耶鲁教授保罗·弗里德曼探讨餐桌上历史与观念
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:04 | Before we get started, I'll just do a quick introduction. | 在我们开始之前,我会做一个简短的介绍。 |
| 0:07 | My name is Devin Lau. | 我叫刘德文 |
| 0:08 | I am the Assistant Director for Yale Center Beijing. | 我是耶鲁北京中心助理主任 |
| 0:12 | Yale Center Beijing was established in 2014 | 北京耶鲁中心成立于2014年. |
| 0:14 | as a way to continue the centuries long relationship | 作为延续几个世纪长期关系的途径 |
| 0:17 | between Yale and China. | 在耶鲁与中国之间. |
| 0:21 | We've hosted hundreds of events | 我们办了几百场活动 |
| 0:23 | ranging from history, philosophy, science, | 从历史,哲学,科学, |
| 0:27 | you name it, we've done it. | 你说吧,我们已经做到了。 |
| 0:30 | And so we're especially glad today | 我们今天特别高兴 |
展开字幕全文（1598 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Before we get started, I'll just do a quick introduction. | 在我们开始之前,我会做一个简短的介绍。 |
| 2 | My name is Devin Lau. | 我叫刘德文 |
| 3 | I am the Assistant Director for Yale Center Beijing. | 我是耶鲁北京中心助理主任 |
| 4 | Yale Center Beijing was established in 2014 | 北京耶鲁中心成立于2014年. |
| 5 | as a way to continue the centuries long relationship | 作为延续几个世纪长期关系的途径 |
| 6 | between Yale and China. | 在耶鲁与中国之间. |
| 7 | We've hosted hundreds of events | 我们办了几百场活动 |
| 8 | ranging from history, philosophy, science, | 从历史,哲学,科学, |
| 9 | you name it, we've done it. | 你说吧,我们已经做到了。 |
| 10 | And so we're especially glad today | 我们今天特别高兴 |
| 11 | to have a topic of conversation | 有话题的对话 |
| 12 | that is near and dear to my heart | 离我很近,很亲切 |
| 13 | and to Paul and to Jiao Yong's heart, of course. | 当然还有保罗和焦勇的心 |
| 14 | And so let's get started with quick introductions. | 让我们开始 快速的介绍。 |
| 15 | I don't think Paul needs much introduction. | 我觉得保罗不需要很多介绍 |
| 16 | He's been a loyal speaker at Yale Center Beijing | 他在北京耶鲁中心当过忠实的演讲人 |
| 17 | and has visited in person before, | 并亲自拜访过, |
| 18 | but just because I know some of you guys are new here, | 但我知道你们是新来的 |
| 19 | so quick introduction. | 这么快的介绍。 |
| 20 | Paul Friedman, Professor Paul Friedman | 保罗·弗里德曼,保罗·弗里德曼教授 |
| 21 | is the Chester Tripp Professor of History | 是切斯特·特里普历史教授 |
| 22 | at Yale University. | 在耶鲁大学 |
| 23 | His original foray into academia began with medieval Europe | 他最初进入学术界 始于中世纪欧洲 |
| 24 | and especially in Spain and Catalan. | 特别是在西班牙和加泰罗尼亚 |
| 25 | It's from that interest that he developed an interest | 他从这种兴趣发展出一种兴趣 |
| 26 | in talking about spices and the spice trade, | 在谈论香料和香料贸易时, |
| 27 | which led him to write his first book on food | 于是他写了第一本关于食物的书 |
| 28 | out of the East, which was talking about the spice trade. | 东边说着香料贸易 |
| 29 | And then he edited a volume called Food, | 然后他编辑了一本名为食物的书 |
| 30 | a History of Taste, which I read as an undergrad | a 味道的历史,我读为下级 |
| 31 | in his course. | 在他的课程。 |
| 32 | And from there, he also wrote 10 Restaurants | 从那里,他还写了10个餐厅 |
| 33 | that Changed America, which we'll talk about today | 改变的美国,我们今天谈 |
| 34 | as well as American cuisine and how it got that way. | 还有美国烹饪 和它是如何得到的。 |
| 35 | And he also has a forthcoming book on Why Food Matters, | 他还有一本书《为什么食物重要》 |
| 36 | which obviously you guys are all here, | 显然你们都在这里 |
| 37 | so you guys know that food matters. | 你们知道食物很重要 |
| 38 | And Zhao Yong or Yong Zhao is also joining us. | 而赵勇或永昭也加入. |
| 39 | He's the CEO and co-founder of Junze in New Haven | 他是纽黑文俊泽的首席执行官兼联合创始人 |
| 40 | and in Manhattan, a very popular and successful, | 在曼哈顿,一个非常受欢迎和成功的, |
| 41 | fast casual Chinese, would you say Northern Chinese | 快速的中国人,你说北方的中国人 |
| 42 | or just Chinese? | 还是中国人? |
| 43 | It's fine. | 没事 |
| 44 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 45 | And they've been doing extremely well, | 他们做的非常好, |
| 46 | even amidst the pandemic with very creative ways | 即使是在这场大流行中 以非常有创意的方式 |
| 47 | of engaging their audience with social media | 与社交媒体接触 |
| 48 | and other things and have had a tremendous amount | 和很多东西, |
| 49 | of very positive publicity on the New York Times, | 在纽约时报上非常积极的宣传, |
| 50 | Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Eater, et cetera, et cetera. | 华尔街日报,福布斯,食人等. |
| 51 | Zhao Yong is a graduate of Peking University | 赵勇是北京大学毕业生 |
| 52 | as well as the Yale School of Environmental Sciences now. | 以及现在的耶鲁环境科学学院. |
| 53 | And so we're also very lucky to have him here | 我们也很幸运他能来 |
| 54 | because a lot of our conversations | 因为很多我们的对话 |
| 55 | tend to be kind of very academic in nature, | 往往是一种非常学术性的性质, |
| 56 | but we also have somebody who is very much on the ground | 但是我们也有一个人非常在地面上 |
| 57 | and practicing, so that's great. | 和练习,所以这是伟大的。 |
| 58 | And so today is gonna be a moderated discussion | 所以今天是讨论节奏 |
| 59 | with Paul and with Zhao Yong. | 与保罗,与赵勇. |
| 60 | Before we get into the discussion, | 在我们开始讨论之前 |
| 61 | I will say if you are willing and able to, | 我会说,如果你愿意和有能力, |
| 62 | please turn on your cameras if you can. | 请打开你的相机,如果你可以。 |
| 63 | It's always nice to be able to see who we're talking to. | 常善能见彼语者. |
| 64 | And so that would be appreciated if you're able to do that. | 如果你能做到这一点,那会很感激。 |
| 65 | Just give me guys a minute. | 只要给我一分钟。 |
| 66 | So what's gonna happen is I'm going to have | 因此,会发生什么是 我会有 |
| 67 | a moderated discussion with some questions | 主持讨论并提出一些问题 |
| 68 | for both Paul and Zhao Yong and then we'll turn it over | 给保罗和赵勇,然后我们把它翻过来 |
| 69 | to open floor for people in the audience | 开放观众席 |
| 70 | to ask questions as well after we get through | 问问题,我们通过之后 |
| 71 | some of those questions. | 其中一些问题。 |
| 72 | So yeah, let's begin. | 所以,让我们开始。 |
| 73 | So the impetus for this program, | 所以这个计划的动力 |
| 74 | what happened was about, I think it was about two weeks ago, | 发生了什么事,我想是大约两周前, |
| 75 | a dear friend of Paul's and Yong's, Cecilia Chang, | 保罗和阿勇的好朋友 西西莉亚·张 |
| 76 | passed away at the age of 100. | 100岁时去世. |
| 77 | And she was obviously a legendary figure | 她显然是个传奇人物 |
| 78 | in the American culinary world, | 在美国烹饪界, |
| 79 | basically a who's who of chefs and food luminaries, | 基本上谁是谁是厨师 和食物亮点, |
| 80 | all had marvelous things to say about her as she passed. | 在她逝世时,所有的事情都非常美妙 |
| 81 | And so I emailed Paul and said, | 于是我给保罗发了邮件 说 |
| 82 | oh my gosh, we've got to do something to commemorate her | 天啊,我们得做点什么来纪念她 |
| 83 | because she's done so much to bridge the gap | 因为她已经做了这么多 弥补差距 |
| 84 | between US and China through food and through culture. | 美国和中国之间通过食物和文化。 |
| 85 | And so that's sort of the impetus for this talk. | 所以这就是这个演讲的动力。 |
| 86 | And so Paul, you were very good friends with Cecilia. | 保罗,你和塞西莉亚是好朋友 |
| 87 | And in fact, you included her restaurant in your book, | 事实上,你把她的餐馆 写进你的书里 |
| 88 | 10 Restaurants That Changed America. | 10家餐厅改变了美国。 |
| 89 | But of course, for those in China, | 当然,对于中国人来说 |
| 90 | they may not be as familiar with her. | 他们可能不太熟悉她 |
| 91 | So maybe we could begin by, | 所以也许我们可以开始, |
| 92 | if we could have you give a brief introduction | 如果你能给我一个简短的介绍 |
| 93 | to who she was and kind of the impact of her life | 她是谁 和那种影响 她的生活 |
| 94 | on cuisine in America, | 在美国的烹饪, |
| 95 | as well as the overall status of Chinese food | 以及中国食品的总体状况 |
| 96 | and Chinese Americans in America. | 美国华裔美国人 |
| 97 | Yes, thank you, Devin. | 是的,谢谢你,德文 |
| 98 | I'm so glad to be with you and with Yong. | 欢喜与汝及阿勇. |
| 99 | And this brings back some very happy memories | 这带来了一些非常快乐的回忆 |
| 100 | of my stay in China in August of 2019, | 我于2019年8月在中国逗留 |
| 101 | which on the one hand seems just like yesterday | 一方面看起来就像昨天一样 |
| 102 | and on the other, maybe half a lifetime ago. | 而另一方面,也许半生前。 |
| 103 | 所以我很幸运能见到Cecilia Chang | |
| 104 | eight to nine years ago. | 八至九岁. |
| 105 | I was working on this book | 我在写这本书 |
| 106 | on 10 most important restaurants in the United States. | 美国十家最重要的餐馆 |
| 107 | And you have to include a Chinese restaurant | 还要包括一家中餐馆 |
| 108 | because Americans since the 1880s | 因为1880年代以来的美国人 |
| 109 | who were not of Chinese origin, | 不是中国人 |
| 110 | fell in love with Chinese food in the late 19th century. | 19世纪后期爱上了中国菜. |
| 111 | There are now about 40,000 Chinese restaurants | 现在大约有四万个中餐馆 |
| 112 | in the United States, | 在美国, |
| 113 | which is more than KFC and McDonald's branches combined. | 比KFC和麦当劳的分店加起来还要多 |
| 114 | So we will, I think, be talking about | 所以,我想,我们会谈论 |
| 115 | the different permutations | 不同形态 |
| 116 | of what is called Chinese food in the United States, | 美国的中国食品, |
| 117 | which is not always all that authentic, | 并非都是真实的, |
| 118 | 但是Cecilia Chang的个性很难表达 | |
| 119 | without using cliches like life-affirming, energetic. | 而不使用陈词滥调,如 生活肯定,精力充沛。 |
| 120 | So I came to San Francisco to interview her | 所以我来到旧金山采访她 |
| 121 | and I had no connection to her before. | 我之前和她一点关系也没有 |
| 122 | She was 92 years old | 她当时92岁 |
| 123 | and actually told me over the telephone, | 电话里告诉我 |
| 124 | oh, yes, I'll talk to you, but you better hurry. | 哦,是的,我会告诉你, 但你最好快点。 |
| 125 | I'm 92 years old. | 我92岁了 |
| 126 | And she was more energetic than I was. | 她比我更活跃 |
| 127 | I had allowed a couple hours and then over two days | 我允许几个小时 然后两天多 |
| 128 | and very careful to pace her and she never was tired. | 并非常小心的节奏 她从来没有疲倦。 |
| 129 | And I was kind of dragged out after just a couple hours. | 几个小时后我就被拖走了 |
| 130 | And she was so sparkling and lively. | 她是如此的闪耀和活泼。 |
| 131 | She asked me when I was coming back, | 她问我什么时候回来, |
| 132 | she made arrangements for my wife | 她为我妻子做了安排 |
| 133 | to go to one of the most difficult | 去一个最困难的 |
| 134 | to get a reservation places in the United States | 在美国获得保留名额 |
| 135 | for her 60th birthday. | 她60岁生日 |
| 136 | And Cecilia came with us for the 60th birthday party. | 塞西莉亚跟我们一起参加了60岁生日派对 |
| 137 | So anyway, just a sense of who she was. | 所以不管怎样,只是感觉她是谁。 |
| 138 | She was born Sun Yon, her family was from Shanghai. | 她出生于孙延,家庭出身于上海. |
| 139 | They were wealthy owners of a number of enterprises | 他们是一些企业的富翁 |
| 140 | in pre-revolutionary China, movie theaters, | 在革命前的中国,电影院, |
| 141 | textile mills, among other things. | 纺织厂等. |
| 142 | She grew up in Beijing. | 她在北京长大. |
| 143 | She was one of 12 children, the seventh daughter. | 她是12个孩子之一,第七女. |
| 144 | And in a palatial kind of compound, | 在一个令人愉快的复合体中, |
| 145 | they had two chefs, one who cooked Northern Chinese food | 他们有两个厨师,一个煮中国北方菜 |
| 146 | and another who cooked Shanghai food. | 还有另一个煮上海菜的人 |
| 147 | She never learned to cook because it wasn't appropriate | 她没学过做饭 因为这样不合适 |
| 148 | for someone of her status to cook. | 给一个有身份的人做饭 |
| 149 | She had a lot of adventures. | 她有很多冒险 |
| 150 | She had a life of great adversity, | 她的生活充满了巨大的逆境 |
| 151 | fleeing the Japanese invasion, occupation of Beijing. | 逃离日本入侵,占领北京. |
| 152 | And then settling in Japan after the revolution | 革命后定居日本 |
| 153 | and then almost by accident opened a restaurant | 然后几乎意外地开了一家餐馆 |
| 154 | in the United States. | 在美国。 |
| 155 | She had come to the United States in 1960 | 她1960年来到美国 |
| 156 | to be with her sister, one of her sisters | 与她的妹妹,她的姐妹之一 |
| 157 | who had lost her husband. | 他失去了她的丈夫,她已经失去了她的丈夫。 |
| 158 | And she met by chance some friends from China | 她偶然遇到了一些来自中国的朋友 |
| 159 | who convinced her to invest in opening a restaurant, | 说服她投资开一家餐厅 |
| 160 | a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco. | 旧金山的一家中餐馆. |
| 161 | And then they pulled out of it. | 然后他们拔出来。 |
| 162 | And Cecilia was left with a large financial obligation. | 而塞西莉亚却背负着沉重的财政义务. |
| 163 | And she was ashamed to go back to Japan to tell her husband | 她羞愧地回到日本去告诉丈夫 |
| 164 | that she had wasted all this money | 她浪费了这么多钱 |
| 165 | and opened up a restaurant | 开了一家餐厅 |
| 166 | under not very promising circumstances, | 在不太有希望的情况下, |
| 167 | being a woman in a male-dominated field, | 在以男性为主的领域, |
| 168 | being Northern Chinese. | 是中国北方人 |
| 169 | And every other restaurateur in San Francisco | 还有旧金山其他的修士 |
| 170 | was from Guangdong or Fujian. | 是来自广东或福建的 |
| 171 | And then not even having a restaurant in Chinatown. | 然后连唐人街的餐馆都没有了 |
| 172 | It was in another neighborhood. | 在另一个街区 |
| 173 | Nevertheless, she made a tremendous success of it. | 尽管如此,她还是取得了巨大的成功. |
| 174 | She served food that was both more authentic | 她供奉的食物都更真实 |
| 175 | than what was being served to non-Asian, | 而不是被送达非亚裔, |
| 176 | non-Chinese Americans, but that was accessible. | 非华裔美国人, 但这是无障碍的。 |
| 177 | And she also was a great educator telling people | 她也是一个伟大的教育家 告诉人们 |
| 178 | how to eat things, what to order. | 如何吃东西,什么是命令。 |
| 179 | And this restaurant opened in 1961 | 这家餐厅于1961年开业 |
| 180 | and it was called the Mandarin. | 它被称为普通话。 |
| 181 | And it would, if not revolutionize, | 如果不是革命化的话 |
| 182 | at least change American appreciation of Chinese food. | 至少改变美国对中国食品的欣赏 |
| 183 | She remained very active in the restaurant world, | 她仍然非常活跃 在餐厅的世界, |
| 184 | both as an investor, as an experimenter, | 既是投资人又是实验者 |
| 185 | as a mentor to many restaurant owners | 作为许多餐馆老板的导师 |
| 186 | and a beloved and unique figure. | 和一位可爱而独特的人物。 |
| 187 | Thank you, Paul. | 谢谢你,保罗。 |
| 188 | Yeah, and so, Jiayong, you got to meet Cecilia, | 是啊,所以,贾永,你必须满足塞西莉亚, |
| 189 | I think, through Paul, right? | 我想,通过保罗,对不对? |
| 190 | And anyways, you're following in her footsteps | 总之,你跟随她的脚步 |
| 191 | and you're trying to bring a taste | 你试图带来一个味道 |
| 192 | of Northern Chinese cuisine to the American public now. | 向美国公众介绍中国北方菜肴 |
| 193 | And of course, in her time, that was through fine dining, | 当然,在她那段时间里, 通过精美的晚餐, |
| 194 | but the trend now in the food world overall | 但现在整个粮食世界的趋势 |
| 195 | is fast casual and making it more accessible | 是快速的随意 并使其更容易使用 |
| 196 | and for people to understand. | 以便人们了解。 |
| 197 | So what was your experience like with her, | 那么,什么是你的经验 与她, |
| 198 | getting to meet her and work with her and talk with her, | 和她一起工作 和她谈谈 |
| 199 | especially since you're doing something | 尤其是因为你正在做一些事情 |
| 200 | that's very much a continuation of what she's done | 这在很大程度上是她所做的事的延续 |
| 201 | for Chinese food in America | 美国的中国食品 |
| 202 | and how have you been inspired by her? | 你怎么从她身上得到灵感的? |
| 203 | Yeah, I mean, I first introduced by Paul to her | 是啊,我是说,我第一次由保罗介绍给她 |
| 204 | in 2016, in January, I was in California | 2016年,1月,我在加利福尼亚州 |
| 205 | and Paul said, you have to go visit Cecilia. | 保罗说 你必须去拜访塞西莉亚 |
| 206 | And to me, that's like, I need to visit a god. | 对我来说,我需要拜访上帝 |
| 207 | So I called her and she pick up the phone | 所以我打电话给她,她接电话 |
