“科学与哲学之战，并不是中世纪的而是现代的”，耶鲁学者的新作

“科学与哲学之战，并不是中世纪的而是现代的”，耶鲁学者的新作为何被称“颠覆历史”？

发布于 2022-11-01 · 时长 1:04:35

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	All right.	好吧,我们走。
0:04	Hello, everybody.	哈罗,大家好。
0:05	Thank you for joining us.	谢谢你加入我们。
0:08	For those of you guys that are joining us	为了你们这些加入我们的人
0:10	in China, good evening to you.	在中国,晚安
0:13	And for those of you guys joining us, if you're in the US,	而你们这些家伙加入我们, 如果你在美国,
0:17	nice and early good morning to you.	早上好,早上好,你好吗?
0:19	And if you happen to be somewhere else,	如果你碰巧在别的地方
0:21	I hope you're having a good day.	希望你今天过得愉快
0:23	My name is Devin Lau.	我叫刘德文

展开字幕全文（942 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	All right.	好吧,我们走。
2	Hello, everybody.	哈罗,大家好。
3	Thank you for joining us.	谢谢你加入我们。
4	For those of you guys that are joining us	为了你们这些加入我们的人
5	in China, good evening to you.	在中国,晚安
6	And for those of you guys joining us, if you're in the US,	而你们这些家伙加入我们, 如果你在美国,
7	nice and early good morning to you.	早上好,早上好,你好吗?
8	And if you happen to be somewhere else,	如果你碰巧在别的地方
9	I hope you're having a good day.	希望你今天过得愉快
10	My name is Devin Lau.	我叫刘德文
11	I'm the Associate Director for Yale	我是耶鲁大学的副局长
12	Center Beijing.	北京中心报.
13	And I'm very happy today to be joined by Professor Ivano del Prete	今天我很高兴和伊万诺·德尔普雷特教授一起
14	for what promises to be a very fascinating talk.	对于什么承诺是一个非常迷人的谈话。
15	A quick introduction about Yale Center Beijing.	关于耶鲁中心北京的简要介绍.
16	We are established in 2014, and we are Yale's only university-wide center.	我们成立于2014年,是耶鲁唯一的全大学中心.
17	We work together, academia with the general public.	我们合作,学术界与公众合作。
18	And we've had a good time throughout	而且我们玩得很开心
19	the pandemic introducing all the different work that goes on at Yale to our audience	将耶鲁大学的所有不同作品介绍给我们的观众
20	这里的Zoom。
21	And we've done everything from astronomy to art history to economics	我们从天文学到艺术史到经济学都做了很多事
22	to biology to drama to music.	生物学和音乐
23	And so good to have a talk more in my personal wheelhouse as I was a	很高兴能在我的私人车库里多聊聊
24	history major in college.	大学历史专业.
25	And so today we'll be talking a little bit about the intersection of	因此,今天我们将谈一点点的交叉点
26	history and history of science and religion and society and philosophy.	历史与历史科学与宗教社会与哲学.
27	So I think it'll be	所以,我想这将是
28	very interesting talk.	非常有趣的谈话。
29	As you all know, it would be great if you would be able to turn on your	大家知道,如果你能打开你的手机,那就太好了
30	webcams.	网络摄像头。
31	If you're able to, that would always be an advantage to be able to see some people	如果你有能力,那永远是能够见到一些人的好处
32	and to be able to interact with people in whatever limited capacity that we can.	能够以我们所能以的有限能力与人们互动。
33	It's always better than staring at a blank wall of names.	总比盯着空白的名字墙好
34	So if you're able to turn on your webcam,	如果你能打开你的摄像头
35	it would be much appreciated.	非常感谢。
36	Let me introduce our speaker for today.	让我介绍今天的发言者。
37	And then I will turn things	然后我会改变一切
38	over to him.	交给他
39	Professor Ivano del Prete, a senior lecturer and currently director of undergraduate	伊万诺·德尔普雷特教授,高级讲师,现任本科主任
40	studies in the history of science and medicine program at Yale.	在耶鲁大学学习科学和医学课程的历史。
41	He earned his PhD from the	他的博士学位来自
42	University of Verona in Italy and has taught and conducted research at many places around the	意大利维罗纳大学,曾任教和研究
43	world, including the University of Minnesota, Columbia University, the Harvard Center in Florence,	包括明尼苏达大学、哥伦比亚大学、佛罗伦萨哈佛中心
44	the Huntington Library in Southern California, as well as the Italian Academy for Event Studies	南加州亨廷顿图书馆以及意大利事件研究学院
45	in America at Columbia University.	在美国哥伦比亚大学。
46	His work has been published extensively and it's covering social	他的作品已广泛出版,并涵盖社会
47	and cultural history of early modern astronomy, earth sciences, scientific networks, and science	现代天文学、地球科学、科学网络和科学
48	and religion.	宗教问题。
49	And perhaps more interestingly, he is an active amateur astronomer who has a soft	也许更有趣的是,他是一个活跃的业余天文学家他有一个柔软的
50	spot for Saturn and Mars, as well as has himself co-discovered several asteroids.	土星和火星的位置他自己也发现了几颗小行星
51	So pretty	这么漂亮
52	interesting side hobby there.	有趣的副业爱好在那里。
53	And then from what I understand in his next book, he will be turning	然后从我在他的下一本书中了解到他将会转身
54	his attention to the other earths in the sky and to the fascinating cultural history of	他关注着天空中的其他大地以及令人着迷的文化史
55	extraterrestrial life.	外生众生.
56	But before we get to that next book that he's working on, we want to talk	但是在我们拿到他正在写的下一本书之前我们想谈谈
57	about his latest and just recently published book, which he's been working on.	关于他最近出版的书他一直在研究
58	So I'll turn	所以我转身
59	things over to him so that he can tell us all about it.	事情交给他这样他才能告诉我们一切
60	Thank you, David, for this wonderful	谢谢你,大卫,这太棒了
61	invitation.	请柬。
62	And please let me thank you and let me say that I'm really honored to share	请让我谢谢你让我说我很荣幸地分享
63	my recent research with this public.	我最近对公众的研究
64	And I will start from the very beginning.	我从头开始
65	I hope that you can	我希望你能够
66	see my first slide, which is just my face and the cover of my latest book, On the Edge of Eternity,	看我的第一张幻灯片,它只是我的脸和我最新书的封面, 关于永恒的边缘,
67	The Antiquity of the Earth in Medieval and Early Modern Europe.	中世纪和早期现代欧洲的地球古代.
68	Now, one of the most important	现在,最重要的一个
69	narratives in the history of Western civilization is the rise of scientific rationalism	西方文明史上的叙述是科学理性主义的兴起
70	between about 1500 and 1800.	大约在1500到1800年间.
71	As the story goes, the invention of modern science	现代科学的发明
72	gave European countries and their colonial offshoots, modern America, of course, the	给欧洲国家和他们的殖民地分支, 现代美国,当然,
73	technical edge that allowed a small periphery of the Eurasian continent to dominate for a certain	技术优势使得欧亚大陆的一小块边缘能够主宰某个
74	period the rest of the world.	将世界的其余地区永久化。
75	And according to a widely received account, this happens	根据广受欢迎的报导,
76	when Western science managed to shake off the religious constraints that for many centuries	当西方科学成功摆脱了几个世纪以来的宗教束缚
77	stifled its development.	扼杀了它的发展。
78	The famous trial of Galileo here in a later painting, when religious	伽利略的著名审判在这里在后来的画, 当宗教
79	authorities forced one of the greatest scientists ever to recant his conviction that the Earth	当局强迫史上最伟大的科学家之一放弃对地球的信念
80	moves around the sun rather than the opposite, has long victimized this narrative.	绕着太阳移动,而不是相反, 长期使这种叙事受害。
81	A similarly	一个类似的
82	important place has been reserved to the 18th century discovery.	18世纪的发现保留了重要位置
83	And I use a quotation mark	我用一个引号
84	because I do not agree that it was the discovery, as we see, but the discovery of the death of	因为我不认为这是我们所看到的发现而是对死亡的发现
85	geological time, that the fact that the Earth is extremely old.	地质时间地球已经非常古老
86	As historian Paolo Rossi put it in	正如历史学家保罗·罗西所言
87	his classic The Dark Abyss of Time, men in Robert Hooke's time, that would be the late 1600s,	罗伯特·胡克时代的男士也就是1600年代晚期
88	Robert Hooke was a contemporary of Newton, had a past of 6,000 years.	罗伯特·胡克是牛顿的当代人,有6000年的历史.
89	Those of Kant's time, that is	康德时代的,就是
90	a journal philosopher in Manner Kant in the late 1700s, were conscious of a past of millions of	1700年代后期曼纳康德的一位杂志哲学家已经意识到了数百万的过去
91	years.	岁月
92	Of course, most human cultures, and I guess even Chinese culture, could hardly find it	当然,大多数人类文化,我猜甚至中国文化,都找不到
93	problematic that the Earth might be billions of years old.	地球可能有数十亿年的历史
94	But this was supposedly unthinkable	但这是不可思议的
95	in the Christian West, since the biblical book of Genesis describes a creation of the Earth by God	自从圣经《创世记》描述了上帝创造的地球
96	and of life taking place over six days, no more than a few thousand years ago.	和生命发生在六天以上, 不超过几千年前。
97	And indeed,	事实上,
98	despite the overwhelming scientific evidence, an ancient Earth has remained controversial and a	尽管科学证据确凿但古老的地球仍然充满争议
99	bit contentious in the following two or three hundred years.	在接下来的两三百年里有点争议
100	In 20th century America in particular,	特别是在20世纪的美国,
101	some religious groups that oppose organic evolution have tried to deny it by arguing that the planet	一些反对有机进化的宗教团体试图否认它,认为地球
102	may not be old enough for evolution to take place.	可能还不足以进行进化
103	And this picture, by the way, was taken by	顺便说一句这张照片是被
104	one of my students on campus just a couple of weeks ago.	几周前我的一个学生在校园里
105	And this person doesn't have a great	这个人并不伟大
106	public apparently, but I guess it would probably be different if he was speaking in Kansas or Louisiana	不过如果他在堪萨斯州或路易斯安那州演讲可能会不一样
107	or other parts of the country.	或该国其他地区。
108	Their stance is reinforced by what is a very normal assumption	他们的立场被一个非常正常的假设所强化
109	that everyone shares.	每个人分享。
110	That is, Christian cultural traditions always rejected the antiquity of the	也就是说,基督教文化传统总是否定古老的
111	until the rise of a secular science during the 1700s.	直到1700年代世俗科学的兴起.
