |
| 288 | Next, let's take the approach of actually Mr. Briarley here, who is up next, which is | 接下来,让我们采取 Briarley先生在这里,谁是下一个,这就是 |
| 289 | conditional annihilationism. | 有条件的毁灭主义。 |
| 290 | First of all, why do we need a second death in the afterlife at all? | 首先,我们为什么要在来世再死一次? |
| 291 | Why can't one death be enough? | 为什么一个死都不够呢? |
| 292 | God killing us twice is kind of overkill, to be honest. | 老实说,上帝杀了我们两次 有点过分了 |
| 293 | Second, they want annihilation to be non-torturous, to be gentle, but it's still burning to death. | 第二,他们希望毁灭是非恐怖的,温柔的,但它仍然在燃烧着而死. |
| 294 | And burning to death is torture. | 烧死就是折磨 |
| 295 | Ask Joan of Arc, who was burned at the stake. | 问贞德,谁在桩上被烧. |
| 296 | Yes, this was an execution, an annihilation, but it was also torture. | 是的,这是处决, 毁灭,但它也是酷刑。 |
| 297 | Revelation 2014 makes no mention of a painless fading. | 2014年启示录没有提及无痛的淡出. |
| 298 | It describes a lake of fire. | 它描述了一个火湖。 |
| 299 | Biblical annihilationism means torture by fire. | 圣经的毁灭意味着火刑。 |
| 300 | To say otherwise is to give up the roots of Christianity and the Bible itself. | 否则就是放弃基督教和圣经本身的根基. |
| 301 | This creation, this conditional annihilationism is also unjust because it gives the same punishment | 这种创造,这种有条件的毁灭主义也是不公正的,因为它给予同样的惩罚 |
| 302 | for different crimes. | 对于不同的犯罪。 |
| 303 | If Hitler and an honest heretic, let's say the Dalai Lama, they will both meet the same | 如果希特勒和一位诚实的异教徒 可以说是达赖喇嘛 他们俩都会见面 |
| 304 | second death in the fire. | 第二次在火中死亡。 |
| 305 | The system has failed to name the gravity of evil if it is dishing out the same punishment | 系统没有说出邪恶的重心 如果它被同样惩罚 |
| 306 | for vastly different crimes. | 对于完全不同的罪行。 |
| 307 | Annihilationists think their belief is more merciful. | 消灭主义者认为他们的信仰更仁慈. |
| 308 | I call it the ultimate genocide. | 我称之为终极种族灭绝。 |
| 309 | It is the mass murder of every single out group, leaving only a sliver of the in group. | 这是大规模屠杀每一个出击的团体,只留下一个小团体。 |
| 310 | It is the extinction for believers of every single religion, except whichever one is | 是每个宗教的信徒的灭亡,除非他们中的任何一个。 |
| 311 | true, if any. | 没错,如果有的话。 |
| 312 | Hindus, Native Americans, Buddhists, secularists, all completely wiped out. | 印度教徒,美国原住民,佛教徒,世俗主义者,都彻底消灭. |
| 313 | It's a genocide on genocide. | 这是种族灭绝 |
| 314 | The answer to Hitler's genocide is not a genocide that is 10,000 times greater in scale. | 希特勒种族灭绝的答案不是规模超过一万倍的种族灭绝. |
| 315 | Even Mr. Brierley does not hope for annihilationism to be true in the Rethinking Hell podcast | 连Brierley先生都不希望 毁灭主义在地狱的播客中成为现实 |
| 316 | episode 12. | 第12集 电视剧 |
| 317 | He said, and I quote, I can agree with the statement that I want everyone to be saved. | 他说,我引用一句,我可以同意我想拯救每个人的说法。 |
| 318 | I think everyone can say, yes, we do. | 我想每个人都可以说,是的,我们有。 |
| 319 | The leading voice of the proposition believes in an annihilationist hell, but he does not | 命题的主要声音相信 毁灭者地狱,但他不 |
| 320 | hope for it. | 唯愿如来. |
| 321 | This motion hinges on hope for eternal punishment. | 这一动议取决于对永恒惩罚的希望。 |
| 322 | Mr. Brierley hopes against this and therefore should be standing with the opposition. | Brierley先生希望不这样做,因此应该与反对派站在一起。 |
| 323 | He is an oppositionist voter at heart. | 他是一个反对选民的核心。 |
| 324 | This house should vote with his merciful oppositionist heart and not his ancient annihilationist | 这所房子应该用他的仁慈的反对心投票 而不是用他的古老的毁灭主义 |
| 325 | belief. | 相信这些 |
| 326 | So in close, I believe this house hopes against hell and I can demonstrate it. | 因此,在接近, 我相信这所房子 希望反对地狱, 我可以展示它。 |
| 327 | This house does not want the torture porn of eternal conscious torment nor the ultimate | 这房子不想要 折磨色情片 永远的有意识的折磨 或最终 |
| 328 | genocide of annihilationists. | 灭绝主义者的种族灭绝 |
| 329 | I am an atheist. | 我是一个无神论者。 |
| 330 | I believe in reason, love, freedom, and integrity. | 我相信理性、爱、自由和正直。 |
| 331 | I do not believe in any religion. | 我不相信任何宗教。 |
| 332 | Christianity and Islam would both condemn me to the fire for this thought crime. | 基督教和伊斯兰教都谴责我犯下这种思想犯罪。 |
| 333 | So I'd like everyone in the room to please raise their hands. | 所以我希望大家在房间里 请举手。 |
| 334 | Everyone, regardless of your position, please raise your hands. | 各位,无论位置如何,请举手. |
| 335 | Come on, bring them up. | 来吧,把他们抬起来。 |
| 336 | Everybody, come on. | 大家快点 |
| 337 | Proposition. | 提议. |
| 338 | Everyone, raise your hands up. | 大家举起手来 |
| 339 | Come on now. | 来吧。 |
| 340 | Please cooperate. | 请合作 |
| 341 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 342 | You don't have to. | 你不必这样 |
| 343 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 344 | So I'd like you to keep them up if you hope in the annihilationist view that I will be | 所以我希望你能保持他们 如果你希望在毁灭主义观点中 我会是 |
| 345 | burned to death very quickly. | 很快被烧死 |
| 346 | Keep them up. | 继续 |
| 347 | Should I be burned to death quickly? | 我应该被烧死吗? |
| 348 | It's just a little gnashing of teeth. | 只是牙齿有点刺痛 |
| 349 | It's just a little suffering and screaming. | 这只是一点点痛苦和尖叫。 |
| 350 | Come on now. | 来吧。 |
| 351 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 352 | They still got them up. | 他们仍然把他们弄起来。 |
| 353 | How about, now keep them up. | 怎么样,现在保持他们。 |
| 354 | Keep them up still if you believe that. | 让他们保持原样,如果你相信。 |
| 355 | Now do you think I should be burned for a day? | 你觉得我应该被烧一天吗? |
| 356 | Should I be burned for a year? | 我应该被烧一年吗? |
| 357 | Thousand years? | 千岁? |
| 358 | For eternity? | 永远? |
| 359 | Keep them up if you think I should be burned forever. | 如果你认为我应该永远被烧死,就继续 |
| 360 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 361 | Those of you with your hands still up, you are scary people. | 你们这些还举起手来的人 你们是可怕的人 |
| 362 | You are very scary individuals. | 你们是可怕的人 |
| 363 | You should vote for the proposition. | 你应该投票支持这个提议。 |
| 364 | Everyone else with your hands down, I ask you to vote against torture and eternal genocide | 其他人放下双手,我请你投票反对酷刑和永恒的种族灭绝 |
| 365 | and I ask you to vote with the opposition. | 我请你和反对派一起投票 |
| 366 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 367 | Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. | 女士们先生们 非常感谢你们 |
| 368 | It's a privilege to be here. | 很荣幸能来这里 |
| 369 | I was myself a student here at Oxford University some 25 years ago, so it's a great privilege | 25年前,我曾是牛津大学的学生,所以我很荣幸 |
| 370 | to be back in this debating chamber and to be able to speak to this motion and thank | 回到这个辩论室,能够对这个动议发言和感谢 |
| 371 | you to Mr. Stiefel for coming at me so interestingly during that particular address. | 你给史蒂菲尔先生的 在那个特别的地址里 对我这么有意思 |
| 372 | I will try to come back on some of your points in the course of my own talk. | 我将在自己的发言中试图回到你们的一些观点。 |
| 373 | But as you can imagine, when I agreed to being on this side of the motion, I did it with | 但你可以想象 当我同意站在动议的这一边时 我做了 |
| 374 | some trepidation. | 有点惊慌 |
| 375 | I am a Christian and much of my life has been spent trying to defend Christian faith through | 我是一个基督徒 我一生中的大部分时间都在努力通过 |
| 376 | intellectual reason and argument. | 智力理性与辩才. |
| 377 | But today, I'll be very much speaking to this motion from my Christian convictions. | 但是今天,我将会从我的基督教信念中 对这一动议发表很多看法。 |
| 378 | But defending the concept of hell isn't the first place I would go when hosting a conversation | 但是,捍卫地狱的概念 并不是我第一个会去的地方 当主持谈话 |
| 379 | on faith. | 以信仰论 |
| 380 | After all, who would, as the opposition have said, want to defend some antiquated idea | 毕竟,谁会像反对派所说,想要捍卫一些过时的想法? |
| 381 | of an everlasting torture chamber reserved for those who simply happen not to believe | 永远的拷问室 留给那些不信仰的人 |
| 382 | in the God that I believe in? | 我所信仰的上帝吗? |
| 383 | And to that end, you have already heard and I anticipate will continue to hear arguments | 为此,你已经听到了,我预计会继续听到 |
| 384 | against a traditional understanding of hell that quite rightly raise questions about the | 反对对地狱的传统理解,这种理解非常正确地提出了关于 |
| 385 | morality of a place of eternal conscious torment and how that could possibly align with any | 永远有意识的折磨之地的道德,以及这如何与任何 |
| 386 | value or indeed existence of a good and loving God. | 价值或确实存在 一个善良和慈爱的上帝。 |
| 387 | However, that is not the conception of hell that I will be defending tonight. | 然而,这不是我今晚要捍卫的地狱概念。 |
| 388 | And I hope to perhaps nuance the particular way in which Todd was able to sort of anticipate | 我希望也许能细微了解托德 如何预测 |
| 389 | my own position. | 我自己的立场 |
| 390 | Anyway, the point is I probably don't believe in the version of hell that you don't believe | 总之,关键是我可能不相信 你不相信的地狱版本 |
| 391 | in either. | 在两个。 |
| 392 | Instead, this evening, I want you to set aside these medieval notions of torture chambers | 反之,今晚,我要你放下这些 中世纪的拷问室概念 |
| 393 | and so on because what we're actually looking at is, from my perspective, what the Bible | 以我的观点来看,《圣经》 |
| 394 | actually says about the topic of hell. | 说到地狱这个话题 |
| 395 | And tonight, I want to reframe the whole concept of hell. | 今晚,我想重塑整个地狱的概念。 |
| 396 | And that will mean, if you'll bear with me, doing a little bit of theology before we return | 这意味着,如果你能忍受我, 做一点点神学 在我们回来之前 |
| 397 | to our main theme. | 我们的主题。 |
| 398 | Now, interestingly, Jesus Christ himself speaks of hell more than anyone else in scripture. | 现在,有趣的是,耶稣基督自己在经文中比其他任何人更讲地狱. |
| 399 | But he uses a very specific word when he talks of it. | 但他在谈论它时却用了一个非常具体的词. |
| 400 | He uses the Hebrew word Gehenna. | 他使用希伯来语"地狱"一词. |
| 401 | Now, Gehenna was a valley used as a refuse dump outside the walls of Jerusalem. | 现在,Gehenna是一个谷地,被用作耶路撒冷城墙外的垃圾堆. |
| 402 | And it was constantly burning the litter and the rubbish that was brought to it. | 它不断烧掉垃圾和垃圾。 |
| 403 | But the point of an image of burning is that the fire consumes the refuse. | 但燃烧的图像的要点是,火消耗了垃圾. |
| 404 | There is a final end to that which is being burned up. | 正在被烧毁的东西有最后的结局。 |
| 405 | And I believe that is the best way to understand all of those scriptural references to hell, | 我认为这是理解所有那些 文字上提到地狱的最好方法 |
| 406 | whether they be lakes of fire. | 无论它们是火湖。 |
| 407 | The Bible uses an enormous amount, especially in the book of Revelation, of pictorial imagery. | 圣经使用了大量的图片图象,特别是在启示录的书中. |
| 408 | Not necessarily that we're meant to take absolutely literally any more than when Jesus says, | 我们不一定比耶稣说得更能接受 |
| 409 | I am the gate, that we're meant to assume Jesus is a gate. | 我是大门, 我们注定要假设耶稣是大门。 |
| 410 | There are obviously turns of phrase, metaphors, symbolic imagery that is used throughout the | 很明显,有些短语、比喻、符号图像 被用在了整个过程中 |
| 411 | scriptures. | 经文. |