| 208 | and she speak Mandarin, like in a Northern accent. | 她会说普通话 就像北方的口音 |
| 209 | So I speak like that as well. | 所以我也这么说。 |
| 210 | She said, okay, come visit me, this is my address. | 她说,好吧,来看我,这是我的地址。 |
| 211 | And yeah, I'll see you, I forgot which day | 是的,再见,我忘了哪天 |
| 212 | it was, but I'll see you then. | 本来是的,但到时候见 |
| 213 | I was like, wow, that was quick. | 我当时想,哇,那太快了。 |
| 214 | And I just visit her and to talk about our vision. | 我只是来看她 谈谈我们的愿景 |
| 215 | I think she immediately like what we said, | 我觉得她马上喜欢我们说的话 |
| 216 | because what we're saying is essentially it's about, | 因为我们说的是 本质上是有关, |
| 217 | we think the development of Chinese food | 我们认为中国食物的发展 |
| 218 | in America is lacking. | 在美国缺乏。 |
| 219 | There's a lot of more potential | 还有很多潜力 |
| 220 | for Chinese food to be better | 让中国菜更好吃 |
| 221 | and we want to bring something different. | 我们想要带来不同的东西。 |
| 222 | We want to do something different. | 我们想做一些不同的事情。 |
| 223 | And I think she really appreciate | 我觉得她真的很感激 |
| 224 | or say as she react to one thing | 或者说,当她对一件事的反应 |
| 225 | that we want to say is really well, | 我们想说的是真的很好, |
| 226 | is that we want to do a better management. | 我们想做更好的管理 |
| 227 | She's not just saying, oh, our culture is better. | 她不只是说 我们的文化更好 |
| 228 | She's more like, she do things really, really well | 她更喜欢,她做的事情 真的,真的很好 |
| 229 | and really diligently and she do anything | 并非常勤奋,她做任何事情 |
| 230 | that's almost like feel perfect. | 这几乎就像感觉完美。 |
| 231 | So that's like, you saw her, you saw a living legend. | 所以,这就是说,你看到了她,你看到了一个活的传说。 |
| 232 | That means like from physical part, | 意思是从身体上说 |
| 233 | she's in that year, she's 16, | 她今年16岁 |
| 234 | so which means she's 97 or 96 | 也就是说她97岁或96岁 |
| 235 | and her hair is all black and no dyes, right? | 她的头发都是黑色的,没有染料,对吧? |
| 236 | And she's a very active exercise every day. | 她每天都很活跃 |
| 237 | She still cook herself four dishes a day sort of things. | 她每天还煮四盘菜 |
| 238 | And she'll buy groceries and just like all the things in 96 | 她会买杂货 和96年一样 |
| 239 | and she reply text messages and reply emails. | 她回答短信和电子邮件。 |
| 240 | All these things like imagine your grandma | 这一切就像想象你的奶奶 |
| 241 | like in the 70s, sometimes they don't do that, right? | 像70年代, 有时他们不这样做,对不对? |
| 242 | But she react to news like such as, | 但她对新闻的反应 喜欢, |
| 243 | oh, Prince is dead, sorry. | 哦,王子死了,对不起。 |
| 244 | I mean, all these pop culture things, she react to those. | 我的意思是,所有这些流行文化的事情, 她的反应这些。 |
| 245 | So I was so impressed or like shocked by that | 所以,我是如此的印象 或喜欢震惊 |
| 246 | because that's like what the legend looks like. | 因为传说就是这样 |
| 247 | And I was also very lucky that | 我也非常幸运 |
| 248 | when I was in San Francisco, sometimes for business, | 当我在旧金山, 有时为生意, |
| 249 | she allow me to stay at her guest rooms. | 她允许我住在她的客房里 |
| 250 | And then it's like, see all the photos, all the events, | 然后它就像,看到所有的照片, 所有的事件, |
| 251 | all these things she was being through is like, | 她经历的这些事就像, |
| 252 | wow, all these history just in front of me. | 哇,所有这些历史 就在我面前。 |
| 253 | And then she's like, feels like a person in the traditional, | 然后,她喜欢,感觉 像个人在传统, |
| 254 | not traditional, but like in the Chinese Wuxia world, | 不是传统,而是像中国武夏世界 |
| 255 | she's like the one who's such a kind of big master. | 她就像一个 什么样的大主人。 |
| 256 | She doesn't need learn the moves. | 她不需要学习动作。 |
| 257 | She's like any moves that kind of be great. | 她就像任何动作 那种伟大的。 |
| 258 | So when we stay at her home, she was cooking like fishes | 所以,当我们呆在家里, 她做饭像鱼 |
| 259 | and she put like a shower cap on top of a fish | 她把像浴帽 在一个鱼的上面 |
| 260 | and put in the microwave and voila, | 然后放进微波炉和微波炉 |
| 261 | it's a great steamed fish. | 是一种伟大的蒸汽鱼。 |
| 262 | And all these little tricks is just plain, | 所有这些小把戏都很简单 |
| 263 | very simple cooking and all the dishes came so good. | 很简单的烹饪 和所有的菜都来了这么好。 |
| 264 | I was so lucky to have some dishes with her, | 我很幸运能和她一起洗碗 |
| 265 | cooking with her, Jajianmian as well. | 与她做饭,贾建美也。 |
| 266 | And sometimes, so yeah, I was like so impressed by her | 有时候,所以,是的, 我很喜欢她的印象 |
| 267 | about those simplicities and she's a very passionate | 关于这些缺陷 她是一个非常热情 |
| 268 | and she's also where like she treat people really well | 她也像她待人很好一样 |
| 269 | if she trusts you. | 如果她相信你的话 |
| 270 | And if you lost the trust, | 如果你失去信任的话 |
| 271 | she's also doesn't give a shit, that sort of person. | 她也不在乎这种人 |
| 272 | So you don't wanna cross her. | 所以,你不想过她。 |
| 273 | So yeah, that kind of person is like really, really | 所以,是的,这种人 像真的,真的 |
| 274 | kind of legend from this experience we have in close. | 这是一种传说 从这种经验 我们近距离。 |
| 275 | Yeah, and everybody that I've talked to | 是的,我和每个人谈过 |
| 276 | that's known her personally is just always beaming | 已经知道她个人总是在发光 |
| 277 | with how energetic and lively and friendly she is. | 她充满活力 充满活力和友善 |
| 278 | That's great. | 赞曰. |
| 279 | And both of you guys touched about sort of the role | 你们俩都摸到了这个角色 |
| 280 | that Cecilia had in changing Chinese cuisine in America. | 塞西莉亚在改变 在美国的中国菜肴。 |
| 281 | And so Paul, we can't really understand her impact | 所以保罗 我们无法真正理解她的影响 |
| 282 | and how groundbreaking her work was | 她的作品是多么开创性 |
| 283 | unless we think about the context | 除非我们考虑一下背景 |
| 284 | in which she was stepping into. | 她正走进其中 |
| 285 | So could you talk a little bit about the history | 你能谈谈历史吗? |
| 286 | of Chinese cuisine in America, | 美国的中国菜 |
| 287 | especially as it relates to how Chinese Americans | 特别是和美国华人的关系 |
| 288 | have been perceived in the US | 在美国已经意识到 |
| 289 | and how food has always been used as a tool | 以及如何将食物作为工具 |
| 290 | for good and bad, | 不论好坏, |
| 291 | whether it's for Chinese cuisine or other cuisines | 无论是中国菜还是其他菜 |
| 292 | from Asia or other ethnic foods in America. | 来自亚洲或美国其他民族的食物。 |
| 293 | So, yeah. | 对 |
| 294 | Well, I think the starting point, | 我觉得起点是 |
| 295 | as I said before, is the late 19th century. | 正如我以前说过的,是19世纪后期。 |
| 296 | Americans liked to experiment with other people's foods. | 美国人喜欢用别人的食物做实验. |
| 297 | The three most popular cuisines | 三个最受欢迎的菜 |
| 298 | that what might be called generic Americans patronized | 可以说是美国通用的 |
| 299 | were Mexican, Chinese, and Italian. | 是墨西哥人、中国人和意大利人 |
| 300 | And these restaurants were originally opened | 这些餐厅原来是开的 |
| 301 | for the immigrant community, | 为移民社区, |
| 302 | but beginning with the same kind of urban young people | 但从同样的城市年轻人开始 |
| 303 | who are, you know, kind of have a few ties, | 他们,你知道, 有点有几条联系, |
| 304 | financial or familial that tie them down | 经济或家庭将她们捆绑起来 |
| 305 | and like to experiment. | 喜欢做实验 |
| 306 | These are the first American patrons of foreign restaurants. | 这些是外国餐馆的第一批美国赞助商. |
| 307 | And this was a development characteristic | 这是发展的一个特征 |
| 308 | of the United States | 美国常驻联合国代表 |
| 309 | at least a hundred years before most other countries. | 至少比大多数其他国家早一百年 |
| 310 | I mean, obviously now everywhere you go, | 我的意思是,很明显,现在无论你走到哪里, |
| 311 | there's sushi and burritos and panini and pizza, | 有寿司、布瑞托斯、潘尼尼和比萨饼 |
| 312 | but Americans were the first ones to experiment. | 但美国人是第一个进行实验的人 |
| 313 | That did not mean that they was because Americans | 这并不意味着他们是因为美国人 |
| 314 | were particularly tolerant. | 特别宽容。 |
| 315 | The wild popularity of Chinese food | 中国菜的流行 |
| 316 | coincides with harsh restrictions on immigration | 与对移民的严格限制相吻合 |
| 317 | and discrimination against the Chinese | 对中国人的歧视 |
| 318 | who were already in the United States, | 他们已经在美国, |
| 319 | barring them from all sorts of jobs and enterprises. | 禁止她们从事各种工作和企业。 |
| 320 | So unfortunately, much as we'd like to believe | 很遗憾,我们非常希望 |
| 321 | that food is a bridge between peoples, | 食物是各国人民之间的桥梁, |
| 322 | it's not sufficient in itself. | 这本身是不够的。 |
| 323 | It's perfectly possible right now today | 今天绝对有可能 |
| 324 | for somebody to love Mexican food | 让别人喜欢墨西哥菜 |
| 325 | and to be all for building a wall | 和所有为建造一堵墙 |
| 326 | to keep Mexican people out of the United States. | 让墨西哥人远离美国 |
| 327 | So this phenomenon kind of characterized a lot | 因此,这个现象的特征很多 |
| 328 | of the relationship between Chinese restaurant owners | 中国餐馆老板之间的关系 |
| 329 | and the public. | 与大众. |
| 330 | The American public loved what they saw | 美国公众喜欢他们看到的 |
| 331 | as exoticism of Chinese food. | 作为中国食品的异国主义. |
| 332 | They liked certain kinds of flavors | 他们喜欢某种味道 |
| 333 | that were unavailable in the American or European food, | 在美国或欧洲食品中找不到的 |
| 334 | but Chinese food had to be adjusted to American tastes. | 但中国菜必须适应美国的口味 |
| 335 | That meant, for example, | 这意味着,例如, |
| 336 | that a lot of the sauces were like gravy. | 很多酱汁就像肉汁 |
| 337 | They were thicker. | 他们更厚。 |
| 338 | The stir-fried effect was for the vegetables, | 搅拌炉是给蔬菜的 |
| 339 | but then it would be covered with a kind of thicker sauce. | 但它会覆盖 一种更厚的酱汁。 |
| 340 | The American and English term stir-fried | 美英两词的搅拌 |
| 341 | doesn't even exist until 1940. | 连1940年都不存在 |
| 342 | People who were not Chinese | 不是中国人的人 |
| 343 | didn't really understand the principles of Chinese cuisine | 不懂中国菜的原理 |
| 344 | and the most basic kinds of aspects of cooking. | 以及烹饪中最基本的方面 |
| 345 | So Americans were already not fond of organ meat | 所以美国人已经不喜欢器官肉了 |
| 346 | or nether parts of animals. | 或动物的部分。 |
| 347 | So things like chicken feet or tripe were not popular. | 所以鸡脚或绊脚石等东西并不流行. |
| 348 | A lot of dishes had bigger pieces of meat. | 很多菜都有更大的肉块. |
| 349 | The food was sweeter. | 食物比较甜。 |
| 350 | What would be supposedly sweet and sour in America | 在美国,什么是所谓的甜和酸 |
| 351 | to this day really is just sweet and forget the sour. | 直到今天,真的只是甜 并忘记酸。 |
| 352 | So the restaurant owners knew how to make these adjustments. | 所以餐厅老板知道如何做出这些调整. |
| 353 | They cooked a cuisine that resembled that | 他们煮的菜很类似 |
| 354 | of where they came from. | 他们来自哪里? |
| 355 | Most of them were from the Pearl River Delta | 大部分来自珠江三角洲 |
| 356 | from more or less Xiamen and that part of Guangdong. | 或多或少地来自厦门和广东的那一带. |
| 357 | Later, after the immigration laws were, | 后来,在移民法之后, |
| 358 | the discriminatory laws were ended in 1965, | 歧视性法律于1965年结束, |
| 359 | most of the Chinese immigration | 大部分中国移民 |
| 360 | and particularly immigrants | 特别是移民 |
| 361 | who went into the restaurant business were from Fujian. | 进入餐厅生意的人是福建人 |
| 362 | The American attitude towards foreign food | 美国对外国食品的态度 |
| 363 | oscillates between a desire for more authentic. | 吞噬着对更真实的渴望 |
| 364 | So Americans discover, | 所以美国人发现, |
| 365 | spaghetti and meatballs is not really Italian | 意大利面和肉丸不是意大利面 |
| 366 | or chop suey or chow mein is not really Chinese. | 或切肉,或切肉,或切肉,米仁 其实不是中国。 |
| 367 | But they still, | 但他们仍然, |
| 368 | they don't really necessarily want the authentic | 他们不一定想要真品 |
| 369 | and Yong can talk more with more expertise and experience | 和勇用更多的专门知识和经验可以多谈些事情 |
| 370 | than I can ever muster about this dynamic between | 我永远无法唤起 关于这种动态 |
| 371 | what Americans like, what they think they like, | 美国人喜欢什么,他们认为什么, |
| 372 | what they could be taught to like and what they don't like. | 他们可以学会喜欢什么 不喜欢什么 |
| 373 | And this is also the way in which Cecilia Chang, | 这也是塞西莉亚·张的方式 |
| 374 | other restaurateurs opened restaurants | 其他餐馆开业 |
| 375 | that had a more regional or varied set of flavors. | 具有更多区域或多种口味。 |
| 376 | So not just Cantonese, but the other, | 不只是广东话,还有另一个 |
| 377 | many at least of the other regions of China. | 至少在中国的其他地区。 |
| 378 | There was a vogue for Northern Chinese food, | 北中国菜有种风味 |
| 379 | probably the most successful was Sichuan food, Hunan. | 最成功的可能是四川菜,湖南菜. |
| 380 | But these things also have their inauthentic qualities | 但是这些东西也有其不真实的特质 |
| 381 | and it's probably futile to distinguish absolutely | 绝对区分是徒劳的 |
| 382 | between authentic and inauthentic. | 在真实和不真实之间 |
| 383 | I've heard people say that Chinese American food | 我听到有人说美国华人菜 |
| 384 | is its own cuisine. | 这是它自己的菜肴。 |
| 385 | It's just another kind of Chinese food, | 这是另一种中国菜 |
| 386 | just like Chinese Peruvian food or Chinese Indian food. | 就像中国秘鲁菜或者中国印度菜 |
| 387 | But certainly there has been a consistent tension | 但肯定一直紧张 |
| 388 | between the desire for authenticity, | 在对真实性的渴望之间 |
| 389 | which is often reflected by regionalism | 区域主义往往反映了这一点。 |
| 390 | and the desire for things like General Tso's chicken, | 以及索将军的鸡肉之类欲望 |
| 391 | which is, I mean, it was invented by someone | 我的意思是,这是由某人发明的 |
| 392 | from originally from Hunan, | 来自湖南 |
| 393 | but there's a wonderful scene in the movie, | 但电影中有一个精彩的场景, |
| 394 | the search for General Tso, | 寻找特索将军 |
| 395 | which is a documentary really about not only | 这是一部纪录片 不仅关于 |
| 396 | this particularly odd and popular dish in the United States, | 美国特别奇特和流行的菜 |
| 397 | but what it means to be a Chinese restaurateur | 但做中国的修士意味着什么 |
| 398 | in the U.S. | 在美国。 |
| 399 | And they have a scene, | 他们有一个场景, |
| 400 | there's a museum, I understand, in Hunan | 据我所知,湖南有个博物馆 |
| 401 | for the real General Tso. | 为真正的将军特索。 |
| 402 | And they interview people coming out and ask them about, | 他们采访了出来问他们 |
| 403 | do you know that General Tso is, | 你知道特索将军是 |
| 404 | there's a popular dish in the United States named after it. | 在美国有一个流行的菜肴以它命名. |
| 405 | And everybody knows it. | 每个人都知道这一点。 |
| 406 | And most of them are angry and irritated about it. | 而多数人对此感到愤怒和烦恼. |
| 407 | How dare they or what the hell is this? | 他们怎么敢,这到底是什么? |
| 408 | So, that's a kind of perfect epitome | 所以,这是一种完美的缩写 |
| 409 | of the funnier aspect of American reception of Chinese food. | 更有趣的方面 美国接受中国食物。 |
| 410 | Can I add to that? | 我能补充吗? |
| 411 | Yeah, please, absolutely. | 是的,请,绝对。 |
| 412 | So, I think my perspective is different from Paul | 所以我觉得我的看法和保罗不同 |
| 413 | because when I came to U.S. when I was 21, | 因为我21岁来美国的时候 |
| 414 | so, which means we came to first get in touch | 也就是说我们先联系一下 |
| 415 | with the Chinese food America, | 与中国食品美国, |
| 416 | American Chinese food, | 美国中国菜 |
| 417 | I was like, I was first reaction of what the hell is this? | 我当时想,我是第一个反应 这到底是什么? |
| 418 | It tastes so bad, right? | 味道好难吃,对吧? |
| 419 | And I was dying for looking for something more authentic. | 我为寻找更真实的东西而死 |
| 420 | But I've grown in years, I learned the histories | 但我已经长大多年, 我学会了历史 |
| 421 | and learned all these different things about it. | 并学习了所有这些不同的东西。 |
| 422 | So, we started to really understand the cuisines, | 所以,我们开始真正理解 烹饪, |