112	And this account is widely regarded as	这个说法被广泛认为
113	historical common sense and is shared not only by creationists, but even by professional geologists,	历史常识不仅被创造者分享甚至被专业地质学家分享
114	historical science and the broader society alike.	历史科学和更广泛的社会。
115	Like it or not, this is what happened.	喜欢与否,这是发生了什么事。
116	We have	我们有
117	a time before 1700s when everybody in Europe thought that the Earth is more or less six thousand	在1700年代之前欧洲每个人都认为地球大概有六千个
118	years old and a post-1700 time when the geological antiquity of the Earth and humankind	地球和人类的地质古迹
119	was discovered.	被发现了
120	On the edge of eternity, it tends to demonstrate that this fundamental	在永恒的边缘,它倾向于证明,这个根本的
121	premise of the narrative of the rise of the modern Western civilization does not have	关于现代西方文明崛起的叙述的前提没有
122	any historical basis.	任何历史依据。
123	And it sets out to outline for the first time in the last 150 years a	过去150年中第一次提出
124	different account of the Western history of deep time.	对西方历史的描述不同
125	Against received notions,	与得到的概念相反,
126	this book claims that first medieval and early modern Earth history was a complex, sophisticated	这本书声称,第一部中世纪和早期的现代地球史是一部复杂,复杂的
127	and controversial subject.	和有争议的话题。
128	There was nothing like a uniform belief that the Earth is six thousand	世上只有六千个地球
129	years old and that's it.	岁且道.
130	No, there was the existence of a variety of different sources	不,有各种不同的来源
131	and approaches and the generalist account of the creation was there, but of course it was just	和方式和一般的描述创造,但当然它只是
132	one of them.	其中一个
133	Many others advocated the plausibility of an Earth of indefinite age	许多其他人主张,一个无限时代的地球是可信的。
134	that could accommodate even extremely long geological eras.	甚至可以容纳极长的地质时代
135	Second, and to me extremely	第二,对我而言
136	important, those alternatives or even complementary views to Genesis were not restricted to the lone	重要的是,《创世纪》的这些替代办法或甚至补充性观点并不限于孤独者。
137	elites.	上流社会
138	Vernacular literature that was the rough equivalent of our popular science, so as to speak,	与我们大众科学的粗略相对应的文体文学
139	spread the theory freely even among working classing or social groups who did not receive	甚至在工人阶级或社会群体中自由传播该理论
140	a formal education and were not conversant in the scholarly language of the time, that is Latin,	正规教育,不通晓当时的学术语言,即拉丁语,
141	that language in medieval and early modern Europe that had to be learned and that was the language	中世纪和早期现代欧洲的语言必须学习,这就是语言
142	of the church and of an intellectual elite.	教会和知识精英
143	This is a crucial point because you can always find that	这是一个关键点因为你总能找到
144	some unorthodox thinkers or the usual geniuses ahead of our time whose existence does not really	一些非正统的思想家或通常的天才在我们时代之前,
145	change in the overall picture.	总体情况的变化。
146	However, when those scientific theories are diverged in deductive	然而,当这些科学理论在推论上出现分歧时,
147	work, works written in the spoken language of the place and meant for a large audience and no one	工作,用当地语言写成的作品,为广大观众而无人
148	has a problem with that, this means that they were culturally and socially acceptable.	这一点有问题,这意味着在文化和社会上是可以接受的。
149	And third,	还有第三
150	this leaves us with a big question.	这让我们有一个大问题。
151	If this is true and I believe that the evidence is	如果这是真的我相信证据是
152	questionable, why do we have and have we had for such a long time a very different account of the	值得怀疑的是,我们为什么这么长一段时间以来有和有非常不同的描述
153	Western history of the time?	当时的西方历史?
154	How was the narrative born and why has it remained basically unchallenged	叙述是如何诞生的,为什么它基本上没有受到质疑
155	for more than two centuries?	两个多世纪了?
156	In the next 20 minutes or so, I will first present some of the	在接下来的20分钟左右,我将首先介绍一些
157	evidence that I have collected to support my argument and I want to say it is just a small	我收集的证据支持我的论点我想说这只是一个小
158	part of this evidence what I can show you in 15 minutes or so, but I think it will be compelling	我15分钟后可以给你们看的证据之一但我认为这很吸引人
159	and then I will try to answer these questions that I posed in point three and finally I will	然后我会试着回答这些问题我提出的第三点,最后我会
160	propose to your consideration some of the thoughts that researching and writing this book have inspired	建议你考虑研究和写这本书所激发的一些想法
161	to me.	对我来说。
162	Most of these examples come from a relatively small area in central and northern Italy and from	这些例子大多来自意大利中部和北部相对较小的地区,也来自
163	places like Florence and Venice that are probably known to you or Arezzo that is a much smaller city	像佛罗伦萨和威尼斯这样的地方你可能知道或阿雷佐是一个小得多的城市
164	about 30 miles, 35 miles south of Florence, so a small place, but the fact is starting around the	在佛罗伦萨以南约30英里35英里, 所以是一个小地方, 但事实开始于
165	year 1200, the economic and political environment in this area became particularly conducive to the	在1200年,该领域的经济和政治环境变得特别有利。
166	production of scientific texts in the vernacular that I was especially interested in, so this is	用我特别感兴趣的方言制作科学文本,所以
167	the best place where you can find these kind of sources.	这是你能找到这些来源的最佳地点
168	There are a few others in Europe, but none	欧洲也有少数其他的,但是没有
169	is as good as this one.	和这个一样好
170	Exhibit A.	展览A。
171	The first example that I will present comes from indeed this	我首先要举出的第一个例子就是
172	small Toscan city of Arezzo, about 35 miles south of Florence, much smaller right now,	托斯坎小城市阿雷佐, 佛罗伦萨以南约35英里, 现在小得多,
173	but in the 13th century it was a quite populous and important city in its own.	但是在13世纪,它是一个人口众多的重要城市。
174	In 1222, a certain	1222年,某个人
175	Restoro completed there the first scientific treatise in Italian written not as a translation	Restoro在那里完成了第一部不是作为译本的意大利文科学论文
176	from Latin, but as an original work, and the most interesting thing about it is that the author was	从拉丁语,但作为一个原创作品, 最有趣的是,作者是
177	not a scholar, but a local artist.	不是学者而是本地艺术家
178	We even have a painting, a surviving painting, that is signed by this	我们甚至有一幅画, 幸存下来的画, 由这个签名
179	Restoro together with another local artist.	雷斯托罗和另一位当地艺术家一起.
180	It is important to understand that at the time artists	必须明白,当时艺术家
181	did not belong to the learned elite, but to the working class.	不属于有学问的精英,而是属于工人阶级.
182	They were simply classmen who learned	他们只是班上的人学会了
183	their job in the workshops, and their apprenticeship focused on minor skills and included little to no	他们的学徒工作集中在次要技能上,包括很少或没有。
184	formal education.	正规教育。
185	The normal did not learn Latin.	正常人没有学拉丁语.
186	If they did it, maybe they acquired some reading	如果他们这样做, 也许他们得到了一些阅读
187	skills, but normally they could not absolutely write in Latin.	技能,但通常他们不能绝对用拉丁文写。
188	They were not conversant in the language	他们不通晓语言
189	of the church and of the universities and what was considered the language of culture, and yet	教会和大学, 以及什么被认为是文化语言,
190	this minor worker seems to be perfectly comfortable with an entirely secular approach to the study of	这个小工人似乎完全可以以完全世俗的方式研究
191	nature and written error of undetermined age.	未确定年龄的自然和书面错误。
192	As he writes in his book, the causes of natural phenomena	他在他的书里写道自然现象的原因
193	should be assigned not by way of miracles, that is direct intervention by God in the world,	不应以迹象而加以分配,那是真主对全世界的直接干涉。
194	which are above reason, but only by way of reason and similitudes and reasonable examples	理由之上,但只能通过理性、模拟和合理的例子
195	and rational examples.	和理性的例子。
196	Now, this does not mean that he was not religious.	这并不意味着他不虔诚
197	He just thought that, well, religion is religion and science is science.	他只是觉得宗教就是宗教科学就是科学
198	His words makes it clear	他说得很清楚
199	that he has no need to interpret the book of Genesis in a literal way when it comes to interpreting	在解释《创世记》的时候他不必用字面上的方式解释
200	the natural world.	自然界的风云
201	And indeed, Restoro's earth is a body of indefinite age characterized by cyclical	事实上,雷斯托罗的大地是一个以周期性为特征的无限年龄的身体
202	flaws and droughts that sweep away from time to time entire civilizations and alter the	各种缺陷和干旱不时地横扫整个文明,并改变
203	landscape.	景观。
204	So, for example, this periodical great conditions of the sea are the reason why	因此,比如说,这个海洋的定期大环境是为什么
205	we can find fossils of marine creatures in that.	我们可以在那找到海洋生物的化石
206	The reference to these flaws of the sea is	提到海洋的这些缺陷是:
207	especially enlightening because the book of Genesis speaks indeed of such an event.	特别是启蒙因为创世纪之书确实提到了这样的事件
208	It talks of	它谈论
209	a massive universal geological event, the universal flood that at a certain point submerged	一个巨大的世界性地质事件, 全球性的洪水在某一点下沉
210	the whole of the earth to punish humankind for his sins.	以惩罚人类的罪孽
211	According to the story, God found	根据故事,上帝发现
212	only a just man, Noah, who was instructed to build a vessel where he could save his family	只有一个正义的人,诺亚他奉命建造一个能拯救家人的船
213	and a couple of every species of animals.	和每类动物中的几个
214	How does Restoro deal with this story?	瑞斯特罗是怎么处理这个故事的?
215	We specifically	我们特别
216	discuss a great innovation that submerged the whole of the earth that sounds quite a big deal	讨论一个伟大的创新淹没了整个地球这听起来相当重要
217	from a geological point of view.	从地质学的角度来说
218	Well, to him, this flood described in the Bible was simply	对他来说,圣经中描述的洪水只是
219	the latest occurrence of the largest and most devastating kind of natural floods that periodically	最近发生的最大规模和最具破坏性的自然洪灾