| 412 | And it's no different with the concept of hell. | 而与地狱之观无异. |
| 413 | But what we do get from that symbolism is the idea that there is an ultimate end to | 但是,我们从这个象征主义中得到的,是这样一种想法,即: |
| 414 | those who ultimately reject God. | 他们是否认真主的。 |
| 415 | And that view is sometimes, as Todd said, sometimes known as annihilationism. | 正如托德所说,这种观点有时被称为毁灭主义。 |
| 416 | But why would a good God assign anyone to such a fate anyway? | 但为什么一个好上帝会给任何人这样的命运呢? |
| 417 | Why not simply welcome everyone in to some sort of everlasting paradise? | 何不干脆欢迎大家来到某个永恒的天堂? |
| 418 | Well, that's where we have to also think hard about the other concept, which is heaven. | 这也是我们必须仔细思考另一个概念的地方,那就是天堂。 |
| 419 | And in many people's minds, heaven is just a sort of glorified retirement home where | 在许多人的心目中,天堂只是 一种被颂扬的退休之家 |
| 420 | we get to play heavenly golf. | 我们玩天堂高尔夫 |
| 421 | You know, as long as we didn't do anything too bad in this life, why would God just not | 你知道,只要我们没有做 任何太糟糕的生活, 为什么上帝只是不 |
| 422 | let everyone through the pearly gates on that basis? | 让大家据此穿过珍珠门? |
| 423 | Well, again, this isn't the biblical version of heaven. | 再说一遍 这不是圣经中的天堂 |
| 424 | In fact, the vision of heaven that you find in scripture is an eternal future for those | 事实上,你从经文中找到的天堂的幻象 是那些永恒的未来 |
| 425 | not some in ethereal place sitting on a cloud playing a harp, but rather somewhere that | 而不是坐在云上 演奏竖琴的地方 |
| 426 | is very earthly and real. | 是非常真实和真实的 |
| 427 | What we're told of is a future kingdom, a physical future reality of a transformed, | 我们所被告知的是一个未来的王国, 一个真正的未来现实 一个转变, |
| 428 | renewed, and redeemed creation in which heaven and earth are united, a place where death, | 重新创造,并赎回天地万物,即死亡的地方, |
| 429 | pain, sorrow, and suffering are no more. | 痛苦、悲伤和痛苦不再存在。 |
| 430 | And we see the return of humanity into perfect relationship with God and with each other. | 而我们看到人类的回归 与上帝和彼此的完美关系。 |
| 431 | Now, Jesus called this the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. | 现在,耶稣称此为上帝的王国或天国. |
| 432 | But what is the nature of a kingdom? | 但王国的本质是什么? |
| 433 | Well, of course, it has a king. | 当然,它有一个国王。 |
| 434 | And I believe that king is Jesus. | 我相信国王是耶稣 |
| 435 | But I don't believe that everyone will necessarily want to live under the rule and reign of that | 但我不认为每个人都会想 在统治和统治下生活 |
| 436 | king. | 国王 |
| 437 | There are many who in this life choose to be rulers of their own life. | 在这种生活中有许多人选择成为自己生活中的统治者. |
| 438 | They don't want anyone else to be in charge but themselves. | 他们不想让别人自己负责 |
| 439 | And I believe that desire can quite easily continue into the life to come. | 我相信这种欲望可以很容易地延续到后世。 |
| 440 | And when they stand before Jesus on the day of judgment, tragically, I believe many will | 当他们在审判日站在耶稣面前的时候, 可悲的是,我相信许多人会 |
| 441 | willingly choose a self-exile in hell rather than serve Christ in heaven. | 自愿选择在地狱中自我放逐 而不是在天堂为基督服务 |
| 442 | The brilliant Oxford thinker, C.S. | 杰出的牛津思想家C.S. |
| 443 | Lewis, put it this way. | 刘易斯,这么说吧 |
| 444 | He said, there are only two kinds of people in the end, those who say to God, | 他说最后只有两种人 对上帝说 |
| 445 | your will be done, and those to whom God says in the end, your will be done. | 你们的旨意,以及真主所启示的,是你们的旨意。 |
| 446 | All that are in hell choose it. | 所有在地狱中的人选择它。 |
| 447 | Lewis says that the gates of hell, the doors of hell are barred from the inside. | 刘易斯说地狱之门,地狱之门,都不得内入. |
| 448 | This is something we choose. | 这是我们的选择 |
| 449 | And this challenges the commonly held assumption that heaven and hell are simply places of | 这挑战了人们通常认为天堂和地狱只是 |
| 450 | reward or punishment for however good or badly we did in life. | 无论我们生前做过什么好事或坏事,都要给予报酬或惩罚。 |
| 451 | Again, this is not the biblical view. | 同样,这不是圣经的观点。 |
| 452 | Those who reject God are choosing for themselves the eternal consequences of being the center | 拒绝上帝的人会为自己选择成为中心 的永恒后果 |
| 453 | of their own life, eternal separation from God. | 永远与上帝分离 |
| 454 | But in choosing to cut themselves off from the source of life, I believe, | 但是,通过选择切断自己 与生命的来源,我相信, |
| 455 | they do ultimately cease to exist. | 它们最终不复存在。 |
| 456 | Now, I don't believe that involves necessarily some physical burning, but here's the point. | 现在,我不认为这 必然涉及一些物理燃烧, 但这里的要点。 |
| 457 | What about those who find themselves in the kingdom of heaven? | 遇天国者,何也? |
| 458 | Again, they're not there as a reward for some good deeds they've done. | 再说一遍,他们不是来奖励他们所做的一些好事的 |
| 459 | Indeed, I believe no amount of our own effort could earn us a ticket to heaven because | 事实上,我相信我们自己的努力 无法为我们赢得天堂的门票 |
| 460 | none of us could stand in the presence of a holy and just God by our own efforts. | 我们任何人都无法通过自己的努力站在一个神圣和公正的上帝面前。 |
| 461 | Here's a way of thinking about it. | 以此为念. |
| 462 | Imagine that I was on a beach trying to throw a stone into the Atlantic Ocean. | 想象一下我在海滩上 试图把一块石头扔进大西洋 |
| 463 | And maybe, you know, I can toss it 50 or 100 feet out to sea. | 也许,你知道,我可以把它扔到50或100英尺外的海上。 |
| 464 | But then an athletic person comes along, picks up a similar stone, | 但后来一个运动员来了, 捡起一个类似的石头, |
| 465 | and they toss it twice as far, 200 feet into the sea. | 他们把它扔到海中200英尺远的地方 |
| 466 | Now, you could say that on a moral basis, we like to think that we're good people, | 现在,你可以说,在道德的基础上, 我们喜欢认为我们是好人, |
| 467 | virtuous, moral, and we can throw our stone quite far. | 正直,道德,我们可以把石头扔得很远 |
| 468 | We're quite athletic when it comes to our morality. | 说到道德,我们很运动 |
| 469 | Why shouldn't we be let into heaven on that basis? | 为什么我们不应该被放进天堂呢? |
| 470 | But imagine if the target, in fact, for both of our stones | 但想象一下,如果目标,事实上, 我们的两个石头 |
| 471 | was the East Coast of America on the other side of the Atlantic Sea. | 在大西洋的另一边的美国东海岸 |
| 472 | I mean, how ridiculous would that make both our efforts at throwing the stone look? | 我的意思是,那会有多荒谬 使我们双方的努力 扔石头的样子? |
| 473 | And it's very similar, I think, | 我觉得这很相似 |
| 474 | when it comes to the idea that we could earn our place in heaven | 说到我们能在天堂获得地位 |
| 475 | compared to a just and holy God. | 以一个正义的、神圣的真主发誓, |
| 476 | That idea is laughable. | 这个想法是可笑的。 |
| 477 | We could never meet the mark. | 我们永远无法达到目标。 |
| 478 | We could never hit that target. | 我们无法击中目标。 |
| 479 | But there is good news. | 但有一个好消息。 |
| 480 | One person did live that perfect sinless life. | 一个人过着完美的无罪生活 |
| 481 | Through that stone, all the way across the sea. | 穿过那块石头,横跨大海 |
| 482 | And that person was God in human flesh, Jesus. | 那个人是人肉中的上帝,耶稣。 |
| 483 | And Christians believe that at the cross, he stood in our place | 基督徒相信在十字架上 他站在我们的位置 |
| 484 | to take on all the consequences of our sin, our pride, our rebellion upon himself. | 承担我们罪恶、骄傲、叛逆的一切后果。 |
| 485 | And that it is through his death and resurrection | 而是通过他的死和复活 |
| 486 | that he offers us forgiveness and this new start with God. | 他给了我们宽恕 并且从上帝开始 |
| 487 | He offers that free gift of grace to anyone who wants it. | 他给任何想要的人免费赠送恩典 |
| 488 | So anyone, ultimately, who finds themselves in hell | 所以,最终,谁发现自己在地狱 |
| 489 | can only say, it's because of me. | 只能说是因为我 |
| 490 | And anyone who finds themselves in heaven | 凡在天堂发现自己 |
| 491 | can only say, it's because of him. | 只能说是因为他 |
| 492 | Now, I've given you a somewhat theological response to this question of hell. | 现在,我给了你一些神学的答案 对于这个地狱的问题。 |
| 493 | But as has already been mentioned, there is a larger ethical sense | 但如前所述,道德意识更强 |
| 494 | which should make us hope for the existence of hell. | 这应该让我们对地狱的存在抱有希望。 |
| 495 | And that is the hope that there will be ultimate justice. | 这也是实现最终正义的希望。 |
| 496 | In the end, both heaven and hell are the outworking of divine judgment. | 归根结底,天堂和地狱都是神的判断力的发挥. |
| 497 | That very phrase, judgment, can sound harsh and condemnatory in our ears. | 这句话,即判断,在我们的耳中听起来会很严厉和谴责。 |
| 498 | We tend to recoil from phrases that are loaded with religious baggage. | 我们倾向于从装满宗教包袱的词语中后退。 |
| 499 | But in fact, judgment is actually for the purpose of something we all do care about | 但事实上 判决其实是为了我们关心的事情 |
| 500 | and very naturally aspire to, justice. | 并且很自然地渴望正义 |
| 501 | Justice is about making things fair, | 正义是要让事情公平 |
| 502 | evening the scales that have been tipped in the direction of powerful oppressors. | 傍晚,天秤被吹向强大的压迫者的方向。 |
| 503 | Divine judgment, then, is ultimately about cosmic justice, | 那么,神的判断 最终是宇宙正义, |
| 504 | God having the final word in putting the world right. | 上帝有最后的话 使世界正确。 |
| 505 | Now, for countless people, over countless generations, | 现在,对于无数的人, 无数代, |
| 506 | this has been a source of immense comfort and hope. | 这是令人感到宽慰和充满希望的源泉。 |
| 507 | Think of a destitute widow in war-torn Sudan, | 想想一个饱受战争蹂躏的苏丹的穷寡妇, |
| 508 | poverty-stricken, famished, abused, disease and death on her doorstep. | 贫穷、饥饿、虐待、疾病和死亡在门前。 |
| 509 | The circumstances of her life have been shaped by injustice upon injustice. | 她的生活环境是由不公正和不公正造成的。 |
| 510 | The rich, the powerful, the greedy, they have won, | 富人,强人,贪人,他们赢了 |
| 511 | while she has spent her life at the bottom of the heap, | 她的一生都在堆积之中 |
| 512 | she will die poor, forgotten and broken. | 她会死在贫穷 被遗忘和破碎之中 |
| 513 | Now, consider what hope of justice can be offered to that woman | 现在,考虑一下,能给那个女人带来什么样的正义希望 |
| 514 | by those who sit opposite us, who say there is no God, | 以对我们说无主者发誓, |
| 515 | there is no heaven, no hell below us, above us only sky, | 没有天堂,没有地狱 在我们下面,我们上面只有天空, |
| 516 | to quote the John Lennon song. | 引用约翰·列侬的歌 |
| 517 | I don't believe that my atheist humanist friends here can offer any consolation. | 我不相信我的无神论人文主义者朋友在这里能够提供任何安慰. |
| 518 | On their view, life is simply a lottery. | 在他们看来,生活只是一场彩票。 |
| 519 | Some draw the shortest straws. | 有人画最短的吸管。 |
| 520 | Survival of the fittest means that, yes, the ruthless and the powerful | 适者的生存意味着,是的,无情和强者 |
| 521 | will rise to the top. | 将升至顶部。 |
| 522 | It's just the way it is. | 犹如是法. |
| 523 | Get used to it. | 习之. |
| 524 | There's no justice in the end. | 终无公理. |
| 525 | But I don't believe that is how the story ends. | 但我不相信故事是这样结束的。 |
| 526 | I believe we have good reason to believe there is a God, | 我相信我们有理由相信上帝的存在 |
| 527 | and that there is a heaven and a hell, | 天地万物, |
| 528 | by which I mean there will be a day of judgment and justice. | 我意思是 会有判决和正义的一天 |
| 529 | And that may be the only hope that makes any sense for the woman in my story. | 这可能是我故事中唯一对女人有意义的希望 |
| 530 | Ultimate justice, divine justice beyond this life. | 终极正义 超越这生命的神圣正义 |
