大浪淘沙三千年的历史，这本书为何从黄河成为黄河以前开始讲起？

发布于 2022-12-23 · 时长 1:02:16

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	Good day, everyone, and especially to our speaker,	日安,各位,特别是我们的演讲者,
0:07	Ruth Mostern from the University of Pittsburgh.	匹兹堡大学的露丝·莫斯特恩
0:10	Welcome to this talk on her book, The Yellow River,	欢迎来到她的书《黄河》里
0:15	which is part of the Yale Center Beijing,	是耶鲁中心北京的一部分
0:18	Yale University Press, Find Your Next Great Read series.	耶鲁大学出版社,"寻找你的下一个伟大阅读"系列.
0:22	I'm also very excited to share with you	我也很高兴能与你分享
0:24	that Professor Mostern's book	摩斯特教授的书
0:26	is going to be translated into Chinese.	将翻译成中文。
0:29	And so stay tuned at our WeChat account	并保持调用我们的微信账户
0:33	for news about when her book is coming out in China.	她的书什么时候在中国出版

展开字幕全文（1108 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Good day, everyone, and especially to our speaker,	日安,各位,特别是我们的演讲者,
2	Ruth Mostern from the University of Pittsburgh.	匹兹堡大学的露丝·莫斯特恩
3	Welcome to this talk on her book, The Yellow River,	欢迎来到她的书《黄河》里
4	which is part of the Yale Center Beijing,	是耶鲁中心北京的一部分
5	Yale University Press, Find Your Next Great Read series.	耶鲁大学出版社,"寻找你的下一个伟大阅读"系列.
6	I'm also very excited to share with you	我也很高兴能与你分享
7	that Professor Mostern's book	摩斯特教授的书
8	is going to be translated into Chinese.	将翻译成中文。
9	And so stay tuned at our WeChat account	并保持调用我们的微信账户
10	for news about when her book is coming out in China.	她的书什么时候在中国出版
11	So today the book is on her book,	所以今天这本书在她的书上
12	which is published by the Yale University Press	由耶鲁大学出版社出版
13	called The Yellow River, A Natural and Unnatural History.	被称为"黄河,自然和非自然历史".
14	For those of us who grew up here in China,	对于在中国长大的人来说
15	we've always learned about the Yellow River	我们一直知道黄河的事
16	as the cradle of our civilization, the mother river.	作为我们文明的摇篮, 母河。
17	And Professor Ruth Mostern	还有鲁斯·莫斯特恩教授
18	have done some very,	已经做了一些非常,
19	she has done some really interesting work	她已经做了一些非常有趣的工作
20	weaving together multiple disciplines	编织多个学科
21	from Neolithic times to the present day,	从新石器时代到今天,
22	the Yellow River and its watershed	黄河及其分水岭
23	have both shaped and been shaped by human society.	由人类社会塑造和塑造
24	So she uses the Yellow River	所以她用黄河
25	to illustrate the long-term effects	以说明长期影响
26	of environmentally significant human activity	具有重大环境意义的人类活动
27	and unravels the long history	揭开漫长的历史
28	of human relationship with water and soil	人类与水和土壤的关系
29	and the consequences, which are at times disastrous	后果,有时是灾难性的
30	and ecological transformations	和生态变化
31	that resulted from human decisions.	这是人类决定的结果。
32	Professor Mostern and I were just chatting	莫斯登教授和我只是聊天
33	that this could be a book about COVID	这可能是一本关于COVID的书
34	and many of the seismic changes	以及许多地震变化
35	that we've been going through in the world	我们一直在经历的世界
36	and in this society.	在这个社会中
37	And today we're so grateful	今天我们非常感激
38	to be able to have her talk about this book,	能让她谈这本书
39	the transformation, the ecological history	转变,生态历史
40	and the profound conclusions that we could draw	以及我们可以得出的深刻结论
41	from how the natural system evolve	从自然系统是如何演变的
42	and how we shape the natural system in good and bad ways.	以及我们如何以优劣的方式塑造自然系统。
43	Professor Ruth Mostern is professor of history	鲁斯·莫斯特恩教授是历史教授
44	and director of the World History Center	世界历史中心主任
45	at the University of Pittsburgh.	在匹兹堡大学
46	She is the author of two books,	她是两本书的作者,
47	Dividing the Realm in Order to Govern,	把王国分给戈文
48	the Spatial Organization of the Song State, 960 to 1276 CE	宋国空间组织,960年至1276年
49	and The Yellow River,	和黄河,
50	which is what we're gonna talk about today.	这就是我们今天要谈的
51	She's the author or co-author of over 30 articles	她是三十多篇文章的作者或共同作者
52	published in books and peer-reviewed journals.	发表在书籍和同行评审期刊上。
53	She's the principal investigator and project director	她是首席调查员兼项目主任
54	of the World Historical Gazetteer,	世界历史地名典,
55	which is a prize-winning digital infrastructure platform	这是一个获奖的数字基础设施平台
56	for integrating databases	数据库整合
57	of historical place name information.	历史地名信息。
58	Her research has been funded by entities	她的研究是由实体资助的
59	that include the US National Endowment for the Humanities,	包括美国国家人文基金,
60	the US National Science Foundation,	美国国家科学基金会,
61	the American Council of Learned Societies and others.	美国学会理事会等。
62	Today's event will go as follows.	今天的活动如下。
63	Professor Mostern will be giving a presentation	莫斯特恩教授将作演讲
64	and then I will invite our Zoom participants	然后,我将邀请我们的"缩放"参与者
65	to comment and post questions in the chat box	在聊天框中评论和张贴问题
66	as they pop up.	当他们弹出。
67	I would like to invite all of you to stay muted for now	我想请大家暂时保持安静
68	and depending on the remaining time after her presentation,	根据她发言后的剩余时间,
69	I may either unmute you or in the interest of time,	我也许可以不责怪你或者为了时间考虑
70	I may post the questions that you post in the chat box.	我可以把您在聊天箱里发的问题贴上
71	I'm very much looking forward to this talk	我很期待这次谈话
72	and I hope you are too.	我希望你也一样。
73	And without further ado,	再不说下去
74	let's welcome Professor Ruth Mostern, thank you.	欢迎露丝·莫斯特恩教授谢谢
75	Great, well, thank you so much for that kind introduction.	非常感谢你的介绍
76	I am so happy to be with you today	今天跟你在一起我很高兴
77	and to talk about my book.	谈谈我的书
78	Let me go ahead and share my screen.	让我来分享我的屏幕
79	So I'm talking today as Carol said about my book	今天我讲的是卡罗尔说的我的书
80	published about a year ago,	大约一年前,
81	The Yellow River, A Natural and Unnatural History.	黄河 A 自然与非自然历史.
82	And I wanna start by introducing to you a version of a map	我想首先向你们介绍地图的版本
83	which in some ways is probably very familiar to you.	在某些方面你可能非常熟悉。
84	In other ways, I think provides a different perspective	换句话说,我从不同的角度看问题
85	on the Yellow River, a river that you see	在黄河上,你看到的河流
86	on all of the maps of China that you peruse.	在所有的中国地图上,你浏览。
87	And you can see here on this map,	你可以从地图上看到
88	the river itself is visible.	河本身是可见的。
89	If you can see my cursor, right?	如果你能看到我的光标,对不对?
90	You can see the line of the river.	可见江河之线.
91	But my intention on this map and in all my work	但我在地图上和所有作品上的意图
92	is to ask what if instead of seeing the river	是问,如果不是看到河
93	as a line of water passing through a dry landscape	作为一条流经干燥景观的水线
94	to instead to see it as part of an entire watershed.	而是把它视为整个流域的一部分。
95	And so that's what you see here	所以这就是你在这里看到的
96	is the entire watershed of the Yellow River,	是黄河的整个分水岭,
97	including the headwaters of the river in the far west	包括远西的河头
98	in Qinghai at the edge of the Tibetan Plateau,	在青海青藏高原边缘,
99	including outlined here in white.	包括这里的白话
100	This is such an important part of the story	这是故事的重要部分
101	I'm telling here is the Les Plateau	我告诉这里是Les高原
102	and then to the east of the Les Plateau,	然后在莱斯高原以东
103	the alluvial plain of the river in East China.	东莞河冲积平原.