220	scourge the earth.	给地球带来灾难
221	God also used that particular instance to punish humankind, but the phenomenon	上帝也利用这个特殊的例子来惩罚人类,但这个现象
222	itself is natural.	它本身是自然的。
223	It is caused by astrological forces.	它是由占星力引起的.
224	When the planets align in a certain	当行星在某一个特定的地方排列时,
225	constellation, you could have this kind of inundations.	星座,你可以有这种淹没。
226	To us now, astrology is kind of a	对我们来说,占星学是一种
227	seed of science, especially in the West.	科学的种子,特别是在西方。
228	It's still very popular in other parts of the world,	它仍然在世界其他地方很受欢迎,
229	but at the time, it was really like gravity in later cosmologies.	但是在当时,它真的像引力在后来的宇宙学。
230	It was the force that kept	是部队留下的
231	together the Earth, and there was a lot of sophisticated science behind astrology.	和地球一起, 有很多复杂的科学背后的占星学。
232	And as Restoro remarks, even those parts of the Earth where a great flood is going to happen,	正如雷斯特罗所言即使地球那些将发生大洪水的地方
233	there will be some wise men who knows well the science of the stars who he provided for himself	将会有一些聪明人他非常了解恒星的科学
234	and his family, like that wise man Noah reportedly did.	和他的家人, 就像那个贤者诺亚,据报道。
235	The scholars who tried to frame this work	试图陷害这个作品的学者
236	within the conventional narrative of the history of the time could only conclude that, I mean,	在对当时历史的传统叙述中,只能得出这样的结论:
237	this should not have existed at the time, especially written by a manual worker	这在当时不应该存在,尤其是由体力劳动者写的
238	in plain Italian, the vernacular of the time.	意大利语,是当时的方言。
239	And so they concluded that this must have been	所以他们得出结论说这一定是
240	a highly unusual and Norfolk's book, almost borderline heretical.	一本非常不寻常的和诺福克的书, 几乎边缘异端。
241	On the contrary,	相反,
242	once it is placed in the context of the scientific literature of the time, and you bother to read	一旦它被放在当时的科学文献的背景中, 你就会费心阅读
243	what was written at the same time on the topic, this approach appears to be absolutely normal.	同时就这个专题所写的东西,这个方法似乎完全正常。
244	And, in fact, Restoro's work was copied, translated, and even printed in illustrated	事实上,雷斯特罗的作品被复制,翻译,甚至用图画印刷
245	editions for about 250 years without any problem.	大约250年的版本没有任何问题。
246	The fundamental principle was that natural	基本原则是:
247	phenomena should be explained through observation and reason alone, that the Earth is a body of	应当仅通过观察和理性来解释现象,即地球是一个由地球构成的天体。
248	undetermined and possibly very great age, periodically devastated by exterminating floods,	年代不明,可能非常大定期受到洪水的破坏
249	and that the surface of the Earth is the product of erosive forces over a long period of time,	地球表面是侵蚀力的产物
250	seems to have been ubiquitous and entirely unproblematic.	似乎无处不在,完全没有问题。
251	Literally, a scientific test	从字面上讲,科学测试
252	of the time described the surface of the Earth as the scenery of ruins and old age,	当时,地球表面被描述为废墟和老年的风景,
253	where mountain peaks, like this one that you see these Quattrocento paintings, made their last	山峰的山峰,就像你看到的这幅 Quattrocento的画, 做了他们最后的
254	stand against erosion, while the softer rocks surrounding them have already been washed out of	虽然周围较柔软的岩石已被冲出
255	sea, a world that seemed like for its next renovating flood.	海洋,这个世界似乎像它的下一次修复洪水。
256	What I call in another article	我在另一篇文章里所说的
257	the viewings of the Earth were ubiquitous in Renaissance pictorial landscapes, both in	在文艺复兴时期的图片景观中, 地球的景色无处不在。
258	Northern Europe and in Italy, but especially in Italy, like this one that was painted in 1454	北欧和意大利, 特别是在意大利, 像这个画在1454年
259	by Andrea Mantegna, one of the masters of the Italian Renaissance.	由意大利文艺复兴大师之一的安德里亚·曼特尼亚(Andrea Mantegna)执导.
260	And these views of the Earth	地球的这些观点
261	were usually painted together with the architectural viewings here that have long	通常和这里的建筑景观一起画
262	attracted the interest of art historians.	吸引了艺术史学家的兴趣.
263	Now, those rocky landscapes represented idealized forms.	这些岩石般的景观代表了理想化的形式。
264	Historians of geology with a geological background have tried to find the exact	有地质背景的地质史学家曾试图找到精确的
265	equivalent of these rocks.	相当于这些岩石。
266	They are not photographs.	这不是照片
267	These are not their aim.	这些不是他们的目标。
268	However,	不过,
269	they did embed the common understanding of the Earth as an old decaying body	他们把地球作为一个老腐烂体的共识嵌入了其中
270	scarred by the passage of time.	时间流逝使我感到伤痕累累
271	Again, this is one painting, one example among hundreds	再说一遍,这是一幅画,是上百幅画中的一个例子
272	that I could bring here.	我可以带到这里来。
273	And this brings us to exhibit B, namely the writings of another artist	这让我们来展示B, 即另一个艺术家的作品
274	that lived about two centuries after restored, but managed to become way more famous.	恢复了大约两个世纪后却更出名了
275	He is the	他就是那个
276	author of Mona Lisa, but also a bold engineer and the author of outstanding geological and	莫娜·丽莎的作者,但也是一位大胆的工程师和杰出的地质学家。
277	paleontological observations that you can still read in his notebooks.	你仍然可以在他的笔记本上读到的古生物学观察.
278	In these writings, he	在这些文章中,他
279	resolute denies that the fossils of sea creatures found in land that he studied accurately were	坚决否认在他准确研究的陆地上发现的海洋生物化石
280	brought there by the biblical flood.	被圣经般的洪水带到那里
281	And of course, it never crossed his mind that the Earth would	当然,他从未想过地球会
282	only be a few thousand years old.	只有几千岁
283	There's no hint in his writings that he ever entertained	他的著作中没有任何暗示他曾经娱乐
284	this possibility.	这种可能性。
285	It was just something that he didn't think of.	只是他没想过的事
286	It was very common indeed	这的确很常见
287	in his time to assume that the age of the Earth was immense and that it could accommodate even	他当时认为地球的时代是巨大的,可以容纳甚至
288	as low as geological revolutions.	和地质革命一样低
289	And here we see some of the examples from the most important of	在这里,我们看到一些例子从最重要的
290	his geological notebooks, because Lester on the upper left side corner, you can see what is a	他的地质笔记本,因为莱斯特在左上角,你可以看到什么是
291	section, hypothetical section of the Earth and below a hill, a cutoff, so let's just speak of a	部分,假设的地球部分和山下,一个截断,所以让我们只说一个
292	hill with its layer straight up.	山丘的地层直上
293	Leonardo never discussed the age of the Earth or the duration	莱昂纳多从未讨论过地球的年龄和持续时间
294	of its geological cycles, not because he did not dare to, as it is often written, but because it	并不是因为他不敢, 因为它经常写, 而是因为它
295	was not an issue at all.	根本不是一个问题。
296	His deluge studies, some drawings that he made late in his life,	他的学问,他晚年画的一些画,
297	are not intended to represent the flood of Genesis, but just one of the periodic floods that	并不是要代表创世纪的洪水而是周期性的洪水之一
298	submerged a part of the Earth, or perhaps the Apollo beat.	或可能是阿波罗之击
299	By the time Leonardo passed away in	当莱昂纳多去世的时候
300	1519, Western Europe was quickly developing the technology of the printing press.	1519年,西欧迅速发展印刷机技术.
301	The price of	价格
302	printing, so by 1540 more or less, we see the first examples of what we would call	因此,到1540年,我们可以看到我们称之为
303	popular science.	大众学.
304	Still not the popular science as we intend as today, but we can see something	仍然不是像今天这样流行的科学但我们可以看到一些东西
305	very similar.	非常类似
306	And here comes exhibit C, a small book on meteorology printed in Venice in the year	这里有展览C, 一本关于气象学的小书出版于威尼斯当年
307	1542.	1542 (英语).
308	I went to Venice because at the time it was probably the most important printing center in	我去了威尼斯因为当时它可能是最重要的印刷中心
309	the world, and a lot of scientific books, especially in vernacular, were printed there.	以及许多科学书籍,特别是方言著作, 都印在那里。
310	Actually this book was not printed by a scientist or nor by an artist.	实际上这本书不是由科学家或艺术家印刷的.
311	It was written by an author	作者写的
312	who made a living trying to serve the public created by the technology of the printing press.	他们靠印刷机技术为大众服务为生
313	He basically wrote on any subject that could set a general audience.	他基本上写了任何可以设置一般观众的主题.
314	In the same year he wrote 500	同年他写了500
315	books on different subjects.	不同主题的书籍。
316	This meteorology is basically an introduction to the discipline	这个气象学基本上是学科的介绍
317	in plain Italian that was probably meant for craftsmen, women, other readers who did not	在普通的意大利语, 可能指工匠,妇女,其他读者谁没有
318	know Latin and could not afford expensive books.	懂拉丁语买不起昂贵的书
319	Now at the time, meteorology was a larger field	当时,气象学是一个更大的领域
320	than today as it included not only atmospheric phenomena, but also geology or mineralogy that	因为它不仅包括大气现象,还包括地质或矿物学
321	did not exist at the time as independent disciplines, not yet.	当时还没有作为独立的学科存在,还没有.
322	So a small chapter in	这么小的一章
323	this book is dedicated to the generation of hills and mountains.	这本书致力于山丘和山丘的生成.
324	And here is a page of this book,	这是这本书的一页
325	page 33.	页33。
326	We have three or four pages dedicated to this topic.	我们有三、四页专门讨论这一主题。
327	In these pages the author discusses	作者在这些页面中讨论了
328	the geological cycles of the earth, that the ocean and dry land have not always been where they are	地球的地质循环海洋和干地并非始终如此
329	now, and that the natural forces that could give you origin to the mountains are extremely slow.	现在,自然的力量可能给你的起源在山上极其缓慢。
330	So as he says, it is true that this will happen in, so as to speak, an almost infinite	所以,正如他所说,这是真的, 这将发生在,所以说,几乎无限
331	length of time.	时间长度。
332	But this is not a problem because the earth can be considered eternal for every	但这不是个问题因为地球可以被认为是永恒的
333	practical and scientific purpose.	实用和科学目的。
334	Religion, Norse blood or the book of Genesis are never mentioned	宗教、诺斯血统或创世记从未提及
335	in the course of this book.	在这本书的过程中。
336	They have absolutely no role in the history of the earth as the author imagines it.	他们绝对没有像作者想象的那样在地球历史上扮演的角色.
337	Now one could argue that Leonardo's geological writings are personal notes not intended for	现在人们可以认为,莱昂纳多的地质著作是个人笔记,并非意在
338	publication, at least not in that form, and that Aristotle's book was composed before the	亚里士多德的书是在那之前编的
339	invention of the printing press when every book was still manuscript and unique.	在每本书仍然是手稿和独一无二的时候发明了印刷机
340	So	这么说
341	its exploration must have been somewhat limited, but this meteorology was intended for the largest	它的探索一定有些有限,但这一气象学是用于最大的
342	possible dissemination.	可能的传播。
343	What the author did was simply to take a compendium for university students	提交人所做的只是为大学生编写一本简编
344	and further simplify it for a general audience, but without changing at all its overall approach.	并为广大观众进一步简化,但不改变其总体做法。
345	This was simply the scientific common sense of the time.	这仅仅是当时的科学常识。
346	This is why books like this have long been	这就是为什么这样的书已经很久
347	ignored by historians of science, because it is not the kind of books where you can expect to	被科学史学家忽视了, 因为这不是你期望的书
348	find scientific breakthroughs, right?	找到科学突破对吧?
