当我们在纪念反法西斯战争胜利时真正要铭记什么？

发布于 2022-05-12 · 时长 1:02:42

字幕摘录

时间	英文	中文
0:04	Hello.	哈罗
0:05	Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening to everyone, especially to our speaker, Dr. Alex K joining us from Germany.	早上好,下午好,或晚上好大家,特别是我们的演讲者, Alex K博士从德国加入我们。
0:16	Welcome to this Yale Center Beijing and Yale University Press Find Your Next Great Read event.	欢迎来到耶鲁中心北京和耶鲁大学出版社寻找你的下一个伟大阅读活动。
0:23	And today we're featuring Dr. Alex case groundbreaking new book called Empire of Destruction, a history of Nazi mass killing.	今天我们以亚历克斯博士案为主角, 开创性的新书"毁灭帝国", 纳粹大规模屠杀的历史。
0:35	I am Carol Lee Rafferty, an executive director of Yale Center Beijing, and also a Yale College alumna.	我是卡罗尔·李·拉费蒂北京耶鲁中心执行董事也是耶鲁大学校友
0:43	Before I introduce our distinguished guest, I would like to say a little introduction about the Yale Center Beijing founded in 2014, the Yale Center Beijing is Yale University's only university wide center outside of the US.	在介绍尊敬的嘉宾之前,我想简单介绍一下2014年成立的耶鲁北京中心,耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁大学唯一的美国以外的大学宽中心.
1:02	Throughout the year, we host events such as these, almost every other day, convening thought leaders from academia, business, politics, culture and technology to discuss the most important issues facing our world.	在整个一年中,我们几乎每隔一天就主办这样的活动,召集学术界、商界、政界、文化界和技术界的思想领袖讨论我们世界面临的最重要的问题。
1:19	Today, thanks to the universe, Yale University Press, and the Yale Center Beijing's program director Devon Lau.	今天,感谢宇宙,耶鲁大学出版社,耶鲁中心北京计划主任德文劳.
1:26	We are delighted to be able to invite Dr. Alex K to speak about his book.	我们很高兴能够邀请Alex K博士来谈他的书。
1:32	After the talk will open up the floor for q amp a Dr. Alex K is senior lecturer in history at the University of Potsdam and lifetime fellow of the Royal Historical Society.	在演讲之后,为q anp打开了地板 Alex K博士是波茨坦大学历史高级讲师也是皇家历史学会的终身研究员。

展开字幕全文（385 条）

序号	英文	中文
1	Hello.	哈罗
2	Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening to everyone, especially to our speaker, Dr. Alex K joining us from Germany.	早上好,下午好,或晚上好大家,特别是我们的演讲者, Alex K博士从德国加入我们。
3	Welcome to this Yale Center Beijing and Yale University Press Find Your Next Great Read event.	欢迎来到耶鲁中心北京和耶鲁大学出版社寻找你的下一个伟大阅读活动。
4	And today we're featuring Dr. Alex case groundbreaking new book called Empire of Destruction, a history of Nazi mass killing.	今天我们以亚历克斯博士案为主角, 开创性的新书"毁灭帝国", 纳粹大规模屠杀的历史。
5	I am Carol Lee Rafferty, an executive director of Yale Center Beijing, and also a Yale College alumna.	我是卡罗尔·李·拉费蒂北京耶鲁中心执行董事也是耶鲁大学校友
6	Before I introduce our distinguished guest, I would like to say a little introduction about the Yale Center Beijing founded in 2014, the Yale Center Beijing is Yale University's only university wide center outside of the US.	在介绍尊敬的嘉宾之前,我想简单介绍一下2014年成立的耶鲁北京中心,耶鲁北京中心是耶鲁大学唯一的美国以外的大学宽中心.
7	Throughout the year, we host events such as these, almost every other day, convening thought leaders from academia, business, politics, culture and technology to discuss the most important issues facing our world.	在整个一年中,我们几乎每隔一天就主办这样的活动,召集学术界、商界、政界、文化界和技术界的思想领袖讨论我们世界面临的最重要的问题。
8	Today, thanks to the universe, Yale University Press, and the Yale Center Beijing's program director Devon Lau.	今天,感谢宇宙,耶鲁大学出版社,耶鲁中心北京计划主任德文劳.
9	We are delighted to be able to invite Dr. Alex K to speak about his book.	我们很高兴能够邀请Alex K博士来谈他的书。
10	After the talk will open up the floor for q amp a Dr. Alex K is senior lecturer in history at the University of Potsdam and lifetime fellow of the Royal Historical Society.	在演讲之后,为q anp打开了地板 Alex K博士是波茨坦大学历史高级讲师也是皇家历史学会的终身研究员。
11	He's a leading scholar on the Third Reich and German history and has published a number of award winning books on Nazi Germany.	他是第三帝国和德国历史方面的著名学者,并出版了一些关于纳粹德国的获奖书籍.
12	Dr. Case Empire destruction is the first comparative and comprehensive history of Nazi mass killing, which shows how genocidal policies were crucial to the regime strategy to win the war.	Case Empire博士的毁灭是纳粹大规模屠杀的第一个比较和全面的历史,表明种族灭绝政策对于政权赢得战争的战略是多么关键。
13	This book brings together the history of the Holocaust and genocidal policies against other population groups in a single analytical frame.	这本书将大屠杀的历史和针对其他人口群体的种族灭绝政策放在一个单一的分析框架内。
14	While the participants will be muted during Dr. Case talk, I'd like to welcome our zoom participants to type in your questions into the chat box throughout the course of the talk.	虽然在Case博士的谈话中参与者会沉默不语但我想欢迎我们的放大参与者在整个谈话过程中把你的问题输入聊天箱
15	And when the q amp a session starts, I will unmute you so you can ask your questions in turn.	当q AMP开始一个会话, 我会解禁你这样你就可以反过来问你的问题。
16	And to the extent possible, we would love to have you switch on your cameras to make this talk as interactive as possible.	并尽可能地,我们希望你开机在你的摄像头使这个谈话尽可能互动。
17	And without further ado, let's welcome Dr. Alex K. Thank you very much.	别再说了,欢迎Alex K博士非常感谢
18	Thank you very much, currently for the extremely kind introduction.	非常感谢您,目前,我们做了非常友好的介绍。
19	Also thank you to the Yale Center Beijing for the kind invitation, I'm very pleased to be able to give this paper.	同时感谢耶鲁北京中心的亲切邀请,我非常高兴能给这篇论文.