| 423 | especially from Paul's books. | 特别是保罗的书 |
| 424 | There is a kind of interesting framework | 有一个有趣的框架 |
| 425 | I started putting in thinking about Chinese food. | 我开始考虑中国菜 |
| 426 | So, think about cultural loss and translation. | 所以,考虑一下文化损失和翻译. |
| 427 | So, think about Chinese culture in China, | 所以,想想中国的文化, |
| 428 | the contents like say university level. | 内容如大学水平。 |
| 429 | So, if you're a graduate from college | 如果你是大学毕业生 |
| 430 | or a professor from college, | 或大学教授, |
| 431 | and you go to a place where only primary school is available. | 而你去一个只有小学的地方 |
| 432 | So, you have to teach the kids in five years old | 所以,你必须教孩子 在5岁 |
| 433 | about what to learn in a university. | 大学里要学什么 |
| 434 | And then everything you want to teach is gonna be different. | 然则欲教一切如来不同. |
| 435 | Like the way the teaching is gonna learn | 就像教书的方法 |
| 436 | what they can learn from, what they can hear from you, | 他们能学到什么, 他们能听到你, |
| 437 | the word they know, the vocabulary they know. | 他们知道的词汇 |
| 438 | So, the fundamental flavors for the people, | 所以,对于人们来说,基本风味, |
| 439 | no matter, they don't need any acquisition, | 无论如何,他们不需要任何收购, |
| 440 | acquired taste we call it, like such as in Chinese food. | 尝起来像中国菜一样 |
| 441 | If a kid want to taste some sugar, | 如果一个孩子想尝尝糖 |
| 442 | no matter how little he is, he gonna love it. | 不管他有多小 他都会喜欢的 |
| 443 | Sugar, fat, salt, those flavors, | 糖 脂肪 盐 那些味道 |
| 444 | savory is a kind of a non-acquisition, | 喜欢是一种非收购, |
| 445 | acquire needed kind of flavors. | 获得所需的口味。 |
| 446 | Those flavors can translate much easier across the world, | 这些口味可以让世界变易得多 |
| 447 | no matter what kind of cuisine you are. | 不管你是什么样的菜 |
| 448 | And the shape, you look at the shapes, | 和形状,你看形状, |
| 449 | the shape of popular America, | 受欢迎的美国形状, |
| 450 | those shape of the symmetric shapes, | 那些对称的形状, |
| 451 | like pizza, salad, burritos, wraps, all these things, | 像比萨饼,沙拉,卷饼,包装,所有这些东西, |
| 452 | burgers, they look very simple and easy to understand. | 汉堡,它们看起来非常简单,容易理解. |
| 453 | You can see what's inside and also a simple ingredients. | 你可以看到里面的东西, 和简单的成分。 |
| 454 | So, those are kind of a perfect, | 所以,这些都是一种完美的, |
| 455 | we can call it a primary school level of food. | 我们可以称之为小学一级的食物。 |
| 456 | Simple flavors and simple way of eating. | 简单的口味和简单的饮食方式。 |
| 457 | No matter where you go, those food are easy to translate. | 无论你去哪里 这些食物很容易翻译 |
| 458 | For Chinese food, because so much thing we have right now, | 对于中国菜, 因为这么多的东西,我们现在, |
| 459 | from our knowledge in this audience, | 从我们的知识 在这个观众, |
| 460 | and there's some Chinese food more than at university level, | 有些中国菜比大学还多 |
| 461 | and then when you talk about Chinese food, | 然后当你谈论中国食物, |
| 462 | it's totally different from a perspective | 从一个角度来说是完全不同的 |
| 463 | of different audience in different countries. | 不同国家不同受众。 |
| 464 | The same thing happened to culture come to the China as well. | 文化也发生在中国。 |
| 465 | Like if you, most people learn like Indian food, | 像你,大多数人学习 像印度食物, |
| 466 | they probably only knows curry, | 他们可能只知道咖喱, |
| 467 | or some like the pancakes or something like that, | 或者像煎饼之类的东西 |
| 468 | but they don't know like the nuances | 但他们不知道 像细微差别 |
| 469 | or what the detail from the Northern, Southern, | 或者北方和南方的详情 |
| 470 | they don't have the bandwidth of communication. | 他们没有通讯带宽 |
| 471 | Then if we look at the bandwidth of communication, | 然后如果我们看看通信的带宽, |
| 472 | that's a key of cultural communication. | 那是文化交流的关键 |
| 473 | You always start from little | 你总是从小开始 |
| 474 | and you start earning more and more bandwidth. | 你开始获得越来越多的带宽。 |
| 475 | So, Italian cuisine earn those bandwidth from meatballs, | 因此,意大利菜从肉丸中赚取这些带宽, |
| 476 | but then when the country get richer, | 但当国家变得富裕时, |
| 477 | and then there's a cultural leader start to expand | 文化领袖开始扩张 |
| 478 | the bandwidth communication, | 带宽通信, |
| 479 | but like happened same time for Japanese cuisine as well. | 但是日本菜也是一样 |
| 480 | Right, because Sushi, Cecilia once mentioned, | 对 因为苏希 塞西莉亚曾提到 |
| 481 | when she was in Japan in the 60s, | 她六十年代在日本的时候 |
| 482 | there was no Japanese cuisine at all. | 根本没有日本菜 |
| 483 | All the food that post second world war is like low quality | 第二次世界大战后的所有食物都像低质量 |
| 484 | because Japan was very poor, kind of rebuilding themselves. | 因为日本非常贫穷, 一种重建自己。 |
| 485 | So, and then out of 40 years, | 所以,然后40年后, |
| 486 | all the Japanese cuisine becomes such high-end stuff | 所有日本菜都这么高档 |
| 487 | because Japanese lifestyle become more attractive. | 因为日本的生活方式变得更有吸引力。 |
| 488 | The same thing happened right now | 现在也一样 |
| 489 | to Chinese culture as well. | 对中国文化也是如此 |
| 490 | So, like what we've seen from like past 10 years | 所以,就像我们从过去10年中看到的一样 |
| 491 | about Chinese product change so significantly. | 关于中国产品如此显著的变化。 |
| 492 | Like there's so much better stuff | 像有这么多更好的东西 |
| 493 | right now happening in China, | 现在发生在中国, |
| 494 | like in the world because people don't know, | 像在世界上 因为人们不知道, |
| 495 | but when they know it, | 当他们知道的时候, |
| 496 | they understand they have a bandwidth and learn from it. | 他们知道他们有带宽 并从中吸取教训 |
| 497 | They'll be like, wow, this is awesome. | 他们会像,哇,这是真棒。 |
| 498 | That can happen. | 这可能会发生。 |
| 499 | So, from our vision is we wanna establish brands, | 因此,从我们的愿景是 我们要建立品牌, |
| 500 | establish kind of frameworks of communication, | 建立各种交流框架, |
| 501 | stories, narratives to be able to expand these narratives | 故事,叙事 能够扩展这些叙事 |
| 502 | so that we can tell stories. | 这样我们可以讲故事。 |
| 503 | But you cannot just think about, okay, | 但你不能只考虑,好吗, |
| 504 | I'm gonna really tell high school level story | 我真的要讲高中的故事 |
| 505 | to primary school level | 小学阶段 |
| 506 | because you can do that kind of a graduation | 因为你可以毕业 |
| 507 | step-by-step things. | 渐渐的事物。 |
| 508 | So, that's kind of how we think every step we're taking | 所以,这就是我们如何思考 我们的每一步 |
| 509 | from our food or design, the product design, | 从我们的食物或设计, 产品设计, |
| 510 | branding design, it's based on the principles, | 品牌设计,它是基于原则, |
| 511 | understand the audience at their level, | 了解观众的水平, |
| 512 | understand your Chinese culture, | 理解你的中国文化, |
| 513 | and do a little bit of education, | 并做一点点的教育, |
| 514 | but don't do too much, | 但别做太多 |
| 515 | but utilize that kind of knowledge | 但利用这种知识 |
| 516 | to our advantage to bring food better, experience better. | 给我们带来更好的食物 更好的体验 |
| 517 | So far, like from the kitchen over now, | 到目前为止,就像现在从厨房, |
| 518 | it's the Chinese who have a two brand right now. | 是中国人现在有两个品牌 |
| 519 | All of them is gonna probably highest review | 他们都可能会接受最高审查 |
| 520 | Chinese restaurant brands in the US | 美国的中国餐馆品牌 |
| 521 | because in the US market, | 因为在美国市场, |
| 522 | Chinese food usually be considered as a cheap, | 中国菜通常被认为是廉价的, |
| 523 | a low quality, like just no design, dirty kind of a food. | 低品质,就像没有设计, 肮脏的食物。 |
| 524 | So, it's almost everything's like | 所以,它几乎是一切一样, |
| 525 | in the worst national level in China, | 在中国最差的国家一级, |
| 526 | just that kind of level, | 只是那种水平, |
| 527 | but it's very accessible. | 但它是非常无障碍的。 |
| 528 | Everybody knows, everybody understand how to eat it. | 大家都知道,每个人都明白怎么吃 |
| 529 | So, if you kind of think about this perspective | 所以,如果你考虑一下这个观点 |
| 530 | of a food as vocabulary, | 以食物为词汇, |
| 531 | like Japanese food has sushi, right? | 像日本菜有寿司,对不对? |
| 532 | You learn this word, learn this word and learn the food. | 你学这个字,学这个字,学食物. |
| 533 | So, Chinese food is one of the largest vocabulary of food | 所以,中国菜是最大的词汇之一 |
| 534 | in the US about ethnic food. | 在美国,关于种族食物。 |
| 535 | So, like Italian food, Japanese food | 就像意大利菜,日本菜一样 |
| 536 | has those kinds of large vocabulary, | 有这些种类的大词汇, |
| 537 | like Chinese has a huge vocabulary. | 就像汉语词汇很繁多 |
| 538 | People learn like wonton, stir fry, wok, dumplings, | 人们学的像云顿,搅拌油炸,wok,饺子, |
| 539 | all these things about it. | 这一切的事情。 |
| 540 | But in the meantime, | 但与此同时, |
| 541 | compared to what's the real Chinese food potential can be, | 比起真正的中国食物潜力 |
| 542 | it's like only for represent like less than 5% or something. | 就像只是代表不到5%什么的一样 |
| 543 | There's so much more. | 还有很多 |
| 544 | So, that kind of difference is where the real gap is, | 所以,这种区别 就是真正的差距在哪里, |
| 545 | also where the real potential is. | 以及真正的潜力所在。 |
| 546 | That's where we're passionate about | 这就是我们充满激情的地方 |
| 547 | kind of establish a new model for Chinese food, | 一种中国食品的新模式, |
| 548 | be able to make Chinese food independent from the immigrants | 能够使中国食物独立于移民 |
| 549 | who's flee from China because of poverty. | 他因为贫穷而逃离中国 |
| 550 | Because right now, China basically eliminate poverty. | 因为现在,中国基本上消除贫困。 |
| 551 | So, there are no more immigrants go out China | 所以,中国没有移民了 |
| 552 | to cook Chinese food anymore. | 做中国菜了 |
| 553 | So, we have to kind of revise Chinese foods | 所以,我们得修改一下中国菜 |
| 554 | from a immigrant cooking Chinese food | 一个移民做的中国菜 |
| 555 | into a McDonald kind of level of, | 进入麦当劳一级, |
| 556 | you don't need Americans go out America to cook McDonald's. | 你不需要美国人去美国做麦当劳 |
| 557 | You just hire local people. | 你只是雇用当地人。 |
| 558 | But your brand is the culture, it's about American culture. | 但你的品牌是文化,它涉及美国文化. |
| 559 | So, we wanna establish what you mean | 所以,我们要确定你的意思 |
| 560 | by international Chinese food culture. | 由国际中餐文化. |
| 561 | It's gonna be different from the Chinese food culture | 和中国菜文化不同 |
| 562 | in China because there's so much gap. | 在中国,因为差距很大。 |
| 563 | But you're gonna establish a new textbook | 但你要建立一本新的教科书 |
| 564 | for the primary school level education with Chinese food. | 小学阶段用中餐教育。 |
| 565 | That's kind of what we're trying to do. | 这就是我们想做的 |
| 566 | That's amazing. | 这是惊人的。 |
| 567 | I mean, there's so much that we can talk about there. | 我的意思是,有很多 我们可以谈论在那里。 |
| 568 | I guess one real quick question, | 我想有一个非常快速的问题, |
| 569 | if you can just give me like a sentence answer. | 如果你能像句子一样给我答案 |
| 570 | Where do you think Americans are now | 你觉得美国人现在在哪里? |
| 571 | in terms of what level are we eating at? | 我们吃什么? |
| 572 | Are people eating still at an elementary school level? | 人们还在小学吃饭吗? |
| 573 | Or are we like, have people finally graduated | 还是我们喜欢 终于有人毕业了 |
| 574 | to high school? | 上高中吗? |
| 575 | No. | 没有 |
| 576 | And of course, you're in New York City. | 当然,你在纽约市。 |
| 577 | So, it's different than the rest of the country. | 故与别国不同. |
| 578 | So, if you can think about this, right. | 所以,如果你能考虑一下,没错。 |
| 579 | Like Singapore, those kind of general Chinese kind | 像新加坡那种普通的中国人 |
| 580 | of societies, those are like high school level | 社会,这些就像高中水平 |
| 581 | or like a senior high school level. | 或者像高中一样 |
| 582 | If you go to Chinatown in a well-developed immigrants | 如果有发达的移民去唐人街 |
| 583 | kind of crowd, such as Flushing in New York, | 那种人群,例如纽约的Flashing, |
| 584 | like LA, those can be like middle school level. | 和洛杉矶一样,那些可以像中学水平。 |
| 585 | And most of Park America is like elementary school level | 美国公园大部分地区都像小学一样 |
| 586 | or even just first grade level. | 甚至是一年级 |
| 587 | Because there was a lot of research done | 因为做了很多研究 |
| 588 | by Panda Express before. | 由熊猫快车之前。 |
| 589 | The Panda Express, one of the iconic Chinese food brand | 熊猫快车,标志性的中国食品品牌之一 |
| 590 | in U.S. setting, basically Swiss hour chickens, the stuff. | 在美国环境,基本上 瑞士小时鸡,东西。 |
| 591 | So, in the middle America, like where most like, | 所以在美国中部 像最喜欢的地方 |
| 592 | Trump support a part of America, the red countries, right. | 特朗普支持美国的一部分,红色国家,对. |
| 593 | They basically, they're culturally relatively less traveled. | 他们基本上在文化上比较少旅行. |
| 594 | So, they think Panda Express authentic Chinese food. | 因此,他们认为熊猫快餐是真实的中国食品. |
| 595 | But in the West Coast, East Coast, | 但在西海岸,东海岸, |
| 596 | where those kind of blue states, liberal people, right. | 那种蓝色的州, 自由人民,正确的。 |
| 597 | They are more economic, have more advantages | 他们更经济,更有利 |
| 598 | and they have travel more, more cultural communication. | 他们有更多的旅行, 更多的文化交流。 |
| 599 | They think Panda is not authentic. | 他们认为熊猫不是真人 |
| 600 | So, because there are more immigrants also, | 所以,因为有更多的移民, |
| 601 | they understand, learn the word more. | 他们理解, 学习更多的词。 |
| 602 | So, that's what they think the difference | 所以,他们是这么认为的 |
| 603 | is between different part of the world. | 处于世界不同地区之间。 |
| 604 | So, you see a lot of brand in China, like Yunhai Yao, | 所以,你看到很多品牌在中国, 像云海姚, |
| 605 | those kind of brand in Singapore was pretty successful. | 这些品牌在新加坡相当成功。 |
| 606 | And also a lot of brand in like Japan's | 还有日本的很多品牌 |
| 607 | kind of successful because it'd be more authentic. | 那种成功的,因为它会更真实。 |
| 608 | But the same level of authenticity come to the U.S. | 但同样程度的真实性也来到了美国. |
| 609 | probably not gonna be authentic | 可能不会是真的 |
| 610 | because nobody understand it. | 因为没人能理解 |
| 611 | So, that's the differences. | 所以,这就是区别。 |
| 612 | So, you have two very large and complicated countries | 所以,你有两个非常大和复杂的国家 |
| 613 | exchanging cultures. | 交流文化。 |
| 614 | So, obviously there's gonna be a lot of room | 所以,显然会有 很多房间 |
| 615 | for a difference there. | 因为那里不同 |
| 616 | Paul, we were talking about regionalism | 保罗,我们说的是区域主义 |
| 617 | and region specific foods. | 和特定地区的食品。 |
| 618 | And we see in places like New York, | 我们在纽约等地看到 |
| 619 | where it's almost a fad where you have to collect | 在那里它几乎是一个时尚 你必须收集 |
| 620 | as many of these hyper regional restaurants. | 和这些超级区域餐馆一样 |
| 621 | I've been to that place. | 我去过那个地方 |
| 622 | Oh, have you tried this dish? | 你试过这个菜吗? |
| 623 | And there's this sort of obsession | 还有这种痴迷 |
| 624 | with collecting these exotic restaurants and foods. | 收集这些异国餐馆和食物。 |
| 625 | And so, on the one hand, that's great | 所以,一方面,这是伟大的 |
| 626 | that people are branching out | 人们正在分化 |
| 627 | and they're able to sort of understand more | 他们能理解更多 |
| 628 | about the intricacies of different cuisines. | 关于不同菜肴的复杂之处。 |
| 629 | But on the other hand, it plays right back | 但另一方面,它会弹回来 |
| 630 | into these stereotypes of exotification | 将这种陈规定型的排他性观念纳入其中 |
| 631 | and this idea of perpetual otherness, right? | 和这个永远的异性的想法,对不对? |
| 632 | Where if you're eating this food, | 如果你正在吃这些食物, |
| 633 | you're never part of America, | 你从来不是美国的一部分, |
| 634 | you're this weird other culture. | 你是一个奇怪的其他文化。 |
| 635 | So, can you talk more about this exotification | 所以,你能多说说这种排泄物吗? |
| 636 | and objectification of food | 食品的商品化 |
| 637 | and how that sort of plays into how race relations | 以及那种种族关系 |