| 531 | It's the only hope for her and for anyone for whom the scales were tipped against | 这是她唯一的希望 和任何被天平指使的人 |
| 532 | in this life. | 在这样的生活中。 |
| 533 | Because on that final day, we will all be called to give an account of our life. | 因为在那最后一天,我们将被要求 讲述我们的生活。 |
| 534 | You, me, and the actions of those who led the worst kind of injustice and terror in the world. | 你,我,以及那些领导世界上最恶劣的不公正和恐怖行动的人。 |
| 535 | And I believe in a God who sees every thought, word, and deed, | 我相信一个神,他看到每一个思想、言语和行为, |
| 536 | and is able to see into our very soul. | 并且能够看到我们的灵魂 |
| 537 | He will see that justice is done from the greatest to the least. | 他会看到正义从最大到最低 |
| 538 | And on that day, I believe that those who committed evil, | 在那日,我确信作恶者, |
| 539 | when confronted with the reality of who they are and what they have done | 当面对现实 他们是谁和他们做了什么 |
| 540 | in the presence of a perfect God, | 在一个完美的上帝面前, |
| 541 | will in that moment experience a kind of punishment, yes, | 在那一刻,将经历一种惩罚,是的, |
| 542 | but that is not inflicted by fiery pits or eternal torture, | 这并非由火坑或永恒的折磨造成的, |
| 543 | but will simply be the consequence of being seen through and through. | 只会是被看穿的结果 |
| 544 | Being confronted with who they truly are in the presence of a holy and loving God. | 面对他们真正在神圣和慈爱的上帝面前的人。 |
| 545 | And that may strike terror and fear into those who have always lived life on their own terms. | 这可能会给那些一直以自己条件生活的人带来恐怖和恐惧。 |
| 546 | But for that widow who throws her hope and her broken life upon the mercy | 但对于那个把希望和破碎的生命 投在慈悲的寡妇来说 |
| 547 | of a holy and loving God, | 以一个神圣和慈爱的上帝发誓, |
| 548 | I believe she will experience being restored into a place of healing, | 我相信她会经历被恢复到治愈的地方, |
| 549 | honor, dignity, and beauty in the life to come. | 荣誉,尊严,和美丽 在后世的生活。 |
| 550 | For this is that kingdom where the first shall be last | 因为这里是第一个国家的末日 |
| 551 | and the last shall be first. | 后一者为先. |
| 552 | Justice will be done. | 正义将会实现。 |
| 553 | The scales will be balanced. | 天平将是平衡的。 |
| 554 | The world will be put to right. | 世尊当归正. |
| 555 | This is the framing. | 这就是框架。 |
| 556 | I'll leave it there because I'm over time already. | 我会把它留在那里 因为我已经过了时间。 |
| 557 | This is the framing for both heaven and hell | 这是天堂和地狱的框架 |
| 558 | that I believe you need to consider when we vote on this motion, | 我认为你需要考虑 当我们表决这个动议, |
| 559 | this house hopes that hell exists. | 这房子希望地狱存在。 |
| 560 | Firstly, because it takes our human moral agency seriously, | 首先,因为它认真对待我们的道德机构 |
| 561 | it offers us a choice. | 它为我们提供了一个选择。 |
| 562 | Thy will be done or thy will be done. | 愿你的旨意或你的旨意得到实现。 |
| 563 | But secondly, because what we are actually voting about tonight | 但是,第二,因为我们真正 投票关于今晚 |
| 564 | is not just the motion this house hopes that hell exists, | 不仅仅是这个动议 这房子希望地狱存在, |
| 565 | but this house hopes that ultimate justice exists. | 但这座房子希望终极正义存在 |
| 566 | Thank you very much. | 谢谢 |
| 567 | Next, I would like to call upon some members of the audience | 接下来,我要请一些听众发言。 |
| 568 | to deliver floor speeches. | 发言。 |
| 569 | Just a reminder that our ball is next Friday, | 只是提醒一下 我们的球是下周五 |
| 570 | so our tickets for the ball will be going up tomorrow. | 所以我们的球票明天就要上场了 |
| 571 | A small number of early release tickets will be released | 少数提前放行门票 |
| 572 | and the floor prize for tonight's debate is a free ticket to the ball. | 今晚辩论的场面奖是免费的球票 |
| 573 | Inviting any speakers for proposition. | 请任何发言者发言。 |
| 574 | Are there any speakers? | 有没有人要发言? |
| 575 | Yes, the gentleman in the back. | 是的 后面那个绅士 |
| 576 | Do you need me? | 你需要我吗? |
| 577 | Yes, here you go. | 对,给你 |
| 578 | Hello. | 哈罗 |
| 579 | In the last years of our lives, | 在我们生命的最后几年 |
| 580 | people are obsessed with the story of immortality. | 人们沉迷于不朽的故事。 |
| 581 | Because the story of immortality is the story of us. | 因为永生的故事就是我们的故事. |
| 582 | We begin to forget mere questions of pain and pleasure | 我们开始忘记痛苦和快乐的问题 |
| 583 | and focus on the bits of ourselves | 并专注于我们自己 |
| 584 | that are going to transcend to the next stage of our existence. | 这将会超越我们生存的下一阶段 |
| 585 | This is not just a debate about whether you believe | 这不仅仅是关于你是否相信 |
| 586 | in eternal torture chambers, | 在永恒的拷问室, |
| 587 | but it's a debate about the morality of dessert. | 但这是关于甜点道德的辩论。 |
| 588 | What do fathers owe their sons? | 父亲欠儿子什么? |
| 589 | What does God owe his creations? | 上帝欠他的创造力? |
| 590 | And I think the arguments that have been presented so far by the proposition | 我认为,迄今为止所提出的论点是: |
| 591 | persuade me that this is something that we should hope for. | 说服我,这是我们应该希望的东西。 |
| 592 | I'm not very religious, | 我不太虔诚 |
| 593 | so I didn't come here intending to speak for or even vote for the proposition. | 所以我不是来这里 不想为这个提议发言 甚至投票 |
| 594 | But I think they've persuaded you that to vote for the proposition | 但我认为他们已经说服你 投票支持这个提议 |
| 595 | is not necessarily about an eternal torture chamber | 不一定是一个永恒的拷问室 |
| 596 | or burning in hell forever. | 或永居火狱。 |
| 597 | It is simply about a sense of justice, | 这只是一个正义感, |
| 598 | a sense of getting what we are owed | 一种得到我们应得的东西的感觉 |
| 599 | that the mortal world simply cannot comprehend. | 使凡人的世界无法理解。 |
| 600 | That's why I urge you, like me, vote for proposition. | 这就是为什么我敦促你,像我一样,投票支持提案。 |
| 601 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 602 | Are there any speakers for opposition? | 是否有人表示反对? |
| 603 | Any speakers for opposition? | 有反对者吗? |
| 604 | Yes. | 对 |
| 605 | The concept of hell is, by its very definition, one of religion. | 地狱的概念,从它的定义来看,是宗教的概念之一. |
| 606 | And now I'm sure most of you will agree today | 现在我相信今天你们大多数人会同意 |
| 607 | that Christianity values people who convert other people towards Christianity. | 基督教重视那些将他人皈依基督教的人。 |
| 608 | And if you go about your life converting many, many people towards that religion, | 如果你继续你的生活 改变很多人的信仰 |
| 609 | you'll be rewarded with a place in heaven and avoid a place in hell. | 你会得到报应 在天堂和避免地狱的地方。 |
| 610 | Now, one of the men on this earth | 现在,地球上的一个人 |
| 611 | who has converted perhaps the most people in human history towards Christianity | 曾经将人类历史上最伟大的人 |
| 612 | is Kenneth Copeland, a mega-multi-millionaire | 是肯尼斯·科普兰 百万富翁 |
| 613 | who is an evil man, quite clearly. | 很明显,他是一个邪恶的人。 |
| 614 | He does not deserve to be in heaven. | 他不该去天堂 |
| 615 | He has made hundreds of millions off the backs of exploiting poor Americans. | 他使数亿人民背井离乡地剥削贫穷的美国人。 |
| 616 | And yet most religions... | 然而大多数宗教... |
| 617 | I'm sure most Christians worldwide would be very offended | 我相信全世界大多数基督徒都会很生气 |
| 618 | if you would compare them to that heretical madman. | 如果你把他们和那个异教徒比起来 |
| 619 | Yes. | 对 |
| 620 | Yes, he may be a heretical madman to most Christians around the world, | 是的,他可能是一个异教疯子 对全世界大多数基督徒, |
| 621 | but who is to say whose interpretation of the Bible, of the scripture is correct? | 谁能说出谁对圣经的解释是正确的呢? |
| 622 | Who is to say it is not him that, in fact, knows the truth? | 谁会说事实上知道真相的不是他? |
| 623 | The authoritative interpretation of scripture belongs with the Catholic Church. | 对经文的权威解释属于天主教会. |
| 624 | As someone from Scotland who sees many, many deaths every single year | 作为苏格兰人,每年看到许多人死亡 |
| 625 | because of that statement you have just made, that greatly offends me. | 因为你刚才说的话, 这让我非常生气。 |
| 626 | Every year people from my country die on the streets of Glasgow | 每年来自我国的人死于格拉斯哥街头 |
| 627 | and the Old Firm match between Catholic, Celtic and Protestant rangers. | 以及天主教、凯尔特教和新教的护林员之间的旧律所比赛。 |
| 628 | And so making a statement like that clearly shows the delusion | 所以,这样的声明 清楚地表明了妄想 |
| 629 | that lies behind the inherent assumption of Christianity. | 这是基督教内在假设的背后。 |
| 630 | And I sincerely hope that no religion is right. | 我真诚地希望,没有宗教是正确的。 |
| 631 | Because if a religion is right, that means that someone has chosen | 因为如果一个宗教是正确的, 这意味着有人选择 |
| 632 | an omnipresent, an omnipotent, an omniscient god, | 一个全能的、全能的、全能的、全能的神灵, |
| 633 | has chosen to create a world in which poor people, innocent people, | 选择创造一个穷人、无辜者、 |
| 634 | die at the hands of an random, clearly unclear book, | 死在一本不明的书的手里 |
| 635 | if you've spent thousands of years debating it, | 如果你花了几千年时间辩论 |
| 636 | that he has made and it dooms innocent people to death on this plane, | 他在飞机上制造了无辜的人, |
| 637 | on this mortal plane, that we can observe and we can see. | 在那架凡人飞机上,我们可以观察和观察。 |
| 638 | We can hear their screams as they die, | 我们可以听到他们的尖叫 当他们死了, |
| 639 | having been stabbed by one of their best friends | 被他们最好的朋友之一刺伤 |
| 640 | because they lost a football match. | 因为他们输了一场足球赛 |
| 641 | Because someone said, oh, actually, I think the Catholics are right, | 因为有人说,哦,实际上, 我认为天主教徒是对的, |
| 642 | and someone else disagreed, | 还有别人不同意, |
| 643 | and then they end up lying on the streets of Glasgow bleeding out. | 然后他们躺在格拉斯哥的街道上流血 |
| 644 | I would much prefer to hope for a world in which we can all agree with each other. | 我更希望建立一个我们大家都能同意的世界。 |
| 645 | If you can all get on with each other, | 如果你们都能相处下去 |
| 646 | and we should can concern ourselves with the stuff we can see, | 我们应该关心我们所看到的东西, |
| 647 | we can feel, and we can hear every day, | 我们每天都能听到 |
| 648 | rather than worrying about some random concept that may or may not be true, | 而不是担心一些可能或可能不真实的随机概念, |
| 649 | that does not impact your media today. | 这不会影响你的媒体今天。 |
| 650 | I would hope for a world in which justice can be carried out as we see it. | 我希望世界能够象我们看到的那样伸张正义。 |
| 651 | I would hope for a world in which children do not starve. | 我希望有一个儿童不会挨饿的世界。 |
| 652 | I would hope for a world in which we can all get on with each other | 我希望有一个世界,我们都能在一起 |
| 653 | and stop worrying about some random piece of paper | 别再担心一些随机的纸 |
| 654 | that someone might have written down a few thousand years ago. | 有人可能写下来 在几千年前。 |
| 655 | We have two more speeches, one for opposition and one for opposition, | 我们还有两个演讲,一个是反对,一个是反对, |
| 656 | if you wish to speak after Mr. Michael Shermore. | 如果你想跟迈克尔·谢尔莫先生谈谈的话 |
| 657 | Well, without further ado, I invite Mr. Michael Shermore to the podium. | 不用多说了,我请迈克尔·谢尔莫先生上讲台。 |
| 658 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 659 | Thank you, everybody. | 谢谢各位 |
| 660 | Thank you from my host for bringing me all the way here | 感谢主持人送我来这里 |
| 661 | from the People's Republic of California. | 来自加州人民共和国 |