20	So, as probably everybody in the audience knows, research into Nazi Germany, the Holocaust and the Second World War has produced enough books to fill not just one library but multiple libraries.	因此,也许观众中的每个人都知道,对纳粹德国,大屠杀和第二次世界大战的研究已经产生了足够的书籍,不仅可以填充一个图书馆,还可以填充多个图书馆.
21	And, and this fact alone requires already should require anyone embarking on a new book on these topics to think carefully about whether it will add anything to our, our already extensive knowledge of the period, whether it will offer something new or pro	而这一事实本身就要求任何开始写一本关于这些议题的新书的人都要仔细思考它是否会增加我们这个时期的广泛知识
22	interpretation of the events and my latest book, which we're here to discuss empire of destruction, a history of Nazi mass killing fulfills these requirements because it represents, as was mentioned in the introduction.	对事件的解释和我最新的书,我们在这里讨论破坏帝国, 纳粹大规模屠杀的历史满足了这些要求因为它代表, 正如在导言中提及。
23	Perhaps surprisingly, the first time that's a single volume addresses all major victim groups of Nazi mass killing together.	也许令人惊讶的是,第一次这个单卷涉及纳粹大规模屠杀的所有主要受害者群体
24	Now, the Nazi regime killed approximately 13 million civilians and other non combatants in deliberate policies of mass murder.	现在,纳粹政权在蓄意的大规模屠杀政策中杀害了大约1 300万平民和其他非战斗人员。
25	Almost all of them during the war in Europe from 1939 to 1945 and the vast majority between mid 1941 and spring 1945 that is in the space of less than four years.	在1939年至1945年的欧洲战争期间,他们几乎全都是,在1941年中至1945年春这段时间里,绝大多数都在不到四年的时间内。
26	These systematic killing programs targeted the following groups and so you don't just have to listen to me tell you them I'm going to actually share my screen so you can see a list of these groups, because these, these seven groups are the subject of my b	这些系统化的杀戮计划针对以下团体, 所以你不必只听我的告诉你,我实际上要分享我的屏幕, 这样你可以看到这些团体的列表, 因为这些,这七个团体是我的书的主题。
27	So just one moment.	就一会儿
28	So you should all be able to see that.	所以你们应该都能看到这一点。
29	List entitled major victim groups of Nazi mass killing campaigns.	题为纳粹大规模杀戮运动的主要受害者群体名单。
30	So, they are the seven groups are the mentally and physically disabled within Germany initially, and later in the occupied territories, the Polish ruling classes and elites.	因此,他们是七个群体,他们是德国境内的精神和身体残疾者,最初,后来是被占领土、波兰统治阶级和精英。
31	Of course, Jews across the length and breadth of Europe captive and unarmed Red Army soldiers, the Soviets urban population, the civilians in primarily rural areas who fell victim to preventive terror and reprisals especially in the Soviet Union, Yugoslav	当然,在整个欧洲, 被俘的和手无寸铁的红军士兵, 苏联的城市人口, 主要是乡村地区的平民, 他们成为预防性恐怖和报复的受害者,
32	Greece, and Poland, and Europe's Roma minority.	希腊、波兰和欧洲的罗姆人少数民族。
33	Now, for all the differences in the nature of these victims and in some cases the ways in which they were murdered.	现在,由于这些受害者性质的不同,在某些情况下,他们被谋杀的方式不同。
34	They had something fundamental in common.	他们有一个基本的共同点。
35	It's no coincidence that all these seven major Nazi killing programs took place during the war years.	这七大纳粹杀害计划都发生在战争年代,绝非偶然.
36	The commonality shared by the different victim groups is closely related to the military conflict.	不同受害者群体的共同性与军事冲突密切相关。
37	While each of the killing programs possessed a racial and indeed racist component, the logic of war was central to the rationale for targeting each and every one of the victim groups.	虽然每个杀戮方案都有种族和种族主义成分,但战争逻辑是针对每个受害群体的理由的核心。
38	As they were regarded by the Nazi regime, in one way or another, as a potential threat to Germany's ability to fight and ultimately win a war for domination in Europe.	由于他们被纳粹政权以这样或那样的方式视为对德国在欧洲作战并最终赢得统治战争的能力的潜在威胁.
39	So of course this view was informed and justified by Nazi racial thinking.	因此,这种观点当然被纳粹种族思想所启发和证明是正当的。
40	So it's difficult, if not impossible, to separate German wartime strategy from Nazi genocidal racial policies.	因此,将德国的战时战略与纳粹的种族灭绝种族政策区分开来是困难的,甚至不可能的.
41	Indeed, one might go so far as to argue, and indeed I do in my book, that for Nazi Germany genocide itself and mass killing policies in general constituted a form of warfare.	确实,人们甚至可以说,而且我的确在我的书中认为,对纳粹德国来说,种族灭绝本身和大规模屠杀政策总的来说是一种战争形式。
42	Therefore, the first of three main theses of my book runs as follows.	因此,我书的三项主要论文中的第一项如下。
43	Should be able to see that now on my second slide.	应该可以在我的第二张幻灯片上看到这个
44	The mass murder of civilians and other noncombatants was an actual strategy, an actual German strategy for winning the war.	大规模屠杀平民和其他非战斗人员是一项实际战略,是德国赢得战争的实际战略。
45	It was not a side show, or worse, a distraction from the real war efforts, the military efforts, it was actually a strategy for winning the war.	这不是一场侧展,或者更糟糕的是, 分散了对真正的战争努力,军事努力的注意力, 它实际上是赢得战争的策略。
46	The disabled in Germany, for example, was seen as undermining the health and vitality of the German nation in wartime, while the disabled in the occupied territories were viewed as rivals for food and accommodation.	例如,德国的残疾人被认为在战时破坏了德国民族的健康和活力,而被占领土上的残疾人则被视为食物和住宿的对手。
47	The Polish ruling classes and elites were murdered as pillars of Polish national identity and potential focal points for resistance to the German occupation.	波兰统治阶级和精英被谋杀,成为波兰民族认同的支柱和抵抗德国占领的潜在焦点.
48	As alleged leaders and revolutionaries pulling the strings behind the scenes, Jews everywhere were believed to pose a threat to the very existence of the German people.	由于被指称的领导人和革命者在幕后操纵,各地的犹太人被认为对德国人民的生存本身构成威胁.
49	Soviet prisoners of war and urban dwellers were regarded as direct competitors of German troops and the German homefront for precious food supplies.	苏联战俘和城市居民被视为德国军队的直接竞争者和德国珍贵食物供应的故乡.