104	And so in addition to all of the watershed of the river,	所以除了河流的所有分水岭之外
105	you can also see here the range of soil types,	您也可以在这里看到土壤种类的范围,
106	vegetation cover actually on the river,	河上植被覆盖,
107	which includes in light green arable land,	包括绿地,
108	in dark green forests and highland places,	在深绿森林和高原地区,
109	in dark browns or medium toned brown is grasslands	深棕色或中棕色是草原
110	and in yellow is desert.	黄色是沙漠。
111	And so this shows, I think really vividly	因此,这个显示, 我认为非常生动
112	so much about the history of the river,	这么多关于河的历史,
113	which is a history of people expanding agriculture	这是人民扩大农业的历史
114	wherever agriculture can be expanded	在农业能够扩大的地方
115	while also placing settlements on grasslands	同时在草原上安置居民点
116	and also dealing with the sort of complex multi-ethnic world	处理复杂的多种族世界
117	of these sort of ecotone regions,	这些生态松区域,
118	these transition regions between grassland and desert.	草原和沙漠之间的过渡区域。
119	And so this is the river, but it's the river depicted,	这就是河流,但这是描述的河流,
120	I hope in a novel and thought-provoking way.	我希望有一个小说和发人深省的方式。
121	One other version of the same watershed here focusing again	同一流域的另一个版本再次聚焦于此
122	on this dynamic relationship between the Les Plateau	关于莱斯高原之间动态关系的
123	in Shanxi, part of Shanxi, Gansu,	在山西,山西,甘肃的一部分,
124	and the alluvial plain to the east.	和东边的冲积平原
125	And here focusing on the fact that over the course	而这里集中的事实, 在整个过程中
126	of prehistoric and recorded history,	史前史前史书和史书
127	the river, as I'm sure all of you know,	河流,我相信你们都知道,
128	has changed course many, many times,	改变过很多次,很多次,
129	has really occupied the entirety of the alluvial plain,	真正占据了整个冲积平原,
130	sometimes in multiple simultaneous courses,	有时在多个同时课程,
131	sometimes in successive courses.	有时在连续的课程。
132	Historically, the entirety of the Yellow River Plain here	历史上,这里的黄河平原
133	would have been lakes, wetlands, marshes,	本来是湖泊、湿地、沼泽
134	multiple tributaries, a shallow river	多条支流,一条浅河
135	through a very flat landscape	通过非常平坦的景观
136	that can meander across all of that territory.	能穿越整个领土
137	And one of the other things that I stress	还有一件事,我强调
138	sort of as I look at this map is that when the river does	我看着这张地图时发现当河里有
139	that, it's not doing something disastrous, right?	它不会做灾难性的事,对吧?
140	So the behavior of the river, which is just simply	所以,河的行为,这只是简单的
141	to be water occupying a world in the context of ecosystems	在生态系统中成为水所占据的世界
142	and in a context of the dynamics of gravity, right?	在重力的动态背景下,对不对?
143	The river is just being the river.	河只是为河.
144	And that behavior only becomes something that people see	而这种行为只会变成人们所看到的
145	as problematic and disastrous at the point	问题和灾难性
146	that they are building cities, expanding agriculture	他们正在建设城市,扩大农业
147	and doing the things that they have to do	做他们必须做的事
148	in order for that to be successful,	为了成功,
149	like building levees, extinguishing wetlands and so on.	譬如建堤,灭湿地等.
150	So this is the view of the river	这就是河的风景
151	that I am presenting in my book.	在我的书中。
152	I like to say that this is a book that is about soil	我想说,这是一本关于土壤的书
153	as much as it's about water.	何等为水.
154	It's about the way that human activity	这是关于人类活动的方式
155	on the West Plateau causes erosion	在西高原上造成侵蚀
156	and the way that that eroded less soil	以及侵蚀较少土壤的方式
157	makes its way into the river, down to the flood plain	进入河中,进入洪水平原
158	and is then as the level of the riverbed rises	然后随着河床水平的上升
159	is the source of the floods that are so much	是洪水的源头如此多
160	of the dynamic of the way that people talk	人们说话方式的动态
161	about the Yellow River.	关于黄河.
162	And this quote that I have here	我这里有一句引言
163	in the bottom right side of my slide	在我的幻灯片右下方
164	is a really important piece of what I'm doing here.	我在这里做的事很重要
165	And it's from a couple of environmental scientists.	这是来自几个环境科学家。
166	I read a lot of environmental science	我读了很多环境科学
167	as well as works of history	以及历史著作
168	and as well as doing geographical analysis.	以及进行地理分析。
169	And the idea is that less is very resistant to erosion	而这个想法是较少的抗侵蚀能力
170	under vegetation cover, but readily erodible without it.	在植被的覆盖之下, 但很容易被欣赏,没有它。
171	And what this is telling us is that the history of erosion,	这告诉我们的是侵蚀的历史
172	the history of the rising sediment in the Yellow River	黄河中不断上升的沉积物的历史
173	is a history of the removal of ground cover	是去除地面覆盖的历史
174	on the West Plateau.	在西高原上。
175	And the microscopic image that you can see	你可以看到的微缩图像
176	on the top right hand side of this slide	此幻灯片右上方
177	is demonstrating that the reason why	说明为什么
178	sort of a significant characteristic of less soil	一种土壤较少的重要特征
179	is that it's comprised of tiny grains of multiple shapes	由多种形状的小颗粒组成
180	which means that it is a sort of a very loose type of soil	意思是它是一种非常松散的土壤
181	when it's covered with ground cover.	盖地时.
182	It's also why it can so easily just sort of blow away	这也是为什么它可以这么容易只是那种吹走
183	through wind and water processes as a fine dust.	作为细微的尘埃,通过风和水的过程
184	Also why it has historically as many of you probably know	也是为什么历史上你们中很多人都知道
185	in imperial times been used as a building material	在帝国时代被用作建筑材料
186	as hard as concrete, there's still pounded	像混凝土一样坚硬仍然被击倒
187	less soil structures visible in the landscape	景观上可见的土壤结构较少
188	across this region.	整个区域
189	And the series of photos on the left I call my less selfies	左边的系列照片,我叫小自拍
190	and that's just me holding a clump of the soil	那只是我拿着一块土
191	and demonstrating that it can just easily kind of fall apart	并证明它很容易崩溃
192	into this fine wind-borne dust.	进入这微尘埃中
193	And so another piece of this story, of course,	所以这个故事的另一个部分,当然,
194	or another way of saying that same piece of the story	或另一种说法同样的故事
195	is that the amount of erosion on the West Plateau	是西高原的侵蚀程度
196	throughout the Yellow River Basin	整个黄河流域
197	has changed dramatically over time.	随着时间的推移,情况发生了巨大变化。
198	And this is another one of the insights that I've acquired	这是我获得的又一洞察力
199	from reading the work of environmental scientists.	从阅读环境科学家的工作。
200	And so the chart you see here is derived from soil cores	因此,你在这里看到的图表来源于土壤核心
201	taken throughout the basin	整个流域
202	that contain enough organic material that it's possible	含有足够有机材料的
203	to date when soil was deposited	土壤沉积至今
204	and to come up with a 12,000 year timeline	提出12 000年的时间表
205	of changing erosion rates,	侵蚀率变化,
206	which begin at the end of the ice age	从冰河时代结束开始
207	在Pleistocene时代,低侵蚀,
208	which rises only a little bit	它只升起一点点
209	(原始内容存档于2019-09-21). In the Holocene climate bestival.
210	This is the period from about 9,000 to 6,000 years ago	这是9000到6000年前的时期
211	when people started engaging in agriculture.	当人们开始从事农业。
212	It was a warm and moist time.	那是一个温暖湿润的时间。
213	Agriculture in that era, of course, was not very intensive	当然,那个时代的农业并不十分密集
214	and also the ability of vegetation to regrow	以及植被重新生长的能力
215	was really high.	实在是太高了
216	The story really takes off	故事真的开始
217	during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age.	在新石器时代和青铜时代.
218	So basically from the Neolithic into the Western Joe,	所以基本上从新石器到西乔
219	the War of States period,	战争时期,
220	when you can see rapidly rising rates of erosion	当你看到快速上升的侵蚀率
221	as people started engaging in more intensive agriculture,	随着人们开始从事更密集的农业,
222	in deforestation in order to power forges and mills.	以制造伪造和磨坊
223	And then really dramatically,	然后非常戏剧化,
224	you can see this very, very rapid raise	你可以看到这个非常,非常迅速的升起
225	in the rate of erosion during the Imperial Age.	在帝国时代的侵蚀率。
226	Always there were low rainfall years.	降雨量一直很低。
227	There's a relationship because the human impact on erosion	有关系是因为人类对侵蚀的影响
228	was so profound, it really overtakes climate impacts.	它是如此深刻, 它真的超过气候影响。
229	That's something that became really clear	事情变得非常清楚
230	that I did not expect to find when I began this research.	当我开始这个研究时,我没想到会发现
231	But, and so long-term trends in climate	但是,如此长期的气候趋势
232	don't make much of a difference,	别多管闲事
233	but always each year's weather is really significant.	但每年的天气都很重要
234	There are always years of low rainfall	降雨量一直很低
235	when there is much less erosion,	当侵蚀减少的时候,
236	much less of a risk of flooding,	更不要说洪水的风险了
237	as well as high rainfall years	以及高降雨量年份
238	when really accumulations of sediment	当沉积物真正积累时
239	could all wash into the river at once.	可以马上冲进河里
240	This is another version of the same data.	这是同一数据的另一个版本。
241	And what I really wanna stress here,	而我真正想强调的是
242	again, this is the 12,000 year timeframe.	这也是12 000年的时限。
243	You can see on the vertical axis,	在垂直轴上可以看到
244	this is a sort of a logarithmic chart.	这是某种对数图表。
245	So it's sort of orders of magnitude	所以,这是某种数量级
246	of increase in the amount of sediment	沉积物数量的增加
247	with really this interesting rupture point	有个有趣的断点
248	about a thousand years ago when the rate of increase	大约一千年前,当上升的速度
249	kind of went up by a whole order of magnitude.	某种程度的上升。
250	And so there's basically a sort of a pre-song story	因此,基本上有一个一种前歌的故事
251	of the river and a kind of a post-song version of the river.	和一种后歌版本的河流。
252	This is actually a version of this chart	这其实是这个图表的版本
253	is the thing that I saw that really started me	我看见的东西真正开始我
254	on this whole research project,	关于整个研究项目,
255	because I was at that time finishing a book about the,	因为我当时正在写一本关于...