349	Just the scientific common sense of the time.	只是当时的科学常识
350	The fact is,	事实上,
351	scientific common sense of the time can be different from what he thought it was,	时间的科学常识可能不同于他的想法,
352	and this is why this kind of literature can be extremely important.	这就是为什么这种文学可以极其重要。
353	Now, by and large,	现在,总的来说,
354	those theories were not perceived as a threat by the millions of authors.	这些理论没有被数百万作者视为威胁。
355	This almost happened.	这几乎发生了。
356	The important thing was to acknowledge that at a certain point, God did create the universe,	重要的是承认在某一时刻上帝创造了宇宙
357	or at least not to state explicitly the opposite.	或至少不要明确表示相反。
358	So when he writes that the earth is eternal,	所以当他写着地球是永恒的
359	which is what he states in those red squares that I drew, says eternity of the world,	他在我画的红方块上写着世界的永恒
360	eternity of the world, and so on.	世间永恒等.
361	The understanding is that he means, yeah, it is,	理解是,他的意思是,是的,这是,
362	we consider it eternal.	我们认为它是永恒的。
363	Of course, at a certain point, God created it, but we don't need to state	当然,在某一时刻,上帝创造了它, 但我们不需要说
364	when, and it is not important.	什么时候,这不重要。
365	Actually, the church never determined that six days of the creation	实际上,教会从来没有确定六天的创作
366	must be interpreted as six eternal days, or even as stages of the creation.	必须被解释为六天永恒,甚至作为创造阶段。
367	It was always	总是这样
368	possible to consider the Genesis account as a moral story, whose core teaching is that there	可能将创世纪记述视为道德故事,其核心教导是:
369	was a beginning, and there was a creator, and everything else, more or less, was negotiable.	是一个开始,有一个创造者, 其他的东西,或多或少,都是可以谈判的。
370	And then theories of an ancient earth were not used to attack religion, or the truth of the Bible	后来古代大地的理论并没有用来攻击宗教或者圣经的真理
371	as a God-given text.	作为上帝赐予的文字。
372	However, by the early 1700s, a couple of centuries later, this was no longer	然而,到1700年代初, 几个世纪后,这已经不再是
373	true.	没错
374	The first half of the 18th century, the early 1700s, so the beginning of the secularization	18世纪上半叶,1700年代初,所以开始世俗化
375	of the European culture.	欧洲文化
376	So, immensely influential philosophers, especially in France,	所以,有巨大影响力的哲学家,特别是在法国
377	laid down the foundation of the modern Western civilization, the foundation on which America	奠定了现代西方文明的基础,是美国的基础
378	is still built.	仍然被建造。
379	The Constitution, our framework, liberal framework, was laid down and written in	《宪法》、我们的框架、自由的框架是按以下规定制定的:
380	right in 1780s.	1780年代的电影
381	And what did it do was to advocate for religious tolerance, which is a big deal	它所做的是倡导宗教宽容这很重要
382	after centuries of religious wars that blooded Europe, the separation of church estate,	在几个世纪的宗教战争血淋淋的欧洲, 教会财产的分离,
383	and new political institutions that should be based on the consent of the government,	和应基于政府同意的新政治机构,
384	rather than on the God-given right of ruling to the kings, who received their power in theory	而不是在上帝赋予国王的统治权上他们从理论上获得了权力
385	from God, not from the people that they governed.	是从真主发出的,不是从他们所治的民众发出的。
386	In doing so, they weaponized	这样一来,他们就武器化了
387	earth history into a tool of cultural wars and political propaganda, aimed to represent Christianity	地球历史成为文化战争和政治宣传的工具,旨在代表基督教
388	as a force that had historically stifled humankind's progress.	作为历史上扼杀人类进步的力量.
389	If you have to undermine the political	如果你必须破坏政治
390	power of the kings coming from the God of the Bible, you have, first of all, to undermine the	国王的力量来自圣经的神, 你,首先,破坏
391	Bible as a true story given by God.	圣经是上帝给的真实故事
392	其中,法国工程师尼古拉·安托万·库兰切特(Nicolas Antoine Coulanchet).
393	did not deny the reality of an exterminating deluge in historical times, but he divested it	并没有否认历史时代的灭绝大饥荒的现实,但他却放弃了它.
394	of any religious meaning.	任何宗教意义。
395	On the contrary, in his reconstruction, political institutions and	相反,在他的重建中,政治机构和
396	religion itself rose from the traumatic experience of the flood, a totally natural event,	宗教本身从洪水的创伤经历中崛起, 这是一次完全自然的事件,
397	and the shock survivors tried to make sense, in supernatural terms, of the unconceivable catastrophe	从超自然角度来说,震撼幸存者试图让无法想象的灾难变得合理
398	that befell them.	给他们带来痛苦
399	So Genesis was a simple one of various entirely human documents of the ancient	创世纪是古代各种人类文献的简单之一
400	catastrophe, and it was important at the time that Europeans were receiving notions of other accounts	那时欧洲人接受其他账户的概念很重要
401	of the world and of the baptizing flood, the Chinese chronicles, Indian history of the earth,	世界和受洗洪水,中国编年史,印度历史
402	or Aztec stories.	或阿兹特克的故事。
403	They tell to people like Coulanchet that Genesis's account is not unique,	他们告诉库兰切特这样的人创世纪的账户不是独一无二的
404	it's just one of many human stories of that geological event.	这只是人类关于地质事件的故事之一
405	Every government since the flood	洪水之后的每个政府
406	had been just a form of theocracy, enabled by the religious sentiment issued from these	曾经只是一种专制形式, 由宗教情绪所促成
407	incomprehensible natural disasters.	无法理解的自然灾害。
408	By making humans morally responsible for the flood, something	让人类对洪水负道德责任
409	happens because of their sins, and for the flawed political organism that oppressed them,	因为他们的罪孽而发生, 而那些有缺陷的政治组织压迫他们,
410	the church perpetuated their subjugation.	教会将他们的臣服永久化。
411	A close associate of Coulanchet, Baron	库兰切特的亲密同伙,男爵
412	de Barca, wrote most of the entries on geology and mineralogy in the famous Encyclopédie,	在著名的百科全书中写了大部分关于地质学和矿物学的条目
413	the manifesto of the French enlightenment that began to be published starting from 1751.	从1751年开始开始出版的法国启蒙宣言.
414	In the entry of fossils that was published in 1757, de Barca laid out what is, to my knowledge,	在1757年公布的化石条目中, 巴尔卡描述了,据我所知,
415	the first clear enunciation of what was to become the conventional history of the time.	第一次明确放弃了成为当时传统历史的内容。
416	First of all, in news reconstruction, the ancient, and he's speaking of Greeks and Romans in this	首先,在新闻重建,古代, 他谈论希腊人和罗马人在这
417	case, unanimously regarded the earth as an immensely old, if not eternal, and the fossils were the	将地球视为古老的,即使不是永恒的, 化石就是
418	references of its past revolutions.	提及其过去的革命。
419	However, their correct insights were suppressed by what	然而,他们的正确见解被以下因素压制:
420	it called the Mosaic Theocracy, that is Christianity, that imposed the idea of a recent creation	它称之为摩赛克神权,即基督教, 强制推行了近代人的思想
421	to the point that alternatives became inconceivable.	以至于其他选择变得不可思议。
422	When around 1500 some began to	当1500年左右,一些开始
423	recognize that marine fossils must be the remains of actual fish and mollusks, their minds were so	他们意识到海洋化石必须是真正的鱼类和软体动物的遗骸, 他们的思想是如此
424	dominated by biblical literalism that they could only think of the biblical flood, again within the	他们只能想到圣经里的洪水,
425	context of a young earth.	年轻地球的背景
426	Only in the course of the previous decades did some philosophers begin	直到前几十年,一些哲学家才开始
427	to shape the chains imposed on their minds, and guided by observation and reason, they rapidly	在观察和理性指引下,他们迅速
428	discovered the evident truth of the great antiquity of the earth, long hidden under the weight of	发现地球古代的明显真相久而久之
429	theocratic oppression.	理论压迫。
430	Is this a correct reconstruction of the history of the earth sciences	这是对地球科学历史的正确重建吗?
431	and of the time in medieval and early modern Europe?	在中世纪和早期的现代欧洲?
432	Absolutely not, it is a trust, but by the	绝对不是,这是信任,但是...
433	year 800, more or less, it had become common sense.	大约800年,它已经成为常识。
434	So the 18th century in mine construction	所以18世纪的矿山建设
435	did not discover the time and the geological antiquity of the earth.	没有发现地球的时间和地质古迹。
436	What the 18th century did	18世纪所做的
437	was to bury the complex, sophisticated, and nuanced history of medieval and early modern	将中世纪和早期现代的复杂、复杂和细微的历史
438	earth sciences, and on its grave, it erected the simplistic notion of a pre-1700 Europe that	地球科学及其坟墓上,它树立了 1700年前欧洲的简单概念
439	uniformly rejected an ancient earth, as opposed to a modern world ready to embrace it.	一致拒绝一个古老的地球,而不是一个准备拥抱它的现代世界。
440	And as I said,	如我所说,
441	by the year 1800, apparently this narrative was firmly established.	到1800年,这种叙述显然已经确立。
442	So in 1830, the great geologist	所以在1830年,伟大的地质学家
443	Charles Lyell wrote in the introduction to his super influential principles of geology that it had	查尔斯·莱尔(Charles Lyell)在对地质学的超有影响力原则的介绍中写道:
444	been the consistent belief of the Christian world that the origin of this planet was not more remote	基督教世界一直相信这个星球的起源并不遥远
445	than a few thousand years, that since the creation, the deluge was the only catastrophe by which	几千年来,自创世以来, 洪水是唯一的灾难,
446	considerable change had been wrought on the earth's surface.	地球表面发生了相当大的变化。
447	Now it is perhaps sobering	现在或许是清醒的
448	that the historically flawed narrative went basically unchallenged for more than 250 years,	历史上有缺陷的叙事基本上没有受到质疑 250多年,
449	and even became a cornerstone of the narrative on the construction of modern Western civilization	甚至成为关于现代西方文明建设的叙事的基石
450	and worldview.	和世界观。
451	And this happened in spite of the fact that much of the evidence I used in my latest	尽管我最近用了很多证据
452	book has been in plain sight, and it has often been encountered by historians of science.	书在目光中一直清晰可见,科学史学家也经常遇到.