50	Rural populations in Eastern and Southeast Europe were suspected of aiding and abetting partisans.	东欧和东南欧的农村人口涉嫌协助和教唆游击队员。
51	And last but not least, rumour, whether itinerant or sedentary, were considered to be potential spies and a general factor of destabilisation behind German lines.	最后但并非最不重要的是,谣言,无论是流动还是定居,都被认为是潜在的间谍,也是德国战线背后破坏稳定的普遍因素.
52	So in view alone of this intertwinement of war on the one hand and extermination on the other, it makes a great deal of sense to consider the different strands of Nazi mass killing together, rather than in isolation from one another, as has mainly been th	因此,单从战争与灭绝的这种交错性来看,把纳粹大规模屠杀的不同方面放在一起考虑,而不是彼此孤立,这是非常有道理的,这在至今发表的有关这个主题的著作中主要是如此.
53	So I'll just stop sharing my screen there for a moment.	所以我就不再在那里分享我的屏幕了
54	Clearly, these mass killing campaigns of the years 1939 to 1945 had a prehistory.	显然,这些1939年至1945年的大规模杀戮运动是史前的。
55	What made the National Socialists, in my view, the most radical political movement to gain power in modern European history?	我认为,是什么使国家社会主义者成为现代欧洲史上最激进的政治运动来取得权力?
56	What made them believe that they had the right to eliminate so many human beings?	是什么让他们相信他们有权消灭这么多人?
57	Well, they were convinced that some groups of people with particular characteristics, whether religious, cultural, racial or physical, were unalterably inferior to other groups.	他们相信,某些具有特殊特征的群体,无论是宗教、文化、种族还是身体,都无可改变地低于其他群体。
58	Now, of course, this was by no means a concoction of the National Socialists.	当然,这绝不是国家社会主义者的阴谋。
59	In their case, however, this racist ideology was combined with an extreme form of ethnic nationalism, directed not only outwards, but also inwards, be it against political opponents, those considered antisocial or Wexshi, Roma, or especially Jews.	然而,在他们的案件中,这种种族主义意识形态与一种极端形式的种族民族主义相结合,不仅针对外向,而且针对内向,无论是针对政治对手,还是被认为是反社会或Wexshi,罗姆人,还是特别是犹太人.
60	And in addition, a radical will to recast society in accordance with their own vision.	此外,还有一种激进的意志,即按照自己的愿景重新塑造社会.
61	The ultimate ideological aim of the Nazi movement was this to secure the domination of what it regarded as a purified racially superior national and ethnic community.	纳粹运动的最终意识形态目标是确保它所认为的纯洁的种族优越民族和族裔社区的统治。
62	Now, I think, looking back on this with hindsight, it's tempting for us to dismiss Nazi ideology as irrational as the product of delusional paranoia, pseudoscience or a crisis of meaning.	现在,我想,回顾一下事后发现, 它的诱惑我们将纳粹意识形态视为非理性的产物像妄想妄想,伪科学或意义危机。
63	From the perspective of those who devised and advocated it, however, Nazi racial doctrine was anything but irrational.	然而,从那些制定和鼓吹纳粹种族理论的人的角度来看,这完全是非理性的。
64	Indeed, in the context of the war, the National Socialists developed their own inexorable logic of mass murder.	实际上,在战争背景下,国家社会主义者发展了他们自己不可阻挡的大规模屠杀逻辑。
65	Now, although National Socialist ideology had many sources and influences, it was also a product of specific circumstances.	现在,虽然国家社会主义思想有许多来源和影响,但它也是具体情况的产物.
66	Military collapse and capitulation in the First World War were followed not only by the confiscation of those colonies Germany had managed to obtain since 1884, but also by the separation of substantial territory from the nation state itself and the Germa	在第一次世界大战中军事崩溃和投降之后,德国不仅没收了自1884年以来获得的殖民地,而且还将大量领土与民族国家本身和与它一起生活的德国公民分开。
67	And it was in this context that a radical ethnicization occurred that led to the breakthrough of an ethnic nationalist conception of citizenship, which in turn became an instrument of revisionist policy in the years after the First World War.	正是在这一背景下,激进的种族化导致了民族民族主义公民概念的突破,这反过来又在第一次世界大战后的几年中成为修正主义政策的工具.
68	So, in many ways, the key to understanding and explaining the vision that Nazi ideology had of society and the violence it spawned is this to be found in the First World War, its outcome, and above all, societal perceptions of this experience in Germany i	因此,在许多方面,理解和解释纳粹意识形态对社会的愿景及其引发的暴力的关键在于第一次世界大战的结果,最重要的是,德国本身对这种经历的社会认识。
69	And according to Sebastian Hafner, who was one of the most perceptive contemporary commentators on National Socialism, these war years 1914 to 1918 later became, quote, the positive underlying vision of Nazism, unquote.	而据塞巴斯蒂安·哈夫纳(英语:Sebastian Hafner),他是对国家社会主义最有洞察力的当代评论家之一,1914年到1918年的这些战争年代后来成为了纳粹主义的积极基础愿景,未引文.
70	Immediately after the First World War ended scapegoats were a source for Germany's defeat, resulting in the stabbing the back myth of a betrayal by Jews, communists and pacifists on the home front.	第一次世界大战结束后,替罪羊立即成为德国战败的源头,导致犹太人,共产主义者和和平主义者在家乡战线上刺杀背面的背叛神话.
71	The defeat and right wing rationalizations for it bred a traumatic fear in Germany of internal instability in times of war and upheaval.	其失败和右翼合理化在德国造成了战争和动荡时期内部不稳定的创伤性恐惧。
72	Lessons were drawn from the constantly invoked crisis of 1918, a repetition was to be avoided at all costs.	从1918年不断援引的危机中吸取了教训,应不惜一切代价避免重蹈覆辙。
73	So if I could just share my screen again for you.	所以,如果我能再次分享我的屏幕给你。
74	This is the second of the three main feces of my new book.	这是我新书的三大粪便中的第二部.
75	That's a repetition of the crisis of 1918 was to be avoided at all costs in a future war.	这是1918年危机的重复,在未来的战争中应不惜一切代价避免.
76	This of course called for radical preventive measures, whatever was deemed necessary by the German leadership was also regarded as legitimate.	这当然要求采取激进的预防措施,德国领导人认为必要的任何措施也被认为是合法的。
77	Thus, in wartime, all real and prospective enemies, whether ideological opponents, racial undesirables, those considered unproductive, worthless or a burden, and other potential dissidents were to be removed and eliminated with the girl.	因此,在战时,所有真正的和未来的敌人,无论是意识形态的反对者、种族的不受欢迎者、那些被认为没有价值、毫无价值或负担的人,以及其他潜在的持不同政见者,都将与女孩一起被清除。
78	On the one hand of preventing a recurrence of the defeat and turmoil of 1918 and 19, and on the other hand of purifying and strengthening German society and later a German dominated Europe in the name of the National Socialist Utopia.	一方面是为了防止1918年和19年的战败和动乱的复发,另一方面是为了净化和加强德国社会,后来又以国家社会主义乌托邦的名义成为德国统治的欧洲.