256	finishing writing a book about the Song dynasty	写完一本关于宋朝的书
257	that was partly about the Song colonization of the Northwest	部分是关于西北方的宋殖民
258	and the Song Xixia War.	与宋西夏战争.
259	And so I started this research,	所以我开始了这个研究,
260	the research for the Yellow River book,	黄河书的研究,
261	wondering if there was a way that that story,	想知道如果有什么办法那故事,
262	that story of the Song Xixia War	宋西夏战争的故事
263	was perhaps more significant	也许更重要的
264	as a part of the Yellow River story as well	作为黄河故事的一部分
265	than had been visible to previous scholars.	而不是以前学者所见的。
266	And so to conclude a couple of the propositions	因此,得出一些建议
267	that I'm bringing to this book,	我带来了这本书,
268	one is the idea that rivers are sediment sorting machines.	一个想法是河流是沉积分拣机
269	That is that rather than thinking about them	而不是想他们
270	as lines of water in a landscape,	以大地上的水线盟誓,
271	we can think of them as sort of large ecosystem entities	我们可以把它们看作是一种大型生态系统实体
272	that are involved with carrying organic	携带有机体
273	and inorganic material downhill by the force of gravity.	和无机材料下坡的重力。
274	Another from Richard White,	另一个来自理查德·怀特,
275	the idea that rivers have biographies,	关于河流有传记的想法,
276	that they're not always the same thing,	他们并不总是一样的东西,
277	that they themselves are the agents	他们自己是特工
278	and the subjects of historical change.	和历史变化的主体。
279	And then the third, this paradoxical statement that I love	第三个,这个荒谬的说法,我喜欢
280	from Mark Elvin, environmental historian,	从马克埃尔文, 环境历史学家,
281	that China has experienced 3000 years	中国经历了3000年
282	of unsustainable growth.	不可持续增长。
283	And I love that idea that when we think of unsustainability,	我喜欢这个想法, 当我们想到不可持续,
284	we think of something that just can't be sustained.	我们想到的是无法维持的东西
285	And yet when we think of 3000 years of growth,	然而,当我们想到 3000年的增长,
286	we're thinking that just the opposite.	我们想的正好相反
287	We're thinking, wow, this is an amazing amount	我们想,哇,这是惊人的金额
288	of just like civilizational sustenance, right?	就像文明的供养,对不对?
289	And so this history that I'm telling	我所讲的历史
290	is really kind of pivoting on that paradox.	实在是有点支持这个悖论。
291	So this is another view of the question	所以,这是另一个观点的问题
292	of how erosion proceeded on the West Plateau,	西高原的侵蚀情况
293	basically from this point of view in three different phases.	基本上从这个角度来看,分三个不同的阶段。
294	So it's not a gradually rising rate of erosion,	因此,这不是逐渐上升的侵蚀速度,
295	as I've been explaining,	我一直在解释
296	it's a matter of sort of one pulse in the Neolithic,	在新石器系的脉冲上,
297	a second pulse in the Western Han,	西汉时期的第二个脉搏,
298	and a third pulse that starts in the Northern Song.	和从北宋开始的第三个脉搏
299	And this is really tying that to rates	这真的与利率挂钩
300	of deforestation over time	森林砍伐情况
301	from an estimated amount of forest cover.	估计森林覆盖率。
302	And again, this is partially derived	再说一遍,这是部分衍生出来的
303	from historical sources,	从历史渊源,
304	partially derived from looking at remains of pollen	部分来源于对花粉残骸的观察
305	in soil cores, 50% tree coverage on the West Plateau	西高原50%的树木覆盖率
306	in the Western Zhou,	在西周时,
307	declining to 33% by the Tang and Song,	被唐人和宋人贬为33%
308	15% by the end of the Imperial era.	在帝国时代末期达到15%.
309	And of course now, as many of you know,	当然了,你们都知道
310	as all of you know, I'm sure,	你们都知道,我确定
311	a really sustained re-greening effort.	真正的持续重新绿化的努力。
312	So what does that?	那又怎样?
313	So this is basically what I'm really trying to stress	这基本上就是我想强调的
314	is a couple of things.	是两件事。
315	One is how much the story of the Yellow River	一是黄河的故事有多少
316	is a story about the West Plateau.	这是一个关于西高原的故事。
317	Another is that that story is a story of human settlement.	另一个问题是,这个故事是关于人类住区的故事。
318	I've done a lot of database design work	我做了很多数据库设计工作
319	and spatial analysis.	和空间分析。
320	What you see here on the bottom right	你从右下方看到的东西
321	includes some archeological information	包括一些考古资料
322	about Han and Xiongnu cemeteries.	关于汉族和X族的墓地。
323	The two images on the left come from	左边的两个图像来自
324	the great Tan Xixiang Historical Atlas,	伟大的谭西香历史地图集
325	the Zhongguolishu Di Tuqi, the historical Atlas of China.	中国历史地图集·中古利舒·迪·图奇.
326	And it's showing the expansion of settlements	并显示出定居点的扩张
327	from the top, the Qin times,	从上,秦时,
328	bottom is Han times.	底是汉时.
329	And you can see the settlements expanding	你可以看到定居点在扩张
330	towards the North and West in the Ordos,	在鄂尔多河畔,
331	the Great Bend of the Yellow River during the Han.	汉时期黄河大弯.
332	And this is just a couple of things	而这只是一些事情
333	I think I wanna talk about with these images.	我想谈谈这些画面
334	One is the way that this less soil was used	一种是这种少用土壤的方式
335	as a building material.	作为建筑材料。
336	This is just outside of Xian, right?	这是在西安外面,对不对?
337	Of course, the Han capital of Chang'an	当然,长安的汉城
338	showing the way that that soil was used	说明土壤的使用方式
339	to build reservoirs and waterworks and levees	建造水库、水厂和堤岸;
340	as early as the Tang, sorry, as early as the Han.	早在唐,哀,汉.
341	And then on the right, the Jing River	右边是静河
342	near its confluence with the Wei	靠近它与魏国的交汇处,
343	showing that it lies far below the level	显示它远远低于水平
344	of the surrounding farmland,	和周围的农田,
345	which was not the case in the Qin and Han period	秦汉时期不是这样
346	and is now running through sort of bare rocky landscape,	并正在经历一些裸露的岩石景观,
347	not through the kind of meters of rich soil	而不是通过那种米丰富的土壤
348	that would have existed at the time	那时本可以存在的
349	that these structures were built.	这些结构是建造的。
350	By middle period times, and as I've stressed,	到了中间期,我强调,
351	this is really what I'm most interested in	这才是我最感兴趣的
352	is this pulse of dramatic increase of erosion	是侵蚀急剧增加的脉搏
353	that occurred during the Song	歌唱时期发生的
354	and was really associated with the Song-Xixia War.	并且真的和宋西夏战争有关
355	And you can see that really dramatically	你可以看到,真的戏剧性
356	if you look at these maps.	如果你看这些地图。
357	With map A at the top right part of the slide	幻灯片右上方的地图A
358	showing the distribution of settlements	显示定居点分布情况
359	that existed in the Tang in the mid eighth century.	它存在于8世纪中叶的唐人
360	This is right before the An Lushan rebellion,	就在安禄山叛乱之前
361	the expansion of settlements in the early Northern Song.	北宋初期扩建居民点.
362	And then really significantly,	礛璶
363	I want you to focus on that image C	我要你把注意力放在C的图像上
364	at the bottom right-hand side of the slide.	在幻灯片右下方。
365	This is what the distribution of settlements	这就是定居点的分布
366	looks like in 1111,	看起来像在1111,
367	right before the fall of the Northern Song.	就在北宋灭亡之前
368	And the stars represent prefectures.	而星辰代表着各县.
369	These are the larger government units.	这些是较大的政府单位.
370	These are like Fu and Zhou, right?	这就像傅和周,对不对?
371	The diamond shape icons represent counties.	钻石形状图标代表郡.
372	And then those black dots, those small black circles.	然后那些黑点,那些小黑圈。
373	And again, this is from the historical Atlas of China,	再说一遍,这是中国历史地图集
374	the Zhongguolishu Di Chuji.	中古里修·帝楚纪.
375	These are units below the level of the county	这些是县级以下的单位
376	in this sort of three level administrative hierarchy	这种三级行政级别
377	of the Song dynasty.	宋朝时设置.
378	And so these are forts, garrisons,	这些是堡垒、守军
379	postal stations, horse farms, villages, right?	邮政站,马场,村庄,对不对?