| 638 | works out in America? | 在美国工作? |
| 639 | Yeah, it's not only a search for authenticity, | 是的,这不仅仅是 寻找真实性, |
| 640 | but a worry about, it's a competition with other people. | 但担心的是,这是与其他人的竞争。 |
| 641 | So, it's not just I as a food adventurer | 所以,不只是我作为一个食物冒险家 |
| 642 | have found a place that serves the cuisine of Yunnan | 找到了一个为云南美食服务的地方 |
| 643 | or Manchuria and Dongbo cuisine. | 或满洲和东波菜. |
| 644 | But that I was the only person who didn't speak Chinese | 但我是唯一一个不会说中文的人 |
| 645 | or there were no tourists | 或没有游客 |
| 646 | or, oh, that place that you go to, | 或者,哦,那个地方,你去, |
| 647 | that Taiwanese restaurant, | 那个台湾餐厅 |
| 648 | that's nobody goes there anymore, that that's spoiled. | 没人再去那儿了 这太糟了 |
| 649 | Investment bankers go there, right? | 投资银行家去那里,对不对? |
| 650 | That's a mark of people from the suburbs go there. | 郊外的人会去那里 |
| 651 | That's a mark of it being ruined. | 这是它被破坏的标志。 |
| 652 | So, that kind of competitiveness means | 所以,这种竞争力意味着 |
| 653 | that restaurants get points for otherness | 餐厅得到的分 其他的 |
| 654 | and sometimes they manipulate this. | 有时候他们会操纵这个 |
| 655 | For a while, the chain, a very successful little chain | 有一段时间,链条, 一个非常成功的小链条 |
| 656 | called Xian Famous Foods that had | 叫做西安著名食品 |
| 657 | Western Chinese food, particularly noodles, | 西洋菜,尤其是面条 |
| 658 | made a point of hiring cashiers at its places | 使出纳员在自己的位置上 |
| 659 | where you just took out food stands. | 你刚刚拿了食物摊 |
| 660 | Cashiers who didn't speak English | 不说英语的出纳员 |
| 661 | except that they could understand numbers | 但他们能理解数字 |
| 662 | because numbers are really important | 因为数字很重要 |
| 663 | because that was more authentic. | 因为这更真实 |
| 664 | I mean, they could have found people who spoke English, | 我的意思是,他们可以找到的人 谁说英语, |
| 665 | but the little inconveniences of negotiating | 但谈判的不便 |
| 666 | would be better, would be a mark of authenticity. | 这将是更好的,将是真实性的标志。 |
| 667 | Or there's a Salvadorian food stands | 或者有萨尔瓦多的食品摊 |
| 668 | that served the sort of iconic dish of Salvador, | 服务于萨尔瓦多的标志性菜肴, |
| 669 | which is a, is it pupusa? | 是阿,是普鲁萨吗? |
| 670 | Is that what it's called, Devin, right? | 这就是所谓的,德文,对不对? |
| 671 | It's sort of a burrito-like, turnover-like thing. | 它有点像卷饼, 周转的东西。 |
| 672 | And she was interviewed by an anthropologist | 她接受了人类学家的采访 |
| 673 | or an ethnographer or a food expert. | 或民族学家或食品专家。 |
| 674 | And she said, back home in Salvador, | 她说,在萨尔瓦多, |
| 675 | these would not, these would just be meat or beans, | 这些不会,这些只是肉或豆子, |
| 676 | not vegetables, never put vegetables in it. | 不是蔬菜,从来不放蔬菜 |
| 677 | But blanquitos like vegetables, | 但布兰基托喜欢蔬菜, |
| 678 | blanquitos),西班牙对白人的diminutive名词. | |
| 679 | White people like vegetables, so what the hell? | 白人喜欢蔬菜,那又怎样? |
| 680 | But the fact that she didn't really speak English, | 但事实上她不会说英语 |
| 681 | that she has a food stand, that it's in Red Hook, | 她有一个食物摊, 它在红钩, |
| 682 | a neighborhood that was at the time dicey, | 一个在当时很不幸的邻居 |
| 683 | difficult to get to, slightly dangerous, | 很难到达,有点危险, |
| 684 | made the food authentic. | 食物是真实的。 |
| 685 | So yeah, there is a comical but unpleasant side | 所以,是的,有一个 滑稽但令人不快的一面 |
| 686 | to a lot of this. | 有很多这样的。 |
| 687 | And now there's a sort of a discovery | 现在有种发现 |
| 688 | on the part of a lot of readers of The New Yorker | 《纽约客》的读者 |
| 689 | or sophisticated urbanites that, oh my gosh, | 或精密的都市人, 哦,我的天哪, |
| 690 | there is this sort of process of othering the immigrant | 有这种 异于移民的过程 |
| 691 | or of, I mean, it's kind of like a discovery | 或者,我的意思是,它有点像一个发现 |
| 692 | of something that's always been there. | 永远存在的东西。 |
| 693 | So maybe better late than never. | 所以也许迟到比永远好 |
| 694 | I think the term they use now is called Columbusing. | 我想他们现在使用的术语叫哥伦布 |
| 695 | Okay, yeah, see, I'm just slow. | 好吧,是啊,你看,我只是缓慢。 |
| 696 | Yeah, yeah, but you discover something | 是啊,是啊,但你发现了一些东西 |
| 697 | that was already there. | 已经在那里了 |
| 698 | Always been there, exactly. | 一直在那里,没错。 |
| 699 | Right, right. | 对,对。 |
| 700 | But I think the only non-Columbus aspect | 但我认为唯一的非校车方面 |
| 701 | is that the people who were there actually, | 是当时在场的人, |
| 702 | in this case, arrange things for you. | 在此情况下,为您安排一些事情。 |
| 703 | The agency of the restaurateur | 修道院的代理人 |
| 704 | has been until recently underestimated. | 直到最近才被低估。 |
| 705 | These things were not just selected | 这些东西不只是被选中的 |
| 706 | by the generic American audience. | 由美国普通观众。 |
| 707 | They were proposed by restaurateurs | 是由工匠们提出的 |
| 708 | who invented certain things, | 他创造了许多事物, |
| 709 | just like the Japanese invented the California roll, | 就像日本人发明的加州卷, |
| 710 | which has no raw fish, | 没有生鱼的, |
| 711 | in order to introduce sushi to spremish Americans. | 为了介绍寿司 使美国人深受其害 |
| 712 | Devon, can I add to that as well? | 德文 我能再加点吗? |
| 713 | 是的,继续,Yony。 | |
| 714 | So, well, because our business | 因为我们的生意 |
| 715 | is trying to do something larger scale. | 试图做一个更大的规模。 |
| 716 | So when you look at the numbers in the US | 所以,当你看 数字在美国 |
| 717 | of 46,000 Chinese restaurants in the US, | 在美国的46,000个中国餐馆, |
| 718 | there's about a $30 billion market every year, | 每年有300亿美元的市场 |
| 719 | which means every Americans, every year, | 这意味着每个美国人,每年, |
| 720 | they can eat $100 worth of Chinese food. | 他们可以吃100块的中国食物 |
| 721 | Like 70% of them will eat Chinese food | 百分之七十的人吃中国菜 |
| 722 | at least once a month. | 至少一个月一次。 |
| 723 | So the majority part of Chinese food they're eating, | 所以他们吃的大部分中国食物 |
| 724 | they're in the cheap containers | 他们在廉价的容器里 |
| 725 | and from just immigrant families. | 和来自移民家庭。 |
| 726 | These are the majority part of the face of images | 这些是画面面部的大部分 |
| 727 | of Chinese culture and food and people. | 中国文化与食物与人民。 |
| 728 | And that's why when coronavirus happens, | 这就是为什么当冕病毒发生, |
| 729 | when people say China virus, | 当人们说中国病毒 |
| 730 | and the Chinese restaurant just have huge dip in their sales | 中餐馆的销量大增 |
| 731 | because the people just feel, | 因为人们只是觉得, |
| 732 | well, Chinese people there is like, | 中国人喜欢, |
| 733 | they're dangerous because we don't understand them, | 他们很危险,因为我们不了解他们 |
| 734 | all these different understanding. | 所有这些不同的理解。 |
| 735 | But in a city, it's a bit different | 但是在一个城市,它有点不同 |
| 736 | because when there is a mega city like New York, | 因为当有一个大城市 像纽约, |
| 737 | the cultural elites will have a totally different kind | 文化精英会有完全不同的种类 |
| 738 | of taste and sophisticated kind of nuanced understanding | 品味和精致的体会 |
| 739 | of culture and the food. | 文化和食物。 |
| 740 | And that part is so different from the countryside America, | 这部分与美国农村不同 |
| 741 | almost like filled a two total different country. | 几乎像填满了两个不同的国家。 |
| 742 | The other country, they don't care anything. | 彼国,则无所顾惜. |
| 743 | They don't give any details. | 他们不提供任何细节。 |
| 744 | They don't have any nuances. | 它们没有任何细微差别. |
| 745 | But in a city, like the more unique you are, the better. | 但是在城市里,你越是独一无二,就越好 |
| 746 | But then there could be two different kind of reality | 但后来可能有两个不同的现实 |
| 747 | for the restaurant to think. | 餐厅思考。 |
| 748 | They're gonna, cultural leaders want to do something unique | 他们要去,文化领袖 想做一些独特的事情 |
| 749 | in New York, but those things will never travel in the US | 在纽约,但那些东西 永远不会在美国旅行 |
| 750 | as a majority part of the US. | 成为美国的大多数 |
| 751 | So that's where we'll come back to this kind of bandwidth | 所以我们会回到这种带宽 |
| 752 | kind of a series. | 有点像系列。 |
| 753 | So we imagine if we can open 3000, 5000 locations | 所以,我们想象 如果我们能打开 3000,5000个位置 |
| 754 | and then every year there's every restaurant, | 然后每年都有餐厅 |
| 755 | there's at least like a hundred dollar per person | 每人至少有一百块 |
| 756 | kind of purchase to serve every restaurant serve | 一种购买服务 每一个餐厅服务 |
| 757 | like 10,000 people Americans. | 像一万美国人。 |
| 758 | That will be the most important kind of direct contact | 这将是最重要的一种直接接触 |
| 759 | of cultural communication with Chinese food culture | 与中国食品文化的文化交流 |
| 760 | in the future, because there are no kind of national level | 未来,因为没有国家一级 |
| 761 | communication be easy to do right now | 通讯现在很容易 |
| 762 | because all the contention | 因为所有的争论 |
| 763 | between the government and politics | 政府和政治之间 |
| 764 | and the other kind of form of communications is hard to do | 而另一种交流形式很难做到 |
| 765 | because closing, housing, traveling, all these things | 因为关闭,住房,旅行,所有这些事情 |
| 766 | it's so much higher cost than just grab a food | 这比拿食物要高得多 |
| 767 | for Chinese takeout. | 为中国外卖。 |
| 768 | So from that perspective, the understanding | 因此,从这个角度,理解 |
| 769 | of kind of open the bandwidth to kind of sometimes | 有时会打开带宽 |
| 770 | inherit these kind of stereotypical thought about it | 继承这种陈规定型的想法 |
| 771 | to create first like entry, easy entry for them | 以创建像条目一样的首字母,方便他们的条目 |
| 772 | and then start to pivot on the stories | 然后开始在故事中占据主导位置 |
| 773 | can develop the stories, the narratives. | 可以发展故事,叙事. |
| 774 | By the way, like you saw this all the story | 顺便说一句,就像你看到这一切的故事 |
| 775 | but I would tell the second chapter | 但我会告诉第二章 |
| 776 | or there's like 10 other chapters | 或者还有十章 |
| 777 | for people getting interested about it. | 对人们感兴趣 |
| 778 | That's a very important. | 这很重要 |
| 779 | So that's kind of one thing we've been trying to develop | 所以这就是我们一直在尝试开发的一件事 |
| 780 | about the narrative expansions. | 关于叙事扩张。 |
| 781 | I think what's been doing from the beginning is | 我想从一开始就一直在做 |
| 782 | in those era, her work is kind of very important | 在那个时代,她的工作很重要 |
| 783 | groundbreaking because changing narratives | 突破性,因为改变叙事 |
| 784 | of the bandwidth that people won't give to Chinese food | 带宽,人们不会给中国食物 |
| 785 | because before that Chinese food was just those | 因为之前的中国菜就是那些 |
| 786 | strange kind of topsoy stuff | 奇怪的东西 |
| 787 | that only the Bohemians will go | 只有波希米亚人会去 |
| 788 | urban like the Hibiscus will go | 像Hibiscus那样的城市会消失 |
| 789 | and the society has changed the image of that. | 社会已经改变了它的形象。 |
| 790 | And those places change the image | 这些地方改变了形象 |
| 791 | from the dirty places. | 从肮脏的地方。 |
| 792 | Cecilia said like the people serving the food | 塞西莉亚说,像人们为食物服务 |
| 793 | was like that there's something, the soup | 就像是有东西,汤 |
| 794 | because they don't care, right? | 因为他们不在乎,对不对? |
| 795 | Everybody's go to Chinese restaurant, | 大家都去中国餐厅 |
| 796 | they will know those server will serve their food | 他们会知道那些服务器会提供食物 |
| 797 | some in their soup because that's what you're gonna | 有些在他们的汤里 因为这就是你要去 |
| 798 | experience about those like in China | 在中国的经历 |
| 799 | called the Cangyin Guanzi or like those are dirty place | 叫做"坎吉因关西人"之类的地方很脏 |
| 800 | to go to for something, these dog experiences. | 这些狗的经历 |
| 801 | But Cecilia did bring, make a very decent like, | 但塞西莉亚确实带来了, 使一个非常体面的, |
| 802 | wow, like a real decent, real restaurant. | 哇,像一个真正的体面,真正的餐厅。 |
| 803 | So that's kind of one thing to change it. | 所以,这就是改变它的一种方式。 |
| 804 | It's almost feel like there's one people come | 感觉好像有人来了 |
| 805 | in China make like the famous mission star | 在中国 制造像著名的传教明星 |
| 806 | Sha Xian find dining place. | 夏仙找餐厅 |
| 807 | For people, oh my God, I never heard of that | 对于人们,哦,我的上帝, 我从没听说过 |
| 808 | but I'm convinced because of one revolutionary figure. | 但我相信是因为一个革命人物 |
| 809 | So that's like how hasn't changed. | 这就像如何没有改变。 |
| 810 | So that's, I mean, so we're really talking about two | 所以,我的意思是, 所以我们真的在谈论两个 |
| 811 | kind of different areas, right? | 有点不同 对吧? |
| 812 | But one is sort of this idea of like Americanized | 但有一个想法是像美国化 |
| 813 | Chinese food, that's like the comfort food, right? | 中国菜,这就像舒适食品,对不对? |
| 814 | And you guys have both mentioned that actually | 你们都提到过 |
| 815 | it's the most popular kind of type of restaurant in America. | 这是美国最受欢迎的餐馆类型 |
| 816 | And then we're also talking about sort of fine dining | 然后我们又在谈论 一种很好的晚餐 |
| 817 | and sort of pushing sort of cultural elites | 和那种推 某种文化精英 |
| 818 | or global elites, whatever you wanna call them | 或者全球精英,不管你想叫他们什么 |
| 819 | to understand more and experience more of this. | 了解更多,体验更多 |
| 820 | Sorry, wait for this siren to go by. | 抱歉,等这个警笛响了再说 |
| 821 | So- | 所以说... |
| 822 | We can hear you. | 我们可以听到你。 |
| 823 | Okay, all right. | 好吧,没事。 |
| 824 | So I guess I wanna talk a little bit about this idea | 所以我想谈谈这个主意 |
| 825 | of fine dining and food criticism and restaurant guides. | 美餐和食物批评 和餐厅指南。 |
| 826 | It's interesting because in the US, in say California | 这很有趣 因为在美国 加利福尼亚州 |
| 827 | the Michelin guide decided, we can't give out a guide | 米其林指南决定了 我们不能给出一个指南 |
| 828 | this year because of the pandemic. | 今年,由于这种流行病。 |
| 829 | But actually last month in Shanghai, they just came out | 但实际上上个月在上海 他们刚出来 |
| 830 | with a new Michelin guide and ever since the Michelin guide | 从米其林指南开始 |
| 831 | has come out in China, maybe I think about three years ago | 来中国了,也许三年前 |
| 832 | everybody's obsessed with hunting stars. | 每个人都沉迷于猎星 |
| 833 | And I guess that's a worldwide phenomenon. | 我想这是一个世界性的现象。 |
| 834 | But, and the restaurants are obsessed | 但是,餐馆都痴迷于 |
| 835 | with kind of trying to obtain these stars. | 试图获得这些恒星 |
| 836 | At the same time, you have a lot of people on the web saying | 同时,网络上有很多人说 |
| 837 | like, wait a minute, like, what kind of list is this? | 等等,这是什么名单? |
| 838 | Like no Chinese person thinks any of these restaurants | 像没有中国人认为这些餐馆 |
| 839 | are like the best in the city, right? | 简直是全市最好的 对吧? |
| 840 | So there's this kind of tension with the way you have | 所以有这种紧张 你的方式 |
| 841 | that's a result of these conflicting tastes | 这是这些相互矛盾的味道的结果 |
| 842 | as a result of this global elite culture. | 由于这种全球精英文化. |
| 843 | So Paul, we've talked a lot about Michelin guides | 保罗,我们谈了很多米其林指南 |
| 844 | and restaurant rankings and things like that in the past | 和餐馆的排名和 类似的事情过去 |
| 845 | but I think people in China perhaps are a little less | 但我认为中国的人也许少一点 |
| 846 | familiar with it. | 熟识此经. |
| 847 | So do you wanna just sort of lay on the table | 你想躺在桌子上吗? |
| 848 | sort of all the different kinds of thoughts | 一种不同的想法 |
| 849 | that are out there and also, you know, especially | 而且,你知道,特别是 |
| 850 | how it relates to this Chinese market that's emerging? | 这与这个正在兴起的中国市场有什么关系? |
| 851 | The Michelin guide from years and years was just France | 年复一年的米其林指南只是法国 |
| 852 | and maybe extended a little bit to Belgium, to Italy. | 并可能延伸一点点 比利时,意大利。 |