| 662 | We're running the experiment for all you socialists, see how it goes. | 我们正在为你们这些社会主义者进行实验 看看结果如何 |
| 663 | And I want to thank the host for putting me up at this hotel | 感谢主持人把我带到酒店 |
| 664 | that used to be a prison right around the corner here. | 以前是监狱 就在附近 |
| 665 | I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I'm in cell 129, | 我不知道这是故意的, 但我在129号牢房, |
| 666 | which used to be housed by thieves. | 曾经被盗贼收容。 |
| 667 | And I found myself this afternoon wanting to steal the robe. | 今天下午我发现自己想偷那件长袍 |
| 668 | I don't know if that's just sort of inherent in the system there. | 我不知道这是否只是 系统固有的。 |
| 669 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 670 | What are we talking about here? | 我们在这里谈论什么? |
| 671 | So first of all, Garrett, thank you for the shout out. | 所以首先 加内特 谢谢你的呼喊 |
| 672 | You've been reading me since you were 12. | 你从12岁就开始读我 |
| 673 | Listening to you, I think you actually are on our side. | 听着,我觉得你确实站在我们这边 |
| 674 | So you've learned very well. | 所以,你学到了很好。 |
| 675 | We have an opening right over here if you'd like to come over and join us. | 我们这里有个空位 如果你想过来加入我们的话 |
| 676 | No? | 是吗? |
| 677 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 678 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 679 | Well, I think I can talk you into it. | 我想我可以说服你 |
| 680 | Do I hope there's a hell? | 我希望有地狱吗? |
| 681 | First of all, I don't think there's a hell. | 首先,我不认为有地狱。 |
| 682 | I don't think there's a heaven. | 不觉有天. |
| 683 | I think the whole point of Jesus's message when he says, | 我认为耶稣的信息的全部要点 当他说, |
| 684 | heaven is not here, lo is not there, it's not here, it's within you. | 天堂不在这里, 洛不在那里, 它不在这里, 它在你体内。 |
| 685 | I think the whole point of the Christian message really should be taken as | 我认为,基督教信息的全部要点确实应该被理解为 |
| 686 | our job is to create a heaven on earth that is a just society in the here and now, | 我们的工作就是在地球上创造一个 公正社会 |
| 687 | whether or not there is a hereafter. | 无论是否有后世。 |
| 688 | And I think that would apply to hell as well. | 我认为这也适用于地狱。 |
| 689 | That is to say, okay, I'm a Bayesian, | 也就是说 我是巴伊西亚人 |
| 690 | so I would not put a zero or a hundred percent on any proposition. | 所以我不会把零或百分之百 任何提议。 |
| 691 | I'd give hell and heaven like a one percent, pretty low. | 我会给地狱和天堂 像1%,相当低。 |
| 692 | But whether or not I'm right is irrelevant. | 但无论我是否正确,都无关紧要. |
| 693 | The point is we don't live in the hereafter. | 重点是我们不生活在后世 |
| 694 | We live in the here and now. | 我们现在就住在这 |
| 695 | So whether there's cosmic justice and it all gets sorted out in the next life, | 因此,无论有宇宙正义 和所有它得到排序 在来世, |
| 696 | who knows? | 谁知道呢? |
| 697 | Probably not. | 也许不是。 |
| 698 | But whether or not that happens, shouldn't we have a just world now? | 但是无论这是否发生,我们不应该有一个公正的世界吗? |
| 699 | Isn't that the whole point of criminal justice and civil justice | 这难道不是刑事司法和民事司法的全部意义吗? |
| 700 | and morality and norms and values and the whole point of a civilized society? | 道德、准则和价值观以及文明社会的全部要点? |
| 701 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 702 | By the way, I will point out, because I also studied near-death experiences, | 顺便说一句,我会指出, 因为我也研究过近死的经历, |
| 703 | almost everybody that has one, they go to heaven. | 几乎每个人都有一个, 他们去天堂。 |
| 704 | And almost nobody goes to hell. | 几乎没人下地狱。 |
| 705 | So that would be if there's evidence for this, it would mean there's no hell. | 因此,如果有证据,那就意味着没有地狱。 |
| 706 | But I don't think anybody's going anywhere on that. | 但我不认为有人会去任何地方。 |
| 707 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 708 | So let me ask you a question. | 让我问你一个问题 |
| 709 | We could do a show of hands. | 我们可以举起手来 |
| 710 | Have you ever thought about killing someone you didn't like | 你有没有想过杀死你不喜欢的人? |
| 711 | or that really offended you? | 还是真的冒犯你了? |
| 712 | Let me just see a show of hands. | 举起手来 |
| 713 | Just be honest about it. | 老实说 |
| 714 | Have you ever just kind of had just a momentary urge, like I'd really just love to? | 你曾经只是有 一点点的冲动, 像我真的很想吗? |
| 715 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 716 | I can tell you from research on over 5,000 people around the world | 我从对全世界5000多人的研究中可以知道 |
| 717 | that most of you are lying. | 你们大半是在撒谎。 |
| 718 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 719 | 91% of men and 84% of women have reported having had a homicidal fantasy of some kind. | 91%的男子和84%的妇女报告说曾有过某种杀人幻想。 |
| 720 | I'll just give you some examples. | 我只是给你一些例子。 |
| 721 | One guy said he went 80% of the way toward killing a former friend and now a jealous rival. | 一个人说,他80%的方式 杀死一个前朋友 现在一个嫉妒对手。 |
| 722 | First, I would break every bone in his body, | 首先,我会打破他的每一个骨头, |
| 723 | starting with his fingers and toes, slowly making my way to his larger bones. | 从他的手指和脚趾开始, 慢慢地让我去他的大骨头。 |
| 724 | Then I would puncture his lungs and maybe a few other organs, | 然后我会刺穿他的肺 和一些其他器官, |
| 725 | basically give him as much pain as possible before killing him. | 在杀死他之前 给他尽可能多的痛苦 |
| 726 | I mean, what he's just described is pretty much the history of medieval torture in Europe, right? | 我的意思是,他刚刚描述的 几乎是欧洲中世纪酷刑的历史,对不对? |
| 727 | That's the whole point of torture is not to kill the person, | 这就是折磨的要点 不是要杀人 |
| 728 | but make them suffer for as long as possible. | 但让他们受尽痛苦 |
| 729 | One woman said she went 80% of the way, | 一个女人说她走了80%的路, |
| 730 | 60% of the way toward killing an ex-boyfriend who threatened to make public their sex video. | 60%的方法 杀死一个前男友 谁威胁公布他们的性视频。 |
| 731 | She says, I actually did this. | 她说,其实是我干的 |
| 732 | I invited him over for dinner. | 我邀请他过来吃饭 |
| 733 | And when he was in the kitchen looking stupid peeling the carrots to make a salad, | 当他在厨房里看 愚蠢的剥胡萝卜做沙拉, |
| 734 | I came to him laughing gently so he wouldn't suspect anything. | 我轻轻地找上他来 这样他就不会怀疑任何事了 |
| 735 | I thought about grabbing a knife quickly and stabbing him in the chest repeatedly | 我想很快拿起一把刀 捅他的胸口 |
| 736 | until he was dead. | 直到他死了为止 |
| 737 | I actually did the first thing, she grabbed the knife, | 我做了第一件事, 她抓住了刀, |
| 738 | but he saw my intentions and he ran away. | 但他看到我的意图,他跑了。 |
| 739 | All right, so I have hundreds of stories like this from this research. | 好吧,所以我有数百个这样的故事 从这个研究。 |
| 740 | 90% of all homicides are moralistic in nature. | 90%的凶杀案都是道德性的 |
| 741 | They're not instrumental in nature. | 它们在性质上没有作用. |
| 742 | I killed him to get his Rolex or his car or whatever. | 我杀了他是为了得到他的劳力士或他的车什么的。 |
| 743 | They're moralistic in nature. | 他们是道德的本质。 |
| 744 | The guy that's done the research on this is a sociologist named Donald Black. | 做这个研究的人 是一位叫唐纳德·布莱克的社会学家 |
| 745 | Here's some examples. | 下面是一些例子。 |
| 746 | It's basically the police blotter of why people kill each other. | 基本上就是警察编造的杀人手法 |
| 747 | A young man killed his brother during a heated discussion | 一个年轻人在激烈的讨论中杀了弟弟 |
| 748 | about the latter's sexual advances toward his younger sisters. | 关于后者的性进步 他的妹妹。 |
| 749 | Another man killed his wife after she dared him to do so | 还有一个男人在妻子敢这么做后杀了他 |
| 750 | during an argument about which of the several bills they should pay. | 在争论他们应该支付哪些账单时。 |
| 751 | One woman killed her husband during a quarrel in which the man struck her daughter, | 一个女人杀了她的丈夫 在争吵中,男人打她的女儿, |
| 752 | his stepdaughter. | 他的继女。 |
| 753 | Another woman killed her 21-year-old son | 另一个女人杀了她21岁的儿子 |
| 754 | because he had been fooling around with homosexuals and drugs. | 因为他一直在玩弄同性恋和毒品 |
| 755 | And then there were several disputes, homicides over disputes over parking spots. | 之后又发生了数起纠纷,凶杀案涉及停车点纠纷. |
| 756 | Okay, and of course the number one predictor of all this is maleness, right? | 好吧,当然,所有这一切的头一个预测者 是男性,对不对? |
| 757 | So we know that there's causes to why people commit crimes and violence like this. | 所以,我们知道,人们犯下这种罪行和暴力是有原因的。 |
| 758 | It's a kind of moralistic, what's called moralistic punishment. | 这是一种道德主义,所谓的道德惩罚. |
| 759 | Yeah, sure, I'll take one. | 是的,当然,我要一个。 |
| 760 | Go ahead. | 来吧。 |
| 761 | Okay, so my answer would be from a scientist's perspective, | 好吧,所以我的答案是 从科学家的角度, |
| 762 | we want to know why do people commit these crimes? | 我们想知道为什么有人犯下这些罪行? |
| 763 | Anybody could condemn it. | 任何人都可以谴责它。 |
| 764 | Yeah, war is bad, homicides bad. | 是啊,战争是坏的, 凶杀是坏的。 |
| 765 | Yeah, I know, of course. | 是的,我知道,当然。 |
| 766 | But why does it happen so we can figure out the cause, | 但为什么会发生这样的事情 所以我们可以找出原因 |
| 767 | so we can attenuate it and stop it in the future? | 这样我们就可以减轻它 并阻止它在未来? |
| 768 | That's the point. | 这就是重点。 |
| 769 | So what I'm arguing is that there are reasons why people do bad things | 所以我认为,人们做坏事是有原因的 |
| 770 | and knowing the reasons then we can correct them through criminal justice, | 并且知道原因,然后我们可以通过刑事司法纠正这些原因, |
| 771 | through better science and, you know, better psychology. | 通过更好的科学 还有更好的心理学 |
| 772 | And so I'll give you another study on, | 所以我再给你做个研究 |
| 773 | this is Christopher Bohm's book, Moral Origins. | 这是克里斯托弗·博姆的书 《道德起源》 |
| 774 | This is a massive study of hundreds of hunter-gatherer | 这是对数百名猎人采集者的大规模研究 |
| 775 | and forager societies around the world. | 和世界各地伪造的社会。 |
| 776 | They all experience the problems of free riding and bullies and cheaters | 他们都经历了自由骑马 欺负和欺骗的问题 |
| 777 | and people that just don't play by the rules of the little group. | 以及那些不服从小团体规则的人 |
| 778 | These are, you know, maybe a couple dozen to a couple hundred people in the group. | 这些是,你知道, 可能一对夫妇到几百人 在小组。 |
| 779 | What do they do about it? | 他们怎么办? |
| 780 | They gossip about them, they scold them, they try to punish them gently, | 他们谈论他们,辱骂他们,并试图轻轻地惩罚他们, |
| 781 | they try to nudge them to do good, and all the way up to capital punishment. | 他们试图说服他们做好事 一直到死刑。 |
| 782 | I mean, they literally take the guy out for a hunt | 我的意思是,他们字面上 带这家伙出去狩猎 |
| 783 | and they come back without him. | 他们回来的时候没有他。 |
| 784 | This is the first form of capital punishment. | 这是死刑的第一种形式。 |
| 785 | We know this goes all the way back. | 我们知道这一切会一直发生 |
| 786 | They have to do this because no society can survive | 他们必须这么做 因为没有社会能生存下去 |
| 787 | if there's too many free riders, cheaters, bullies, and so forth in the group. | 如果有太多的自由骑手,欺骗者,欺负者,等等在团体中. |
| 788 | So we evolved a capacity, first of all, to mostly do good most of the time. | 因此,我们发展了一种能力, 首先,大部分时间都是做好事。 |
| 789 | Second of all, natural selection did not eliminate | 第二,自然选择没有消除 |
| 790 | all of the free riders and psychopaths and bullies. | 所有自由骑手 精神病人和恶霸 |