380	But a lot of them, a lot, a lot of them	但是他们很多,很多,很多
381	are military fortifications.	是军事防御工事
382	And of course it was not until the Ming	当然,直到明朝
383	that there was such a thing as the Great Wall,	那里有长城,
384	but the idea in the Northern Song	但北宋的主张
385	was that these garrisons	是这些驻军
386	along the Northern border of the Song,	沿着北宋边境,
387	which is what you see there,	你们在那里所看见的,
388	running right across the middle of the Ordos region,	穿过奥多斯地区中部,
389	those garrisons should be close enough	那些驻军应该足够近了
390	that they should be visible one to the next	他们将被看见,
391	for signal fires.	为信号火。
392	They essentially formed a wall	他们基本上形成了一堵墙
393	and they did so right along the fragile grasslands region	沿着脆弱的草原地区他们就这么做了
394	of this highly erodible soil	这土壤中,
395	that I've been telling you about.	我一直告诉你。
396	And this is the region we're talking about.	这就是我们谈论的地区。
397	Basically, this is the Wuding River,	基本上,这是武丁河
398	the major tributary of the Yellow River	黄河的主要支流
399	that runs through the grasslands region.	穿过草原地区。
400	The image that you see on the left	左边的图像
401	depicts what that highly eroded,	描绘那被严重侵蚀的事物,
402	dissected landscape looks like today.	解剖的景观看起来像今天。
403	This is just outside the city of Yulin.	今此犹林城外.
404	And so what this looked like,	所以,这个样子,
405	and this is just kind of reiterating	这不过是在重复
406	what I was just talking about,	我刚才说的,
407	which is that in the year the Great,	那是伟大的一年,
408	we can really pinpoint to the exact decade	我们真的可以确定确切的十年
409	when this highly erosion-causing military strategy	当这种高度侵蚀性的军事战略
410	was put in place.	已经到位。
411	And it was during the war between 1040 and 1041	1040年到1041年战争期间
412	when the number of people and horses in the Ordos	当奥尔多斯人和马的数量
413	increased from 34,000 horses and 155,000 people	从34 000匹马和155 000人增加
414	to 500,000 troops, 32,000 Imperial soldiers,	给50万军队,32 000名帝国士兵,
415	well, from 32,000 soldiers to 500 battalions,	从32 000名士兵到500个营
416	500,000 troops, 300,000 cavalry.	50万部队,30万骑兵.
417	This is the intensive moment of fortification	这是强化的密集时刻
418	that occurred in this region.	发生在这个地区。
419	And this continued on, of course, in the Ming	这当然在明朝继续
420	through the Great Wall era.	穿越长城时代.
421	So by, well, I should say, actually,	所以,嗯,我应该说,实际上,
422	I wanna focus for just a second	我想专心一下
423	on the top right-hand map that you see here from 1330.	1330年的右上方地图上
424	This is during the Yuan, during the Mongol era.	这是元朝时期,蒙古时期.
425	And one of the things I try to be really attentive to	还有一件事,我试图真正关注
426	in my book is not just to tell this story	在我的书中不只是说这个故事
427	as if it's one of things getting worse and worse,	好像事情越来越糟一样
428	what environmental historians call declensionism, right?	环境史学家们称之为减压主义,对吧?
429	As historians and especially as environmental historians,	作为历史学家,特别是环境史学家,
430	we always wanna make sure that things stay complicated.	我们总想确保事情保持复杂
431	And so the era in which the Jin and the Yuan	于是晋国和元国的时代
432	controlled North China	控制下的华北
433	when there wasn't an adversarial relationship	没有对抗关系的时候
434	between an ethnically Han regime	汉族政权之间
435	in the Ordos and on the West Plateau	在奥尔多斯和西高原
436	and between pastoralists, horse riding,	牲畜之间,有骑马的,
437	and mobile people to the North.	和流动人员北上。
438	During that period of the 1100s, 1200s, 1300s,	在1100年代,1200年代,1300年代,
439	this was a time when there was low population	那时人口很少
440	on the West Plateau, when there was the opportunity	在西高原上,当有机会
441	for forests and grasslands to regrow	供森林和草原重新生长
442	prior to a sort of another pulse of fortification	在另一种强化脉冲之前
443	and development in the Ming and Qing.	与明清时期的发展.
444	And what that looks like then	那时候的样子
445	is something like the picture on the bottom right.	像是右下方的照片一样
446	And of course, the map, this 16th century map,	当然地图 16世纪的地图
447	same time period of the building of the Great Wall,	建造长城的同一时间段,
448	again, right through this most fragile grasslands region	穿过这个最脆弱的草原
449	of the West Plateau.	在西高原。
450	And then onward to the Qing, when for the first time,	之后去清人,当第一次,
451	and really, I think the lasting success	而且真的,我认为持久的成功
452	of the Ming Great Wall era was not so much	明长城时代没有这么多
453	that it was a good military strategy.	这是个好军事策略
454	Clearly it was not, but that during that period	显然不是,但在那段时期
455	is when for the first time,	是什么时候第一次,
456	the Chinese part of the Ordos became	鄂尔多斯人的中国部分成为了
457	a sort of enclosed agricultural ethnically Han space,	一种封闭的农业汉族空间,
458	a space where agriculture could be conducted	农业空间
459	in as intensive a fashion as the ecology made possible.	以生态所能达到的密集的时尚
460	And so, and then of course, in the 16th century,	所以,当然,在16世纪,
461	16th, 17th century is when the New World crops,	16,17世纪是新世界的作物,
462	the maize and potatoes came in.	玉米和马铃薯进来了
463	Those were really amenable to being farmed in this region.	这些人非常愿意在这个地区耕作。
464	Forest, I haven't talked very much about forestry,	森林,我没怎么谈林业
465	but commercial forestry, commercial salt production,	但商业林业,商业盐的生产,
466	commercial production of cotton, all of these things	棉花的商业生产,所有这些东西
467	were transformative in this region	本区域的变革
468	and allowed for a very, very high increase	并允许非常,非常高的增加
469	in the density of the population	在人口密度方面
470	clearly depicted here on this map.	这张地图上有清晰的描述
471	In progress, and this is really, really in progress.	进展中,这是真的,真的进展。
472	This is work I am literally doing this week	这是本周我的工作
473	with a Chinese graduate student from Zhenmin University,	与浙民大学的中国研究生,
474	who is visiting me at Pitt this year, Su Rao.	他今年在皮特拜访我苏拉奥
475	And he and I have begun some new GIS analysis	他和我开始了一些新的GIS分析
476	based on the the Atlas of cultural sites	根据文化遗址地图集
477	in Chinese history.	在中国历史上。
478	And so what you can see here on the right,	所以,你可以看到在这里右边,
479	and this is the Jing River sub basin	这是静江流域
480	is on the right-hand side showing the density	在右侧显示密度
481	county by county of the number of cultural sites.	按县划分的文化遗址数量.
482	So that's a sort of a proxy for development.	因此,这是一种代名词开发。
483	And then on the left, sort of the bottom right	然后在左边, 排序右下
484	of the four slides, the four images of the river basin,	四面滑行河流流域的四面图
485	the likelihood of any particular location	任何特定地点的可能性
486	in the Jing River basin, Jing River sub basin, right?	位于静江流域,静江亚流域,对吗?
487	This is the Jing flows into the way,	这是静流在路上,
488	which flows into the yellow,	流入黄土的,
489	the likelihood of erosion arising	发生侵蚀的可能性
490	from any particular location.	从任何特定地点。
491	And you can see, and there's a really high correlation	你可以看到, 有一个非常高的相关性
492	between some of the places that were most densely settled	在一些最密集的地方之间
493	in the Jing River region and some of the places	在静河地区和一些地方
494	where that would have been the most prone for erosion.	那里最容易被侵蚀
495	And so we're going to continue sort of drilling	所以我们要继续钻探
496	into this data as much as we can over the next few months	在未来几个月里,尽可能多地输入这些数据
497	in order to further extend the analysis	为了进一步扩大分析范围
498	that I began in my book.	我开始在我的书。
499	So I'm switching gears,	所以我换了齿轮
500	and I think I'll go through this very quickly.	我想我会非常迅速地经历这一切。
501	I've alluded to the fact that I did a lot	我是指我做过很多事
502	of data development.	数据开发。
503	I was one of the other things that influenced me	我是其他影响我的东西之一
504	really early on in this research	这么早就开始了
505	was coming across the Huanghe Nian Biao,	正要穿过黄河宁波
506	the Yellow River Annals compiled by Shen Yi in the 1930s,	1930年代沈毅编纂的"黄河年鉴",
507	which is just a list of thousands of events	仅列出数以千计的事件
508	connect with Yellow River history.	连接黄河历史.