| 853 | It worked well when there was sort of one dominant cuisine. | 当有某种占优势的烹饪时,它效果很好。 |
| 854 | So I have a 1965 Michelin guide for France. | 我有一个1965年的Michelin法国指南。 |
| 855 | And if you look at Paris alone, | 如果你独自看着巴黎 |
| 856 | there are about 270 restaurants | 大约有270家餐厅 |
| 857 | and 258 of them are French. | 其中258人是法国人。 |
| 858 | I mean, they don't say French restaurant | 我的意思是,他们不说法国餐馆 |
| 859 | and there's some variation. | 并有一些变化。 |
| 860 | Some have Alsatian food, | 有些人有阿尔萨蒂安的食物, |
| 861 | some have more Mediterranean Provencal food | 有些人有更多的地中海 检验食品 |
| 862 | but there's one Chinese restaurant, | 但有一个中国餐馆, |
| 863 | maybe two North African Vietnamese place | 也许两个北非越南人的地方 |
| 864 | because at that time French people went | 因为那时法国人去了 |
| 865 | to French restaurants. | 去法国餐馆 |
| 866 | And that was the whole point of being French. | 这就是法国人的全部观点。 |
| 867 | So the same in Italy. | 意大利也一样 |
| 868 | You can do a ranking very effectively | 你可以做一个非常有效的排名 |
| 869 | if everybody is serving more or less a dossier of dishes | 如果每个人都在服务 或多或少的盘子档案 |
| 870 | even if the dossier is very large. | 即使档案很大 |
| 871 | The judgment of stars is then, you know, | 恒星的判断是,你知道, |
| 872 | between the same category of items. | 在同一类别项目之间。 |
| 873 | When Michelin came to New York, | 米其林来纽约时 |
| 874 | there has never been a cult of Michelin stars in New York. | 纽约从未有过米其林明星的崇拜. |
| 875 | I think Jan can correct me if I'm wrong, | 我认为如果是我错了 Jan可以纠正我 |
| 876 | but you know, having a Michelin star is great | 但你知道,有米其林明星是伟大的 |
| 877 | but it's not a guarantee of success. | 但这并不能保证成功 |
| 878 | And neither is, you know, a demotion | 也不是降职 |
| 879 | in the way that in France, you know, | 在法国的方式,你知道, |
| 880 | and Bernard Loiseau committed suicide | 和伯纳德·洛伊索自杀 |
| 881 | when he was demoted from three to two stars. | 当他从三星降为两星的时候, |
| 882 | And it's very hard to judge in a eclectic world | 在充满喜悦的世界里很难判断 |
| 883 | or, you know, in a place like Shanghai | 在上海这样的地方 |
| 884 | that has so many different restaurants and cuisines | 有很多不同的餐馆和菜肴 |
| 885 | and in which Michelin is ranking, if I'm correct, | 而米其林的排名 如果我是对的 |
| 886 | you know, French and Italian restaurants, | 你知道,法国和意大利餐馆, |
| 887 | the same kind of gamut of international foods. | 同类的国际食品。 |
| 888 | And so in a way it surprises me | 所以从某种意义上说 让我很惊讶 |
| 889 | that Michelin should be regarded | 米其林应该被视为 |
| 890 | as validating the greatness of restaurants. | 以证明餐厅的伟大 |
| 891 | On the other hand, perhaps it is still a symptom | 另一方面,也许它仍然是一个症状 |
| 892 | of relying on or perhaps over-respecting | 依赖或可能过分尊重 |
| 893 | the judgment of outsiders. | 外人的判断。 |
| 894 | There are plenty of Chinese restaurant reviewers, right? | 有很多中餐馆审查员吧? |
| 895 | There are plenty of, you know, newspapers and magazines | 有很多报纸杂志 |
| 896 | that review restaurants. | 负责审查餐厅 |
| 897 | There are plenty of professional reviewers. | 专业审查员很多. |
| 898 | There are plenty of opinions of amateurs available | 有很多业余爱好者的意见 |
| 899 | over the internet. | 在互联网上。 |
| 900 | Certainly one of the effects of the pandemic | 当然,这种流行病的影响之一 |
| 901 | in the United States is an erosion of fine dining | 在美国是美餐的侵蚀 |
| 902 | that I think is gonna have some long-term consequences. | 我认为会有一些长期的后果。 |
| 903 | And hence some of this fussing about rankings | 也因此对排名有些大惊小怪 |
| 904 | may also diminish along with it. | 也会随之减少。 |
| 905 | Exactly. | 没错 |
| 906 | I mean, Yong, you're in the business | 我是说,阿勇,你是做生意的 |
| 907 | and you guys have gotten lots of great publicity | 你们得到了很多 伟大的宣传 |
| 908 | from New York Times and Wall Street Journal | 来自纽约时报和华尔街日报 |
| 909 | and all these places, social media, et cetera. | 以及所有这些地方,社交媒体,等等。 |
| 910 | So how do you sort of navigate this tension | 那么,你是如何 引导这种紧张 |
| 911 | between, you know, getting this very positive review, | 在得到这个非常积极的评价之间 |
| 912 | but also trying to appeal to the mass market, | 还试图吸引大众市场, |
| 913 | but then also you wanna be authentic | 但你也想成为真正的 |
| 914 | and create food that is true to your own identity? | 创造出符合自己身份的食物? |
| 915 | So what has that been like | 那感觉怎么样? |
| 916 | trying to navigate all those things? | 试图导航这些东西? |
| 917 | So I mean, publicity is kind of a result | 我意思是,宣传是一种结果 |
| 918 | of understanding the social narratives. | 理解社会叙事。 |
| 919 | The narratives is very interesting | 叙事非常有趣 |
| 920 | because it's like once society is kind of bonded | 因为它就像曾经的社会 是一种束缚 |
| 921 | through like the main theme of the societies. | 就像社会主题一样 |
| 922 | So sometimes the conflicts of different civilizations | 所以有时候不同文明的冲突 |
| 923 | because the narratives are quite different. | 因为叙事很不一样 |
| 924 | You cannot really talk to each other. | 你们不能彼此说话 |
| 925 | Like the Chinese, like the Western world | 像中国人,像西方世界 |
| 926 | or Islamic world that all have different narratives | 或伊斯兰世界,都有着不同的叙事 |
| 927 | that have their total way of different way of writing. | 它们有着不同的写作方式 |
| 928 | And then as us, like when we're trying to stop a new brand | 然后作为我们, 就像当我们试图阻止一个新的品牌 |
| 929 | to understand how can we learn both the language | 我们如何学习两种语言 |
| 930 | trying to write something that can be read, | 试图写一些可以读到的东西, |
| 931 | appreciated through this audience is a very, very important. | 通过这些观众的欣赏是非常重要的。 |
| 932 | So as an example of the mission guide, | 因此作为任务指南的例子, |
| 933 | those are like a perspective for cultural dominance | 这些都是文化统治的视角 |
| 934 | because they're from the people | 因为他们来自人民 |
| 935 | who think their opinions matters | 他们认为自己的意见很重要 |
| 936 | for some food like French people. | 像法国人一样的食物 |
| 937 | Then there's some people gonna be responsible for music. | 然后有些人会负责音乐 |
| 938 | And there's like American color own, | 还有像美国颜色的, |
| 939 | the champion of the national sports league, | 国家体育联盟的冠军, |
| 940 | a national, a world champions. | 国家,世界冠军。 |
| 941 | That's weird because what do you mean by world? | 这很奇怪,因为你是什么意思世界? |
| 942 | It's almost feel like the world champions like this, | 感觉就像世界冠军一样 |
| 943 | of course it could be in Chinese, | 当然可能是中文 |
| 944 | nobody else speak that. | 没人会这么说 |
| 945 | But maybe 20 years, 30 years later, | 但也许20年,30年后 |
| 946 | they're gonna be all kinds of people | 他们会是各种各样的人 |
| 947 | from different countries speak Chinese | 来自不同国家的汉语 |
| 948 | using Xiangsheng as one of the form | 用 生作为形式之一 |
| 949 | of communication committing part of a performance | 履行部分义务的通信 |
| 950 | just because China's economic influences | 只因为中国的经济影响 |
| 951 | and political influences, | 和政治影响, |
| 952 | cultural influence become larger and larger. | 文化影响越来越大。 |
| 953 | And then eventually the same thing could happen | 最终也会发生同样的事情 |
| 954 | at the same conversation at some point like, | 在同一段谈话中 |
| 955 | oh, our own community is like, | 哦,我们自己的社区一样, |
| 956 | why do we need to use judging from Chinese? | 我们为什么要用中文来判断? |
| 957 | All these things happen again, again, | 这些事情又重演了 |
| 958 | because of this kind of cultural differences, | 由于这种文化差异, |
| 959 | a narrative different, a clash and the conflicts, | 故事不同 冲突与冲突 |
| 960 | but also merging with this conflict narratives. | 但也与这些冲突叙事合并。 |
| 961 | So as a Chinese brand right now, | 所以,作为一个中国品牌 现在, |
| 962 | if you look at this year's New York Times, | 如果你看看今年的纽约时报 |
| 963 | there's not really much of a positive reporting on Chinese, | 华语的报导不多 |
| 964 | anything about China. | 有关中国的一切。 |
| 965 | So we got one, the whole page of positive story | 所以,我们得到了一个, 整页正面的故事 |
| 966 | about a Chinese restaurant | 关于一家中餐馆 |
| 967 | and the efforts we're trying to do something | 以及我们努力做一些事情 |
| 968 | because that story is consistent with their stories | 因为那个故事和他们的故事一致 |
| 969 | they want to talk about. | 他们想谈谈。 |
| 970 | It's different from the story that other Chinese part of, | 与故事不同的是,其他中国部分, |
| 971 | especially on the national part of the national plush | 特别是在国家层面 |
| 972 | of the US to China, it's different from the government. | 从美国到中国 这与政府不同 |
| 973 | So you can design the food as kind of a non-political | 所以,你可以设计食物 一种非政治性 |
| 974 | kind of way to talk about food, | 一种谈论食物的方式, |
| 975 | especially on the local communities. | 特别是当地社区。 |
| 976 | So that's the one more thing that's very important | 所以还有一件事很重要 |
| 977 | for the Chinese culture in America. | 为美国华人文化. |
| 978 | So there's, I think we're into the new era | 因此,我想我们进入了新时代 |
| 979 | of Chinese culture in America, | 美国的中国文化 |
| 980 | because there was an era that China was very weak. | 因为有一个时代 中国非常脆弱。 |
| 981 | So the people who live in the US will feel they're richer, | 住在美国的人会觉得自己很有钱 |
| 982 | they have better kind of stage | 他们有更好的舞台 |
| 983 | than the Chinese people in their motherland. | 而不是祖国的中国人 |
| 984 | But in the meantime, | 但与此同时, |
| 985 | they're not a majority of in the American side, | 他们不是大多数在美国方面, |
| 986 | they're kind of minority there, | 他们在那里是少数, |
| 987 | but they're still living in a better condition. | 但他们仍然生活在更好的状态中。 |
| 988 | And then in the most recent 20 years | 然后在最近20年里 |
| 989 | of development economic changes, | 发展经济变化, |
| 990 | there's the more and more rich kids | 越来越有钱的孩子 |
| 991 | or rich people go to America, | 或有钱人去美国, |
| 992 | although they're culturally very different, | 虽然他们的文化差异很大 |
| 993 | but they don't feel they're kind of a feel, | 但他们并不觉得他们是一种感觉, |
| 994 | oh, I'm from a poor places, they're very confident. | 哦,我来自一个贫穷的地方, 他们非常有信心。 |
| 995 | So the kind of American Chinese | 所以那种美国华人 |
| 996 | or Chinese American community become feel | 或美国华人社区 变得感觉 |
| 997 | that kind of pressure because there's a kind of cousin | 那种压力 因为有一个表弟 |
| 998 | from far away land actually doing better than me, | 远离遥远的土地 比我做得更好 |
| 999 | more powerful, more important. | 更强大,更重要。 |
| 1000 | So that's kind of when Jinzu was emerged | 这时候真祖就出现了 |
| 1001 | because of kind of way of a thought of, | 因为某种方式的思考, |
| 1002 | oh, we bring the real Chinese culture here. | 哦,我们带来了真正的中国文化在这里。 |
| 1003 | And we think that's a better, that's a pure | 我们认为这是更好的, 这是纯粹的 |
| 1004 | and American Chinese culture is kind of, | 而美国华人文化 是一种, |
| 1005 | it's inauthentic, it's batterized. | 这是非正统的, 它的打击。 |
| 1006 | But after years kind of development | 但经过多年的发展 |
| 1007 | or change of the new generation | 或改变新一代 |
| 1008 | of the second and third generation immigrants, | 第二代和第三代移民, |
| 1009 | and they're still have a second thought. | 他们还有第二个想法 |
| 1010 | So I probably don't know if in China, | 所以我可能不知道在中国, |
| 1011 | people watch the movie about the crazy rich Asians, | 人们看电影 关于疯狂的富有亚洲人, |
| 1012 | because in China, people react poorly about that movie | 因为中国人对这部电影的反应不好 |
| 1013 | since it looks very cliche, the weird, | 因为它看起来很陈词滥调, 奇怪, |
| 1014 | but Americans like those Asian Chinese American | 但美国人喜欢那些亚洲华裔美国人 |
| 1015 | receive that kind of movies, narratives very important | 接受这种电影 叙事非常重要 |
| 1016 | because they think that's their utopia. | 因为他们认为这是他们的乌托邦。 |
| 1017 | They think there is kind of a almost like Black Panther | 他们觉得这里有条黑豹 |
| 1018 | kind of there is Wakanda of Chinese-ness in Singapore, | 有点像新加坡的华康达 |
| 1019 | because in China, that's too hard to accept, that's too big. | 因为在中国,那太难接受了,那太大了. |
| 1020 | But Singapore is kind of ideal economic rich, | 但新加坡是那种理想的经济富翁, |
| 1021 | but also kind of affluent show the way of rich cultures. | 富人也展现了丰富的文化 |
| 1022 | A lot of people look at similar. | 很多人都这样看 |
| 1023 | So right now, because of US China has this kind of trend | 所以现在,因为美国 中国有这样的趋势 |
| 1024 | of this separation, the past is a kind of honeymoon | 这段分居的过去 是一种蜜月 |
| 1025 | of this 10 years of collaboration as the next 10 years | 未来十年的合作 |
| 1026 | is gonna be more on the kind of rival race competition. | 更像是竞争对手 |
| 1027 | So I think that the Chinese American culture | 所以我认为美国华人文化 |
| 1028 | will have a renaissance of identify themselves | 将恢复自我认同 |
| 1029 | as a kind of a authentic modernized culture, | 作为一种真正的现代化文化, |
| 1030 | that they're gonna be contributed to the brand. | 他们将会为这个品牌做出贡献。 |
| 1031 | So now you say Chinese, our new brand is actually | 所以现在你说中国,我们的新品牌其实是 |
| 1032 | the narratives are fully about that authentic, | 叙事是完全关于 真实的, |
| 1033 | new generation American Chinese culture. | 新一代美国华人文化. |
| 1034 | So that's kind of how to build narratives. | 所以这就是如何构建叙事。 |
| 1035 | So that's why, because it's very localized, | 这就是为什么,因为它非常本地化, |
| 1036 | and we talk about helping the local people | 我们谈论帮助当地人 |
| 1037 | from the heritage of the immigrants cultures. | 移民文化传统。 |
| 1038 | So that's all fitting the whole progressive agenda | 所以这都适合整个进步议程 |
| 1039 | of a life side American politics. | 美国的政治生活 |
| 1040 | So then you get all these publicities because of that. | 所以,你得到了所有这些公关 因为。 |
| 1041 | Also, of course, all the interesting kind of topics | 当然,所有有趣的话题 |
| 1042 | of innovation part as well. | 也是创新的一部分。 |
| 1043 | But it's very important to write a kind of your chapter, | 但写一章很重要 |
| 1044 | kind of understanding the whole books. | 一种理解 整本书。 |
| 1045 | So that's why sometimes you look at the way of communication | 这就是为什么你有时看 沟通的方式 |
| 1046 | and a lot of national media want to communicate content | 以及许多国内媒体想要传播内容 |
| 1047 | to talk about China in the U.S. | 在美国谈论中国 |
| 1048 | It's just so hard to talk about because when you talk about | 这太难谈了 因为当你谈论 |
| 1049 | this is in the wrong language. | 这是用错误的语言。 |
| 1050 | All right, so, I mean, I could talk about food | 好吧,所以,我的意思是,我可以谈论食物 |
| 1051 | with you and culture with you guys all day, | 与你和文化与你们一整天, |
| 1052 | and we have in the past. | 和我们在过去。 |
| 1053 | So let's open it up for some questions from the audience. | 所以,让我们打开它 一些问题从观众。 |
| 1054 | I'd love to hear what other people are thinking about | 我很想知道别人在想什么 |
| 1055 | and what they have questions about. | 和他们有什么疑问。 |
| 1056 | So there are two ways to do this. | 故此有两法. |
| 1057 | You can either type out your question in the chat box | 您可以在聊天框中输入您的问题 |
| 1058 | on the bottom of the Zoom chat function. | 在缩放聊天功能的底部。 |
| 1059 | We can all see it and then I'll help facilitate those. | 我们都可以看到它,然后我会帮助促进这些。 |
| 1060 | Or you can directly just raise your hand | 或者直接举手 |
| 1061 | and I will be happy to call on you and unmute you. | 我将乐于召唤你 并释放你。 |
| 1062 | We have a nice size group, so we should be able | иΤ舱 ┮и莱赣 |
| 1063 | to get a good conversation going. | 来好好谈谈 |
| 1064 | So if anybody has questions, go ahead and just raise your hand | 所以如果有人有问题,请举手 |
| 1065 | or type it out in the chat box | 在聊天框中键入 |