453	But it	不过
454	has been swept away under the rug in a way, in a certain way.	从某种意义上说,在地毯下被扫走。
455	And when they encounter the Leonardo's	当他们遇到莱昂纳多时
456	or other authors with similar views, they just decided that there were geniuses ahead of this time	或其他有类似观点的作者, 他们只是决定在此之前有天才
457	or exceptions that do not change really the overall picture.	或没有真正改变总体情况的例外情况。
458	I think that this story I	我觉得这个故事我
459	uncovered in this book constantly reminds of how evidence that questions are cultural assumptions	这本书不断提醒人们问题是如何成为文化假设的证据
460	should never be explained away, but on the contrary properly investigated, because this is	绝不应被解释,相反,应进行适当调查,因为
461	when the moment when we discover something new.	当我们发现新的事物的时候
462	And it totally speaks, I believe,	它完全说,我相信,
463	of the dangers issuing from the politicization of history and all scientific research, which	历史和所有科学研究的政治化引起的危险,
464	inevitably today, as it did in the 1700s, we entail oversimplifications and polarizations,	今天,正如1700年代那样,我们不可避免地需要过度简化和两极分化,
465	and we end up hiding the richness and complexity of past history.	最后我们隐藏了历史的丰富性和复杂性。
466	And finally, I think that this	最后,我觉得
467	highlights the importance of exploring the distant roots of the modern world.	强调探索现代世界遥远根源的重要性。
468	In today's America,	在今天的美国,
469	historians are often asked to contribute to pressing social and cultural problems,	历史学家经常被要求为紧迫的社会和文化问题做出贡献,
470	but this should not mean, in my opinion, that one should always focus on what appears to be	但是,我认为,这不应意味着,人们应当始终关注看来是
471	immediately relevant.	直接相关。
472	It was an obscure manuscript or a long forgotten book produced hundreds of	这是一本模糊的手稿或者一本被遗忘很久的书产生了数百本
473	years ago in a different continent that revealed to me that the most basic assumptions of the	几年前,在一个不同的大陆上, 向我揭示了
474	controversy on creationism were completely wrong, and I could not have discovered it	关于创造主义的争论是完全错误的,我不可能发现
475	as in a different way by just focusing on modern America.	以不同的方式专注于现代美国
476	And so in historical,	所以在历史上,
477	like in basic scientific research, you can never know what is going to be relevant.	就像基础科学研究一样,你永远不知道什么是相关的。
478	Thank you for your attention.	谢谢你的注意。
479	Great, thank you so much.	太好了,非常感谢。
480	So we can move into a time of Q&A,	这样我们就可以进入QQA时代,
481	so if anybody has any questions that they would like to ask, please feel free to either type it	所以,如果有人有任何问题他们想问, 请随意输入
482	out in the chat box, or you can use the raise hand function on the bottom of your screen,	在聊天框中,或者您可以用屏幕底部的提升手功能,
483	and we can actually call on you to interact directly with the speaker today.	我们实际上可以呼吁你今天直接与发言者互动。
484	So if anybody	所以,如果有人
485	has any questions, please feel free to ask.	有问题请随便问
486	And I know it takes people a little while to warm up	我知道要花点时间才能暖和
487	here, so maybe I'll get started with the first question and then we can go from there.	在这里,所以也许我会开始第一个问题然后我们可以从那里去。
488	So thank you so much for showing us all the different sources that, as you say, aren't really	所以,非常感谢你给我们展示所有不同的来源, 正如你说,不是真的
489	drawn upon, because historically people are sort of focused on only sort of the historical elite,	因为历史上人们只关注历史精英
490	and the religious elite.	宗教精英们
491	I was curious what sort of this narrative of the middle ages or the	我很好奇中世纪的这种叙事
492	medieval year of being sort of so backwards and sort of nothing happened, right?	中世纪的年有点倒退有点什么也没有发生,对不对?
493	I think even	我觉得甚至
494	in some of your quotes, it sort of mentions that sort of when does this conception that we	在你的一些引文中, 它有点提到这种什么时候做这个概念,我们
495	now have of like medieval Europe and sort of the middle ages and being the dark ages,	现在有像中世纪的欧洲和某种中世纪和黑暗的时代,
496	how does that come sort of this idea come into play?	这个想法怎么会起作用?
497	And sort of when does that idea develop,	这种想法是什么时候形成的?
498	you know, because clearly, you know, if you're living in those times, you don't think, oh,	你知道,因为很明显,你知道, 如果你生活在那些时代, 你不认为,哦,
499	I must be in the dark ages.	我一定是在黑暗时代。
500	So how does that concept sort of develop over time?	那么这个概念是怎样逐渐发展起来的呢?
501	And sort of to what ends was it developed?	发展到什么目的?
502	Yeah, it really starts here in the early 1700s.	是啊,它真的从这里开始在1700年代初。
503	So around 1700, there is no such idea around.	所以在1700年左右,周围没有这样的想法.
504	So we have, I started focusing on the 18th century	所以我们开始关注18世纪
505	as the timeframe that when this narrative must have a reason, because I had these two	作为时间框架当这个叙述必须有一个理由, 因为我有这两个
506	questionable data points.	数据点有问题
507	In 1700, no one thought that there was, that the antiquity of the earth	1700年,没有人认为有, 地球的古老
508	was just being discovered there.	刚刚在那里被发现。
509	Okay, they always, they all knew that there was this old tradition	好吧,他们总是, 他们都知道有这种旧的传统
510	and there existed this chronological tradition in Jewish, Arab, and even Christian	犹太人、阿拉伯人、甚至基督徒都有这种时间顺序的传统
511	and even Christian civilizations where he tried to figure out the exact time of the creation	甚至是基督教文明他试图找出创造的时间
512	that he assumed that those days might have been actually days.	他假设那些日子可能其实是几天
513	And so he said, for example, that	所以他说,例如,
514	the world was created on March 25th in the year 404 BCE, probably at 9 a.m. And this tradition	世界创建于404BCE年的3月25日,大概是上午9点. 这个传统
515	absolutely existed and was very important.	绝对存在,而且非常重要。
516	And everyone and lots of people working to it,	每个人和很多人都为此而努力
517	Isaac Newton, for example, wrote a book on chronology.	例如艾萨克·牛顿(英语:Isaac Newton)写了一本关于编年史的著作.
518	His latest posthumous book that was	他最近出版的书
519	published after his death in 1728 was a book on chronology, not on physics or mathematics.	1728年他死后出版的书是一本关于编年史的书,而不是关于物理或数学的.
520	But this existed alongside other different traditions.	但这一点与其他不同传统并存。
521	One important thing that I didn't	一件很重要的事我没有
522	mention here, but is actually pretty important, and I deal with it in my book, is that in the	上面提到,但实际上相当重要, 我在我的书中处理它,是
523	1600s there was an increasing use of the genesis as a source in earth history.	1600年代在地球历史上越来越多地将起源作为来源.
524	And so there was	所以说
525	started this idea that maybe you can find actual scientific evidence for this universal flood that	开始这个想法,也许你可以找到真实的科学证据对于这个普遍洪水
526	happened in historical time.	发生在历史时期。
527	And if you do, then you don't need any longer an earth because this	如果你这样做,那么你不需要更多的地球,因为这个
528	would explain perhaps the sequence of strata and the origin of fossils.	或许可以解释层层的顺序和化石的起源。
529	And the first of these	而第一个
530	deluvialists, it is how they were called in 20th century America, it was called the flood geology,	冲积论者,这就是20世纪美国所谓的洪水地质
531	but it really started in the late 1600s.	但从1600年代后期开始
532	And the first of these deluvialists was actually	这些冲积层分子中的第一位其实是
533	one of the fathers of modern geology, the father of, who was considered the father of stratigraphy,	现代地质学的始祖之一, 其父,被认为是斯特拉蒂亚特的始祖,
534	Niels Stensen, who lived, who published his works in the late 1600s.	生活着的尼尔斯·斯滕森(Niels Stensen)在1600年代后期出版了他的作品.
535	And as a	而作为一个
536	communist believer, he thought that his examination of earth's strata, especially,	共产主义信仰者,他认为他的考核地球的层,特别是,
537	actually did confirm the truth of the Bible.	其实是肯定了圣经的真实性
538	And so in the late 1600s, there was this movement	所以在1600年代后期发生了这样的运动
539	that was new at the time.	这在当时是新的。
540	That doesn't come from the Middle Ages.	这不是中世纪的事
541	It is relatively recent.	这是相对较近的。
542	So to confirm revelation to the use of scientific evidence.	从而确认科学证据的运用的启示.
543	And this is how stratigraphy was born.	斯特拉蒂法就是这样诞生的。
544	Really, there are these documents where, for example, geologists visit the pits of their	确实,有这些文件,比如地质学家访问他们的坑
545	hometown with in their hands the chronicles of the city.	乡里有城市的编年史
546	And they begin to date strata using them.	他们开始与使用它们的阶层约会。
547	Oh, so for example, if you take someone who lived in northern Italy, at a certain point,	举个例子,如果你带一个人住在意大利北部, 在某个时候,
548	he found the strata with burned wood and so on.	他发现了有烧焦的木头之类的木头
549	Oh, this must be when the city was	哦,这一定是当城市是
550	burned by barbarians when the Roman Empire fell.	罗马帝国沦陷时被蛮族焚毁.
551	Also, this must be around the year 400,	而且,这一定是大约 400年,
552	and so on.	诸如来.