509	And this is mostly focused now,	而现在这主要是重点,
510	I'm pivoting toward the downstream part of the story.	我向下游的方向发展
511	So on the upstream, I have data	所以在上游,我有数据
512	about the history of settlements,	关于定居点的历史,
513	the establishment of settlements	建立定居点
514	on the upstream part of the river.	在河的上游地区。
515	I also, beginning with Huanghe Nian Biao,	我也从黄河宁彪开始
516	although extending far beyond that,	虽然远远超出这个范围,
517	also have a database of events	还有一个事件数据库
518	on the lower course of the river.	在河的下游。
519	And from those events,	从那些事件中
520	I was able to create a really complex database.	我建立了一个非常复杂的数据库。
521	And one, again, this is,	一个,再次,这是,
522	wanna acknowledge my database superstar collaborator	想认出我数据库里的超级明星合作者
523	and expert, Ryan Horne.	和专家,瑞安・荷恩。
524	And who is able to run these really complex queries	谁能处理这些非常复杂的问题
525	on the database in order to see some of the patterns	以查看一些图案
526	and some of the surprises.	还有一些惊喜
527	We're also, as a part of this work,	作为这项工作的一部分
528	and here I wanna acknowledge	在这里,我想承认
529	one of my fantastic graduate students here at Pitt,	我在皮特的一个很棒的研究生
530	Sharon Zhang Zhang, who is doing the final work	沙伦·张 Zhang 做最后的工作
531	of creating a gazetteer of locations	创建地点索引
532	that are mentioned anywhere in this material.	材料中的任何内容。
533	That's the final step prior to publishing this,	这是出版前的最后一步
534	which we hope to do in the coming months.	我们希望在今后几个月中这样做。
535	I wanna, with this slide, just kind of note the fact	我想用这张幻灯片, 只是注意到事实
536	that every one of these points in the database,	数据库中的每一个点,
537	entities in the database, locations on a map,	数据库中的实体、地图上的位置、
538	all of these ultimately walk back	所有这些最终都走回来
539	to original primary sources.	到原始原始来源。
540	This is still historical scholarship,	这还是历史奖学金
541	even though my goal is to really scale up	尽管我的目标是真正扩大
542	to thousands of years and the entire river basin.	到几千年和整个河流流域。
543	And just a little bit more information	再多一点信息
544	about what this looks like	关于这个样子
545	from the point of view of the gazetteer.	从地名录的角度来说。
546	So I wanna now pivot to talking	所以我现在想说
547	about the downstream part of the river	在河的下游
548	from ancient times, imperial times to the present.	从古代,帝国时代到现在
549	The challenge of living on the flood plain	生活在洪水平原上的挑战
550	has been the challenge of what to do	一直以来都是如何应对的挑战
551	with all that eroded sediment.	与所有被侵蚀的沉积物。
552	One of the things that I can derive from my database	从我的数据库里可以得到的东西之一
553	is the locations of all of the floods,	是洪水的所有地点,
554	all of the disasters,	所有的灾难,
555	and also all of the acts of river management,	还有河流管理的一切行为,
556	building levees, building drainage canals,	建造河道,建造排水渠,
557	repairing waterworks that have occurred at any time	修复任何时间发生的水利工程
558	as reported in historical sources.	如历史资料所述。
559	And if you just throw them all together on a map,	如果你把它们都放在地图上
560	it looks something like this,	看起来像这样
561	and you can see the way that the flood plain	你可以看到洪水平原的路
562	is this sort of fan, this kind of triangle	是这种扇子,这种三角形
563	of locations of scrutiny	检查地点
564	across all of the historical courses of the river.	横跨整个河段的历史
565	Focusing many of which fan out from the city of Kaifeng.	集中许多来自凯峰市的粉丝
566	Kaifeng is at the western edge of the flood plain.	开丰位于洪泛平原西部边缘.
567	It's the first place that those sediment laden waters	这是第一个沉积在水中的地方
568	appear kind of as they disgorge from the mountains	仿佛他们离山而去,
569	one final time and enter the flood plain.	最后一次进入洪水平原
570	Kaifeng is in a low-lying basin.	开丰位于低洼盆地.
571	This is in part what made it so appealing	这部分就是它吸引人的原因
572	as the capital of the Northern Song	作为北宋的首都
573	because it was so easy to build canals	因为建造运河太容易了
574	into Kaifeng from the south,	从南方进入凯风
575	but it also has made it very, very prone to flooding.	但它也使它非常,非常容易发生洪水。
576	As you can see, this image is from an archeological site,	如你所见,这个图像来自考古遗址,
577	geo-archaeology site.	地质考古学遗址.
578	So this is sort of excavating layers	所以这是一种挖掘层
579	of sediment deposited during floods	洪水期间沉积的沉积物
580	around the site of the historical Kaifeng city wall.	围绕历史上的凯峰城墙遗址.
581	And then derived from my data,	然后根据我的数据
582	the depiction of the many different courses of the river	对河道的描述
583	that have passed through and around the city of Kaifeng	穿过凯峰市和周围
584	and the many floods that affected the region	以及影响该区域的许多水灾
585	right around the city.	环绕城市
586	You can also take that same data	你也可以拿同样的数据
587	and depict it in the form of a timeline.	并以时间线的形式描绘它。
588	And this shows us something really interesting.	这向我们展示了一些非常有趣的东西。
589	One, and of course this is tied to the famous work	一,当然这与著名作品有关
590	many years ago by Tan Shi Xiang,	许多年前,谭世祥,
591	who was the first person to notice	谁是第一个注意到的人
592	that there wasn't much flooding on the Yellow River	黄河没有太多洪水
593	from between the Han and the Song.	从汉人与宋人之间.
594	And my work absolutely reinforces what he discovered.	我的工作绝对加强了他发现的东西
595	So there's a long region of low flooding	因此,有一个很长的地区低洪水
596	that actually ends really	其实结束真的
597	during the Five Dynasties period, the Wudai period,	五朝时期,武帝时期,
598	a little bit before the start of the Song.	略说宋初前.
599	And then this period of the first period	然后第一个时期的这个时期
600	of intensive flooding that occurred during the Song,	发生在宋国时期的洪水,
601	a third period, a second period of intensive flooding	第三个时期,第二个时期的洪水泛滥
602	during the Yuan and Ming.	元和明年间.
603	I want to kind of draw attention also to the fact	我想提醒大家注意这个事实
604	that during the Southern Song and Jin period,	在南宋和晋时期
605	I do not think it's the case that there was not flooding.	我认为没有发生洪水的情况。
606	I think just the opposite.	我认为恰恰相反。
607	I think that there was, in a sense,	我认为,在某种程度上,
608	so much sort of unmanaged river,	如此多的不管理河流,
609	but also so little border crossing	也很少跨越边境
610	that it's just not something that record keepers	这不是什么保存记录者
611	were paying close attention to.	正在密切关注。
612	And then a really interesting, and again,	然后一个真正有趣的, 再次,
613	in part of my work of saying this isn't always a story	在我的作品说这并不总是一个故事
614	about things getting worse and worse,	关于事情越来越糟糕,
615	you can see that there's a really interesting period	你可以看到,有一个非常有趣的时期
616	in the late Ming and Qing	明末清时
617	when there was actually less flooding.	当洪水减少的时候
618	And that, as I'll talk about more in a few minutes,	几分钟后我再谈这个
619	is really an example of very, very effective state policy	真的是非常非常有效的国家政策的例子
620	about flood control,	关于防洪,
621	really effective infrastructure management.	有效的基础设施管理。
622	And that's another story	这是另一个故事
623	that I think is not really always told	我觉得不是一直告诉
624	or put in good perspective.	或树立良好的视角。
625	The dotted line that you can see here	你可以看到的虚线
626	is from a dataset called the Monsoon Asia Drought Atlas.	来源于一个名为"蒙松亚洲干旱地图集"的数据集.
627	And so that depicts from year to year	年复一年的描绘
628	how much rainfall there was.	降雨量是多少。
629	And so another thing that's really interesting	还有一件很有趣的事
630	that you can see is that basically each of these pulses	你可以看到,基本上每个脉搏
631	of significant flooding occurred during a period	期间发生的重大水灾
632	of high rainfall, except during the late Qing.	降雨量大,除了晚清时期
633	That's the first time when the flood history	这是洪水史上第一次
634	and the rainfall history were not really directly correlated	降雨历史并不直接相关
635	with one another.	彼此之间
636	I think I'm going to skip over this slide	我想我会跳过这个幻灯片
637	in the interest of time.	为了时间的利益。
638	Really what I want to zero in on,	我真的想把这事搞砸
639	I'll just say a couple of words really quickly.	我只是说几句话非常快。
640	One is that this shows really vividly on the top slide,	一个是,这显示真正生动地在上部幻灯片,
641	the fact that there was this long, long, long	事实上,有这么长,那么长,那么长
642	reported history prior to the flood era.	报告洪水时代前的历史。
643	In fact, even the floods during the Han,	事实上,连汉族时期的洪水,
644	sort of in the Western Han, Eastern Han transition,	在西汉,东汉时期
645	although they're very politically significant,	虽然它们在政治上很重要,
646	really significant to the larger story of Chinese history,	对于中国历史的更重大的故事来说,
647	they actually were really not numerous	其实他们真的不多
648	by the standards of later imperial times.	根据后来帝国时代的标准
649	The other thing, and I won't sort of go	还有一件事,我不会去的
650	into the whole analysis of this,	在分析这个问题的整个过程中,
651	is that this shows the building of levees	说明这栋楼是...
652	and the percentage of recorded disasters over time.	以及记录的灾害的百分比。
653	This is what you see on the bottom image,	这就是你从底部看到的
654	the percentage of recorded disasters	记录的灾害的百分比
655	that were recorded as being levee breaches.	被记录为 " 犯法行为 " 。
656	That is what this is showing,	这就是这个显示,
657	is that there are certain kinds of things	是有些东西
658	that the river did,	河水确实如此
659	just because rivers sometimes have high water, right?	只是因为河流有时有高水,对不对?
660	That could only be considered as being disasters	那只能被认为是灾难
661	once people started building levees and embankments	一旦人们开始建造堤岸和堤岸
662	and other kinds of water control infrastructure.	和其他类型的水控制基础设施。
663	And so this is really trying to kind of problematize	所以,这是真的尝试有点问题
664	and complicate what we're talking about in the first place	和复杂我们谈论的第一
665	when we even talk about disasters on the river.	当我们甚至谈论河上的灾难。
666	And then again, you can see sort of embedded in this data,	然后,你可以看到某种嵌入在这个数据中,
667	which is explained more fully in the book,	书中更详细地解释了这一点,
668	this period of really effective river management	真正有效的河流管理时期
669	during the 18th century.	18世纪时期
670	And this one again shows the fact	这一次再次表明事实
671	that moisture levels correlate with flooding	水分水平与洪水有关
672	until they don't, until this extraordinary moment	直到他们不这样做, 直到这个非凡的时刻
673	in the Qing, this period from the late,	清朝末年的这个时期
674	almost exactly kind of correlating	几乎完全是那种关系
675	with the years of effective Qing control	与有效清控的年代
676	until the opium war in the mid 19th century,	直到19世纪中叶的鸦片战争
677	that this is the first time ever in history	这是有史以来第一次
678	when the black line,	当黑线,
679	this is a line that represents infrastructure building,	这是一条代表基础设施建设的线,
680	levee repair, levee maintenance, levee building,	列维维修,列维维修,列维建筑,
681	that that black line of water works,	黑线的水工作,
682	maintenance is consistently for over a hundred years,	维修持续100多年,
683	for almost 200 years,	近200年来,
684	there is more water works maintenance	还有更多的水利工程维护
685	than there are disasters.	比有灾难。
686	The disasters are the white lines.	灾为白线.
687	And you can see that in earlier times,	你可以看到,在早期,
688	there's always the number of disasters	总是有灾难的数量
689	and the number of repairs	和修理次数
690	are almost exactly tracking to each other,	几乎完全追踪到对方,
691	but there's always more disaster than repair	但灾难总比修理多
692	until this extraordinary period in the Qing.	直至清朝这一非常时期.