| 1066 | and I'd be happy to facilitate that. | 我很乐意协助你 |
| 1067 | And I know it takes people a while to warm up sometimes. | 我知道有时候要花点时间才能暖和 |
| 1068 | All right, we've got our first question from Edna. | 好吧,我们得到了我们的第一个问题 从埃德娜。 |
| 1069 | Okay, so I'm gonna unmute you. | 好吧,所以我要去 揭发你。 |
| 1070 | Hi, Edna, go ahead. | 嗨,艾德娜,继续说 |
| 1071 | Oh, okay. | 哦,还好。 |
| 1072 | So when I was visiting New York and LA, | 所以当我访问纽约和洛杉矶时 |
| 1073 | I found a curious phenomenon. | 我发现一个奇怪的现象。 |
| 1074 | Like Chinese restaurants in Chinatowns, | 就像唐人街的中餐馆 |
| 1075 | they actually, their food are actually much more expensive | 其实,他们的食物其实要贵得多 |
| 1076 | than U.S. food. | 比美国食品。 |
| 1077 | And what do you guys think would be a reason for that? | 你们觉得这有什么理由? |
| 1078 | Because when I stay in Durham, | 因为当我留在达勒姆时 |
| 1079 | the Chinese food restaurant is basically the same | 中餐餐厅基本一样 |
| 1080 | with U.S. food, but in New York, | 在美国的食物, 但在纽约, |
| 1081 | it's much more expensive, like $50 or $70 for one dish. | 价钱要高得多,比如50美元或70美元 |
| 1082 | Yeah, and especially Szechuan food, | 对,尤其是西川菜 |
| 1083 | I guess it's more popular in the U.S. | 我想在美国比较流行. |
| 1084 | So there are two- Yikes. | 所以有两个... 哎哟 |
| 1085 | Yeah, Paul, you wanted to- Go ahead, no, you know the answer | 是的,保罗,你想... 来吧,不,你知道答案 |
| 1086 | to this. | 这个 |
| 1087 | So there are two kind of Chinese restaurants in Chinatown. | 因此唐人街有两种中餐馆. |
| 1088 | So one for the locals, so they're very cheap. | 所以,一个给当地人, 所以他们非常便宜。 |
| 1089 | Those restaurants are really, really cheap. | 那些餐馆真的很便宜。 |
| 1090 | It's very hard to find, but they're for locals. | 虽然很难找到,但它们是给当地人的. |
| 1091 | And then there's a restaurant for the tourists | 然后是游客的餐厅 |
| 1092 | who just go to New York, want to do something, | 谁只是去纽约, 想做一些事情, |
| 1093 | go to Chinatown famous for some dishes that can, you know, | 去唐人街 著名的一些菜肴 可以,你知道, |
| 1094 | they're gonna basically pay more than they need to. | 他们基本上会付出更多的代价 |
| 1095 | So that's very touristy. | 因此,这是非常旅游。 |
| 1096 | And then we go to neighborhood restaurants | 然后我们去邻里餐馆 |
| 1097 | in all of America, then that's where the local pay | 在全美国, 然后这是当地支付 |
| 1098 | for the daily budget at the daily restaurant. | 每日餐厅预算 |
| 1099 | So one important thing with Chinese food is | 所以中国菜有一件重要的事 |
| 1100 | the most common scenario, user scenario for Chinese food | 最常见的情景,中国食品的用户情景 |
| 1101 | is when you don't want to cook, | 当你不想做饭的时候 |
| 1102 | you grab something from Chinese restaurant | 你从中国餐馆拿东西 |
| 1103 | and they take over, they take out or just deliveries. | 然后他们接管, 他们取出或只是交货。 |
| 1104 | Before there's a third party who eats the Chinese food, | 在有第三方吃中国菜之前 |
| 1105 | the OG delivery-based food. | OG送货食品 |
| 1106 | So those like, if you look at all these television shows | 所以说,如果你看这些电视节目 |
| 1107 | on like America, a lot of those scenes, | 在美国,很多这样的场景, |
| 1108 | you can see a bunch of Chinese take-out boxes | 你可以看到一堆中国的外卖盒 |
| 1109 | like Big Bang Theory, all these things have it. | 像大爆炸一样 理论,所有这些东西都有它。 |
| 1110 | So those are where people eat Chinese food. | 这就是人们吃中国菜的地方 |
| 1111 | It's very common, very casual. | 这很常见 很随意 |
| 1112 | It's nothing too fancy. | 没有什么太华丽。 |
| 1113 | It's not like you go Chinese food | 你又不是吃中国菜 |
| 1114 | for like fine dining or anything. | 喜欢的美餐什么的。 |
| 1115 | People don't think that way. | 人们不会这样想的 |
| 1116 | But in Chinatown, then you go to Chinatown | 但是在唐人街,然后你去唐人街 |
| 1117 | for something exotic, something interesting. | 对于异国情调,有趣的东西。 |
| 1118 | That's almost like tours, you go theme parks, | 这几乎就像旅游, 你去主题公园, |
| 1119 | you go Disneyland, you pay something overpriced. | 你去迪士尼乐园, 你付出了超价的东西。 |
| 1120 | Same thing. | 同样的事情。 |
| 1121 | Yeah, I think that's, no, no, no. | 是的,我想这是,不,不,不。 |
| 1122 | I think Yang has answered it. | 我想杨先生已经回答过了 |
| 1123 | And I think it's also important to note that | 我想也有必要指出 |
| 1124 | in many places in the US, Chinatowns don't act, | 在美国的许多地方,唐人街不采取行动, |
| 1125 | like that's not where Chinese people live anymore. | 就像中国人已经不住在那里了 |
| 1126 | Like, they've gone out into the suburbs. | 喜欢,他们已经去 郊区。 |
| 1127 | And so Chinatown is also not representative | 所以唐人街也不具有代表性 |
| 1128 | of what the actual Chinese population is eating either. | 中国人吃的东西。 |
| 1129 | Yeah, I want to add just one more story about Chinatown. | 是啊,我想再补充一个关于唐人街的故事。 |
| 1130 | So I learned like the San Francisco Chinatown | 所以我学会了像旧金山唐人街 |
| 1131 | is one of early Chinatown before. | 之前是唐人街早期的一个 |
| 1132 | So I think in the beginning of the 20th century, | 所以我想在20世纪初 |
| 1133 | the Chinatown was destroyed by earthquake or some fires. | 唐人街被地震或火灾摧毁了 |
| 1134 | And then, so the current, at the moment, | 然后,所以现在, |
| 1135 | the government, the white government | 政府,白人政府 |
| 1136 | want to remove Chinatown to move to outside the city, | 想搬走唐人街 搬到城外 |
| 1137 | like they did for Japanese towns. | 就像他们对日本城镇所做的那样 |
| 1138 | And then they struck a deal with the leaders, | 然后他们和领导人达成协议 |
| 1139 | the community leaders for Chinese people | 中国人民的社区领袖 |
| 1140 | that the Chinese people almost feel, | 中国人民几乎感到 |
| 1141 | okay, now let's build a Chinatown | 好,现在我们建个唐人街 |
| 1142 | to what you think that it should be. | 以你认为应该是什么。 |
| 1143 | And then we can perform like Chinese people in Chinatown. | 然后我们可以像中国人一样在唐人街表演. |
| 1144 | So you can draw a lot of tourists to Chinatowns. | 这样可以吸引许多游客到唐人街. |
| 1145 | So almost feel like the Chinatown is like theme parks, | 所以几乎感觉唐人街 就像主题公园, |
| 1146 | almost like immigrants of Chinese people | 就像中国人的移民一样 |
| 1147 | is living in the theme park as a modern minority, | 住在主题公园 作为一个现代少数民族, |
| 1148 | as the people you support behave like this. | 就像你所支持的人这样 |
| 1149 | So that's kind of a, | 所以这是种, |
| 1150 | there's a lot of much deeper conversation | 有很多更深入的对话 |
| 1151 | about those kind of modern minority part, | 关于这些现代少数民族, |
| 1152 | third type of Chinese people. | 第三类中国人. |
| 1153 | But in the beginning, | 但从一开始 |
| 1154 | a lot of part of the minority is things like that. | 少数族群中有很多是这样的 |
| 1155 | But in the Chinatown, it happened too, right? | 但是在唐人街,它也发生了,对不对? |
| 1156 | A lot of minorities, they have to live in the tourist zones | 很多少数民族,他们必须住在旅游区 |
| 1157 | to perform like there's rituals every day, | 就像每天都有仪式一样 |
| 1158 | you probably only set every once a year, | 你可能每年只安排一次 |
| 1159 | but now you're gonna do it every day. | 但现在你每天都要做 |
| 1160 | Almost like I need to do my spring festival every day | 好像我每天都要过春节 |
| 1161 | because I'm minorities. | 因为我是少数民族 |
| 1162 | So that's kind of a part of being minority in America. | 这就是美国少数族群的一部分。 |
| 1163 | And... | 还有... |
| 1164 | All right, so Dennis from the chat box has a question about, I'm going to expand his | 好吧,所以丹尼斯 从聊天盒有一个问题 关于,我要去扩充他的 |
| 1165 | question a little bit. | 有点问题 |
| 1166 | His question is, if we keep calling it the China virus, how does that affect Chinese | 他的问题是,如果我们继续称之为"中国病毒",那对中国人有什么影响? |
| 1167 | food and restaurants? | 食物和餐馆? |
| 1168 | And of course it does. | 当然 |
| 1169 | But let's talk more broadly about sort of xenophobia and racism and stereotypes and | 但是,让我们更广义地谈谈 排外主义和种族主义 和定型观念, |
| 1170 | how that has historically always impacted a lot of Chinese food and ethnic foods. | 这在历史上一直影响着许多中国的食品和民族食品。 |
| 1171 | And then, yeah, so Paul, do you want to kind of take that real quick? | 然后,是的,所以保罗, 你想采取那种真正的快? |
| 1172 | Yeah, I think it don't I wouldn't exaggerate that use of the term China virus, this is | 是的,我想我不会夸大"中国病毒"这个词的用法 |
| 1173 | a Trump topos, but it's not the what you were describing in March and April, this sort | 但这不是你在3月和4月描述的 |
| 1174 | of association of the Covid-19 virus with China, I think has diminished, particularly | 我认为科维德 -19病毒与中国的联系已经减弱,尤其是 |
| 1175 | as you know, it's obvious that the United States has not dealt with it all that well | 你知道,很明显,美国没有 处理得这么好 |
| 1176 | in contrast to other countries. | 相对于其他国家。 |
| 1177 | So the larger question, so the answer I think is no, it's not going to affect the | 所以,更大的问题, 所以我认为答案是否定的, 它不会影响 |
| 1178 | reputation of Chinese food as Young has emphasized. | 中国菜的美誉 杨强调。 |
| 1179 | A lot of cuisine's reputations depend on the mother country and perception of the mother | 烹饪的名声多取决于母亲的祖国和对母亲的看法 |
| 1180 | country. | 国家。 |
| 1181 | So it's it was possible once Italy became rather than a source of a lot of poor | 所以,一旦意大利变成 而不是许多穷人的来源,这是可能的 |
| 1182 | people and a devastated war, devastated country, but rather the home of fashion and style, | 人民和惨遭蹂躏的战争,国家被摧毁, 而是时尚和风格的家园, |
| 1183 | then Italian food becomes becomes more popular. | 然后意大利菜就越来越流行了 |
| 1184 | So, you know, I think I think there's always going to be a way in which the restaurant | 所以,你知道,我想我想 总会有办法使餐厅 |
| 1185 | patron feels themselves to be superior. | 赞助人觉得自己是优越的。 |
| 1186 | And there's a more harmful form of that and a sort of customer is always right. | 有一种更有害的 一种顾客总是对的 |
| 1187 | If you own a business, you have to flatter your customer into thinking the same as a | 如果你有生意,你必须恭维你的客户 让你的想法与一个 |
| 1188 | clothing store, that they have taste and style when, you know, often they don't and | 服装店,他们有味道和风格 当,你知道,他们常常不 |
| 1189 | it's not manipulating them, it's simply serving them or directing them, steering them | 它不是操纵它们, 它只是为它们服务 或者指导它们,引导它们 |
| 1190 | away from things that are a mistake or or educating them. | 远离错误或教育的东西。 |
| 1191 | And you have to have a certain mentality for that and a certain willingness to put up | 你必须要有某种心态 并且有某种意愿 |
| 1192 | with a fair amount of nonsense. | 和相当数量的废话。 |
| 1193 | I think that the genius of Yang and his partners has been to have fun while acknowledging | 我觉得杨和搭档的天才 就是在承认自己 |
| 1194 | the struggle and celebrating the ability to educate even even those people in the in | 斗争和庆祝 教育的能力 即使那些在监狱的人 |
| 1195 | the red states are capable, capable of, you know, one of the big changes actually that | 红色状态是有能力的,有能力的, 你知道,一个大的改变 实际上, |
| 1196 | I've seen in the United States in the last 20 years is I've been to places like Amarillo, | 过去20年中我在美国见过... ...我去过像阿马里略这样的地方, |
| 1197 | Texas or Columbus, Ohio. | 德克萨斯州或哥伦布州,俄亥俄州. |
| 1198 | I lived in Nashville, Tennessee for a number of years. | 我在田纳西州的纳什维尔住了几年 |
| 1199 | The food in these places is so much better, not usually the Chinese food yet, but just | 这些地方的食物要好得多 通常不是中国菜 |
| 1200 | regular, nice restaurant, more or less American food. | 普通的,不错的餐厅, 多少美国食物。 |
| 1201 | The ingredients are better. | 成分比较好。 |
| 1202 | The variety is greater. | 品种更大. |
| 1203 | The attention to how things are prepared and the enthusiasm of the clientele is greater. | 对事情的准备方式和客户的热情的关注更大. |
| 1204 | So there is some potential, I think, apart from questions of minorities. | 因此,我认为除了少数群体问题之外,还有一些潜力。 |
| 1205 | You know, has your business been affected at all by COVID and how? | 你的业务是否受到COVID的影响? |
| 1206 | There's a few data I can share. | 有一些数据我可以分享。 |
| 1207 | First of all, there are very recent researches, unpublished research done by a professor from | 首先,最近有一些研究, 由来自 |
| 1208 | NYU study about the health department, the failure, the failed rate of restaurant in the | 纽约大学关于卫生部门的研究 失败 餐馆的失败率 |
| 1209 | health department this year, a significant growth on the Asian restaurant, not only just | 今年的保健部门,亚洲餐馆的显著增长, 不仅仅是 |
| 1210 | Chinese Asian restaurant has like 20 percent growth on the failure rate of the restaurant. | 中亚餐厅在餐厅故障率上增长20%。 |
| 1211 | There could be a discrimination case against that because there's nothing changed. | 可能会有歧视案件 因为没有什么变化。 |
| 1212 | In other words, they fail the test. | 换句话说,他们失败了测试。 |
| 1213 | Yeah, they fail the inspection. | 是的,他们没有检查。 |
| 1214 | Yeah, the inspector will be hard on them or, you know, another way to think about it. | 是的,督察会很难对付他们 或者,你知道的,另一种方式去思考它。 |
| 1215 | So and there's a data shows the beginning of a pandemic, there's definitely a drop of | 因此,有数据显示 流行病的开始, 肯定有下降 |
| 1216 | demands on Chinese food because people have a close fear of the people talk about China | 因为人们非常害怕人们谈论中国 |
| 1217 | virus. | 病毒 病毒 病毒 病毒 病毒 病毒 病毒 |
| 1218 | And the same thing like almost feel like people don't like the corona beers because | 和类似的东西 几乎感觉人们不喜欢 日冕啤酒,因为 |
| 1219 | the coronavirus that's so stupid. | 冠状病毒太蠢了 |
| 1220 | But that's sometimes you have the kind of associations. | 但有时你也有这种联系 |
| 1221 | But Chinese food actually has a growing demand when pandemic happened, actually happened | 但中国食品在大流行时 需求却在增长 |
| 1222 | because when actually happened, the whole lockdown of American society just make the | 因为当实际发生时, 美国社会的整个封锁 |
| 1223 | food or the kind of user scenario food is like there are no restaurant opens. | 食物或用户类型的情景食品就像没有餐厅开张. |
| 1224 | So you're going to depend on deliveries. | 所以你得靠交货了 |
| 1225 | We're going to do with the delivery food, Chinese food. | 我们要处理送货食品,中餐. |
| 1226 | So there's a huge change from, you know, you know, there's a kind of recent report talk | 所以,有一个巨大的变化 从,你知道,你知道, 有一类 最近的报告谈话 |
| 1227 | about nobody won't buy salad anymore. | 没人会再买沙拉了 |
| 1228 | People buy more pizza or more Chinese. | 人们购买更多的披萨或更多的中国。 |
| 1229 | The most frequent question people ask during the election is like where to find Chinese | 在选举期间人们最常问的问题 就是中国人在哪里 |
| 1230 | food, because there's much of comfort food you'll need it at home. | 食物,因为有很多舒适的食物 你会需要它在家里。 |
| 1231 | So so there's kind of a change of the dynamic because the utility value of Chinese food | 所以有种变化 动态 因为中国食品的效用价值 |
| 1232 | as a delivery base, a comfort food kind of dominant and more than a culture fear. | 作为送货基地, 一种舒适的食物类型 主导和不止文化恐惧。 |
| 1233 | So that's kind of one thing that good. | 所以这是一件好事 |
| 1234 | But the fundamental there is is a reason that Americans will be easier to kind of have | 但根本的是有原因的 美国人会更容易拥有 |
| 1235 | a fear to Chinese food because the restaurant operation sometimes have a questionable | 对中国菜来说是一种恐惧,因为餐厅的经营有时有问题 |
| 1236 | actions. | 行动。 |
| 1237 | So most Chinese foods operate by small families and their restaurant haven't | 所以大部分的中国食品 由小家庭经营 和他们的餐馆没有 |
| 1238 | have any renovation for 30 years. | 任何翻修30年。 |
| 1239 | If you get into the restaurant, it looks very dirty, old. | 如果你进入餐厅, 它看起来很脏,老。 |
| 1240 | Everything is everything is just it's around. | 一切都是一切,只是周围。 |
| 1241 | It's very hard to see in this like a clean restaurant. | 这里很难看清 |
| 1242 | And then when something happens, when people just even make up stories, there is rats in | 然后当事情发生, 当人们只是编故事, 有老鼠在 |
| 1243 | your restaurant. | 你的餐厅。 |