553	And at a certain point, they end up finding a big layer of limestone, that is a stone	在某些时候,他们最后会找到一层巨大的石灰岩,即一块石头
554	that deposits under water.	沉积在水中
555	And he said, oh, you know what, this big layer coincides with the time	他说,哦,你知道的, 这个大层与时间巧合
556	when the Great Flood could have happened.	当大洪水可能发生。
557	And so there's all this movement that tried to hook,	因此,所有的运动试图钩住,
558	so to speak, the truth of the relation to geological evidence.	因此,可以说,与地质证据关系的真实性。
559	But it was really dangerous.	但它真的很危险。
560	And many at the time, many believers knew that because they argued that if you cannot find	当时有许多信士,确已知道,因为他们争论说:如果你找不到,
561	geological evidence, or if this geological evidence proves to be inconsistent or untrue, then	地质证据,或如果地质证据证明不一致或不真实,
562	the falsity of this science could entail and could bring with it the falsity of the revelation.	这种科学的虚假性可能带来并带来启示的虚假性。
563	But because anchoring is not faith, not somebody believing the faith, but because	但因为锚定不是信仰也不是相信信仰的人而是因为
564	you have this evidence.	你有这个证据
565	And this is what these philosophers like Boulanger began to exploit.	这就是这些哲学家如布朗格开始利用的.
566	This was his weak point.	这是他的弱点。
567	And he said, if you can tear down this construction, that science	他说,如果你能摧毁这个建筑, 那个科学
568	actually confirms the Bible and the account of Genesis, then you can tear down Genesis with it.	实际证实了圣经和创世纪的叙述,然后你可以用它拆掉创世纪.
569	But there is another element that was missing.	但还有另一个因素缺失。
570	And this element was a history of Western	这个元素是西方历史
571	civilization in general, and of deep time in particular, that presents the centuries dominated	整个文明,特别是深刻时期的文明呈现着几个世纪的统治
572	by the church, by the views thinking as the dark ages where no real progress was made.	被教会认为是黑暗的时代没有取得真正的进展
573	And they use this, they turn this delineation, not as something recent, that had been around	他们使用这个,他们改变这个界限, 不是作为最近的东西, 一直围绕着
574	only for a few decades, but as the normal approach of Christianity to our history,	但作为基督教对我们历史的正常方式
575	which was not.	事实并非如此。
576	It was not in any way.	绝对不是
577	It was pretty recent.	这是相当近的。
578	And they constructed this narrative.	他们构建了这个故事。
579	And there is so not a lot of sheer deception, I think.	我想没有太多纯粹的欺骗
580	It is not as simple.	事情没那么简单。
581	What happened is	发生了什么事
582	they were fighting the fight.	他们打斗。
583	They were fighting for tolerance.	他们为宽容而战。
584	They were fighting for	他们为
585	a state based on the rule of law instead of absolute power, or the values that Western	以法治而不是绝对权力为基础的国家,或西方国家的价值观
586	civilization still cherishes of this most of it.	文明仍然珍视着这些
587	And so they started to use the elements of the	于是他们开始使用
588	past that they knew and to rearrange them in a way that made sense to them in order to prove what	过去他们知道,并以一种对他们有意义的方式重新安排他们,以便证明什么
589	they believed to be true.	他们相信是真的
590	That is that the church had been a hindrance to the development of human	也就是教堂是人类发展的障碍
591	civilization and science.	文明与科学。
592	And so this narrative was developed.	于是这个叙事被发展出来.
593	And it was a general narrative	并是一个总的叙述
594	that developed at the time, and that has remained deeply entrenched in Western culture.	这在西方文化中仍然根深蒂固。
595	And what I	还有我
596	presented here is, so to speak, the particular case that had to do with health history.	这里介绍的就是与健康史有关的特殊情况。
597	But I	不过
598	think I am showing that health history was actually essential to the elaboration of this	我认为,我显示,健康史对阐述这一点实际上至关重要。
599	narrative, which has not been re-appreciated, I think, until now.	我认为,直到现在才重新认识到这一点。
600	And it started right there.	它从那里开始。
601	And even though, together with other nonsense, honestly, like in the Middle Ages, it was believed	虽然,与其他的废话,诚实, 像在中世纪,人们相信
602	that the earth was flat.	大地是平坦的,
603	That's nonsense.	胡说八道
604	That's absolute nonsense.	胡说八道
605	You just go to the	你只是去一个
606	Banachy Library here at Yale, you pull out some scientific manuscript of the Middle Ages, you open	在耶鲁的Banachy图书馆你拿出一些中世纪的科学手稿你打开
607	it, and you see a perfectly circular earth.	它,你可以看到一个完全圆形的地球。
608	A perfectly spherical earth.	一个完美的球状地球。
609	This was discovered in	发现于
610	one basic text that we studied at the university in the Middle Ages on everyone in Europe,	中世纪我们在大学学习的关于欧洲每个人的基本文字,
611	there being Aristotle's Meteorology.	有亚里士多德的气象学。
612	And it starts, it was written around the year 350	开始是350年左右写的
613	before the current era, and it starts with the three canonical demonstrations that the earth	在现时代之前,它开始于地球的三条峡谷示威
614	sphere.	区域。
615	It was always there.	它总是在那里。
616	And of course, you could find some plot purpose in the Middle Ages.	当然,你可以在中世纪找到一些阴谋的目的。
617	What the heck?	什么鬼东西?
618	You can find them here in 2022.	你可以在2022年在这里找到他们.
619	And maybe with less justification.	可能更没有道理
620	And so you can find them in the Middle Ages.	这样你就可以在中世纪找到它们。
621	But they were never absolutely mainstream,	但他们从来没有绝对的主流,
622	that we as considered weirdos or ignorant people who had no idea of what was called at the time	我们被视为怪人或无知的人谁不知道什么叫当时
623	philosophy, what we call science.	哲学,我们称之为科学。
624	But these legends were put out in the 1800s basically	但是这些传说基本上在1800年代被公布
625	to reinforce this narrative.	强化这一叙述。
626	And they were widely accepted and still like 80% of my students when	他们被广泛接受仍然像80%的学生
627	I started class, once I ran a poll.	我开始上课,一旦我做了一个民意调查。
628	And I asked, do you think that in the Middle Ages, they thought	我问,你是否认为在中世纪,他们认为
629	that the earth was flat?	说大地是平的吗?
630	And 80% answered yes.	80%的人回答是的。
631	And these are the best of the American youth.	这些是美国青年中最好的。
632	Yeah, it's so interesting that there's been this like pervasiveness of these ideas.	是啊,这太有趣了, 曾经有这种像这些想法的普及。
633	So	这么说
634	let's see.	让我看看。
635	Oh, okay.	哦,还好。
636	That's a good question, I think.	这是一个很好的问题,我认为。
637	Patrick, Professor, why do you choose on the edge of	帕特里克,教授,你为什么选择在边缘
638	eternity as your title?	永远是你的头衔?
639	What does it mean?	这是什么意思?
640	Oh, that's a good question.	哦,这是一个很好的问题。
641	I explained it in the	我解释过了
642	book, of course, somehow.	书,当然,不知何故。
643	So I explained it on the edge of eternity because the common idea	所以我在永恒的边缘解释因为共同的想法
644	was that almost everyone accepted that the earth is very young.	几乎所有人都承认地球非常年轻
645	And the alternative would have been	而另一种选择是
646	what ancient Greek philosophers, especially Aristotle, was very important in Western culture	古希腊哲学家,尤其是亚里士多德, 在西方文化中是非常重要的
647	and even in Islamic culture.	甚至在伊斯兰文化中
648	In the Middle Ages and in the modern times, thought that the earth	在中世纪和现代,认为地球
649	actually is eternal.	其实是永恒的。
650	It was never created by God.	它从来没有由上帝创造。
651	It was only existing.	它只是存在的。
652	This was a theoretical view,	这是一个理论观点,
653	but it was nonetheless thought because there was a lot more freedom, intellectual freedom,	但人们还是认为自由思想自由
654	that we think.	我们认为。
655	But the assumption was that, of course, the earth is not eternal.	但假设是,当然,地球不是永恒的。
656	You can teach	你可以教书
657	it as Aristotle thought, but not really believe it.	就像亚里士多德所想的, 但不是真正相信它。
658	My book points to a third alternative that	我的书指出了第三种选择
659	actually existed, that is an earth that was created.	实际上,那是一个创造出来的地球。
660	So you're not heretical here,	所以你在这里不是异教徒
661	but it can be of any age.	但它可以是任何年龄。
662	It can be as old as you want.	能如是岁.
663	It can be an earth whose age is on the edge	它可能是一个地球年龄在边缘
664	of eternity.	永远的
665	And this is what, in theory, could mean by an author that wrote these kind of things	这在理论上可能是指作者写这些东西
666	and threw it to the people, really, to the masses without any problem.	并把它扔给人民,真的, 给群众没有任何问题。
667	He's writing here,	他写在这里,
668	oh, the world is eternal, the world is eternal.	哦,世界是永恒的,世界是永恒的。
669	In theory, what it means is that, of course,	在理论上,这意味着,当然,
670	the world was created, but we assume that it is eternal because we can't really see its beginning	这个世界是创造的, 但我们假设它是永恒的,因为我们不能真正看到它的开始
671	as old as it is.	犹如古今.
672	And so this is why I chose this title for my book to emphasize that it was this	所以我才选了这个名字来强调
673	alternative, that you could believe in extremely old earth, not on the earth of Genesis, and it was	你可以相信极古老的地球而不是创世纪的地球
674	as long as you remain on the edge of eternity without taking the fourth step.	只要你在永恒的边缘而不采取第四步。
675	Great.	不错
676	Somebody asked me a question directly that I can help ask.	有人直接问我一个问题我可以帮你问
677	Their question is sort of broadly	他们的问题有点泛泛
678	if the Crusades played a role at all into sort of the desire of the church to kind of step up	如果十字军在某种程度上扮演了某种角色教会想要挺身而出
679	this kind of different kind of thinking.	这种想法不同
680	But I guess we can expand that question a little bit	但我想我们可以把这个问题扩大一点
681	and sort of talk about, because you've mentioned the Islamic understanding of the world and then	并谈起, 因为你提到了伊斯兰对世界的理解,然后
682	the Jewish understanding of the world as well.	犹太人对世界的理解
683	So maybe we can sort of, obviously the book	所以,也许我们可以排序,很明显的书
684	and European society at that time was largely based on the Christian church, but sort of	那时的欧洲社会基本上以基督教会为基础但有点
685	were there other traditions and ideas that were sort of floating around already that was sort of	有没有其他传统和想法那种漂浮在周围已经是一种
686	already in play and what was the interaction of those different kind of thoughts?	这些不同想法的相互作用是什么?
687	Yeah, very	对,非常
688	interesting question.	有趣的问题。
689	Yes, and I discussed that in the book and you had to.	是的,我在书里讨论了这一点,你不得不。
690	So the Crusades had a	所以十字军有一个
691	role in the sense that they were part of a larger movement of expansion of Western Europe around	西欧的扩张运动的一部分
692	after the year 1000.	1000年之后,我们开始
693	And so they were part of the expansion, but expansion also entailed,	因此,他们是扩张的一部分, 但扩张也意味着,
694	for example, the rise of larger economic powers like Venice, who were probably at certain point	例如威尼斯等经济大国的崛起,它们可能在某些时候
695	became the most important commercial hub in Europe.	成为欧洲最重要的商业枢纽.