| 791 | We know there's about one to three percent psychopaths in any population, | 我们知道在任何人群中都有一到3%的精神病患者, |
| 792 | about twice as many men as women. | 大约是女人的两倍 |
| 793 | And so we've never eliminated all of them. | 所以我们从来没有消灭过所有的人。 |
| 794 | There's always going to be bad people. | 常有恶人. |
| 795 | You disagree? | 你不同意吗? |
| 796 | You think they're all good? | 你觉得他们都好吗? |
| 797 | Yeah, your claim is that the hope that those people have, their divine justice, | 是的,你的主张是, 那些人的希望, 他们的神圣正义, |
| 798 | constitutes a pacifying opiate that distracts them from seeking justice in this life, | 是一种安抚阿片剂 分散了他们在这一生寻求正义的注意力 |
| 799 | that flies in the face of the examples given to you by the first speaker. | 面对第一位演讲者给你的例子, |
| 800 | What hope had those monsters? | 这些怪物有什么希望? |
| 801 | What hope had the enslaved and the destitute? | 被奴役者和赤贫者有什么希望? |
| 802 | But that which transcends the impassive world, that you force them to confront | 但超越无礼的世界 你强迫他们面对 |
| 803 | with no tools, no power of divine justice, | 没有工具,没有神权正义, |
| 804 | to husband as their resource in this life as you are? | 以丈夫为生命的资源? |
| 805 | Well, what other life is there that you know of? | 嗯,还有什么其他的生活 你知道吗? |
| 806 | This is it. | 就是这样 |
| 807 | We have to deal with it now, right? | 我们现在必须处理它,对不对? |
| 808 | So there are these various sort of behavioral economics game | 所以,有 各种各样的行为经济学游戏 |
| 809 | tests that are given, like the ultimatum game. | 就像最后通牒游戏 |
| 810 | You offer somebody, you give a subject like 100 bucks, | 你提供某人, 你给一个主题 像100块钱, |
| 811 | you can offer somebody else whatever percentage of that. | 你可以提供别人 无论百分比。 |
| 812 | If they accept it, you both get it. | 如果他们接受,你们都会接受 |
| 813 | If they reject it, nobody gets anything, right? | 如果他们拒绝, 没有人得到任何东西,对不对? |
| 814 | So if I gave you 100 bucks, you should offer $99 for yourself and $1 to the other person | 如果我给你100块,你应该给99块,给另一个人1块 |
| 815 | because surely they would take a buck over nothing and they don't. | 因为他们肯定会拿一块钱 而不是什么 他们不会。 |
| 816 | Most people reject offers that are less than about 40%. | 大多数人拒绝不到40%的报价。 |
| 817 | All right, so we all have a sense of, you know, that's just not right. | 好吧,所以我们都有一个感, 你知道,那只是不对。 |
| 818 | I mean, it should be close to 50-50 and we know from tons of research on this. | 我的意思是,它应该接近50到50 而我们从大量的研究中知道这一点。 |
| 819 | So again, we have this kind of sense of what's right and what's wrong and so on. | 再说一遍,我们对什么是对什么是错有这种感觉。 |
| 820 | Okay, so big picture just to wrap up, you know, | 好吧,大局就这样结束了,你知道, |
| 821 | in the history of over the last 10,000 years or so, | 过去一万多年的历史中 |
| 822 | as these hunter-gatherer bands began to coalesce into larger chiefdoms and states, | 随着这些猎人采集者乐队 开始联合成为更大的酋长领地和州, |
| 823 | all these informal means of behavior control to adjust for the bad people, | 所有这些非正式的行为控制手段 适应坏人, |
| 824 | gossip and punishment and so on and so forth, | 流言蜚语,惩罚等等, |
| 825 | don't work if there's thousands or tens of thousands. | 如果有上万或上万,就别管了. |
| 826 | So you need two things. | 所以你需要两件事 |
| 827 | You need a government with a set of rules and laws with punishments | 你需要一个政府 一套规则和法律 与惩罚 |
| 828 | and that here's the rules, everybody gets a copy, | 这是规则 每个人都会收到一份副本 |
| 829 | here's what's going to happen if you don't follow the rules, boom. | 这里,如果你不遵守规则,会发生什么。 |
| 830 | Okay, but that's only so effective because people can still get away with things | 好吧,但这只是如此有效 因为人们仍然可以逃脱的东西 |
| 831 | at night or whatever, the long arm and the law is not out there. | 在晚上或什么的, 长臂和法律是不在那里。 |
| 832 | So religion was the second institution that evolved. | 因此,宗教是第二个演变出来的机构。 |
| 833 | If you think you got away with it, you didn't because there's an eye in the sky | 如果你认为你逃过一劫, 你没有,因为天上有一只眼睛 |
| 834 | that sees everything you do. | 看着你所做的一切 |
| 835 | So this whole invention of hell is there for a behavior control mechanism. | 因此,这整个地狱的发明 是一个行为控制机制。 |
| 836 | You are being watched. | 你被监视着 |
| 837 | Now in China, they have solved this problem, they have a billion cameras. | 现在在中国,他们已经解决了这个问题, 他们有十亿个摄像机。 |
| 838 | And apparently this is happening in London. | 这显然发生在伦敦。 |
| 839 | But before that, we had religion to do that. | 但在此之前,我们有宗教可以做到这一点。 |
| 840 | So the whole point of the criminal justice system, | 因此,整个 刑事司法制度的要点, |
| 841 | we are going to enforce these and we're going to carry it out and so on, | 我们要执行这些 我们要执行它等等, |
| 842 | is to have justice here and now. | 现在就有正义 |
| 843 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 844 | Before I call upon Matt, whose last name I too cannot pronounce, | 在召见马特之前 我无法宣布他的姓 |
| 845 | I would like to invite another speaker, a student speaker for side proposition. | 我请另一位发言者、一名学生发言者提出附带建议。 |
| 846 | This is a floor speech. | 这是场演讲 |
| 847 | Yes, Tanush. | 是的,塔诺什。 |
| 848 | There's an irony in the grandstanding opposition does tonight | 高贵的反对派今晚有讽刺意味 |
| 849 | because for an argument that amounts to hell really, really sucks, guys, | 因为一个辩论 相当于地狱 真的,真的很糟糕,伙计们, |
| 850 | their will for the ignorant of the suffering humans impose. | 他们的意志是给那些 人类遭受苦难的无知者的。 |
| 851 | Because the torture chambers they complain about | 因为拷问室 他们抱怨 |
| 852 | are but a paradise in comparison to the subjugation | 与受崇拜者相比,它只是一个乐园, |
| 853 | of indigenous people in the 20th century. | 土著人民权利宣言 |
| 854 | It is a triviality for the millions of Jewish people | 对数百万犹太人来说,这是微不足道的 |
| 855 | for whom the concentration camps meant life's end. | 集中营意味着生命的终结 |
| 856 | They want you to believe in the speaker that just spoke before me | 他们希望你相信刚才在我前面发言的发言者 |
| 857 | that they can correct these harms in our mortal plane. | 他们可以纠正我们飞机上的这些伤害 |
| 858 | But if 90% of homicides are moral, | 但如果90%的凶杀案都是道德的 |
| 859 | clearly the application of justice is deeply flawed. | 执法显然存在严重缺陷。 |
| 860 | And they say we want to figure out these things | 他们说我们要找出这些 |
| 861 | by applying criminal justice and using science. | 运用刑事司法和利用科学。 |
| 862 | What criminal justice? | 什么样的刑事司法? |
| 863 | Like was I the only one listening to Pam Bondi yesterday? | 就像我昨天唯一听潘邦迪的一样? |
| 864 | Surely not. | 当然不会 |
| 865 | What science will bring back the deaths of everyone | 什么样的科学会让每个人的死亡复活 |
| 866 | who has died at the hands of a maniac or a lunatic? | 谁死于疯子或疯子之手? |
| 867 | I don't think there is any science or any application | 我觉得没有科学或应用 |
| 868 | of criminal justice that will fix the harms cost. | 将确定损害成本的刑事司法。 |
| 869 | What I want to say here is that there exists a false dichotomy. | 我想在这里说的是,存在着一种虚假的二分法。 |
| 870 | The existence of hell does not beget the betterment of justice in our world. | 地狱的存在不会使我们世界的正义得到改善。 |
| 871 | But what it does do is while our justice is imprecise, | 但它所做的是 正当我们的正义是不准确的, |
| 872 | while people like Pam Bondi defend the thousands of people | 帕姆·邦迪这样的人 保护成千上万的人 |
| 873 | who committed heinous atrocities on children, | 他们对儿童犯下滔天罪行, |
| 874 | that those people will suffer for the wrongs that they committed. | 他们将因自己的错误而受苦。 |
| 875 | The last thing I want to say is that their application is a huge straw man | 我最不想说的就是 他们的应用是一个巨大的稻草人 |
| 876 | because in the first minute of Gareth they were outframed. | 因为在加雷斯的第一时间 他们被超越。 |
| 877 | Debate the rational conception of hell. | 辩论地狱的理性概念. |
| 878 | I hope there is a hell and I hope it is empty, | 我希望有地狱 我希望它是空的, |
| 879 | but it isn't and until we fix that, I hope it exists. | 但它不是,并且直到我们修复, 我希望它存在。 |
| 880 | I would like to invite Max to the podium to close the case for team proposition. | 我谨请马克思到讲台上,结束小组提案。 |
| 881 | All right, wait. | 好吧,等待。 等待时间。 |
| 882 | Volume check. | 量检. |
| 883 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 884 | So, Todd was disappointed not to speak against the fourth best speaker in the world. | 因此,托德对不发表反对世界第四好演讲感到失望. |
| 885 | I just like the flag. | 我只是喜欢旗帜。 |
| 886 | Gareth was the best speaker in the world. | 加雷思是世界上最优秀的演说家. |
| 887 | So, I hope your aspirations have been met. | 所以,我希望你的愿望已经实现。 |
| 888 | Whew. | 呜呼。 |
| 889 | The absurdity of man is that he's a rational animal. | 人类的荒谬之处在于他是理性的动物. |
| 890 | He's an animal which is capable of pushing his fellow man into a gas chamber, | 他是能把同伴推进毒气室的动物 |
| 891 | watching him tear his nails off, clawing at the wall, | 看着他把指甲撕下来 抓在墙上 |
| 892 | gasping for air as his lungs fill with Zyklon B, | 当他的肺里充满了Zyklon B时 气喘吁吁的呼吸 |
| 893 | then plugging his teeth out for gold, | 然后用牙刷出金子, |
| 894 | carrying that naked corpse to a crematorium. | 把裸体尸体带到火葬场 |
| 895 | And yet, he's a rational being and yet man longs to be good. | 然而,他是一个理性的存在, 和男人渴望好。 |
| 896 | He yearns for meaning, hungers for purpose, listens to reason, and answers to argument. | 他渴望意义,渴望目的的饥饿,倾听理性,回答争论. |
| 897 | Tonight, I speak to both halves of you. | 今晚,我和你们两个一半的人说话 |
| 898 | I will speak to the half of your heart which hopes that hell exists | 我会和你那半个希望地狱存在的人说话 |
| 899 | so the monsters of this earth may burn in it. | 这样地球上的怪物就会被烧死 |
| 900 | And I will speak to your mind which hopes that a hell exists | 我会对你的心灵说话 希望地狱存在 |
| 901 | so our lives are not aimless and our judgments are not empty. | 所以我们的生活不是无目的的 我们的判断也不是空洞的 |
| 902 | But before this, I have three fairly, I would hope, | 但在此之前,我有三个公平,我希望, |
| 903 | trivial observations about the opposition's arguments. | 对反对派论点的细微看法. |
| 904 | First of all, this debate is not about any specific hell. | 首先,这场辩论不是关于任何具体的地狱。 |
| 905 | And I know the majority of people in this room have this deep-rooted idea | 我知道这个房间里的大多数人 都有这个根深蒂固的想法 |
| 906 | which is primarily found in Dante's Inferno, | 它主要存在于但丁的地狱中, |
| 907 | about fiery lakes of hell and all of these things. | 是关于地狱之湖和这些东西的 |
| 908 | But what we'll tell you today is that there exists a Buddhist hell, | 但是我们今天要告诉你的是 存在着佛教地狱 |
| 909 | there exists a Christian hell, | 有一个基督教地狱, |
| 910 | there exists in fact a variety of Christian hells, | 事实上,有许多基督教地狱, |
| 911 | and these are mutually exclusive. | 这些都是相互排斥的。 |
| 912 | So it cannot be the case that we must defend a hell | 所以不可能是我们必须捍卫地狱 |
| 913 | which is incompatible with itself. | 这与自身不符。 |
| 914 | What we defend, and what Gareth outlined, | 我们的辩护 和加雷斯概述, |
| 915 | is we defend what is the coagulated essence of a hell, | 难道我们保卫火狱的凝固的精华吗? |
| 916 | a place of punishment after that life. | 在那之后,他们将受刑罚。 |
| 917 | And to the person who talked about the Catholic Church, | 对于谈论天主教会的人, |