693	And so that's another thing that I focus on a lot	所以这是另一件事,我专注于很多
694	in the book.	在书中。
695	There's this sort of Song era,	有这种宋时代,
696	Northern Song era of massive buildup	北宋时期大规模集结
697	of fortifications on the West Plateau	西高原上的防御工事
698	and the first era of significant river disasters.	以及第一个重大河流灾难的时代
699	And then there's this Qing era	然后是这个清代
700	of extraordinary water works maintenance.	对水利工程进行特别维修。
701	So those are really two big turning points	所以那真的是两个大转折点
702	in the story that I'm telling.	我所讲的故事。
703	This again, another view,	再说一遍另一种观点
704	this is basically the sort of the broad middle period,	这基本上是那种广义的中间时期,
705	the seventh century to the 15th century	七世纪到十五世纪
706	showing that in that period	表明在那个时期
707	before massive water works building,	在大规模水利工程建设之前
708	the number of disasters is always tracking	灾害的数量总是在跟踪
709	to the amount of moisture.	以水分为单位
710	That is people have not yet figured out	这就是人们还没有弄清楚
711	how to have a policy regime	如何建立政策制度
712	and how to do water works construction	以及如何建造水工程
713	that kind of frees life on the flood plain	那种在洪水平原上解放生命
714	from the pulses of wet and dry.	从湿燥之脉.
715	And that's just showing that there's,	那只是显示,有,
716	oh, wait, I guess in the, right, that's right.	哦,等等,我想是的,没错。
717	In the Tang, you can see that even when	在唐人中,即使当
718	there was a very wet period, it was not flooding.	那时很湿,不是洪水
719	In the Northern Song,	北宋时,
720	there was a really high correlation	有一个非常高的关联性
721	between rain and flooding.	在雨和洪水之间
722	And by the Ming, once again, the late Ming,	以明者,复次后明者,
723	that's the early Ming, by the Ming,	这是早期的明, 由明,
724	once again, that correlation between rainfall and floods	降雨量和洪水的关联性
725	was starting to be broken.	开始被打破。
726	So this is another way of telling this sort of long history	所以,这是另一种方式告诉这种漫长的历史
727	of what it's like for people to live along the river.	在河边生活的感觉
728	And I think that sort of reiterates	我认为那种重申
729	what I've been saying already about the 18th century.	我已经说过的18世纪的事
730	So as we move toward the end of this talk,	所以,当我们走向结束这个谈话,
731	I wanna make a couple of points again,	我想再说几句话
732	some of the quotations that have really guided my thinking	一些引言真正指导了我的想法
733	and my philosophy about this river from Gilbert White,	我对吉尔伯特·怀特的河的理念
734	great American hydrologist in the mid 20th century,	20世纪中叶伟大的美国水文学家,
735	this idea that floods are acts of God, right?	洪水是上帝的行为,对吧?
736	Meaning that floods are just natural.	这意味着洪水是自然的。
737	They're about rainfall carrying sediment downstream,	是关于下游的降雨量
738	high water levels,	高水位,
739	sediment settling in river beds that rise and rise.	沉积物沉积在涨落的河床中。
740	That's acts of God,	这是上帝的行为,
741	but that flood losses are largely acts of man.	但洪水损失主要是人类的行为。
742	And so what this means is that until you have	所以,这意味着,直到你有
743	dense populations, until you have levee building,	人口稠密,直到你有斜坡建筑,
744	until you decide that there are regions of human settlement	直到你决定有人类居住区
745	that you are willing in society to sacrifice, right?	你愿意在社会上牺牲,对不对?
746	There's no such thing as a flood loss.	洪灾无所失.
747	And I really wanna draw attention, I think I have there.	我真的想提请注意, 我想我在那里。
748	So this is a map of the waterworks,	这是水厂的地图
749	the Chinco waterworks around Hongza Lake,	洪扎湖附近的钦科水厂
750	which were very, very important	这些都是非常,非常重要的
751	to the maintenance of the Grand Canal.	以维持大运河。
752	And I guess I have not said in this version of the talk,	我想我还没有说在这个版本的谈话,
753	right, why was there such an investment	对,为什么有这样的投资
754	in water work during the Qing?	清朝时期水利工作?
755	The answer is basically to make transportation	答案基本上就是运输
756	on the Grand Canal efficient.	在大运河高效。
757	And this Chinco waterworks was the centerpiece	而这个钦科水厂是中心
758	of that flood control system that protected the Grand Canal.	保护大运河的洪水控制系统
759	And as you can see here,	如你所见
760	and you can see on the historical map,	你可以看到历史地图,
761	and you can also see in the landscape,	你们在大地上也看见了,
762	this was a terrific trip that I took to Hongza Lake	这趟旅行很棒,我去了洪扎湖
763	right before the COVID pandemic began.	就在COVID流行开始前
764	This was the winter of 2019,	这是2019年的冬天,
765	that you can see that there is literally water	你可以看到,有字面上的水,
766	that could rise in the lake during times of high water,	在高水位时会升入湖中
767	that was just disgorged out onto the landscape.	刚刚在地貌上被抹黑了
768	If there were people living and farming in this region,	如果这里有人生活和耕作
769	woe unto them, right?	伤哉他们,对吧?
770	This was where that water would be disgorged	水会从这里消失
771	in order to protect the Grand Canal,	为了保护大运河
772	the interests of the state	国家利益
773	and the interests of transportation	运输的利益
774	between North and South China.	中国南北朝之间.
775	I always want to end my slides with something like this.	我总是想用这样的东西结束我的幻灯片。
776	I always end my talks by moving back	我总是通过搬回来结束我的谈话
777	to the human scale again.	重回人类的高度
778	It's really easy, I think for me,	这真的很简单,我想对我来说,
779	operating at the level of thousands of years of history,	在几千年的历史中,
780	where each of these floods is just a dot on a map,	这些洪水都只是地图上的点
781	each of these levee repairs is just a dot on a map	每一次修墙都只是地图上的点
782	to remember that these are also stories about people,	记住这些也是关于人的故事,
783	that every one of these floods was something	每一次洪水都是个东西
784	that displaced individuals from their home,	那些离家出走的人,
785	that killed people, that made people into refugees,	杀人, 使人们成为难民,
786	that destroyed their livelihood.	摧毁了他们的生计。
787	Each of these acts of levee repair was perilous labor	每一次修堤都是危险的工作
788	by low paid people working in freezing winter temperatures	在寒冷的冬季温度下工作的低收入者
789	because that's when it was raining.	因为那是下雨的时候
790	I mean, that's when it was the most dry	我的意思是,这是最干燥的时候
791	in order to repair the levees.	以修莲华.
792	So I just want to draw our attention a little bit	所以,我只是想引起我们注意一点
793	to the fact that although my work	虽然我的工作
794	is really sort of up at high structures,	有点像高架结构,
795	these are millions of human stories	这些是数百万人类的故事
796	lying below all of those dots on the map.	躺在地图上所有的点下面
797	Again, this has been a book talk.	再说一遍,这是个书谈
798	This is the information about my book	这是关于我的书的资料
799	available through Yale University Press,	可通过耶鲁大学出版社查阅,
800	certainly currently in the midst	肯定在他们中间
801	of being translated into Chinese.	将被翻译成中文。
802	I'm not sure exactly what the timeframe is for that.	我不知道具体的时间框架是什么
803	And then finally, also,	最后,还有,
804	this is all tremendously collaborative work.	这些都是巨大的合作工作。
805	It's work that I cannot complete	我无法完成的工作
806	without people who know how to make databases	没有知道如何建立数据库的人
807	and students who have helped me compile and organize	帮助我整理和组织的学生
808	all of the data that you've seen	所有你见过的数据
809	and people who have helped to guide me on my field trips	以及那些帮助引导我实地考察的人
810	through the territory that I'm interested in.	穿过我感兴趣的领地
811	And so I want to end this talk	所以我想结束这次谈话
812	by acknowledging all of their work.	承认他们的所有工作。
813	So thank you all for your time.	所以,感谢大家的时间。
814	I'm going to stop screen sharing	我要停止分享屏幕
815	and I'm happy to take questions.	我很乐意问问题
816	Terrific.	不错。
817	Thank you so much for that very	非常感谢
818	encyclopedic and fascinating talk.	百科全书和迷人的谈话。
819	Although there, I mean, I just feel like every slide	虽然,我的意思是,我只是感觉像每一个幻灯片
820	we can probably talk for half an hour or more.	我们可以谈半小时或更长时间。
821	And actually, and please for everyone who have questions,	事实上,请所有有问题的人
822	please feel free to type them in the chat box.	请随意在聊天盒里输入
823	I'm going to start with some questions	我先问几个问题
824	that were pre-submitted when folks registered	当人们登记时预先提交的
825	for this program.	为本节目。
826	The first one being,	第一个是,
827	and this is actually linked to one of your earlier slides	这其实是链接到你早先的幻灯片之一
828	that kind of showed pre-song and after song	那种在歌声前和歌声后
829	and the sediment rates in logarithmic scale.	和对数尺度的沉积率。
830	I think that was a question about	我想那是关于
831	why did you decide to study the Yellow River in this way?	你为何决定这样研究黄河?