79	So, this then is the second of the three main feces of my book.	因此,这是我书中三大粪便中的第二个。
80	As I mentioned at the start of my paper, Nazi Germany killed approximately 1313 million people in deliberate policies of mass murder in the space of less than six years between summer 1939 and late spring 1945.	正如我在论文开头提到的那样,纳粹德国在1939年夏天至1945年春末不到六年的时间内,在蓄意的大规模屠杀政策中杀害了大约1.33亿人。
81	Now, as should have become clear already these were not casualties of war, resulting from bombing raids, military hostilities and general privation, but victims of premeditated mass murder targeted as part of Germany's strategy for winning a global confli	现在,应该已经清楚的是,这些不是由于轰炸袭击、军事敌对行动和普遍贫困而造成的战争伤亡,而是作为德国赢得全球冲突战略的一部分,蓄意大规模屠杀的受害者。
82	So I'm going to share my screen again and show you some figures now what we're actually talking about in terms of the individual groups.	我将再次分享我的屏幕, 并给你们展示一些数字, 现在,我们实际上在谈论单个群体。
83	So I can hope you can see that it's rather a full table with in the left hand column mass the mass killing campaign and the targeted victim group in the middle column the total number of victims in each group, and then the absolute figure at the bottom.	所以,我希望你能看到,它是一个完整的表格, 左手的柱子弥撒大规模杀戮运动和中间的目标群体每一个群体中的受害者总数, 然后是底部的绝对数字。
84	And then in the right column, the number of victims in the German occupied Soviet territory is broken down according to group.	然后在右栏,德国占领的苏维埃领土上的受害者人数按组别分列.
85	So, as you can see in the context of the seven major killing campaigns, Nazi Germany intentionally killed 300,000 mentally and physically disabled people, up to 100,000 members of the Polish ruling classes and elites.	因此,正如你们在七大杀戮运动中看到的,纳粹德国故意杀害了30万身心残障者,多达10万波兰统治阶级成员和精英.
86	Approximately 5.8 million European Jews, 200,000 European Roma, at least 2 million residents of Soviet cities, up to 3.3 million Soviet prisoners of war, making them the second largest victim group of Nazi mass murder after the European Jews.	约580万欧洲犹太人,20万欧洲罗姆人,至少200万苏联城市居民,多达330万苏联战俘,成为仅次于欧洲犹太人的纳粹大屠杀第二大受害者群体.
87	And around 1 million unarmed civilians in primarily rural areas during preventive terror operations and reprisals in the occupied territories.	在被占领土的预防性恐怖行动和报复期间,主要在农村地区约有100万手无寸铁的平民。
88	In addition to another 185,000 civilian residents of one single city, namely Warsaw in the wake of the Warsaw uprising of 1944 and its brutal suppression.	除了在1944年华沙起义及其残酷镇压之后,一个单一城市,即华沙另外185,000名平民居民外.
89	In terms of methods, starvation, shooting and gassing in that order with the preferred Nazi killing methods, substantial numbers of disabled people, Jews, Roma and Soviet POWs felt victim to each of these three methods.	在方法、饥饿、射击和以纳粹杀人为主的毒气方面,大量残疾人、犹太人、罗姆人和苏联战俘认为这三种方法中每一种方法都有受害者。
90	This is one example of how many of the killing operations worked on parallel lines.	这个例子说明有多少杀戮行动平行进行。
91	And in addition to the three principle killing methods that are mentioned starvation, shooting and gassing numerous other victims were stabbed or beaten to death, drowned, hanged, burned alive, or given lethal injections.	此外,除了提到饥饿的三项主要杀戮方法外,枪击和毒气还刺伤或殴打了许多其他受害者,溺死、绞死、活活烧死或注射致命的疫苗。
92	Indeed, if we factor in the hundreds of thousands of people who between 1933 and 1945 were executed following mock trials by Nazi courts, worked, beaten or tortured to death in concentration camps, or shot on German soil during the final months of the war	确实,如果我们把1933年至1945年期间在纳粹法庭模拟审判后被处决的数十万人计算在内,或者在集中营工作、被殴打或被折磨致死,或者在战争的最后几个月在德国领土上被枪决,因为凶手周围的网被收紧,
93	then the total number of civilians under the noncombatants who fell victim to premeditated murder by Nazi perpetrators actually approaches 14 million.	然后,非战斗人员下的平民总数实际上接近1 400万,他们成为纳粹罪犯蓄意谋杀的受害者。
94	So, as you'll be able to see from the right hand column of the table that around two thirds of the 13 million victims addressed in my book were killed on Soviet territory.	所以,从桌子右侧的栏目可以看到,我书中提到的1300万受害者中约有三分之二是在苏联领土上被杀害的.
95	Within the borders of June 22nd 1941, the date when German forces invaded the Soviet Union launching Operation Barbarossa.	在1941年6月22日的边界内,德国军队入侵苏联发动巴巴罗萨行动的日期.
96	Now, the German invasion of the Soviet Union in summer 1941 marked a fundamental change in both the scope and systematic nature of Nazi mass violence.	现在,德国在1941年夏天入侵苏联,标志着纳粹大规模暴力的范围和系统性都发生了根本性的变化.
97	For the first time, mass murder of Jews and other racial and political opponents was the order of the day from the very outset of the military campaign, which was conducted in an unrestricted and blatantly ideological manner.	对犹太人和其他种族和政治反对派的大规模谋杀,第一次是从军事行动一开始就开始的秩序,军事行动是以不受限制和公然的意识形态方式进行的。
98	It was in this theater of war that the military conflict was most brutally fought, and in which more of Nazi Germany's mass crimes were committed than on any other front.	正是在这个战争剧场里,军事冲突是最残酷的战斗,在这场战斗中,纳粹德国的大规模罪行比其他任何战线都多.
99	The number of dead that Germany's war against the Soviet Union cost exceeded that of the other fronts, several times over.	德国对苏联的战争所花费的死亡人数超过了其他战线,几度超过.