| 918 | if there exists a hell and if it's Christian, it's the Orthodox Church. | 如果存在地狱,如果它是基督教, 它是东正教。 |
| 919 | Not only is Orthodox in the name of like correct belief, | 东正教不仅以正确的信仰为名 |
| 920 | but we're also here first everyone, so like come on, dibs. | 但我们也先到这里 大家,所以像来吧,dibs。 |
| 921 | And the hell our religion describes is conveniently, | 而我们的宗教描述的地狱是方便的, |
| 922 | because Gareth is Orthodox, the hell Gareth describes, | 因为加雷思是东正教徒, 地狱加雷思描述, |
| 923 | a place of redemption where the soul can improve itself. | 一个救赎的地方 灵魂可以改善自己。 |
| 924 | So I asked you, how are they so certain that infidels of other religions, | 所以我问你,他们怎么这么确定 其他宗教的异教徒, |
| 925 | that people guilty of thought crimes, | 以有思想的人发誓, |
| 926 | that imperfect individuals are going to hell? | 不完美的个体会下地狱吗? |
| 927 | Gareth explained that if there is morality, | 加雷斯解释说,如果有道德, |
| 928 | God is the actor best fit to understand it, | 上帝是最适合理解它的演员 |
| 929 | because he knows all and has been around for longer than any one of us. | 因为他知道一切 并且比我们任何人都久远 |
| 930 | Second, and very obvious observation, there is no alternative. | 第二,非常明显的是,别无选择。 |
| 931 | You cannot hope for other things. | 你不能对其它事情抱有希望。 |
| 932 | The world is as it is. | 世间如是. |
| 933 | I agree with the previous speaker of the opposition, | 我同意前一位反对派发言人的意见, |
| 934 | that the probability in a statistical sense is probably quite low. | 统计意义上的概率可能相当低。 |
| 935 | So you hoping for something else, hoping for a purgatory is wholly irrelevant. | 所以你希望别的东西, 希望炼狱是完全无关的。 |
| 936 | And hoping that the world we live in is just is the definition of insanity. | 希望我们生活的世界 仅仅是精神错乱的定义 |
| 937 | For hoping for something which is blatantly false is not a valid hope. | 因为对公然虚假的事物抱有希望并不是一个合理的希望。 |
| 938 | It is indicative of madness. | 这是疯狂的表现。 |
| 939 | And it is a flagrant lie that the world we live in is just Mengele, | 我们所生活的世界只是门格尔的谎言, |
| 940 | a man who tortured innocents in Auschwitz, | 在奥斯维辛折磨无辜者的人 |
| 941 | retired to Brazil where he died from a heart attack at 70, | 退休到巴西 70岁死于心脏病 |
| 942 | while having a pleasant swim at the beach. | 在沙滩上游泳 |
| 943 | My grandfather, a good honest man, died in his 40s while my mother was 10. | 我祖父,一个诚实的好人,40多岁时在我母亲10岁的时候去世. |
| 944 | And tell me that that is a just outcome. | 告诉我,这是一个公正的结果。 |
| 945 | And tell me that that is a world they can realistically hope is just. | 告诉我,这是一个他们可以现实地希望的世界。 |
| 946 | And third, and most obviously, this is a debate about the existence of hell, | 第三,最明显的是,这是一场关于地狱存在的辩论, |
| 947 | not our belief in it. | 而不是我们相信它。 |
| 948 | So any argument about our response to hell, its deterrent factor, | 所以任何关于我们应对地狱的争论 以及它的威慑因素 |
| 949 | its ability to scare us is wholly irrelevant. | 它吓唬我们的能力完全无关紧要。 |
| 950 | I want you to then consider why you feel compelled to help a homeless man on the street. | 我要你考虑你为什么 不得不帮助一个流浪汉在街上。 |
| 951 | It is not because you perform some grand calculation of justice. | 这并不是因为你对正义做了一些重大的计算。 |
| 952 | I hope it isn't. | 但愿不是这样 |
| 953 | It is because in that moment we feel an empathy for them, | 因为在那一刻,我们同情他们, |
| 954 | and that empathy moves us. | 同情心会让我们感动 |
| 955 | And if it doesn't move us, then there is something wrong. | 如果它不移动我们, 那么有东西是错误的。 |
| 956 | Now you've heard from previous speakers on my side of the bench | 现在,你已经听到 前面的发言者 在我这边的长凳上 |
| 957 | about divine justice and godly punishment. | 关于神的正义和神的惩罚。 |
| 958 | But when we hope for something, | 但是,当我们希望的东西, |
| 959 | we are not simply making an evaluation based on our moral standards. | 我们不仅仅是根据我们的道德标准进行评估。 |
| 960 | Hope, like regret, has an emotive element. | 希望与遗憾一样,具有情感元素. |
| 961 | We may regret the death of a hero, | 我们可能会对英雄的死感到遗憾 |
| 962 | even when their sacrifice was morally praiseworthy. | 即使他们的牺牲在道德上是值得称赞的。 |
| 963 | So when you're watching out of this room, | 所以当你看着走出这个房间时 |
| 964 | members of this house, | 本院成员, |
| 965 | you should look to your heart and consult your feelings. | 你应该看好你的心 并咨询你的感受。 |
| 966 | So how then should you feel? | 那你觉得怎么样? |
| 967 | How should you feel when you see violence, | 当你看到暴力时,你会有什么感觉 |
| 968 | brutality, and the wanton massacre of innocents? | 野蛮和肆意屠杀无辜者? |
| 969 | When you see evil, ladies and gentlemen, | 当你看到邪恶, 女士们,先生们, |
| 970 | I expect you to feel anger. | 我希望你会感到愤怒。 |
| 971 | I expect you to want to see that evil answer for itself. | 我希望你想看看邪恶的答案 |
| 972 | And despite what some people would like to think, | 尽管有些人会这么想 |
| 973 | there is nothing wrong with that. | 这没什么不对的。 |
| 974 | There are acts so barbaric that the brutes that commit them | 有如此野蛮的行为 以至于那些野蛮人犯下 |
| 975 | forfeit their humanity. | 放弃他们的人性。 |
| 976 | They relinquish any claim they might make on your empathy. | 他们放弃了对你同情的任何要求 |
| 977 | They become a noxious animal which is alien to your sympathy. | 他们变得有毒 这与你的同情无关 |
| 978 | The forgiveness Zaga mentions is a calming opiate | 萨加说的原谅是安抚阿片剂 |
| 979 | which he's not entitled to offer these people. | 他无权提供这些人。 |
| 980 | Think of a member of the Einsatzgruppen, | 想想艾纳茨格鲁彭的一名成员 |
| 981 | a militiaman in a Nazi death squad, | 一个纳粹行刑队的民兵, |
| 982 | individually responsible for the murder of more than 600 Jewish people. | 对谋杀600多名犹太人负有个人责任。 |
| 983 | Think of the men who rode a top horseback | 想想那些骑马的人 |
| 984 | while they marched the Armenians to their death. | 他们把亚美尼亚人赶到死地 |
| 985 | When the bodies piled up so high, the Euphrates River clogged. | 当尸体堆积如此之高时,幼发拉底河凝固. |
| 986 | And think of the men who ethnically cleansed | 想想那些种族清洗的人 |
| 987 | my great-grandmother from her home. | 我的曾祖母从她家里。 |
| 988 | And imagine looking into those blank and empty eyes. | 想象一下这些空洞的双眼 |
| 989 | What you see is a mummified soul. | 你看到的是一个木乃伊化的灵魂。 |
| 990 | The mummified soul of an aberration transformed into a cancer, | 一个畸形的木乃伊灵魂变成了癌症, |
| 991 | eternally staining our species. | 永远玷污我们的物种。 |
| 992 | Yet even there, there flickers a light of humanity. | 即使在那里,也闪耀着人性的光芒。 |
| 993 | For after a long day in the killing fields of Auschwitz, | 在奥斯威辛集中营的杀戮场里度过了漫长的一天 |
| 994 | Rudolf Hess would go home, he would kiss his wife, | 鲁道夫 赫斯会回家 亲吻他的妻子 |
| 995 | and he would play with his children on the carpet. | 他和孩子们在地毯上玩耍 |
| 996 | Yet how does a man cradle his own child | 然而,一个人如何摇摇自己的孩子 |
| 997 | and consign thousands of others to the furnace? | 并派遣数以千计的人到炉子里去。 |
| 998 | When he knelt to tie his son's shoelaces, | 当他跪着给他儿子系鞋带时 |
| 999 | do you think he forgot about the mountains of children's shoes | 你觉得他忘了 孩子们的鞋山 |
| 1000 | in Auschwitz high enough to fill this room? | 在奥斯维辛集中营里 高得足以填满这个房间吗? |
| 1001 | Do you think that when he brushed the hair of his daughter, | 你觉得他梳女儿的头发时 |
| 1002 | he thought of his men fashioning socks | 他想到他的部下会编织袜子 |
| 1003 | with the hair of the woman who that they had turned to ash? | 那个女人的头发 他们变成灰烬了? |
| 1004 | And you needn't consider justice nor morality | 你不需要考虑正义和道德 |
| 1005 | to condemn these monsters. | 谴责这些怪物。 |
| 1006 | Listen to the part of you which hates them. | 听听你讨厌他们的部分 |
| 1007 | Do not gag at when it screams. | 当它尖叫时,不要笑。 |
| 1008 | Do not cauterize that part of your soul. | 不要烧掉你灵魂的这一部分 |
| 1009 | For there's an aptness in your anger, | 因为你的怒气很强 |
| 1010 | and there's a worth in your wrath. | 愤怒是值得的 |
| 1011 | There's a value in your vengeance. | 你复仇是有价值的 |
| 1012 | And for the people who create hell on this earth, | 对于在大地上创造火狱的人们, |
| 1013 | I hope there is a hell in the world beyond it. | 我希望世界上有地狱在它之外。 |
| 1014 | Ah, water break. | 啊,断水。 |
| 1015 | Let me then speak to your latter half, your mind. | 让我谈谈你的后半部分,你的思想。 |
| 1016 | For the worst monster that haunts hell is not a man. | 因为困扰地狱的最坏的怪物不是人 |
| 1017 | Like Cerberus, the gatekeeper of hell, | 就像地狱守门人塞伯鲁斯 |
| 1018 | it is a three-headed tormentor, each of its heads | 它是一个三头的折磨者,每个头部 |
| 1019 | snarling more menacingly than the last. | 比最后的更令人讨厌 |
| 1020 | Its first head is a life without meaning. | 它的第一个头是没有意义的生活. |
| 1021 | The second is an existence without good, | 第二个是没有好东西的存在, |
| 1022 | and the third is a judgment without authority. | 第三种是没有权威的判决。 |
| 1023 | Yet unlike Cerberus, which keeps the souls of the damned | 但不像瑟伯鲁斯 保存着被诅咒的灵魂 |
| 1024 | from escaping hell, it is the caverns of hell | 远离火狱,那是火狱的洞穴, |
| 1025 | that entomb this beast to protect us. | 这只野兽是用来保护我们的 |
| 1026 | Hell is not its kingdom, it is its cage. | 地狱不是它的王国,而是它的笼子。 |
| 1027 | For the body of this infernal hound | 对于这只地狱猎犬的身体 |
| 1028 | is sustained by a single poison, a world | 由单一的毒药维持,一个世界 |
| 1029 | unable to account for moral truth. | 无法解释道德真相。 |
| 1030 | The three heads of this monster feed | 这怪物的三头人喂 |
| 1031 | on the rotten cadaver of secular morality, | 在世俗道德的腐朽的棺材上, |
| 1032 | the morality of side opposition. | 双方对立的道德 |
| 1033 | The question we must ask ourselves, fundamentally, | 我们必须问自己的问题,从根本上, |
| 1034 | is what do we need our morality to be? | 我们需要道德是什么? |
| 1035 | For when we go about living our lives and making decisions, | 因为当我们去 生活和做决定, |
| 1036 | we rely on a compass which must point north. | 我们靠的是一条指南针 它必须指向北方 |
| 1037 | It must always bind us, morality, in its universalism. | 它必须永远把我们,道德,束缚在它的普遍性中. |
| 1038 | It must always bind us in the same ways. | 它必须始终以同样的方式束缚我们。 |
| 1039 | If murdering someone in this chamber is wrong, | 如果在这个房间里杀人是错的 |
| 1040 | but murdering them outside of it is right, | 但除此以外,杀害他们,确是对的。 |
| 1041 | then we lose our ability to guide ourselves | 然后我们失去了引导自己的能力 |
| 1042 | with moral judgments when we need them the most. | 只要我们最需要道德判断 |
| 1043 | Second, morality must be observed, objective, | 第二,必须遵守道德,客观, |
| 1044 | like a map showing us the way forward. | 像一张地图 向我们展示前进的道路。 |
| 1045 | It must describe acts as opposed | 它必须描述反对的行为。 |
| 1046 | to our feelings towards them. | 我们对他们的感觉。 |
| 1047 | It must be the case that when we say child marriage is wrong, | 我们说童婚是错误的, |
| 1048 | it is the case that it is indeed wrong, | 这确是不义的, |
| 1049 | and it's not that it is unpleasant and upsetting for me, | 这并不是说这让我不愉快和不安, |
| 1050 | but unproblematic for someone else. | 但对于别人来说是没有问题的 |
| 1051 | So, morality must be impossible to dismiss. | 所以,道德是不可能被抛弃的。 |
| 1052 | It must be impossible for someone to defend themselves | 一定不可能有人为自己辩护 |
| 1053 | from our condemnation by saying, | 从我们的谴责中说, |
| 1054 | who are you to judge me, and why should I care? | 你凭什么来评判我 我为什么要在乎呢? |
| 1055 | Like seeing the light of the North Star, | 就像看到北极星的光一样 |