832	And when did you start paying attention?	你什么时候开始注意的?
833	And how did you come up with the way you approached	你怎么想出来的你接近的方式
834	the study of the history of the Yellow River?	黄河历史研究?.
835	Right.	对
836	So my first book, I mentioned briefly	所以我的第一本书,我简单地提到
837	but I love answering this question.	但我喜欢回答这个问题。
838	My first book, which was based on my PhD dissertation	我的第一本书,根据我的博士论文
839	was dividing the realm in order to govern	为了治国而瓜分疆域
840	the spatial history of the Song State	宋国空间史
841	was used some of these same methods.	也使用了这些相同的方法。
842	So it was also based on data and spatial analysis.	因此它也基于数据和空间分析.
843	And what I was interested in doing in that book was to,	我对那本书的兴趣是
844	I mean, I zeroed in on the fact that during the Song era,	我的意思是,我零入的事实, 在宋时代,
845	Northern and Southern Song,	南北宋时,
846	that the number and location of counties and prefectures,	县和县的数量和地点,
847	so these units of local and regional government	因此这些地方和地区政府单位
848	changed a lot.	变了很多
849	One of the pieces of the Song political toolkit	宋政治工具箱的一块
850	was to found new counties, abolish old counties,	寻找新县,废除旧县,
851	found new prefectures, abolish old prefectures	设立新县,废除旧县.
852	and to sort of constantly be renovating	并且不断更新
853	what I call the political landscape.	我称之为政治景观。
854	And that by doing this same kind of work	做同样的工作
855	that I've just presented here,	我刚刚在这里,
856	by making maps and timelines,	通过绘制地图和时间表,
857	it was possible to see some spatial	可以看到一些空间
858	and temporal patterns in those activities.	以及这些活动的时间模式。
859	And so it was very, very much a book of historical geography	所以它非常,非常一部历史地理学的书
860	but it was about entirely a human created landscape.	但它完全是人类创造的景观
861	And so as I was finishing that book,	当我完成那本书时,
862	I knew that I wanted to do something	我知道我想做点什么
863	that also was about historical geography	这也是关于历史地理
864	and use some of these same data-oriented methods	并使用其中一些以数据为导向的方法。
865	but was more anchored in the sort of ecological world.	但更扎根于生态世界
866	And I had gotten really interested in water.	我对水很感兴趣
867	I was living in a sort of arid	我当时在干旱中生活
868	and unpredictably flooded part of California at the time.	并且无法预料地淹没了当时加州的部分地区.
869	So I was starting to study water history	所以我开始研究水史
870	and think about water history.	考虑一下水史
871	And I did a couple of sort of test experiments	我做了一些实验
872	to see whether I could correlate any of what I knew	看看我能不能把我知道的联系起来
873	about counties and prefectures in the Song	关于宋时的郡县
874	with the big year 1048,	与大年1048,
875	the big year 1048 course change in the Yellow River	大年1048年黄河航线变化
876	and realized that there was a whole story	并意识到有一个整体的故事
877	that I had missed in my first book,	我错过了我的第一本书,
878	that there was a sort of a story of how much water history	有一个故事多少水的历史
879	had affected the distribution of local government	影响了地方政府的分布
880	and population and state power in the Song.	以及宋国的人口和国家权力
881	And that's what kind of got me going	这就是让我去
882	on the project that I presented here.	我在这里介绍的项目。
883	Super, thank you for that very interesting answer.	超级,谢谢你的非常有趣的答案。
884	And we're so glad that it took you to this work.	我们很高兴你能参加这个工作
885	We have a question from the audience	我们有个问题要问观众
886	about what do you think contributed	关于你认为什么贡献
887	to the intensive water control levy building measures	* 强化水控制措施
888	in the Qing dynasty?	在清朝吗?
889	I remembered you alluded to the management of the canal	我记得你提到运河的管理
890	but if you could elaborate on that, that would be great.	但是如果你能解释清楚,那就太好了
891	That's really, I think a lot about the sort of,	这是真的,我想了很多关于那种,
892	there was a lot, maybe over a century of disputation	有很多,也许一个多世纪的争论
893	in the Ming about what to do	明朝时如何处置
894	on the Yellow River floodplain.	在黄河洪水平原上
895	And there was one sort of direction of policy	并且有一个政策方向
896	during the Ming that said, let's build,	明朝说,我们建
897	this is not something that was technologically impossible.	这不是技术上不可能的事情。
898	It's not something that was fiscally impossible.	这不是财政上不可能的事情。
899	Let's build levies, canals, channelize the river,	盖税,渠,引河,
900	make the grand canal predictable,	让大运河可以预测,
901	spend that money and do that thing.	把钱花掉再做那个
902	Which ultimately is what happened during the Qing.	归根结底,就是在清朝时期
903	And so there were people proposing that	所以有人提议
904	as early as the 1500s, late 1400s.	早在1500年代, 后1400年代。
905	And then there was another sort of group of people	然后又出现了另一组人
906	who said, you know what?	谁说,你知道吗?
907	There's all these wetlands,	到处都是湿地,
908	there's all these sort of small canals, shallow tributaries,	这些小运河浅的支流
909	transportation from the South to the North is fine.	从南方到北方的交通很好
910	We can leave things as is, not do massive intervention,	我们可以不做任何事情,不做大规模干预,
911	let the river be the river.	让河流成为河流。
912	What it means is that we have to hire sort of local experts	意思是我们必须雇用本地专家
913	to kind of navigate these barges	来导航这些驳船
914	through this sort of frequently changing	通过这种频繁的变化
915	and dynamic water landscape.	和动态的水面。
916	But we can do that, that's okay, right?	但我们可以做到这一点, 没关系,对不对?
917	And so that second point of view is the one	所以第二个观点就是
918	that was followed during most of the Ming.	明朝大部分时间都遵循了
919	In the late Ming, the other sort of kind of	在明末,另一种类型的
920	high interventionist groups started to become more powerful	高级干预主义团体开始变得更加强大
921	and really in the Qing entirely took hold.	并且真正在清朝完全稳住。
922	And I think often about this,	我经常想这个,
923	that there's not any right again	不再有权利
924	in this sort of anti-declensionist way of thinking,	在这种反德意志主义的思维方式,
925	that there's an alternate history,	有另一个历史,
926	a sort of a path not taken where that Ming idea of	那种没有走的路明的思想
927	let's live with the river,	让我们活在河里,
928	let's live with the fact that there are different amounts	让我们接受一个事实: 有不同的金额
929	of water in the river at different times,	在不同的时候,河里有水,
930	there are different courses in the river at different times,	河里有不同的航道在不同的时间
931	we can have lower populations on the flood plain,	我们可以减少人口在洪水平原,
932	we can honor the local expertise of the people	我们可以尊重当地人民的专长
933	who dwell in this flood plain region,	他们住在这个洪水平原地区,
934	this wetlands region and rely on them	这个湿地区域依靠它们
935	rather than being a giant government	而不是一个巨大的政府
936	that tries to fix everything, right?	试图修复一切,对不对?
937	And so as I said, I think often about what would happen	正如我所说,我经常想会发生什么
938	if that sort of Ming approach to the river	如果那样的明朝河道
939	was the one that continued to be in place	是那个继续维持下去的
940	during the Qing as well.	清时也.
941	Thank you, we had a question submitted by a researcher	谢谢,我们有个研究员提出问题
942	at Dongke Yuan who studies natural science history,	在研究自然科学史的东科元
943	the history of natural sciences.	自然科学史.
944	And he asked about kind of the tributaries	他问到支流的种类
945	of the tributaries of the Yellow River,	黄河支流,
946	for example, with the tributaries of Weihe and Fenhe	例如,与魏河和芬河的支流
947	for thousands of years has created lots of down cutting	几千年来已经创造了许多削减
948	and a very kind of remarkable landscape with deep valleys.	和一种非常显著的景观深谷。
949	Why do you think that is?	为什么?
950	Right, well, and that's what I had one slide	对,我只有一张幻灯片
951	of my very, very most recent work,	关于我最近的工作,
952	which is looking on the Jinghe Basin, right?	在静河流域,对吧?
953	The Jinghe, which is the tributary of the Weihe,	静河是淮河的支流
954	which is the tributary of the Huanghe, right?	这是黄河的支流,对吧?
955	And so looking at this sort of sub-sub basin of the Jinghe	看着静河的这种次子盆地
956	and looking and of course,	看,当然,
957	only with modern satellite data	只有现代卫星数据
958	because we live in the modern world, right?	因为我们生活在现代世界,对吧?