| 1244 | You can believe in it because that looks like potentially can happen | 你可以相信,因为看起来 有可能发生 |
| 1245 | easily. | 很简单。 |
| 1246 | So those image stereotypes need to be changed. | 因此,这些形象定型观念需要改变。 |
| 1247 | Think about Japanese restaurants as well. | 想想日本餐馆吧 |
| 1248 | If you think about Japanese, you usually think about cleanliness because you think of | 如果你想到日语,你通常会想到清洁,因为你想到 |
| 1249 | a stereotype of Japanese people is like they're super clean. | 日本人的刻板印象好像很干净 |
| 1250 | They're even like obsessed with cleanliness. | 他们甚至像迷恋清洁。 |
| 1251 | All the story tell about is that. | 所有的故事都讲到这一点。 |
| 1252 | But none of the things tell the Chinese people are doing that. | 但是没有一件事情告诉中国人民是这样做的. |
| 1253 | So that's why the virus happens. | 这就是病毒发生的原因。 |
| 1254 | We're in a disadvantage. | 我们处于劣势 |
| 1255 | So when you change that. | 所以当你改变这一点。 |
| 1256 | Right. | 对 |
| 1257 | So I actually got a question specifically for you. | 所以我有个问题要问你 |
| 1258 | I was just checking out your amazing restaurants web page and something I realized is | 我刚刚在查你那神奇的餐厅网页 我发现 |
| 1259 | actually your menu's design is actually quite similar to Hawaiian poke in some | 其实你的菜单设计 与夏威夷的插孔有点相似 |
| 1260 | degree. | 学位。 |
| 1261 | And just like you said earlier, I wouldn't I personally wouldn't call your | 就像你刚才说的 我个人不会打电话给你 |
| 1262 | like the food served in your restaurant like 100 percent pure Chinese and all that. | 就像你餐厅里的食物一样 像百分之百的纯中文之类的 |
| 1263 | And we have seen like the Hawaiian poke gain a very huge success in the States, | 我们看到夏威夷的刺 在美国取得了巨大的成功, |
| 1264 | like in some way, because they're easier way to obtain vegetarian food. | 某种程度上说 因为他们更容易获得素食 |
| 1265 | They're very healthy. | 他们非常健康。 |
| 1266 | So I was wondering, have you guys considered that into when you guys develop your menu | 所以我想,你们有没有考虑过 当你们开发你的菜单 |
| 1267 | in the first place? | 首先吗? |
| 1268 | So the idea. | 所以这个想法。 |
| 1269 | Sorry, like I'm very interested in how you guys like build the menu and how you guys | 对不起,我对你们 如何制作菜单很感兴趣 |
| 1270 | decide on what kind of style you want to offer. | 决定你想提供哪种风格。 |
| 1271 | So as I said, the foundation of the whole venture we're having is based on the future | 正如我所说,我们整个企业的基础 是基于未来 |
| 1272 | that there are no there are going to be no Chinese people in the Chinese restaurants. | 中国餐馆里没有中国人 |
| 1273 | So imagine that kind of scenarios and we can reverse the process from a Americanization | 所以想象一下那种情景 我们可以从美国化中逆转 |
| 1274 | of a Chinese family making Chinese food to a Chinese occasion of American people make | 一个中国家庭为美国人民创造中国食物 |
| 1275 | like American restaurants. | 像美国餐馆。 |
| 1276 | So like you think about we acquire a poke or acquire a chipotle at those like American | 所以,就像你想的,我们得到一个戳 或获得一个芯片对像美国 |
| 1277 | restaurant and we'll give them totally different kind of book, the same employees, | 餐厅,我们会给他们 完全不同的书籍,同样的员工, |
| 1278 | American employees do a different handbook and make a Chinese food flavors that Chinese | 美国员工用不同的手册 制作一种中国菜味 |
| 1279 | people will taste. | 人们会尝到的 |
| 1280 | Oh, that's a real flavors. | 哦,这是一个真正的味道。 |
| 1281 | So that's when you imagine kind of the Chinese food, because in a way is one thing that's | 因此,当你想象一种中国食物, 因为在某种程度上,这是一件事 |
| 1282 | important for Chinese culture is the authenticity is a a temporary term because they're | 对于中华文化来说,重要的是真实性是一个暂时的术语,因为它们是 |
| 1283 | going to be invented at some point. | 会在某个时候被发明 |
| 1284 | Right. | 对 |
| 1285 | Like we'll talk about Sichuan food invented by some point in the Qing Dynasty is | 就像我们谈论四川菜 在清朝某个时候发明的 |
| 1286 | very recent. | 刚刚 |
| 1287 | It's different from Sichuan food a thousand years ago. | 与一千年前的四川菜不同. |
| 1288 | So which means there is no 100 percent authenticity when your culture is still living and | 因此,这意味着没有100%的真实性 当你的文化仍然活着, |
| 1289 | breathing. | 呼吸 呼吸 呼吸 呼吸 |
| 1290 | So we imagine Chinese food like 20 years from now, there are going to be a | 所以我们想象20年后的中国食物 将会是 |
| 1291 | lot of kind of this assembly line based type of serving as a kind of way of serving. | 很多种类的这种基于 组装线类型 作为一种服务方式。 |
| 1292 | But then they serve those Chinese flavors. | 但后来它们又服务于中国的风味. |
| 1293 | So, for example, what we have is actually we inspired by my dining hall in Beijing | 所以,比如说,我们拥有的其实是 受到我在北京的餐厅的启发 |
| 1294 | University, those like trimming places, those like the tomato egg noodle places, they | 大学,那些喜欢修剪的地方, 那些喜欢番茄蛋面的地方,他们 |
| 1295 | basically just same assembly line. | 基本上就是同一条装配线 |
| 1296 | You choose some noodles and put some sauce on it, put some vegetable, whatever meat you | 你选点面,放点酱油,放点蔬菜,随便吃什么肉 |
| 1297 | want, and then you get your noodles and get wraps. | 想要,然后你得到你的面和包装。 |
| 1298 | So same thing like a Chipotle. | 和奇波特尔一样 |
| 1299 | So that's why we think the model is very, very similar. | 这就是为什么我们认为模型非常,非常相似。 |
| 1300 | There are no like American form because form is very neutral. | 因为形式非常中立,所以没有类似美国的形式. |
| 1301 | The flavor, the narratives, the story behind it is almost a culture. | 口味,叙事,背后的故事几乎是一种文化. |
| 1302 | So we think that's the kitchen is a new Chinese food, but it is Chinese food overall. | 所以,我们认为厨房是新的中国菜, 但这是中国菜。 |
| 1303 | So that's but also that provide a simplicity or operation that make American restaurant | 因此,除了提供简便 或操作 使美国餐馆 |
| 1304 | tour be able to be able to operate it. | 巡演可以进行操作. |
| 1305 | But now we're getting more professional so that we can get the nice day works. | 但现在我们越来越专业了 这样我们就可以得到美好的一天的工作。 |
| 1306 | That's a totally new institution of works of restaurant management. | 这是一个全新的餐厅管理机构。 |
| 1307 | But there's the details. | 但细节在这里 |
| 1308 | We can talk later about that. | 我们稍后再谈 |
| 1309 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 1310 | We've got a very wide range of questions today. | 我们今天的问题范围非常广泛。 |
| 1311 | I guess it's a very wide ranging conversation. | 我想这是一个非常广泛的对话。 |
| 1312 | Diane, can I unmute you so you can explain your question? | 黛安,我能不能请你解释一下你的问题? |
| 1313 | Cool. | 凉爽。 |
| 1314 | Thank you so much for sharing all these interesting stuff. | 谢谢你分享这些有趣的东西 |
| 1315 | So I'm just curious when Yong mentioned about sort of having new generations of Chinese | 所以我好奇的是,阿勇提到 有了新一代的中国人 |
| 1316 | immigrants and sort of coming in with a lot more confidence and coming over and sort of | 更自信地进来 然后过来 |
| 1317 | revamp the identity of Asian-American, like at large, starting from Chinese-Americans, | 改变亚裔美国人的身份 就像普通人一样 从中裔美国人开始 |
| 1318 | third generation, fourth generation, and so on, Americans. | 第三代,第四代,等等,美国人. |
| 1319 | And I just give them an undergrad experience in the states, like living and breathing | 我只是给他们一个在各州的大学毕业经历,比如生活和呼吸 |
| 1320 | the liberal America, like this idea of collectivism of Asian and Pacific Islander | 自由的美国,像这种 亚洲和太平洋岛民集体主义的想法 |
| 1321 | diaspora is so strong and they want to sort of merge into each other and sharing cultures | 散居国外的人很强壮 他们想互相融合 分享文化 |
| 1322 | and be like a collective force for bargain of influence in the states. | 并成为集体的力量 在各州的影响力讨价还价。 |
| 1323 | And I just feel like like your ideas of influence from new immigrants is cool, but I | 我只是觉得你对新移民的影响力的想法很酷,但我 |
| 1324 | feel like it's not going to be it's not going to happen the way you want it to happen. | 感觉它不会是 它不会发生 你希望它发生的方式。 |
| 1325 | Just want to have more conversation with that. | 我只是想多谈谈 |
| 1326 | That's a great question. | 问曰. |
| 1327 | I mean, I mean, the kind of social board members of the Museum | 我的意思是,我是说, 那种社会董事会成员 博物馆 |
| 1328 | of Chinese America. | 美国华人 |
| 1329 | So when we talk about this future of this vision of this museum is | 所以当我们谈论这个博物馆的未来时... |
| 1330 | like people always can argue a little bit about what's our identities that the Chinese | 就像人们总是可以争论一下 我们中国人的身份是什么 |
| 1331 | in America? | 在美国? |
| 1332 | Is it different from a Thai people in America? | 这与美国的一个泰国人不同吗? |
| 1333 | Is it different from like Korean in America? | 和美国的韩国人不一样吗? |
| 1334 | Is it different from Chinese in Mars? | 这和火星上的中国人不一样吗? |
| 1335 | So because this kind of actually geopolitical is going to tool the largest due to geopolitical | 所以,因为这种实际上的地缘政治 将会成为最大的工具 由于地缘政治 |
| 1336 | power. | 权力。 |
| 1337 | And that's the people in the other country. | 然此彼国众生. |
| 1338 | It's quite different. | 颇有不同. |
| 1339 | So I think eventually those those gravity of these the motherland of culture and influences | 因此,我认为最终 这些重力 这些文化和影响的祖国 |
| 1340 | will eventually differentiate Chinese immigrants a little bit from other kind of Asian or East | 最终将中国移民与其他亚洲或东亚移民区分开来 |
| 1341 | Asian Islander kind of identity of American one group them in there. | 亚裔岛民是美国人的一类特征 他们在那里。 |
| 1342 | But they're definitely going to be alliance going to happen. | 但他们绝对会结盟的 |
| 1343 | But in the meantime, they're going to be a difference from these identities can happen as | 但与此同时,他们将会与这些身份不同 可能因为 |
| 1344 | well. | 不错 |
| 1345 | So but not right now, because we're talking about every culture movement has a | 所以,但不是现在,因为我们谈论的 每一个文化运动有一个 |
| 1346 | year of lagging from the what's happening economically, socially, politically. | 经济、社会、政治方面 |
| 1347 | So and I think in five years from now, there's those potential effects and have more and | 所以,我想,在五年后, 未来,有这些潜在的影响 并有更多的, |
| 1348 | more impact. | 更有影响。 |
| 1349 | But I mean, what's current generation being been through is more almost like | 但是现在这代人经历的 更像是 |
| 1350 | the influence in the 2000 that at that moment. | 2000年的影响力 |
| 1351 | That's a question. | 问曰. |
| 1352 | Paul, a question for you about MSG. | 保罗,有个关于MSG的问题 |
| 1353 | And are there any reliable studies at all about the health impact of MSG? | 是否对医疗保障系统的健康影响进行过可靠的研究? |
| 1354 | That I don't know the answer to, I'm afraid. | 恐怕我还不知道答案 |
| 1355 | As far as I know, there is no reliable study that says MSG has a negative effect. | 据我所知,没有可靠的研究 说MSG有负面影响。 |
| 1356 | As a matter of fact, the only time people complain about MSG is when it's in Chinese | 事实上,人们抱怨MSG的唯一时间是用中文 |
| 1357 | food. | 饭食. |
| 1358 | They never complain about it, even though it's in Lay's potato chips and Doritos, | 他们从不抱怨,尽管它在拉伊的薯片和多里托斯, |
| 1359 | et cetera, et cetera. | 等经. |
| 1360 | So yeah, like seems like a similar thing that we've been seeing. | 所以,是的,就像一个类似的东西 我们一直在看到。 |
| 1361 | Yeah, and it's a very venerable scare. | 是啊,这是一个非常可怕的恐惧。 |
| 1362 | It goes back to the 1960s. | 追溯到1960年代. |
| 1363 | Jean, I'm going to unmute you and have you ask your question. | 珍,我要揭发你,让你问你的问题 |
| 1364 | Thank you for your insightful conversation. | 谢谢你的洞察力 |
| 1365 | And you talk about authenticity. | 你说的是真实性 |
| 1366 | I think it's a very important term or vocabulary in the realm of food. | 我认为它是食物领域非常重要的术语或词汇. |
| 1367 | So actually, it's quite complicated to discuss about, because when we're talking about | 所以实际上,这是相当复杂的讨论, 因为当我们谈论 |
| 1368 | authenticity, when we Chinese food go to America, there should be some adjustment to | 真实性,当我们中国食物去美国时,应该有所调整 |
| 1369 | them. | 他们。 |
| 1370 | So obviously, what Chinese food is not Chinese food to Chinese when the Chinese | 很明显,中国菜不是中国菜 |
| 1371 | restaurant want to survive in the context of America. | 餐厅想在美国生存 |
| 1372 | So there will be some some change to accommodate America. | 所以会有一些变化来适应美国。 |
| 1373 | So maybe we cannot call it authentic anymore in the perspective of Chinese. | 所以,也许我们不能再从中国人的角度说它是真实的。 |
| 1374 | But the thing is that how can we grasp the tradeoff? | 但问题是,我们如何把握取舍? |
| 1375 | How can we make a very appropriate point to meet both the authentic and while taking | 我们怎样才能提出一个非常恰当的点 既满足真实的,又接受 |
| 1376 | consideration to the taste of the localized people? | 考虑当地人的品味? |
| 1377 | Would you guys can give me some of your ideas? | 你们能给我一些想法吗? |
| 1378 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 1379 | I think that you can't achieve perfect authenticity partly because the | 我认为你无法实现完美的真实性 部分原因是 |
| 1380 | ingredients are not there, partly because you're not in the same country. | 部分是因为你不在同一国家 |
| 1381 | The atmosphere is not the same. | 气氛不同. |
| 1382 | This is like it's very hard to reproduce the feeling of a religious painting in a | 这就像很难再现 宗教绘画的感觉 |
| 1383 | museum because, you know, it's been taken out of its temple or its church or whatever | 博物馆,因为,你知道, 它已经被取出 它的寺庙或它的教堂或任何东西 |
| 1384 | its original context was. | 它的最初背景是。 |
| 1385 | But then again, you could say, well, you know, this was done in 1200 AD and and we're | 但后来,你可以说, 嗯,你知道,这是在公元1200年完成的,我们 |
| 1386 | not in 1200 AD anymore. | 已经不是1200年了 |
| 1387 | You know, the world doesn't smell the same. | 知世间不异闻. |
| 1388 | It doesn't look the same. | 外观不一. |
| 1389 | We don't have the same set of assumptions. | 我们没有相同的假设。 |
| 1390 | So once you say that you can't have authenticity, that, of course, doesn't mean to | 所以,一旦你说你不能有真实性, 当然,这并不意味着 |
| 1391 | say that bad ingredients are fine. | 说不好的成分是好的。 |
| 1392 | So I think one can still make judgments of food that's better or worse, depending on | 所以,我认为人们仍然可以做出判断 食物的好坏,取决于 |
| 1393 | the ingredients or on the skill or bigger questions. | 内容或者技能或者更大的问题 |
| 1394 | A lot of the Chinese restaurants in the middle of America have tended to be buffets, | 许多美国中部的中餐馆 往往都是自助餐 |
| 1395 | and that's partly because it's easier for people who don't speak English very well. | 这部分是因为对英语不通的人来说,这更容易. |
| 1396 | They don't have to explain things on the menu. | 他们不必解释菜单上的东西。 |
| 1397 | People can just see them. | 人们能看见他们 |
| 1398 | And it also Americans love choice. | 美国人也喜欢选择 |
| 1399 | But it's not really very good for the food to sit around. | 但对于食物的坐视不理 |
| 1400 | So, you know, it's it's OK to critique that. | 所以,你知道,这是可以批评的。 |
| 1401 | And an answer is not just, oh, well, you know, you're just hung up on authenticity. | 答案不仅仅是,哦,嗯,你知道, 你只是挂在真实性上。 |
| 1402 | So the fact that there is no perfect authenticity doesn't mean that there isn't | 所以没有完全真实的事实 并不意味着没有 |
| 1403 | good and there isn't bad food. | 好,没有坏食物。 |
| 1404 | It's all cuisines are admixtures of influences from elsewhere. | 所有烹调都是来自别处的影响的混合体. |
| 1405 | And as as Young said, any breathing culture is going to be changing. | 正如Young所说,任何呼吸文化都会改变。 |
| 1406 | But the inauthentic or the. | 但阴阳相或. |
| 1407 | Wait a moment, this just doesn't work. | 等等,这不行 |
| 1408 | Exists everywhere. | 到处都有 |
| 1409 | And, you know, actually, I would say the Chinese food is not | 而且,你知道,实际上,我会说,中国菜不是 |
| 1410 | necessarily the main global victim of inauthentic manipulation. | 必然是非正当操纵的主要全球受害者。 |