| 1056 | our conception of morality requires it to be an observation | 我们的道德观念要求它是一个观察 |
| 1057 | of some fact external to us, | 有一些我们之外的事实, |
| 1058 | a universal truth about right and wrong. | 一种关于对与错的普遍真理。 |
| 1059 | Yet the secular morality of opposition categorically fails | 然而,反对的世俗道德却断然失败 |
| 1060 | to carry this hefty burden | 来承担这个沉重的负担 |
| 1061 | and discharge the duty we place upon it. | 并履行我们赋予它的职责。 |
| 1062 | If morality was an object, like this here table, for instance, | 如果道德是物体 比如说,这里的桌子 |
| 1063 | we would be able to see it, right? | 我们可以看到它,对不对? |
| 1064 | But we do not have a sense for observing moral facts. | 但我们没有观察道德事实的感觉。 |
| 1065 | What are these moral facts, and how would we see them? | 这些道德事实是什么,我们如何看待? |
| 1066 | Our moral intuitions differ radically across time, | 我们的道德直觉因时间而异 |
| 1067 | history, culture, et cetera. | 历史,文化等. |
| 1068 | So it simply cannot be that we observe wrongness | 所以,我们不可能看到错误 |
| 1069 | in the same way we observe other facts about this world. | 以同样的方式,我们观察到关于这个世界的其他事实。 |
| 1070 | For instance, it is obvious that Gareth | 例如,很明显,加雷思 |
| 1071 | is a very attractive man, and for the ladies | 是个很有魅力的男人 对女士们来说 |
| 1072 | in the audience, he also happens to be single. | 在观众中,他也恰巧是单身. |
| 1073 | Feel free to talk to him afterwards. | 等会再跟他谈吧 |
| 1074 | But the same cannot be said about moral statements. | 但是,道德声明不能这样说。 |
| 1075 | When humans look up, the sky has always been blue. | 当人类抬头看时,天空一直是蓝色的. |
| 1076 | But only recently did we realize that slavery was wrong. | 但直到最近,我们才意识到奴隶制是错误的。 |
| 1077 | If it isn't an object, then, | 如果它不是一个物体,那么, |
| 1078 | wrongness must be a property of objects, | 错误必须是物体的财产, |
| 1079 | like the mass of this here table. | 就像这张桌子的质量 |
| 1080 | But if right and wrong don't exist in this world, | 但如果这个世界不存在对错 |
| 1081 | there must be some otherworldly force | 一定有别的力量 |
| 1082 | which binds moral properties to act like murder. | 将道德财产绑定为谋杀 |
| 1083 | But on a secular understanding of the world, | 但基于对世界的世俗理解 |
| 1084 | there can be no such force. | 没有这种力量。 |
| 1085 | Only some godly being could account for this. | 只有上帝能解释这件事 |
| 1086 | So in opposition's water, do not expect to plunge into hell. | 因此,在反对派的水中,不要指望 陷入地狱。 |
| 1087 | Do not expect to plunge into fire, | 你不要妄自尊大, |
| 1088 | for you dive into turbulent and icy waters | 你们要潜入沸水和冰水中, |
| 1089 | battered by a storm of uncertainty. | 被一阵不确定的风暴所打击. |
| 1090 | For look at the emptiness and vacuousness | 看这空虚空虚 |
| 1091 | of the sources of their morality. | 他们的道德来源。 |
| 1092 | Our intuitions and our empathy | 我们的直觉和同情 |
| 1093 | were forged in the crucible of evolution, | 是在进化的十字架上铸造的 |
| 1094 | and thus subordinate rightness to survival. | 从而将权利从属于生存。 |
| 1095 | Argument from rationality, happiness, or virtue | 理性、幸福或美德 |
| 1096 | simply beg the question and fail the test | 仅仅乞求问题和失败测试 |
| 1097 | of universalizability. | 普遍性。 |
| 1098 | And it is from this philosophical nightmare | 这是从这个哲学噩梦 |
| 1099 | that the three heads of the monster rise. | 魔兽的三头兽崛起 |
| 1100 | Its first head is a life without meaning. | 它的第一个头是没有意义的生活. |
| 1101 | I want you to think how important it is for us | 我要你想想这对我们有多重要 |
| 1102 | that when we think we are doing something, | 当我们认为我们正在做一些事情, |
| 1103 | it is the right thing. | 这是正确的事情。 |
| 1104 | If you ask yourself, why do I do this enough times? | 如果你问自己,为什么我这样做 足够的时间? |
| 1105 | Eventually, the answer is because it is good, | 最终,答案是因为它是好的, |
| 1106 | because it's part of what makes my life good. | 因为这是让我过上美好生活的一部分 |
| 1107 | But that is not an answerable question in their world. | 但这在他们的世界中不是一个可以回答的问题。 |
| 1108 | For in their world, right or wrong | 在他们的世界,是非 |
| 1109 | are simple delusions we concoct to entertain ourselves. | 是简单的妄想 我们编织来娱乐自己。 |
| 1110 | And so, life strains against an absence it cannot fill. | 因此,生命承受着无法填补的缺失。 |
| 1111 | It becomes a sort of restless wandering, | 它变成一种不安的流浪, |
| 1112 | like the lost souls wandering the plains of Asphodel. | 就像迷失的灵魂在阿斯福德尔平原上游荡 |
| 1113 | The second head of the monster is a world without good. | 第二头魔王是无上善根世界. |
| 1114 | Such a world is uglier and poorer. | 这样一个世界更加丑陋,更加贫穷。 |
| 1115 | It is a sunless place where the love of a mother | 这是一个没有阳光的地方 母亲的爱 |
| 1116 | cannot be valuable, it can only be useful. | 它不能是有价值的,它只能是有用的。 |
| 1117 | It is a world that reduces itself | 这是一个减少自我的世界 |
| 1118 | and becomes inhospitable to the most basic aspirations | 变得不适应最基本的愿望 |
| 1119 | of the soul. | 灵魂 |
| 1120 | And the terrible weight of living in such a world | 生活在这样一个世界的可怕力量 |
| 1121 | would tip the scales of Anubis, | 使阿努比斯的比额折叠, |
| 1122 | no matter how many feathers he stacked. | 无论他堆多少羽毛 |
| 1123 | In this world, your soul would not be devoured | 在这个世界上,你的灵魂不会被吞噬 |
| 1124 | by the god Amet, but by the pointlessness | 以阿迈特之神盟誓,但以愚昧的态度盟誓, |
| 1125 | of your own hopelessness, by your own struggle | 由你自己的绝望, 通过你自己的斗争 |
| 1126 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}带着一块石块 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}每天压死你 | |
| 1127 | The third, and perhaps ugliest head of the beast, | 第三,也许最丑的兽首, |
| 1128 | is judgment without authority. | 是没有权威的判断。 |
| 1129 | If there is no objective weight behind our values, | 如果我们的价值观没有客观的分量 |
| 1130 | there are nothing more than the expression of opinion. | 没有什么比表达观点更多的了。 |
| 1131 | The world of opposition is one where Hermann Göring | 赫尔曼·戈林的反对世界 |
| 1132 | can rightfully claim that his trial at Nuremberg | 在纽伦堡受审 |
| 1133 | is justified only by the allied victory, | 以盟国的胜利为理由, |
| 1134 | not by their moral superiority. | 不是因为他们的道德优越感 |
| 1135 | It is a world where the cyanide he drinks | 这个世界是他喝的氰化物 |
| 1136 | allows him to escape the hangman's noose | 让他逃出绞刑犯的绞索 |
| 1137 | and die a happy man, proud of what he did. | 并死一个快乐的人, 为他所做的骄傲。 |
| 1138 | So I ask you to ask them, how can anything be unfair | 所以我要你问他们,什么是不公平的 |
| 1139 | in a world without moral law? | 在一个没有道德法则的世界里? |
| 1140 | And would you not be terrified of living in that world? | 你会不怕生活在那个世界上吗? |
| 1141 | Smothered then by your ignorance, | 在你的无知之下, |
| 1142 | you should hope for a breath of clarity. | 你应该希望 呼吸清晰。 |
| 1143 | Like a swift ax beheading the monster, | 就像斧头砍死怪物一样 |
| 1144 | hell and the god which made it gives us moral certainty. | 地狱和神 使它给我们的道德确定。 |
| 1145 | The existence of a god affirms the existence | 神的存在证实了存在 |
| 1146 | of moral facts, and his creation of a hell | 以及他创造的地狱 |
| 1147 | validates our notions of justice. | 证明我们的正义概念是正确的。 |
| 1148 | From the supple clay of chaos, god alone can create morality. | 从混乱的顶层粘土中,神能独自创造道德. |
| 1149 | Let the fires of hell be a beacon which guides us to shore. | 让地狱之火成为指引我们上岸的灯塔 |
| 1150 | We may strain in the process of finding the good, | 我们可能很难找到好东西 |
| 1151 | but we should at least hope it exists. | 但我们至少应该希望它存在。 |
| 1152 | In hell, we do not only find meaning, | 在地狱中,我们不仅找到意义, |
| 1153 | we find the unity of our own soul, | 我们发现我们灵魂的团结 |
| 1154 | and therein lies our salvation. | 我们的救赎就在那里。 |
| 1155 | There is nothing greater which you should hope for. | 没有什么比你们更希望的了。 |
| 1156 | Vote us. | 投票给我们。 |
| 1157 | Next to close the side for team opposition, | 接下来是关闭一方 对于团队反对, |
| 1158 | I would like to invite Mr. Satish Kumar to the podium. | 我请萨蒂什·库马尔先生走上讲台。 |
| 1159 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 1160 | First of all, I would like to thank my host | 首先,我要感谢我的主人 |
| 1161 | for inviting me to participate in this discussion. | 请我参加这次讨论 |
| 1162 | So thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 1163 | I would like to say to my three friends there, | 我想对我在那里的三个朋友说, |
| 1164 | you may believe in hell, but you are living in fear. | 你可能相信地狱, 但你生活在恐惧中。 |
| 1165 | Fear of hell. | 恐堕地狱. |
| 1166 | Being good in the world out of fear is no good. | 以恐惧为天下善不善. |
| 1167 | We have to be good because being good is good. | 我们必须是好,因为好是好的。 |
| 1168 | Not because, I will not be good because | 不是因为,我不会好,因为 |
| 1169 | if I am not good, I'll be in hell. | 如果我不好吗,我会在地狱。 |
| 1170 | That's no good reason to be good. | 这不是好理由 |
| 1171 | Therefore, you are living in fear. | 因此,你生活在恐惧之中。 |
| 1172 | All your life, you are living in fear of hell. | 你一辈子都生活在对地狱的恐惧之中 |
| 1173 | I want you to be free from fear. | 我要你远离恐惧 |
| 1174 | That's my first request to you. | 这是我第一次请求你 |
| 1175 | Second point I would like to say | 第二点我想说 |
| 1176 | is that your fear of hell has not worked. | 你对地狱的恐惧并没有奏效。 |
| 1177 | All the people you mentioned about this gas chambers | 你提到的那些关于毒气室的人 |
| 1178 | and six million Jews killed | 六百万犹太人被杀 |
| 1179 | and all the atrocities you have talked about, | 和所有你谈论过的暴行, |
| 1180 | they were all committed by people | 他们都是由人所为 |
| 1181 | who believed in your philosophy | 信仰你哲学的人 |
| 1182 | and they believed in hell and it hasn't worked. | 他们信仰地狱,却不成功。 |
| 1183 | So you are fighting for a cause, | 所以你是在为某种事业而战 |
| 1184 | you are fighting for a cause for millions of years | 你为这个事业奋斗了数百万年 |
| 1185 | that has been there and it hasn't worked. | 它一直在那里, 它没有工作。 |
| 1186 | We had colonialism, colonialism perpetuated | 我们有殖民主义,殖民主义延续 |
| 1187 | by people who believed in hell. | 以信仰火狱的人们发誓, |
| 1188 | Apartheid in South Africa was perpetuated | 南非的种族隔离永久存在 |
| 1189 | by people who believed in hell. | 以信仰火狱的人们发誓, |
| 1190 | And the First World War, the Second World War, | 第一次世界大战,第二次世界大战, |
| 1191 | the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, | 越南战争 伊拉克战争 阿富汗战争 |
| 1192 | all the slavery of women, | 所有奴役妇女的行为, |
| 1193 | they've all been done by those people like you | 他们都是你这样的人干的 |
| 1194 | who believe in hell. | 他们信仰火狱, |
| 1195 | It hasn't worked. | 没用的 |
| 1196 | So first I would like to be free of fear | 所以,首先我想没有恐惧 |
| 1197 | and secondly try to be good | 第二,尽量乖一点 |
| 1198 | because being good is good in itself, | 因为善本身是好的, |
| 1199 | not because you will go to hell | 不是因为你会下地狱 |
| 1200 | if you don't go to fear, if you don't be good. | 如果你不去恐惧, 如果你不乖。 |
| 1201 | Third point, those who believe in hell after life | 第三点,那些相信地狱的人 |
| 1202 | are creating hell in this world now. | 现在在这个世界制造地狱 |
| 1203 | We are facing global warming, climate change, | 我们正面临全球变暖,气候变化, |
| 1204 | nuclear weapons. | 核武器问题。 |
| 1205 | Who is possessing nuclear weapons? | 谁拥有核武器? |
| 1206 | Countries who believe in hell. | 诸国信地狱. |