696	And what Venice did was to sell to the rest of	威尼斯所做的就是卖给其他人
697	Europe the spices and other Eastern goods that were imported in the Middle East through	欧洲中东进口的香料和其他东方商品
698	like the Arabs.	就像阿拉伯人一样
699	So basically the Arabs would buy in India spices that are brought from Indonesia,	所以基本上阿拉伯人会在印度买从印度尼西亚带来的香料
700	and then they brought them to Egypt or Syria, and then mission ships would ship them back to Europe	然后他们把他们带到埃及或叙利亚然后传教舰队把他们送回欧洲
701	where they were incredibly expensive and in very high demand.	他们非常昂贵需求很高
702	And by doing so, the rest of the	而通过这样做,其余的
703	military control of the Mediterranean from the Arabs that had controlled the Mediterranean for	对地中海的军事控制
704	a few centuries.	几个世纪。
705	And this larger movement was also a movement of cultural expansion.	而这个更大的运动也是文化扩张运动.
706	What happened is that these contacts made it possible for Western Europe to	发生的情况是,这些接触使得西欧有可能
707	get in reach of Arabic culture and of the great libraries that were built, for example, in Spain	了解阿拉伯文化和西班牙等地已建成的伟大图书馆
708	that for many centuries was ruled by Muslims.	数个世纪以来穆斯林一直统治着
709	And one of the great philosophers	也是伟大的哲学家之一
710	that Christians often refer to when it came to interpreting correctly Aristotle	基督徒在正确解释亚里士多德时经常提到
711	was Ibn Rushd, who was also known as Averro, who lived in Cordoba in southern Spain.	是伊本·拉希德(Ibn Rushd),他也被称为阿弗罗,他住在西班牙南部的科尔多瓦.
712	And around the year 1100, they started putting their hands on these libraries and	大约1100年他们开始把手放在图书馆上
713	to interface with the Arabic tradition.	用于与阿拉伯传统接口。
714	Now the Arabs had translated into Arabic	现在阿拉伯人已经翻译成阿拉伯语
715	a lot of Aristotle, Plato, and other great philosophers of antiquity centuries earlier	许多亚里士多德,柏拉图,以及其他古代的伟大哲学家
716	already.	已经。
717	And so Western Europe received all of these ancients, their own ancients, especially	因此西欧接收了所有这些古人, 他们自己的古人,特别是
718	the Greeks, not directly, but through the intermediation of Islamic culture, and in	希腊人,不是直接的,而是通过伊斯兰文化的中介,
719	translations from the Arab, not from the Greek, at least for a few centuries.	译自阿拉伯人,而非希腊人,至少几百年.
720	And so there was	所以说
721	this fundamental interface.	这个基本接口。
722	And it was absolutely essential to the development of Western	这绝对是西方发展的关键
723	natural philosophy and Western science.	自然哲学与西方科学.
724	Sometimes I think that lines are drawn too sharply between	有时候我觉得线条划得太过清晰
725	the West and Islam and China and so on.	西方和伊斯兰教以及中国等.
726	Because it's not how it happened.	因为事情不是这样发生的
727	Western civilization,	西方文明,
728	Western science, was built upon these Arabs.	西方科学是建立在这些阿拉伯人身上的
729	And these Arabs interfaced Europe with a much	这些阿拉伯人与欧洲交汇
730	larger world that stretched from Indonesia to Morocco and to Spain.	从印度尼西亚到摩洛哥和西班牙的世界
731	And for example,	比如说
732	one of the largest authorities when it came to the history of the Earth, to the origin of	地球历史地球起源
733	layer blocks, or to the idea of the perennial cycles of the Earth, which is basically indefinite age,	地层,或者说地球的常年循环, 基本上是无限的年代,
734	was a Persian philosopher, Ibn Sina, which is called in Abyssinian in Latin sources.	曾是波斯哲学家伊本·西纳(Ibn Sina),在拉丁语来源中被称作阿比西尼亚语.
735	But he was a Persian philosopher that died, that lived around the year 1000, mostly in Isfahan.	但他是一位去世的波斯哲学家,大约生活在1000年左右,大部分生活在伊斯法罕.
736	And he was revered as a great master until the 18th century.	他被尊为伟大的主人直到18世纪.
737	Since the 1700s, if you want to take	从1700年代开始,如果你愿意的话
738	your degree in medicine, you had to study your Abyssinian, as it was called, there is Ibn Sina.	你医学学位,你不得不学习你的阿比西尼亚语, 正如人们所说的,有伊本·西纳。
739	And around 1500, that there was indeed a preoccupation that these people that talk	在1500年左右, 这些人谈论,确实引起了人们的关注
740	of the world being eternal, yes, in theory, they should add that, well, it's not, of course,	世界是永恒的,是的,在理论上, 他们应该补充,嗯,它不是,当然,
741	what the church teaches, but I never liked it.	教会教的,但我从来不喜欢它。
742	And so there was a preoccupation that, I mean, some	所以有一个问题,我的意思是,一些
743	plain theoretical ideas like that the world was not actually created, were spreading.	平庸的理论思想,比如世界实际上不是创造出来的,正在传播。
744	And that there was a bit too much of intellectual freedom.	知识自由有点过份。
745	But who is the main reference of those Western philosophers that think of,	但谁是那些西方哲学家的主要参考,
746	that especially Aristotle and his worldview as the foundation of their philosophy?	特别是亚里士多德和他的世界观是他们哲学的基础?
747	That was Ibn Sina, I'm sorry, Ibn Rushd, who lived about one century	那是伊本·西纳对不起伊本·拉希德他活了一个世纪
748	after Ibn Sina in Cordova, in Spain.	继西班牙科尔多瓦的伊本·西纳之后.
749	He was, Averro, he was called in the Western sources,	他是,阿弗罗,他召在西方的消息,
750	he was the leader of these so-called radical Aristotelians, those who really	他是这些所谓的激进的阿里斯托特利安的领袖, 那些真正的
751	smell like herbs, so to speak.	闻如草药,故曰.
752	So the short answer to your question is yes, absolutely,	所以,你的问题的简短答案是,绝对,
753	just don't think of the Crusades themselves, but they as part of a movement that through conflict,	只是不认为十字军本身, 但他们作为一个运动的一部分通过冲突,
754	of course, brought Western culture into contact with a much larger world.	当然,使西方文化接触到一个更大的世界。
755	And it grew from this	它从此成长
756	denotions and experience of this much larger world.	这个大得多的世界的象征和经验。
757	And since I'm talking to a Chinese audience,	既然我跟中国观众说话
758	you know, for a long time, most of what was known about China in the West came from a book	你知道,很长一段时间以来, 西方对中国的了解大多来自一本书
759	that was written by a merchant of Venice, Marco Polo, who in the 1200s, and more or less,	这是威尼斯商人马可·波罗写的在1200年代
760	he was contemporary of Aristotle, traveled to China to try to establish	他曾经是亚里士多德的当代人,曾到中国寻求建立
761	a direct commercial line between Venice and Beijing.	威尼斯和北京之间的一条直接商业线路
762	And he stayed there for like 20 years.	他在那里呆了20年了。
763	And when he came back, he wrote this account of what he learned about China.	回来后,他写下了这个关于他所学中国的叙述.
764	And for,	而为.
765	I think that when Columbus embarked on his voyage, that in the end landed him in America,	我认为当哥伦布开始他的航行, 最终他登陆了美国,
766	his idea was that he hoped to reach Japan or China.	他的想法是他希望到达日本或中国。
767	And so he had a copy of Marco Polo's	所以他有一份马可波罗的
768	Book of Markets.	市场之书.
769	Right.	对
770	There's another question in the chat box.	聊天箱里还有一个问题
771	The chat says,	聊天说,
772	from the Bible, Noah heard about the flood by listening to God, not by looking at the	从圣经,诺亚听到洪水通过听上帝,而不是看
773	constellations.	星座图.
774	If this were true, no one else would have survived except Noah's family.	如果这是真的,除了诺亚的家人,其他人都不会幸存.
775	What's	何谓
776	your opinion about this?	你对此的看法?
777	And I guess the general sort of bigger question then is sort of how sort	我想一般的更大的问题是如何排序
778	of how literal did people interpret the Bible?	人们解释《圣经》的字面意义如何?
779	And sort of, you know, and then in the broader	有点,你知道,然后在更宽的
780	community, how does that play out?	社区,如何运作?
781	Yeah.	对
782	This question by Aya, I think, is correct.	我认为,阿亚提出的这个问题是正确的。
783	Noah hears about the flood by listening to God, not by looking for constellation.	诺亚通过听上帝的话,而不是通过寻找星座来听到洪水.
784	And	还有
785	actually, this author, Aristotle, doesn't question this account.	实际上,这位作者亚里士多德并不质疑这个说法.
786	What it really means here is that	这到底意味着
787	Noah received this advice from God directly, not by looking at the constellations.	诺亚直接从上帝那里得到这个建议,而不是通过看星座.
788	And he accepted that because this is what the Bible says.	他接受了这一点因为圣经是这样写的
789	What he's saying is that this knowledge	他说的就是这个知识
790	in principle was attainable even through human means.	即使通过人的手段,原则上也是可以实现的。
791	Why?	为什么?
792	Because God operates in the world	因为上帝在世界上运作
793	normally not through miracles, not through the laws of nature, that he himself had instituted	通常不是通过奇迹也不是通过自然法则他自己建立
794	nature.	性质。
795	This is absolutely not a secular or atheistic book, not in the least.	这绝对不是一本世俗或无神论的书,至少不是一本.
796	He speaks	他说话
797	many times of how the creation is wonderful work of God and so on.	许多次创造是如何是神的美妙作品等等。
798	But he says religion	但他说宗教
799	is religion and science is science.	是宗教,科学是科学。
800	When it comes to science, he won't interpret the world	说到科学,他不会解释世界
801	in natural terms, knowing always that God is up there and he is the root cause of everything.	自然的,永远知道上帝在那里,他是一切的根源。
802	But you leave it to theologians.	但你把它留给神学家。
803	You deal with the creation here and you study through	你在这里处理创造,你学习
804	natural laws and to observation and reason.	自然法则观察和理性
805	So what happens is that as long as you do not use	所以,会发生什么是只要你不使用
806	these signs, let's speak, to question fundamental truths of the Bible or to impinge it into the	这些迹象,让我们说, 质疑圣经的基本真理或侵入圣经