100	And it's particularly the death toll among civilians and other non-combatants that stands out here.	而这里最突出的是平民和其他非战斗人员的死亡人数。
101	Several major groups of non-combatants and you can see them in the table there.	几个主要的非战斗人员群体,你们可以在桌子上看到他们。
102	Several groups of non-combatants among the Soviet population were targeted by Nazi mass killing policies purely on the basis of their belonging to these groups.	苏联人口中若干非战斗人员群体纯粹由于属于这些团体而成为纳粹大规模杀戮政策的目标。
103	Jews, psychiatric patients, Roma, urban dwellers in general, especially children, the sick and the elderly, and captive Red Army soldiers.	犹太人,精神病患者,罗姆人,一般城市居民,特别是儿童,病人和老人,以及被俘的红军士兵.
104	In fact, the range of victim groups extended even further.	事实上,受害者群体的范围进一步扩大。
105	Inhabitants of the countryside were likewise at serious risk of succumbing to so-called pacification operations.	农村居民同样面临屈服于所谓和平行动的严重危险。
106	Hundreds of thousands of residents of rural regions in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia fell victim to German terror and reprisals carried out during the campaign waged against Soviet partisans, real and imagined.	白俄罗斯、乌克兰和俄罗斯农村地区数十万居民成为德国在对苏联游击队分子发动的、真实和想象中的恐怖和报复行动的受害者。
107	In actual fact, then, regardless of one's ethnic background, religion, physical and mental state, place of residence or whether or not one wore a uniform, there was a very real chance of falling prey to the ubiquitous violence spread by German agencies in	实际上,无论一个人的种族背景、宗教、身心状况、居住地或是否穿制服,都很有可能成为德国机构在被占领的苏维埃领土上散布的无处不在的暴力的受害者。
108	Just stop sharing my screen there.	停止分享我的屏幕。
109	So the Soviet territories have a special place in this orgy of Nazi violence, particularly during these years 1941 to 1945.	因此苏联领土在这场纳粹暴力的狂欢中占有特殊的地位,特别是在1941年至1945年的这些年.
110	In addition, the mass murder of children there and elsewhere is surely the most salient feature of National Socialist atrocities.	此外,在那里和其他地方大规模杀害儿童无疑是国家社会主义暴行的最突出特征。
111	From the first victims of the child euthanasia campaign via the 1.5 million murdered children of Jewish descent to the so-called bandit children in the occupied Soviet territories.	从儿童安乐死运动的第一批受害者,到150万犹太裔被谋杀的儿童,到被占领的苏维埃领土上的所谓强盗儿童。
112	Especially young children succumb to the starvation policy in various occupied regions.	特别是在被占领地区,年幼的儿童屈服于饥饿政策。
113	Infant mortality assumed horrendous proportions.	婴儿死亡率达到了可怕的程度。
114	The first and last victims of Nazi mass killing were disabled children, the weakest and most vulnerable of all Nazi victims.	纳粹大规模屠杀的第一和最后的受害者是残疾儿童,是所有纳粹受害者中最弱和最脆弱的。
115	And I would argue that the ruthless murder of so many children in particular is a crime without historical precedence.	我主张,残忍杀害这么多儿童的行为是没有历史先例的罪行。
116	Children were murdered for many of the same reasons as adults were murdered.	儿童被杀害的原因与成年人被杀的原因很多相同。
117	They were viewed as a racial biological threat, as rivals for food and accommodation, as potential spies and partisan supporters.	他们被视为种族生物威胁、食宿对手、潜在间谍和党派支持者。
118	The fact that they were deemed unproductive, worthless or a burden only compounded their fate.	他们被视为无产物、无价值或负担的事实只会加重他们的命运。
119	Not only these reasons that I've just mentioned, suffice for the Nazis to murder these children.	不仅仅是我刚才提到的这些原因足以让纳粹杀害这些孩子
120	There was one other reason, however, and although the Nazis didn't tend to need it, this final motivation for killing children was sometimes in those cases where adults were killed first.	然而,还有一个原因,虽然纳粹往往不需要,但杀害儿童的这一最终动机有时是在成年人先被杀死的情况下.
121	The assumption that the children would likely avenge the death of their parents.	假设孩子们可能会为父母的死亡报仇。
122	And that was an additional reason for them to be murdered by the Nazis.	这是他们被纳粹杀害的另一个原因。
123	Numerous children furthermore were deported, compelled to carry out heavy labor, sent to camps, or subjected to barbaric medical experiments.	此外,许多儿童被驱逐,被迫从事繁重的劳动,被送往难民营,或遭受野蛮的医学试验。
124	Others were stolen from their parents and given up for forced adoption.	其他人被从父母那里偷走,并被强迫收养。
125	I think it's fair to say that the crimes committed against these defenseless victims are a vivid illustration of the moral degeneration of the perpetrators.	我认为公平地说,针对这些无自卫能力的受害者犯下的罪行,生动地说明了肇事者的道德堕落.
126	And so to the perpetrators.	及诸犯者.
127	My book focuses on Germans and Austrians.	我的书侧重于德国人和奥地利人。
128	The Nazi mass killing programs were a German project conceived of, set in motion by, and driven forward through the agency of Germans.	纳粹的大规模杀戮计划是德国人提出的计划由德国人发起并通过德国人推动
129	Furthermore, the vast majority of perpetrators were German or Austrian, and the vast majority of victims were killed by them, sometimes exclusively so.	此外,绝大多数肇事者是德国人或奥地利人,绝大多数受害者是被他们杀害的,有时完全是他们杀害的。
130	Nazi mass atrocities were not unique.	纳粹大规模暴行并非独一无二。
131	Genocides were committed before the Nazis and have indeed been committed since.	在纳粹面前犯下了灭绝种族罪行,此后确实犯下了灭绝种族罪行。
132	But Nazi genocide and mass killing can perhaps be seen as an extreme case of collective violence in view of the dimensions, intensity, and nature of the crimes committed.	但鉴于所犯罪行的规模、强度和性质,纳粹种族灭绝和大规模屠杀也许可以被看作是集体暴力的极端案例。
133	In this sense, they remain unparalleled and continue to inform our understanding and categorization of mass killing.	从这个意义上讲,它们仍然是无与伦比的,并继续成为我们对大规模杀戮的理解和分类的依据。
134	I learned the sheer number of Nazi perpetrators active over an extended period of time, operating often in multiple contexts and against several victim groups requires explanation.	我了解到,在很长一段时间里活跃的纳粹罪犯人数众多,他们常常在多种情况下活动,并且针对若干受害群体,这需要解释。
135	Hundreds of thousands of mass murderers were at large simultaneously.	数十万人同时逍遥法外。
136	These perpetrators mainly but not exclusively men were not from one single generation, they transcended multiple age groups, some of the most merciless and radical killers had spent their formative years in the Imperial Germany of the 1890s and early 1900	这些行凶者主要但不完全是男性,不是来自一代人,他们超越了多个年龄组,一些最无情和激进的杀手在1890年代和1900年代初在帝国德国度过了他们的成长年代.