| 1207 | What's the point of believing in hell | 相信地狱有什么意义 |
| 1208 | and then having nuclear weapons? | 然后拥有核武器? |
| 1209 | I think try not fear but love. | 我想不要害怕而是爱 |
| 1210 | You are a Christian priest or Christian scholar, | 你是基督教牧师或基督教学者 |
| 1211 | you should put love above fear. | 你应该把爱置于恐惧之上 |
| 1212 | And what you are not putting, you believe in hell. | 你没有放什么 你相信地狱 |
| 1213 | Hell is fear. | 地狱是恐惧. |
| 1214 | So I would like the kingdom of love | 所以我想要爱的王国 |
| 1215 | rather than the kingdom of fear | 而不是恐惧的王国 |
| 1216 | which our friends are advocating. | 我们的朋友在倡导 |
| 1217 | So I come from a kind of Buddhist background | 所以我从佛教背景来 |
| 1218 | and Jain background and we say that do no harm. | 和 Jain 的背景,我们说这没有伤害。 |
| 1219 | Do no harm to yourself, love yourself. | 不要伤害自己,爱自己。 |
| 1220 | We don't love ourselves. | 我们不爱自己。 |
| 1221 | How are you going to love anybody else? | 你怎么去爱别人? |
| 1222 | Love yourself first. | 先爱自己. |
| 1223 | Jesus Christ said, love your neighbor as you love yourself. | 耶稣基督说,爱你的邻居 就像你爱自己一样。 |
| 1224 | We don't love ourselves. | 我们不爱自己。 |
| 1225 | And we hate our, I'm not good, I'm not good, | 我们恨我们,我不好,我不好, |
| 1226 | I'm not good, all the time we are putting down ourselves. | 我不好,我们总是自暴自弃 |
| 1227 | And this is the beginning of hell here. | 这是地狱的开始 |
| 1228 | There was a story in Zen tradition in Japan, | 日本曾有禅宗传统的故事, |
| 1229 | a samurai, a samurai. | 一个武士,一个武士。 |
| 1230 | I mean, you have a samurai and soldiers here as well, | 我的意思是,你有一个武士和士兵在这里, |
| 1231 | come to a Zen master. | 来诣一禅师. |
| 1232 | And he said, these Christian people | 他说,这些基督徒 |
| 1233 | and all these people talk about hell. | 这些人谈论地狱。 |
| 1234 | Tell me, where is hell? | 告诉我,地狱在哪里? |
| 1235 | After death, where do we go? | 死后我们去哪儿? |
| 1236 | Where is hell? | 地狱在哪里? |
| 1237 | Because there is some sort of location | 因为有些地方 |
| 1238 | somewhere underground. | 在地下的某个地方 |
| 1239 | So the Zen master, who are you asking this question? | 故禅师曰,汝问此问谁? |
| 1240 | And the samurai, this warrior man said, | 这位武士说 |
| 1241 | don't you know, I'm the samurai, | 你不知道吗 我是武士 |
| 1242 | I'm the warrior, I'm the ruler of this land. | 我是战士 我是这片土地的统治者 |
| 1243 | Everybody knows me, don't you know me? | 大家都认识我,你不认识我吗? |
| 1244 | And the Zen master said, | 而禅师曰. |
| 1245 | but your face looks like that of a beggar. | 但你的脸看起来像乞丐 |
| 1246 | So you start a samurai, | 所以,你开始一个武士, |
| 1247 | he pulls his sword out of his seat | 他从座位上拔出剑 |
| 1248 | and say, I'm going to kill you. | 并说,我要杀了你。 |
| 1249 | And Zen master said, you are in hell now. | 而禅师说汝今入地狱. |
| 1250 | Oh master, I'm sorry, you were trying to teach me a lesson. | 哦,主人,对不起, 你试图教我一个教训。 |
| 1251 | He puts his sword back into the seat | 他把剑放回座位上 |
| 1252 | and says, please forgive me for being angry with you. | 请原谅我生你的气 |
| 1253 | And the Zen master says, you are in heaven now. | 而禅师说汝今在天. |
| 1254 | You are your own hell and you are your own heaven. | 你是你自己的地狱,你是你自己的天堂。 |
| 1255 | People are basically good. | 人们基本上都是好的。 |
| 1256 | You are good. | 你很厉害 |
| 1257 | In your 24 hours, how many hours you are angry? | 24小时之内,你生气多少小时? |
| 1258 | How many hours you are anxious? | 你有多紧张? |
| 1259 | How many hours you are fearful? | 你怕几小时? |
| 1260 | How many times do you go and kill somebody? | 你要杀多少人? |
| 1261 | How many times do you go and abuse somebody? | 你去虐待别人多少次? |
| 1262 | Very little, very little. | 甚少甚细. |
| 1263 | Mostly you are good. | 基本上你是个好人 |
| 1264 | Mostly people are good in the world. | 多数人都是好人 |
| 1265 | There are 60 million people in Britain | 英国有六千万人 |
| 1266 | and there are mothers looking after children, | 有母亲照顾孩子, |
| 1267 | teachers are teaching children, | 老师在教孩子, |
| 1268 | doctors are looking after, | 医生正在照顾, |
| 1269 | farmers are growing food. | 农民正在种植粮食。 |
| 1270 | It's a wonderful country and the world is wonderful. | 其国极妙,世间极妙. |
| 1271 | And we are asking them to live in fear of next life. | 我们要求他们生活在对下一代的恐惧中。 |
| 1272 | We don't know what next life is going to be, | 我们不知道后世会是什么样子, |
| 1273 | just an idea. | 只是一个想法。 |
| 1274 | We have created, hell is purely an imaginative idea. | 我们创造了地狱, 地狱纯粹是一个想象力的想法。 |
| 1275 | It's not a real thing. | 非实事. |
| 1276 | And you are living in a kind of, in your dream, | 而你生活在一种, 在你的梦中, |
| 1277 | in your imagination and not in reality. | 在你的想象中,而不是在现实中。 |
| 1278 | Reality is now. | 现实就是现在。 |
| 1279 | We have to create this beautiful world, | 我们必须创造这个美丽的世界, |
| 1280 | which is a beautiful world. | 这是一个美丽的世界。 |
| 1281 | And as Louis Armstrong said, it's a wonderful world. | 正如路易斯·阿姆斯特朗所说,这是一个美妙的世界. |
| 1282 | And when you say, how do you do, | 当你说,你怎么做, |
| 1283 | you are saying, I love you. | 你说我爱你 |
| 1284 | Everybody shakes hands and say, I love you. | 大家都握手说我爱你 |
| 1285 | And that's the reality. | 这就是现实。 |
| 1286 | And they're all, no, no, I don't want to touch you | 他们都是,不,不,我不想碰你 |
| 1287 | but I will go to hell or something. | 但我会去地狱什么的。 |
| 1288 | So I would say, be good because being good | 所以我会说,好因为好 |
| 1289 | is good in itself and not out of fear. | 它本身是好的,而不是出于恐惧。 |
| 1290 | That's the point that I would like to make. | 这就是我想说的。 |
| 1291 | But I think the people who are believing in hell, | 但我认为那些相信地狱的人 |
| 1292 | where is that hell? | 地狱在哪里? |
| 1293 | Which place do you go? | 你到哪边去? |
| 1294 | And then God who will punish you. | 然后是惩罚你的上帝 |
| 1295 | Christians believe in kind God, a benevolent God | 基督徒相信善良的上帝,仁慈的上帝 |
| 1296 | and then they also believe pedagogy | 他们也信仰教育 |
| 1297 | and that God will punish you. | 真主将惩罚你们, |
| 1298 | Can God punish you? | 上帝能惩罚你吗? |
| 1299 | I don't want to have that God that punishes you. | 我不想让上帝惩罚你 |
| 1300 | The justice you talk about, | 你所说的正义 |
| 1301 | I think justice is a lower level of reality. | 我认为正义是一个较低的现实。 |
| 1302 | Lower case, lower reality. | 小案子,小事实。 |
| 1303 | The higher reality is love. | 更高的现实是爱情。 |
| 1304 | If you believe in justice and not in love, that's no good. | 如果你相信正义,而不是爱,那不是好事。 |
| 1305 | That's not Christian, that's not Hindu, that's not Buddhist. | 这不是基督教,那不是印度教,那不是佛教。 |
| 1306 | Love comes first. | 爱为第一. |
| 1307 | Love yourself, love everybody. | 爱自己,爱每个人。 |
| 1308 | I went around the world and you said | 我环游世界,你说 |
| 1309 | that I went around the world walking | 我环游世界 |
| 1310 | without a single penny in my pocket. | 没有一分钱在我的口袋。 |
| 1311 | I went to Muslim countries. | 我去了穆斯林国家。 |
| 1312 | I said, you're Muslims, I love you. | 我说 你是穆斯林 我爱你 |
| 1313 | Then I went to communist countries. | 后来我去了共产主义国家. |
| 1314 | I said, you're communist, I love you. | 我说你是共产主义者 我爱你 |
| 1315 | Then I got to capitalist countries. | 然后我到了资本主义国家。 |
| 1316 | I said, you're capitalist, I love you. | 我说你是资本家 我爱你 |
| 1317 | Then I went to Christian countries, Buddhist countries. | 后来前往基督教国家,佛教国家. |
| 1318 | I said, you're Christian, Buddhist, I love you. | 我说,你是基督徒,佛教徒,我爱你 |
| 1319 | And I went around the world for two and a half years | 我环游世界两年半 |
| 1320 | with a single penny in my pocket, | 一分钱在我口袋里 |
| 1321 | Everybody looked after me. | 每个人都照顾我。 |
| 1322 | Love can transcend all your divisions, | 爱可以超越你所有的分歧 |
| 1323 | all your religion, rationality, race, color, gender, | 所有你的宗教,理性,种族,肤色,性别, |
| 1324 | everything can be transcended if you are full of love. | 如果你充满爱,一切都可以超越 |
| 1325 | And that's not, I'm not talking about theory, | 我不是在说理论 |
| 1326 | it's not a theory, it is from my own experience. | 这不是一个理论, 它是从我自己的经验。 |
| 1327 | So I would say I don't have fear of hell. | 所以我会说我不怕地狱 |
| 1328 | Hell does not exist. | 地狱不存在。 |
| 1329 | Hell is, if it's a hell, hell is here. | 地狱是,如果这是一个地狱,地狱在这里。 |
| 1330 | So I would like to end my this little talk | 所以我想结束我的这个小话 |
| 1331 | with a little Sufi master, Sufi master | 一个小苏菲大师,苏菲大师 |
| 1332 | who was called Hafiz from Persia. | 他被称为哈菲兹 从波斯。 |
| 1333 | And he says in his little poem, | 他在小诗里说 |
| 1334 | the small man builds cages for everyone, he knows. | 他知道,小人为每个人建笼子 |
| 1335 | The small man builds cages for everyone, he knows. | 那个小男人为每个人建笼子 他知道 |
| 1336 | While the sage, while the sage keeps dropping keys | 贤者不断放下钥匙 |
| 1337 | all night long for the beautiful rowdy prisoners. | 整晚为那些漂亮的囚犯而战 |
| 1338 | Did you get it? | 你拿到了吗? |
| 1339 | I'll read it again, please pay attention. | 我再说一遍,请大家注意 |
| 1340 | The small man who live in fear, | 生活在恐惧中的小家伙 |
| 1341 | the small man builds cages for everyone, everyone he knows. | 小人为每个人建造笼子 他认识的每一个人 |
| 1342 | While the sage keeps dropping keys all night long | 圣贤一整晚都在扔钥匙 |
| 1343 | for the beautiful rowdy prisoners. | 给美丽的囚犯们 |
| 1344 | If you love only somebody who's good, | 如果你只爱一个好人 |
| 1345 | that's ordinary love, that's not real. | 这是普通的爱, 这不是真的。 |
| 1346 | I say okay, everybody loves your husband, your wife, | 我说好吧,每个人都爱你的丈夫,你的妻子, |
| 1347 | your children, your brother, sister, parents, | 你的孩子,你的兄弟,妹妹,父母, |
| 1348 | your friends, your colleagues, okay, that's okay. | 你的朋友,你的同事们,好吧,没关系。 |
| 1349 | But real Christianity, and you are supposed to be Christians, | 但真正的基督教, 你应该是基督徒, |
| 1350 | real Christianity loves somebody who is bad, | 真正的基督教爱的人谁坏, |
| 1351 | who you don't like, who's a prisoner, | 你不喜欢的人,谁是囚犯, |
| 1352 | drop the key to that rowdy prisoner and free them. | 把那个囚犯的钥匙放下 释放他们 |
| 1353 | And not punishment, not punishment, but transformation. | 而不罚,不罚,而变. |
| 1354 | Love transforms, hell is a punishment. | 爱情转变,地狱是一种惩罚. |
| 1355 | If you are true Christian, if you are true Hindu, | 如果你是真正的基督徒, 如果你是真正的印度教徒, |
| 1356 | you are true Buddhist, you are true Muslim, | 你是真正的佛教徒,你是真正的穆斯林, |
| 1357 | and Hafiz is a Muslim, Sufi, | 哈菲兹是一个归顺的素非者, |
| 1358 | then you don't punish, you transform. | 然后你不惩罚,你变身。 |
| 1359 | So are you following the path of punishment, | 你们必定遵循刑罚的道路, |
| 1360 | or are you following the path of transformation? | 还是你走上了转变的道路? |
| 1361 | I am for transformation, and therefore hell is a punishment. | 我赞成转变,因此地狱是惩罚。 |
| 1362 | I don't believe in punishment, I believe in transformation, | 我不相信惩罚,我相信转变, |
| 1363 | I believe in love, and that's why I'm a magician. | 我相信爱情,这就是为什么我是一个魔术师。 |
| 1364 | Therefore please vote for no hell, | 因此,请投不地狱, |
| 1365 | but heaven everywhere, thank you. | 但天堂无处不在 谢谢 |
| 1366 | And now, we will take a short break. | 现在,我们休息一会 |
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