959	Trying to look at what the contemporary terrain	试着看看当代的地形
960	in the Jinghe region, in the Jinghe Basin looks like.	在静河地区, 静河流域看起来像。
961	And one of the things I'm working	和一件事,我在工作
962	with this super talented grad student	和这个优秀的研究生
963	who's visiting with me at Pitt this year,	他今年来皮特找我
964	one of the things that we're going to do	我们要做的一件事
965	with the Wenwu Dituji is to look at where the locations were	与文武迪图吉是查看地点
966	of historical settlements.	历史定居点。
967	Actually, we're not gonna necessarily get this	其实,我们不一定会得到这个
968	from the Wenwu Dituji	从文武迪图吉
969	because that's based on excavated information,	因为那是基于挖掘出的信息,
970	but with a combination of historical gazetteers,	但结合历史地名录,
971	Difangzhi,历史文献,
972	the Wenwu Dituji, we're going to figure out	文武的迪图吉,我们会想出办法的
973	where settlements in the past were located in places	过去定居的地方
974	that no longer can support settlements.	无法再支持定居点。
975	And so this will allow us to kind of work backwards	这样我们就可以反向工作了
976	from contemporary erosion maps, right?	从当代侵蚀图,对不对?
977	That show these sort of deep and narrow valleys	显示这些深而狭窄的山谷
978	that the question referred to	问题提到的
979	and to figure out whether that is always	并找出这是否总是
980	what the terrain looked like or whether in the past,	地形看起来如何或者在过去,
981	we know that there were farms, settlements, springs,	我们知道那里有农场,定居点,泉水,
982	tributaries, routes of transportation	支流、运输路线
983	in places that now can no longer support them.	现在无法再支持他们的地方
984	So that really exactly gets at the question	所以,这真的得到准确的问题
985	of my current research.	目前的研究。
986	That's amazing.	这是惊人的。
987	And going back to one of the earlier questions	回到以前的问题
988	about how you started this research	你是如何开始这个研究的
989	and the Song Dynasty, all the kind of migrations	和宋朝,各种迁徙
990	and the moving and building and destruction of prefectures	以及各省的迁移、建设和破坏;
991	and all of that.	这一切。
992	In the work that you have done so far,	在你迄今所做的工作中
993	if there's a way to characterize how much of it	如果有办法描述它有多少
994	is the river shaping where people are settling	是人们定居的河流
995	and settling for agriculture, tooling the land,	并定居于农业,以工具土地,
996	using the land versus how much people are shaping the floods,	利用土地和多少人正在形成洪水,
997	the Yellow River, the direction, the levees.	黄河,方向,河堤.
998	Where are you seeing the balance	你在哪里看到平衡点
999	or what's the percentage of one affecting the other?	或者一个影响另一个的百分比是多少?
1000	Or is it kind of a constant evolution	还是一种不断的进化
1001	of sometimes it's more nature	有时候更自然
1002	and sometimes it's more about policies and human actions?	有时它更涉及政策和人类行动?
1003	Right, that's a terrific question.	好吧,这是一个很好的问题。
1004	And if I could find a way to sort of quantify it,	如果我能找到一个方法来量化它,
1005	which it sounds like is what the question is looking at,	这听起来像是问题所在,
1006	that would be really interesting.	那会很有趣
1007	But I think in some ways it's unquantifiable.	但我认为在某些方面是无法量化的。
1008	I mean, as the end of the question sort of implies,	我的意思是,正如问题的结束那种暗示,
1009	humans, I guess part of one of the philosophies	人类,我猜是哲学的一部分
1010	of environmental history as a field	将环境历史作为一个领域
1011	is that humans and human activity, human policy,	人类和人类活动,人类政策,
1012	human society is not outside of nature.	人类社会并不在自然之外。
1013	It's not separate from the landscape.	与风景不相离.
1014	And so it's not like here are people and here is nature,	所以这里不像是人这里就是自然
1015	what happens when you put them together,	当你把它们拼在一起时会怎样
1016	instead it's saying, here's one ecosystem.	而是说,这里有一个生态系统。
1017	It includes humans and their roads and cities and farms	包括人类及其道路城市和农场
1018	and ambitions and settlements.	以及野心和定居点。
1019	And it includes water and dirt and animals and rainfall.	它包括水和泥土以及动物和降雨。
1020	And that what you seek to study	你试图学习
1021	as an environmental historian is how the landscape,	作为一个环境历史学家景观是如何,
1022	the whole landscape and the whole ecosystem evolves,	整个地貌和整个生态系统演化,
1023	thinking about humans as very significant landscape agents,	认为人类是非常重要的景观代理人,
1024	but not as something separate from the landscape.	但不是和风景区分开来
1025	And that doesn't mean, I mean,	这并不意味着,我的意思是,
1026	as modern climate scientists,	作为现代气候科学家,
1027	contemporary climate scientists do,	当代气候科学家确实
1028	it's now possible to look at any individual storm	现在有可能看到任何单个风暴
1029	and to say, okay, a storm in this location	并说,好吧, 风暴在这个位置
1030	at this time of this magnitude	此时此刻
1031	would have been almost impossible to occur	几乎不可能发生
1032	until human climate change, right?	直到人类气候变化,对不对?
1033	And I think it is possible, it's plausible.	我认为这是可能的,这是可信的。
1034	I think some of this,	我觉得有些事情
1035	the reason why that work that Tan Xixiang did	谭雪香之所以这么做
1036	many decades ago in which I'm now sort of amplifying	几十年前,我正在扩展
1037	and uplifting this recognition	提高这种认识
1038	that there were almost no recorded floods	几乎没有洪灾记录
1039	until the 10th century, late ninth century, right?	直到10世纪,9世纪末,对不对?
1040	That that represents one version	这代表一个版本
1041	of what the floodplain ecosystem was like.	淹没的生态系统是什么样子的。
1042	And then this frequently flooded version of the ecosystem	然后这个经常淹没生态系统的版本
1043	was something different and reflects the role	是不同的东西反映了角色
1044	of humans as landscape agents.	人类作为风景剂。
1045	Thank you.	谢谢
1046	And if you don't mind,	如果你不介意的话,
1047	we have a last question from the audience.	我们还有最后一个问题要问
1048	Would you like to share the experience	你们想分享一下吗?
1049	of how you select and cull reliable data	如何选择和存储可靠数据
1050	as well as Chinese, you know, not even your first language.	以及中文,你知道, 甚至连你的第一语言。
1051	How do you do that?	你怎么做到的?
1052	Right, I'm really, really lucky	对,我真的很幸运
1053	and feel honored and humbled always	永远感到荣幸和谦卑
1054	that my ability to create these databases	我建立这些数据库的能力
1055	relies on the previous publications of works	依赖以往的作品出版物
1056	exclusively by Chinese scholars,	专由中国学者
1057	whether that is drawing on something	是否借鉴了什么
1058	like the historical Atlas of China	如中国历史地图集
1059	or the Atlas of cultural objects	或文物地图集
1060	or whether it's like the right.	或者它是否像右边。
1061	All of those works are remarkable accomplishments	所有这些作品都是了不起的成就
1062	by Chinese scholars who have combed	由中国学者梳理
1063	through thousands and thousands	数以千计
1064	and thousands of pages of historical documents	和数千页历史文件
1065	and compiled them into maps,	并把他们编成地图,
1066	and into lists and tables and published charts.	并列入清单、表格和已公布的图表。
1067	And my database work is really just in a sense,	我的数据库工作只是某种意义上的
1068	just kind of humbly following in their footsteps,	只是那种谦卑的跟随在他们的脚步,
1069	taking that published work and reorganizing it	把出版的作品拿来重组
1070	into a format that is capable of being analyzed	成为能够分析的格式
1071	by using computational methods.	使用计算方法。
1072	But really it's just me taking published existing work	但实际上,这只是我拿出版的现有作品
1073	by extraordinary Chinese scholars	中国杰出学者
1074	and figuring out what I can do with it	并想出我能用它做什么
1075	if I use computational methods.	如果我使用计算方法。
1076	Fabulous.	名华严.
1077	Well, thank you so much.	非常感谢
1078	And with that, we're gonna wrap up today's talk.	有了这个,我们就结束今天的谈话。
1079	Really grateful for your time	非常感谢你的时间
1080	and the energy you've brought to this discussion.	和你给这次讨论带来的能量
1081	I'm really hopeful about the,	我真的对...
1082	I'm really looking forward to the Chinese publication	我真的很期待中国的出版
1083	of your book and I would love to stay in touch for that.	我愿意和你们保持联系
1084	And as a custom of our Yale Center Beijing Talks,	作为耶鲁中心北京会谈的习惯
1085	what we like to do at the end of each talk	每次谈话结束时我们喜欢做什么
1086	is ask for those of you who are able	求你们中能者,
1087	to turn on your cameras, to turn them on	打开相机,打开相机
1088	so we can take a group shot and you can be unmuted	这样我们就可以打一枪,你就可以解闷了
1089	to say thank you to Professor Mostern.	感谢莫斯特恩教授
1090	So I'm gonna count down from five	所以,我数到五
1091	and then we'll take a quick group shot.	然后我们一起快速拍摄。
1092	And I say Yale or Pitt will still get a smile.	我说耶鲁或皮特还是会笑的
1093	Thank you.	谢谢
1094	Thank you so much to everyone for all the great-	非常感谢大家的...
1095	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1096	And thank you to everyone for all.	感谢大家
1097	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1098	Thank you.	谢谢
1099	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1100	Thank you.	谢谢
1101	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1102	Thank you all.	谢谢大家
1103	Thank you.	谢谢
1104	Thank you all.	谢谢大家
1105	Thank you.	谢谢
1106	Thank you so much.	非常感谢
1107	Thank you.	谢谢
1108	Thank you so much.	非常感谢

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