137	Other perpetrators by contrast, had still been children when the Nazis assumed power in Germany in 1933.	相比之下,在1933年纳粹在德国掌权时,其他肇事者仍然是儿童。
138	The Nazi perpetrators at the shooting pits on the selection ramps and in the mental asylums spanned several generations.	在选择坡道上的射击坑和精神病院的纳粹罪犯跨越几代人。
139	They were united, however, by a shared national trauma that cuts across age groups and social backgrounds.	然而,他们团结在一起的是,跨越不同年龄组和社会背景的共同国家创伤。
140	Defeat in the First World War, as I mentioned earlier, the obliteration of German great power ambitions and the tumultuous fallout of 1918 and 1919 caused an individual and collective trauma in German society.	在第一次世界大战中失败,正如我前面提到的那样,消灭了德国的伟大强权野心和1918年和1919年的动荡后果,在德国社会中造成了个人和集体的创伤。
141	This affected not merely those who consciously experienced these events firsthand, but also by means of intergenerational transmission, their progeny, their children who suffered a secondary traumatization.	这不仅影响到那些有意识地亲身经历这些事件的人,而且还影响到代际传染、其后代、遭受二次创伤的儿童。
142	In this situation, in this context, ethnic nationalist sentiments already present in the belated nation state were radicalized further.	在这种情况下,过时的民族国家已经存在的民族民族主义情绪进一步激进化。
143	Not only was there a widespread convict conviction that what had gone wrong in 1918 had to be put right, but as I mentioned earlier, also a fervent belief that radical measures of an unprecedented nature were imperative in order to achieve this and to	不仅普遍相信1918年发生错误必须纠正,而且正如我前面提到的那样,还热切地相信,为了实现这一点,必须采取前所未有的激进措施。
144	This inevitable European and later global war came in 1939, the full force of Nazi revisionist violence informed by an obsessive crusade to racially and socially purify and strengthen the German nation.	这场不可避免的欧洲战争和后来的全球战争发生在1939年,纳粹修正主义暴力的全部力量被一场种族和社会净化和加强德意志民族的顽固运动所渗透。
145	And by extension, the pan European Nazi Empire was unleashed genocide and mass killing became a form of warfare in their own right.	进而,泛欧洲纳粹帝国发动了种族灭绝,大规模屠杀本身就成为一种战争形式.
146	Now, there are features and patterns common to all modern genocides, but there were also specifically Nazi motivations for mass killing, as I've just touched on.	现在,所有现代种族灭绝都有共同的特征和模式,但也特别有纳粹大规模屠杀的动机,正如我刚才提到的.
147	There is no mono causal explanation or single explanatory model for the actions of these perpetrators.	对这些肇事者的行为没有单一的因果关系解释或单一的解释模式。
148	The answer we seek can be found only in the interaction of several factors converging in specific historical circumstances.	我们所寻求的答案只能在具体历史情况下若干因素的相互作用中找到。
149	The conduct of the Holocaust perpetrators, for instance, cannot be explained in terms of their ideology alone, and yet it cannot be understood without it because antisemitism provided at all times, a general absolution for the actions of the perpetrators.	例如,大屠杀肇事者的行为不能仅以其意识形态来解释,然而,如果没有这种思想,就无法理解,因为反分裂主义在任何时候都为肇事者的行动提供了普遍赦免。
150	However, more than half of the 13 million victims of deliberate Nazi policies of mass murder were not Jewish.	然而,纳粹蓄意大规模屠杀政策的1 300万受害者中有一半以上不是犹太人。
151	Antisemitism as a motivating factor cannot explain why German and Austrian perpetrators massacred Belarusian villages starved German psychiatric patients or gassed Austrian Roma, just to name three examples.	反分裂主义作为一个激励因素,不能解释为什么德国和奥地利的肇事者屠杀白俄罗斯村庄饿死德国精神病患者或毒死奥地利罗姆人,仅举三个例子。
152	This brings me to the third and last of the book's main theses, and I'll share my screen again for you.	这让我想起了这本书的第三篇和最后一篇主要论文,我将再次与你分享我的屏幕.
153	So you can see this.	这样你就能看见了
154	Antisemitism was only one admittedly central component of Nazi ideology.	反分裂主义只是纳粹意识形态的一个核心组成部分。
155	Radical ethnic nationalism and biological racism were also key elements, and they are indispensable for explaining Nazi atrocities against	激进的民族民族主义和生物种族主义也是关键因素,对于解释纳粹对犹太人的暴行是必不可少的。
156	non-Jewish victims.	非犹太人受害者。
157	Now these profound ideological convictions were not held by a few fanatics, but, as I've already mentioned, by hundreds of thousands of people at the same time.	现在,这些深刻的意识形态信念并不是由几个狂热分子所持有的,而是,正如我已经提到过的,同时被几十万人所持有的.
158	These people came not only from elite Nazi organizations such as the SS, but also in substantial numbers from the Wehrmacht, the regular German Armed Forces, which, with a total of 18 million members between 1935 and 1945, constituted a cross section of t	这些人不仅来自党卫军等纳粹精英组织,而且大量来自德国正规武装部队韦尔马克特,在1935年至1945年间共有1800万成员,构成了当时德国男性人口的交叉部分.
159	Very many perpetrators, therefore, came not from the fringes, but from the heart of German society.	因此,许多肇事者并非来自边缘,而是来自德国社会的核心。
160	This prevalence of radical ideological convictions during the years in question points to a shared and defining historical context.	在所述几年中,这种激进意识形态信念的盛行,表明了一个共同和界定的历史背景。
161	The perpetrators were less ordinary men, to use the words of Christopher Browning, than ordinary Germans during an extraordinary time in German history.	用克里斯托弗·布朗宁的话来说,行凶者不是普通人,而是德国历史上非常时期的普通德国人。
162	These specific generations of Germans, by virtue of a certain set of circumstances and the events of the preceding decades, were particularly radicalized and more inclined to pursue extreme solutions to perceived problems.	这些特定的几代德国人,由于某种情况以及前几十年的事件,特别激进,更倾向于寻求极端地解决所察觉的问题.
163	So I'll stop sharing my screen now approaching the end of my presentation.	所以,我不再分享我的屏幕现在接近我的演示结束。
164	There is another reason why context is a key explanatory factor for the crimes of the Nazis and also other instances of mass violence and mass killing.	另一个原因是,背景是解释纳粹罪行和其他大规模暴力和大规模屠杀事件的关键因素。
165	The Nazi state placed at the disposal of its followers, means of violence normally beyond the reach of most people.	纳粹国家把暴力手段交给其追随者支配,这种暴力手段通常无法为大多数人所利用。
166	It then authorized the use of extreme violence against several groups that had been relentlessly dehumanized and declared fair game in the years leading up to the war.	随后,它授权对几个在战争前的岁月中被无情地非人化并宣布为公平游戏的团体使用极端暴力.