807	theology and of the church, you will be basically fine.	神学和教会, 你基本上会没事的。
808	So there is an episode that happened about	所以有一个插曲发生
809	one century later.	一个世纪后
810	So a university professor, we are talking about 1390, about one century later.	大学教授,我们谈论1390年,大约一个世纪后。
811	A university professor was summoned by the local bishop who was also the president	一位大学教授被当地主教传唤他也是总统
812	of the university by default.	默认的大学。
813	Why?	为什么?
814	Because apparently he was going around saying that	因为显然他到处说
815	Noah's flood was a tale that no one could believe.	诺亚的洪水是一个没人相信的故事.
816	The old story of Noah putting all	诺亚放所有的老故事
817	of his animals into the ark and so on and the flood being universal, it was an old story that	他的动物进入了方舟等等洪水普遍泛滥是一个古老的故事
818	no one could believe.	没人能相信
819	And so he was suspended from his chair and the bishop wanted him to clarify	于是他被停职主教希望他澄清
820	what he meant.	他说的是什么
821	And what he said was, well, of course, I was speaking as a natural philosopher,	他说,当然,我是作为一个自然哲学家,
822	that is from a scientific point of view.	这是从科学角度出发的。
823	So according to the laws of nature and to its	因此,根据自然法则
824	principles, he believed that you can never have a universal flood.	原则,他相信你永远不会有普遍的洪水。
825	This is what Aristotle thought.	这就是亚里士多德的想法。
826	He was bought into the floods, periodical floods, but he thought that some parts of the earth	他被买进了洪水,定期的洪水, 但他认为地球的一些地方
827	always emerged.	总是出现。
828	Otherwise, he had to explain how does humankind generates every time?	否则,他必须解释人类如何每次都产生?
829	That's a	这是
830	miracle once decided that he wants to make a universal flood and through miracles make it	奇迹曾经决定他想做一场全球洪水通过奇迹让它
831	possible for Noah to gather a couple of every animal in the ark and so on.	诺亚有可能在方舟里收集到一对动物等.
832	Well, that's about	嗯,这是关于
833	miracles, not about natural philosophy.	奇迹,而不是自然哲学
834	So this is not my business.	所以这不关我的事
835	I believe that to explain the	我认为,为了解释
836	theologians.	神学家
837	However, when it comes to interpreting the world from a scientific point of view,	然而,在从科学角度解释世界时,
838	this can happen.	这有可能发生。
839	I was speaking as a natural philosopher.	我是一个自然哲学家
840	Oh, really?	是吗?
841	The bishop said, sure.	主教说,当然。
842	Okay, fine.	好吧,没事。
843	And he was reinstated on his chair and suspension lasted exactly one day.	他被复职被停职整整一天
844	He was	他曾经是
845	admonished to make sure that his students get the message and that they don't get confused.	劝他的学生不要搞混
846	So one thing that is difficult for us to understand is that in their minds, the theological and moral	因此,我们难以理解的一件事是,在他们的思想中,神学和道德
847	explanation of the world could exist with a scientific explanation of the world.	对世界的解释可以通过对世界的科学解释而存在。
848	So	这么说
849	God wrote the book of the Bible, that is to teach us moral and theological truths.	神写了圣经的书,即教导我们道德和神学的真理.
850	And then he also made the universe.	然后他还创造了宇宙。
851	And these two can be studied independently using different	而这两个可以独立研究使用不同的
852	methods and they are different disciplines.	方法是不同的学科
853	Of course, sometimes there are overlaps.	当然,有时也有重叠。
854	For example,	举例来说,
855	Aristotle says that the world is eternal and no one created it.	亚里士多德说世界是永恒的,没有人创造它.
856	The church said that it was	教堂说那是
857	created.	创建。
858	Well, in this case, of course, we bow to the determinations of the church.	嗯,在这种情况下,当然,我们屈服于教会的决心。
859	But I mean,	但我想说,
860	they were even they weren't even asked to write it.	他们甚至没有被要求写。
861	Like here, he said nowhere.	像这里,他说没有。
862	He says that,	他说,
863	oh, yes, the world is eternal, but it's not what the church says.	哦,是的,世界是永恒的, 但它不是教堂说的。
864	Now, just like the world is eternal.	现在,就像世界是永恒的。
865	At a certain point, that becomes an understanding.	在某一时刻,这成为一种理解。
866	You don't even need to specify that.	你甚至不需要说明这一点。
867	But in theory,	但理论上
868	their assumption is that of course, you don't think the world is eternal. But those,	他们的假设是,当然, 你不认为世界是永恒的。但是这些
869	okay.	还好。
870	The assumption is that of course you don't think the world's eternal.	假设你当然不认为世界是永恒的。
871	But those, do because	但是,这些,做因为
872	they think the world's eternal. But those, okay. The assumption is that, of course,	他们认为世界是永恒的但是,这些,好吧。假设是,当然,
873	Points of overlaps are very few.	重叠点很少。
874	So for example, in 1277,	例如,在1277年,
875	there was a famous condemnation at the University of Paris of a number of theses,	巴黎大学曾有著名的谴责,
876	of Aristotle's theses that were supposedly taught at that university.	亚里士多德的论文应该是在那所大学教的
877	And among these theses was that the world is eternal.	在这些论文中,世界是永恒的。
878	You cannot teach that.	你不能教这个。
879	Okay.	摆
880	And another thesis was that God is not bound by the laws of nature.	另一个理论是上帝不受自然法则的约束。
881	One of the things that Aristotle said is that he thought it could be demonstrated logically	亚里士多德说的其中一件事就是他认为可以逻辑地证明
882	that you can only have one world and one Earth.	你只能拥有一个世界和一个地球
883	Georgians argued that if God wants, he can make other worlds.	格鲁吉亚人认为,如果上帝愿意,他可以创造其他世界.
884	Right?	对吧?
885	And natural philosophers said this is not possible according to what we know of nature.	而自然哲学家们说,根据我们对自然的了解,这是不可能的.
886	Not my business.	不关我的事
887	God is omnipotent and can do whatever he wants.	上帝是无所不能的,可以做他想要的。
888	Figure out a way it happens.	想想办法吧
889	So basically the possibility of the existence of other worlds	所以基本上其他世界存在的可能性
890	was upheld by the Church in the Middle Ages for theological reasons.	由于神学原因,中世纪时教会一直坚持.
891	And Aristotle also thought that it was never a first man,	而亚里士多德也认为它从来不是第一个人,
892	and so this proposition was condemned.	所以这个提议受到了谴责。
893	But we are talking of absolutely essential tenets of the Christian faith,	但我们是在谈论基督教信仰的绝对重要的信条,
894	that there was a creation, that there was first man, whatever it means.	有创造, 有第一个人, 不管它意味着什么。
895	Okay, maybe today it can even mean for a believer that there was organic evolution	好吧,也许今天它甚至可以意味着一个信仰者有有机进化
896	at a certain point when the human body is ready,	在人的身体准备好的时候
897	God infused an immortal soul in the real first man.	上帝将不朽的灵魂注入了真正的第一人
898	Okay, however it happened, there was a first man.	好吧,不管发生什么,有一个第一个男人。
899	God is omnipotent.	神通无边.
900	It's not part of nature, but is above nature.	这不是自然的一部分,而是高于自然。
901	And the laws of nature are the result of God's choice.	而自然之法,乃神所选也.
902	These are absolutely fundamental tenets of Christianity.	这些是基督教的绝对基本原则。
903	Nowhere this condemnation said you have to teach that the Earth is 6,000 years old.	在任何地方,这种谴责都说,你必须教导地球有6000年的历史。
904	This is absolutely nowhere to be found.	这绝对是找不到的地方。
905	So as long as you stay away from these areas of overlap,	只要你远离这些重叠领域
906	or acknowledge that if a contrast happens,	或者承认如果出现对比,
907	but we do have a higher light and have to believe in this higher light.	但我们有更高的光并且必须相信这个更高的光。
908	As long as you do that, it's not really a big deal.	只要你这么做,那就没什么大不了的
909	So Aristotle can write that this knowledge is attainable even through human means,	因此亚里士多德可以写道,即使通过人的手段,这种知识也是可以实现的,
910	and maybe someone else in a different time or different creation.	也许另一个人在不同的时间或不同的创作。
911	Before the story of the creation that the Bible tells us,	在圣经告诉我们的创造故事之前
912	because there is also a chance, the possibility,	因为还有一个机会,可能性,
913	that the story that is told in the Bible is the story of the present human time,	圣经里讲的故事是人类时代的故事
914	or the present creation.	或现众生.
915	And that maybe the Earth went through great catastrophes,	也许地球经历了巨大的灾难
916	and there was a huge universal flood, and humankind was annihilated,	洪水泛滥,人类灭亡,
917	and then God creates a new humankind, and this is the story told in the Bible.	然后上帝创造了一个新的人类, 这就是圣经里讲的故事。
918	And this was also helped, and discussed without too many problems.	这一点也得到了帮助,并且没有太多问题地进行了讨论。
919	Okay, so there are really very few points at a time when we have this contrast.	好吧,所以我们有一个非常少的点当我们有这个对比。
920	The problem was in the late 1600s when we start saying,	问题是在1600年代末当我们开始说,
921	and there were some delirialists that began to accuse natural philosophers or physicists	有一些精神分裂主义者开始指责自然哲学家或物理学家
922	that believed in ancient Earth of being irreligious and atheists,	他们信仰古老的大地,信奉非教和无神论,
923	because they did not believe in the letter of the Bible or in this universal flood.	因为他们不相信圣经的字母也不相信这场普遍的洪水
924	But it was absolutely new.	但它绝对是新的。
925	It was not what happened in the Middle Ages or in the early modern Europe.	这不是中世纪或早期现代欧洲所发生的事情。
926	And indeed, the Enlightenment philosophers exploited the situation	事实上,启蒙主义哲学家们利用了这种局面
927	to present the Church of Christianity as a force against the progress of knowledge.	将基督教会视为反对知识进步的力量。
928	Thank you, everybody, for great questions,	感谢大家的好问
929	and thank you, Professor, for engaging us with such an interesting conversation,	谢谢你,教授, 与我们进行如此有趣的谈话,
930	and I look forward to reading more in the book.	我期待着在书中读更多。
931	Thank you.	谢谢
932	So it has been really an honor and a pleasure to talk to you.	因此,这是真的荣誉和高兴与你交谈。
933	Of course.	当然
934	Thanks for your engagement once again.	再次感谢你的订婚
935	Thank you.	谢谢
936	And I will unmute everybody so that everybody can feel free to thank Professor de Preté	我将解除每个人的责备让每个人都可以自由地感谢德普雷特教授
937	yourselves.	你们自己
938	Thank you all, and have a good rest of the day.	谢谢大家,祝你今天愉快
939	Thank you.	谢谢
940	Bye.	再见。
941	Thank you.	谢谢
942	Bye.	再见。

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