| 1411 | Historically, it is because it's been around and manipulated | 历史上,它一直被操纵 |
| 1412 | for one hundred forty years or so. | 一百四十年左右的时间 |
| 1413 | At the moment, I would say globally Mexican food, | 现在,我要说全球墨西哥食品, |
| 1414 | what's called Tex-Mex in many countries that I've been to in Asia | 我去过亚洲的许多国家 被称为Tex-Mex |
| 1415 | and Europe is dreadful and inauthentic. | 欧洲是可怕的和不正确的。 |
| 1416 | And so, you know, if if I were | 所以,你知道, 如果我是, |
| 1417 | from Mexico, I would either laugh or cry, depending on what kind of personality | 从墨西哥,我要么笑要么哭 取决于什么样的人格 |
| 1418 | 我有过 I had. | |
| 1419 | So, you know, there are promising roads | 所以,你知道,有充满希望的道路 |
| 1420 | and there are unpromising roads for inauthenticity. | 和没有预言的道路 不正确。 |
| 1421 | There's innovation and there's just | 有创新,有正义 |
| 1422 | lowest common denominator, as as we say, that is appealing. | 正如我们所说的那样,这是有吸引力的。 |
| 1423 | You figure out a formula that's cheap and people like it and then you don't care | 你找出一个便宜的公式 和人们喜欢它,然后你不在乎 |
| 1424 | about about about what you serve. | 关于你们所崇拜的, |
| 1425 | One of the things about this movie that I mentioned, The Search for General Tso is | 我提到的这部电影之一 寻找将军特索 |
| 1426 | that they interviewed Chinese restaurant owners in Missouri, New Mexico, | 他们采访了密苏里,新墨西哥州的中国餐馆老板, |
| 1427 | in the middle of the country along the once famous Route 66, more or less. | 大约在66号公路沿线的中部 |
| 1428 | And some of them really want to educate their customers and, you know, want | 他们中有些人真的想教育他们的顾客, 你知道,想要 |
| 1429 | to bring them to food that is certainly closer to what | 使他们得食,那确是更近的; |
| 1430 | they themselves eat, what they cook for their own families. | 他们自己吃,他们为自己的家庭做饭。 |
| 1431 | And others are just happy. | 而其他人只是高兴。 |
| 1432 | There's a whole passion for chicken with cashew nuts that's in Missouri. | 在密苏里州对带腰果的鸡肉有一种完全的热情. |
| 1433 | And, you know, that's not authentic. | 而且,你知道,这不是真实的。 |
| 1434 | And that doesn't appeal to me either. | 这对我也没有吸引力。 |
| 1435 | Undoubtedly, it's sweet. | 毫无疑问,这是甜蜜的。 |
| 1436 | But, | 不过 |
| 1437 | you know, there's a certain exuberance that that is undeniable, even if it's not, | 你知道,有某种活力 这是不可否认的, 即使它不是, |
| 1438 | you know, my taste. | 你知道,我的口味。 。 。 |
| 1439 | There's a trick to make authentic though. | 有把戏做真实的虽然。 |
| 1440 | So I bring that's what you guys are trying to do. | 所以,我带来了 这就是你们想做的。 |
| 1441 | Right. | 对 |
| 1442 | That's one of your projects. | 那是你的项目之一 |
| 1443 | You know, I bring the don't be like there's like a bottle to Americans. | 你知道,我带不 像有一个瓶子给美国人。 |
| 1444 | Right. | 对 |
| 1445 | They think, well, this is the best sweet sour pork they ever have. | 他们认为,这是他们最好的酸肉 |
| 1446 | Right. | 对 |
| 1447 | Those can be done in authentic ways, but only a few like the same thing. | 这些可以以真实的方式进行,但只有少数类似的事情. |
| 1448 | Like you want to teach something, learn from university to elementary school. | 就像你想教东西一样,从大学到小学都学习. |
| 1449 | But there is some authentic kind of interesting experiment and display to | 但也有一些真实的实验和展示 |
| 1450 | make the kids very interested as long as you make it easy. | 让孩子们非常感兴趣 只要你让它容易。 |
| 1451 | So the bandwidth understanding of where they are, it's very important for | 因此,带宽理解 它们在哪里, 这是非常重要的 |
| 1452 | educators. | 教育家们 |
| 1453 | So you don't want to bring those sea cucumbers because nobody | 所以你不想带海参来,因为没人 |
| 1454 | understands sea cucumbers in America. | 了解美国的海参 |
| 1455 | Nobody eat it. | 没有人吃它。 |
| 1456 | They will even pay for them. | 他们甚至会付出代价 |
| 1457 | You pay them to eat it. | 你付钱让他们吃 |
| 1458 | They won't do it because they think that's disgusting. | 他们不会这样做,因为他们觉得这很恶心. |
| 1459 | And then there's no way to understand what's all nuance behind it. | 然则无以明其背后一切微细. |
| 1460 | The sea cucumbers. | 海参. |
| 1461 | So then, yeah, you have to come back to pork, sweet pork sometimes. | 所以,是啊,你必须回来 猪肉,甜猪肉有时。 |
| 1462 | And also, like Basi di Gua, like sweet caramelized sweet potatoes. | 还有,像Basi di Gua一样,像甜甜的焦糖化的甜薯. |
| 1463 | They think that's like the best dish they ever have. | 他们认为这是他们最好的菜 |
| 1464 | So it's a simple dish. | 所以,这是一个简单的菜肴。 |
| 1465 | So I went to my colleague, their typical Americans to China to have a visit, to | 所以我去找我的同事 他们典型的美国人来中国参观 |
| 1466 | taste different kind of food. | 品尝不同的食物 |
| 1467 | The way I go through the menu is like I go reverse it. | 我通过菜单的方式就像我逆着它。 |
| 1468 | So because in the Chinese menu is all the big and those kind of big, famous | 因为中国菜单里 全是大块头 也是大块头 |
| 1469 | finger dishes all in front. | 手指盘都放在前面 |
| 1470 | And there is like the small stuff in the end. | 最后会像小东西一样 |
| 1471 | But when to Americans, you reverse it and those the small stuff in the end is | 但当对美国人来说,你倒置 它和那些小东西最后是 |
| 1472 | always most appealing to them. | 总是最吸引他们。 |
| 1473 | It's simple, easy tasting. | 简单易尝. |
| 1474 | Yeah, it's all it tastes very good as well. | 是啊,这是所有它的味道 非常好也。 |
| 1475 | All the front part of that is obvious for them. | 对他们来说,前半部分都是显而易见的。 |
| 1476 | Maybe I'll try it. | 也许我会试试 |
| 1477 | I'll try one. | 我试试看 |
| 1478 | It's OK. | 没事的 |
| 1479 | They will want to try again sometimes. | 他们有时会想再试一次 |
| 1480 | Well, it reminds me of the potato salad we had at that one restaurant in Beijing. | 这让我想起了我们在北京一家餐馆吃过的土豆沙拉。 |
| 1481 | But yeah, but you know, during my trip to China after a week or so, I realized | 但是,是的,但你知道, 在我访问中国 一个星期左右,我意识到 |
| 1482 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}这些不同的盘子 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我们一直被供应着 | |
| 1483 | that resembled what I was familiar with. | 这和我熟悉的差不多 |
| 1484 | I mean, I loved the idea of experimentation, but, you know, I realized | 我的意思是,我喜欢实验的想法, 但是,你知道,我意识到 |
| 1485 | that, oh, gosh, I've actually helped myself to the twice cooked pork four times. | 哦,天啊,我帮自己做了四次猪肉 |
| 1486 | And I left the scary seahorses just for one taste. | 我离开可怕的海马 只为一种味道。 |
| 1487 | So, yeah, one is formed, however sophisticated one thinks they are. | 所以,是的,一个是成型的, 无论人们认为它们是什么。 |
| 1488 | You know, you're formed by your culture. | 你知道,你是由你的文化形成的。 |
| 1489 | Yeah, I will. | 是的,我会的。 |
| 1490 | I will add another note on authenticity. | 我将补充另一个关于真实性的说明。 |
| 1491 | That's I think pretty interesting is if you've traveled in China, you'll notice | 如果你去过中国 你会发现 |
| 1492 | that like different regions in China obviously have very different ideas of | 像中国不同地区一样,显然对 |
| 1493 | what certain dishes look like. | 某些盘子是什么样子的。 |
| 1494 | Right. | 对 |
| 1495 | So even in China, like Sichuan food in Beijing is not very authentic sometimes. | 因此,即使是在中国,比如北京的四川菜有时也不十分真实. |
| 1496 | Like it doesn't taste like it does in Sichuan. | 譬如四川无味. |
| 1497 | Right. | 对 |
| 1498 | So China is a huge place and there are places within China that don't have | 所以,中国是一个巨大的地方, 在中国有的地方没有 |
| 1499 | authentic regional foods. | 真正的地区食品。 |
| 1500 | Right. | 对 |
| 1501 | So it's not really that surprising that once you've moved to another location, | 所以当你搬到另一个地方 这并不奇怪 |
| 1502 | even within China, things don't taste quite the way they do from where they're | 即使是在中国, 事情的味道也不如从前那样 |
| 1503 | from, even if they're made by people who are from that area. | 从,即使它们是由来自该地区的人制造的。 |
| 1504 | Right. | 对 |
| 1505 | And so when we talk about authenticity. | 所以,当我们谈论真实性。 |
| 1506 | This happens in so many countries. | 这在如此之多的国家发生。 |
| 1507 | My work as a medievalist is mostly, as you said, in northeastern Spain and Catalonia. | 我作为一个中世纪主义者的工作, 大部分,正如你说的, 在西班牙东北部和加泰罗尼亚。 |
| 1508 | And there are two dishes that everybody eats all the time. | 还有两道菜 每个人都经常吃 |
| 1509 | One is extremely simple. | 一个非常简单。 |
| 1510 | It's bread toasted or grilled preferably with tomatoes smeared on it and olive oil. | 烤面包最好涂上番茄和橄榄油 |
| 1511 | And it just doesn't taste right outside of Catalonia. | 它只是不 味道就在加泰罗尼亚之外。 |
| 1512 | You know, even in like other parts of Spain, even in Aragon, you know, like | 甚至在西班牙的其他地方 甚至在阿拉贡 |
| 1513 | across the river, it's not quite right. | 河对岸 不太对劲 |
| 1514 | And then there's a kind of pastry made with sweetened spaghetti squash called | 还有一种糕点 用甜面团做的,叫 |
| 1515 | ensamada, and this is a specialty of Mallorca, the island of Mallorca. | 这是马略卡岛的特产 |
| 1516 | And in Barcelona, it doesn't taste right. | 而在巴塞罗那,它的味道并不正确. |
| 1517 | And I can taste the difference. | 亦能品尝差别. |
| 1518 | And I'm not actually a person with a particularly well-developed food | 我其实不是一个有特别发达食物的人 |
| 1519 | memory or palate, but is it the water? | 记忆或甜味,但这是水吗? |
| 1520 | Is it these are things with very few ingredients, but nevertheless, somehow | 这些东西的成分很少,但是,不知怎么的 |
| 1521 | outside of their home territory, narrowly defined, don't quite work. | 在他们自己的领地之外, 狭义的定义, 不太工作。 |
| 1522 | Right. | 对 |
| 1523 | And I guess one final nuance about authenticity. | 我想还有一点关于真实性 |
| 1524 | I mean, tomatoes are from the Americas, right? | 我的意思是,西红柿来自美洲,对不对? |
| 1525 | So like, you know, canton, you could say is inauthentic Spanish food because, you | 所以,你知道,州,你可以说 是非真实的西班牙食物 因为,你 |
| 1526 | know, they haven't had pomtomaca for more than 150 years, right? | 你知道,他们已经150年没有 pomtomaca 超过150年,对不对? |
| 1527 | And chilies are from South America as well. | 辣椒也来自南美 |
| 1528 | Right. | 对 |
| 1529 | So like, imagine Sichuan food with no chili peppers or Korean food with no | 想象一下四川菜没有辣椒 韩国菜没有辣椒 |
| 1530 | chili peppers, right? | 辣椒 对吧? |
| 1531 | Like those were inauthentic. | 像那些是非真实的。 |
| 1532 | Or Indian food with no chili peppers. | 或印度菜无辣椒. |
| 1533 | As of 300 years ago, those would have been inauthentic too. | 到三百年前,这些本来也是不正确的。 |
| 1534 | Somebody, somebody in Western Gujarat said, are you kidding? | 古吉拉特西部有人说 你在开玩笑吗? |
| 1535 | What this is, this isn't how my grandmother cooked. | 这不是我祖母做的 |
| 1536 | Right. | 对 |
| 1537 | And, you know, it's like 1600 AD. | 而且,你知道,这就像1600AD。 |
| 1538 | Okay. | 摆 |
| 1539 | I think we're approaching the end of our time. | 我想我们快到了 |
| 1540 | I guess we'll just, there are a couple of questions left, but I guess any last | 我想我们只是,还有几个问题, 但我猜任何最后一个 |
| 1541 | words from, from both of you, I thank you guys both for a fascinating conversation. | 你们俩的言辞 感谢你们两人的精彩谈话 |
| 1542 | Oh, well, thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 1543 | And, you know, I'd be glad to hear from you if you have questions that | 而且,你知道,我会很高兴 从你听到 如果你有问题, |
| 1544 | we haven't gotten around to. | 我们还没来得及 |
| 1545 | My email is on the Yale history department website. | 我的电子邮件在耶鲁大学历史系网站上 |
| 1546 | I want to show one picture I have with Cecilia. | 我想展示一张照片 我与塞西莉亚。 |
| 1547 | I think I can show that. | 我想我可以证明这一点。 |
| 1548 | So this is a picture of Cecilia after the celebration of her legacy in | 这是塞西莉亚在庆祝她的遗产之后的照片 |
| 1549 | the PF Chan restaurant, she took us to a Thai food places and the way, Paul, | 她带我们去泰国吃东西的地方 保罗 |
| 1550 | you were there, right? | 你当时在场 对吧? |
| 1551 | Uh, I can't remember if I was at the, at, at the after party. | 呃,我不记得我是不是在, 在,在,在之后的聚会。 |
| 1552 | Yeah, it's after the party, they're eating crickets. | 是啊,这是在晚会后, 他们吃板球。 |
| 1553 | So Cecilia, the kind of person who eat this, like eat anything. | 所以塞西莉亚,那种人 谁吃这个,喜欢吃任何东西。 |
| 1554 | That's interesting. | 这很有趣。 |
| 1555 | Um, and then I think when people ask about my, uh, one sentence, when | 嗯,然后我想 当人们问我,嗯,一句话,什么时候 |
| 1556 | Cecilia said past, I think Cecilia is the most optimistic person in the most, uh, | 西西莉亚说,过去, 我认为西西莉亚是最乐观的人 在最,呃, |
| 1557 | in most like pathetic time of Chinese culture at that moment. | 在当时最可悲的中国文化时期 |
| 1558 | Um, cause China is like at the moment, we just leave the China inclusion act. | 嗯,因为中国就像现在, 我们只是离开中国的包容法案。 |
| 1559 | Uh, everyone is like Chinese people in the Chinese community, they're | 呃,每个人都像中国人 在华人社区,他们是 |
| 1560 | living in a poor life, a lot of gangsters. | 生活很穷 很多黑社会 |
| 1561 | So Cecilia is like trying to become decent person and do a decent business. | 所以塞西莉亚就像想成为一个体面的人 做一个体面的生意 |
| 1562 | So, so different and she make that everything happens. | 所以,如此不同 她使一切发生。 |
| 1563 | I think that spirit is just something we really can inherit from all the years | 我认为这种精神只是我们这些年真正可以继承的东西 |
| 1564 | about cultural communication, being optimistic, proactive, want to teach | 关于文化交流,乐观,主动,想教书 |
| 1565 | people, always want to help people, but it's very, very important. | 人,总是想帮助人, 但是这是非常重要的。 |
| 1566 | Um, so yeah, that's one, one thing I think from today's event, the one | 嗯,所以是的,这是一件事,我想 从今天的活动, |
| 1567 | really, um, from the legacy of the Cecilia is, uh, it's more about the, | 塞西莉亚留下的遗产 更多是关于... |
| 1568 | there's kind of this passionate, uh, optimism about future. | 有种这种热情,呃,乐观的未来。 |
| 1569 | Thank you for sharing that. | 谢谢大家分享 |
| 1570 | That's great. | 赞曰. |
| 1571 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 1572 | Thank you everybody. | 谢谢大家 |
| 1573 | I know there were a couple of questions we didn't quite get to, but, uh, thank | 我知道有些问题我们还没解决 但是 谢谢 |
| 1574 | you both, uh, Jayong and Paul for joining us. | 你们两个,呃,Jayong和保罗 加入我们。 |
| 1575 | Uh, thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 1576 | It's a wonderful time. | 极乐时节. |
| 1577 | Uh, I will shoot, uh, my WeChat, uh, to the, to the, to the channel. | 嗯,我会拍摄,呃,我的 WeChat,呃,去,去频道。 |
| 1578 | So if you want, you can talk to me there. | 所以,如果你愿意,你可以跟我说话在那里。 |
| 1579 | Sure. | 当然 |
| 1580 | Yeah. | 对 |
| 1581 | So, uh, Paul has mentioned, you know, you can look up his, his, uh, | 所以,呃,保罗已经提到, 你知道,你可以查他的,他的,呃, |
| 1582 | email on the Yale website. | 耶鲁大学网站上的电子邮件 |
| 1583 | Um, and that is, uh, Jayong. | 嗯,这是,呃,贾荣。 |
| 1584 | Here it is. | 在这里。 |
| 1585 | There you go. | 给你。 |
| 1586 | My email is so very simple. | 我的邮件太简单了 |
| 1587 | If you want that route as well. | 如果你也想要这条路线的话 |
| 1588 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 1589 | Thank you guys so much. | 非常感谢你们。 |
| 1590 | Uh, we look forward to more conversations, um, as you guys, some of us, uh, some of | 嗯,我们期待着更多的对话, 嗯,随着你们, 一些我们,呃,一些 |
| 1591 | you have been joining us pretty regularly. | 你经常加入我们 |
| 1592 | So very wide ranging topics. | 如此广泛的话题。 |
| 1593 | Um, and as always, let us know if there are topics that you'd be interested in | 嗯,和往常一样,让我们知道 如果有话题你会感兴趣 |
| 1594 | hearing more about. | 听到更多关于。 |
| 1595 | All right. | 好吧,我们走。 |
| 1596 | Thank you so much. | 非常感谢 |
| 1597 | Bye bye. | 再见 |
| 1598 | Evening and the good rest of the day to those of you guys in China. | 晚上和美好的一天 给在中国的人。 |
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