167	Psychiatric patients, Jews, Slavs, Roma and others.	精神病患者,犹太人,斯拉夫人,罗姆人等.
168	Then in the context of the war these groups no longer enjoyed any legal protection whatsoever, and could be killed with impunity.	然后,在战争中,这些团体不再享有任何法律保护,而且可能不受惩罚地被杀害。
169	Many of the perpetrators were members of state organizations such as the Wehrmacht, the police and paramilitaries like the SS, but the killings committed by hospital personnel during the period of decentralized euthanasia, for instance, demonstrate	许多肇事者是国家组织的成员,如Wehrmacht、警察和党卫军等准军事组织的成员,但医院人员在分散安乐死期间的杀戮表明,
170	that membership in a state organization was by no means sufficient or necessary for participation in mass killing.	国家组织的成员资格绝不是参与大规模屠杀的充分或必要的。
171	Decisive instead was the fact that the Nazi regime created a framework that allowed its followers under cover of war to commit acts that would have been scarcely imaginable in other circumstances.	决定性的是,纳粹政权建立了一个框架,允许其追随者在战争的掩护下从事在其他情况下难以想象的行为。
172	Only in this way can we explain how it was possible for hundreds of thousands of murderers to settle back into normal civilian life from 1945 and reintegrate into post-war German society as school teachers, bank managers, physicians, town mayors or salesm	只有这样,我们才能解释,从1945年起,成千上万的杀人犯如何能够恢复正常的平民生活,并重新回到战后德国社会,成为学校教师、银行经理、医生、市长或销售员。
173	During the Nazi period in general and the war in particular, conduct once considered wrong and unlawful now seemed right and justified.	在纳粹时期,特别是在战争期间,曾经被认为是错误和非法的行为现在似乎是正确的和正当的。
174	It was not only permitted but in fact desired and therefore legitimate or at least legitimated.	这不仅是允许的,而且事实上是希望的,因此是合法的或至少合法的。
175	When the war ended in 1945 and the Nazi era with it, this behavior was again deemed wrong and unlawful.	当战争于1945年结束,纳粹时代也随之结束,这种行为再次被认为是错误和非法的.
176	The unity of and freeway interplay between the shared national trauma of 1918, ideological radicalization and sanctioning from above are crucial to understanding the actions of the Nazi perpetrators.	1918年国家共同创伤、意识形态激进化和上述制裁之间的统一和高速公路相互作用,对于了解纳粹罪犯的行动至关重要。
177	Thank you very much for your attention.	非常感谢你的关注。
178	Dr. K thank you so much for this talk on a very important and weighty topic.	K博士非常感谢你谈到一个重要和重要话题
179	I will wait a bit for questions coming in from the chat box or please feel free to raise your hands.	我会等待一些问题从聊天箱进来或者请随意举手。
180	But even before they start rolling in, are you able to share more about the historical context of the defeat of 1918 and how that contributed to this radical conceptualization of this ethnic nationalism that kind of	但是,即使在他们开始进入之前,你是否能够更多地分享1918年战败的历史背景,以及这如何促进这种激进的民族民族主义概念化?
181	somehow justified this extreme collective violence in the coming year?	在未来一年里,这种极端的集体暴力是有理由的?
182	Yes, of course.	当然
183	Thank you.	谢谢
184	So I think, obviously I could, I wasn't able to go into too much depth about kind of the background of ethnic nationalism in the paper but I didn't mention it a few times so you're absolutely right that requires some explanation.	所以我想,显然我可以, 我无法在报纸上深入了解民族民族主义的背景, 但我没有提过几次,所以你绝对是对的,这需要一些解释。
185	Germany already, it was a very young nation state, you know, only founded in 1871, unlike much much older nations, European nations like France or England, and it therefore had a different	德国已经是一个非常年轻的民族国家了,你知道, 1871年才成立, 不像很多老化的国家, 像法国或英国这样的欧洲国家, 因此它有一个不同的
186	conception of citizenship, you know, who was entitled to German citizenship, who belonged to the German nation, quite different to, let's say, the French conception of citizenship, which is very much based on the state, and the German conception of citize	公民权的概念,你知道,谁有权拥有德国国籍,谁属于德国民族,与法国国籍概念有很大不同,比如,法国国籍概念在很大程度上是基于国家,德国国籍概念
187	from the very beginnings of the German nation state in 1871 through to the Second World War was very much based on the idea of nation rather than the state.	从1871年德意志民族国家开始到第二次世界大战,都非常基于民族而非国家的思想.
188	So this attachment to the nation, the kind of the ethnicity, the ethnic group rather than the state as a political structure, if that makes sense.	所以这种对民族的依恋,对民族的种类,民族,而不是对国家的政治结构的依恋,如果这有道理的话.
189	So in France, for example, conceptions of citizenship are very much tied to the state as a political entity in Germany, the conception of citizenship was very much tied to the nation.	例如,在法国,公民权的概念与国家作为德国的一个政治实体有很大联系,公民权的概念与国家有很大联系。
190	And this was particularly important in the context of the First World War because Germany lost substantial swathes of territory in the post war peace settlement.	这在第一次世界大战中尤其重要,因为德国在战后和平解决中失去了大量的领土。
191	And so you had a situation where a marriage where there were multiple people of German nationality living outside the borders of the German Reich.	所以,你有一个情况,一个婚姻有多个德国国籍的人生活在德意志帝国的边界之外。
192	And so this kind of attachment to the German nation, rather than the German state became very, very important.	所以这种对德意志民族的依恋,而不是对德意志国家,变得非常,非常重要.
193	So this conception that had already been there since 1871 became even more crucial for Germans living outside of the state after the First World War.	因此这个自1871年以来就已经存在的概念,对于第一次世界大战后生活在国家以外的德国人来说,变得更加重要.
194	So that's what I mean by the idea of ethnic nationalism.	所以这就是我所说的民族民族主义思想.
195	So ideas of ethnic nationalism and who belonged to the state and who didn't, sorry, who was a citizen and who wasn't, who was entitled to call himself kind of a member of the nation,	所以,民族民族主义的思想,谁属于国家,谁没有,对不起,谁是一个公民,谁没有,谁有权称自己是国家的成员,
196	and who wasn't really radicalized in this, after this defeat in the First World War.	在第一次世界大战失败后,他并没有被激进化
197	So that's kind of the first half of my answer to your question.	所以这就是我回答你问题的前半部分。
198	I think the second part of your question was relating to the context of defeat in the First World War.	我认为你的问题的第二部分是关于第一次世界大战失败的背景
199	I mean, that's more that's more a military question, which I don't go into great detail on in my book, it's been dealt with elsewhere.	我的意思是,这更多的是一个军事问题, 我不在书中详细谈论, 它已经被处理到其他地方。
200	But certainly there was a strong belief among parts of the German population and within the German military that Germany hadn't actually been defeated in battle, hadn't been defeated in the field.	但是,当然德国部分人口和德国军队内部都强烈相信,德国在战场上并没有真正被击败,也没有被击败.
201	Now, this wasn't entirely the case.	现在,情况并非如此。
202	There was some truth in it, but it wasn't entirely the case.	里面有些事实,但事实并非如此。
203	The problem was that the German military was not entirely honest with the German home front when it came to defeat, military defeats on the battlefield.	问题在于德国军队在战场上战败,军事战败时,对德国本土战线并不完全诚实.
204	The communication lines between the German military out in the field and the German home front were not particularly open, not particularly honest.	德军在野外与德军主力战线的通信线路并不特别开放,也不特别诚实.
205	Which means that the people back in Germany on the home front thought that the war was still going well when actually Germany was being defeated.	也就是说,回到家乡的德国人民认为,战争在实际德国被击败时仍然进展顺利.
206	However, because of this failure to transmit this information back to the home front, when the German military collapsed, there was this sense of disbelief in Germany.	然而,由于这一未能将这一信息传送回国内战线,当德国军方崩溃时,德国就出现了这种不信任感.
207	How could this happen?	怎么会这样?
208	Everything was going well.	一切都很顺利
209	Our military has not been defeated, so who's to blame for our defeat?	我们的军队还没有被打败,那么谁应该责备我们的失败呢?
210	And then they started looking for people to blame.	然后他们开始寻找人的责任。
211	And in the context of this heightened state of ethnic nationalism, and in any case during wartime, you look for people to blame, you look for scapegoats and political opponents, pacifists, Jews in general.	而在这种民族民族主义的强化状态下,无论如何在战时,你寻找人们的责备,寻找替罪羊和政治对手,和平主义者,一般犹太人.
212	So these were the people who then became the scapegoats for Germany's defeat in the First World War.	这些人后来成为德国在第一次世界大战中战败的替罪羊.
213	I'll leave it there.	我会留在那里。
214	I hope I've answered your question.	我希望我已经回答了你的问题。
215	Yes, very much so.	是的,非常喜欢。
216	Thank you.	谢谢
217	And the next question goes to Yunxiang, who raised her hand.	而下问云香,云香举手.
218	Let me try to unmute you.	让我试着揭开你的烙印
219	All right, thank you.	好吧,谢谢你。
220	So I have a question regarding Operation Paperclip, the US secret operation that took Nazi scientists and V2 rocket scientists to the US to aid in the space race against the Soviets.	所以我要问一个问题,关于Paperclip行动, 美国的秘密行动, 将纳粹科学家和V2火箭科学家带到美国协助太空竞赛对抗苏联。
221	What are your opinions about Operation Paperclip?	你对剪纸行动有什么看法?
222	Was it ethical in a way?	这是否合乎道德?
223	What are your opinions, I wonder?	请问你有什么意见?
224	When I first heard the words Operation Paperclip, I thought, I don't mention that in my book, but then it came to me what you were talking about.	当我第一次听到纸币行动的话时,我想,我不在我的书里提到这一点,但后来你所讲的就到了我这里.
225	Yes, of course.	当然
226	Yes, was it ethical?	是的,这是伦理吗?
227	That's a very good question.	这是一个非常好的问题。
228	Again here context, I talked a lot about context in my paper just now, and I think context here is also decisive.	我刚刚在论文中又谈到许多背景,我认为这里的背景也具有决定性。
229	So 1945 you have the end of the Second World War, you have the defeat of Nazi Germany, but you also have the beginnings of the Cold War.	1945年,第二次世界大战结束,纳粹德国战败,但也有冷战的开始。
230	You have the beginnings of this antagonism between the Western allies, Great Britain and particularly the United States, and its wartime ally, the Soviet Union.	你们有西方盟国,大不列颠,特别是美国, 及其战时盟友苏联之间的这种对抗的开始.
231	And I think Operation Paperclip certainly has to be seen in that context, that the Americans in particular, but also the British were getting ready to face off against a new opponent, namely the Bolshevik communist Soviet Union, and realized therefore qui	我认为,必须从这个角度来看待“纸币行动”,特别是美国人,还有英国人正准备面对一个新的对手,即布尔什维克共产主义苏联,因此在战后相当迅速地意识到这一点。
232	And I think at the latest that kind of a German bulwark in the center of Europe would not be a bad idea.	我认为最晚欧洲中部的德国堡垒不会是个坏主意。
233	So yes, let's by all means put the leading Nazi criminals on trial, but let's not destroy Germany as a nation because we need Germany in the center of Europe.	所以,我们无论如何都要审判主要的纳粹罪犯,但不要因为欧洲中心需要德国而毁灭德国作为一个国家.
234	And we need to make sure that if there is war of one sort or another between America and the Soviet Union, that we get Germany on our side.	我们需要确保,如果美国和苏联之间发生这种或那种战争,我们就让德国站在我们一边。
235	So I think that's the context.	所以我认为这就是背景。
236	Was it ethical?	道德吗?
237	No.	没有
238	And there was certainly a number of people, a number of Germans, and this applies not just to Operation Paperclip, but to different strands of cooperation between Germans and the Western allies after the war.	当然还有一些人,一些德国人, 这不仅适用于纸币行动, 也适用于战后德国和西方盟友之间不同的合作。
239	There were a number of a number of Germans who were war criminals, and they then went on to work for the CIA, they went on to work for the British SIS.	当时有不少德国人是战犯,后来他们继续为中情局工作,继续为英国SIS工作.
240	And it seems that ethical questions, you know, are we, do we want to work with a war criminal?	似乎道德问题,你知道, 我们,我们是不是想和一个战犯合作?
241	Do we want to work with somebody who was committed atrocities?	我们想和犯下暴行的人合作吗?
242	We're secondary in the context of the Cold War.	在冷战中我们是次要的
243	So not ethical, no, but a result of this this new context from 1945 onwards.	所以,不是道德问题,不是,而是1945年以后这种新情况的结果。
244	Thank you.	谢谢
245	The next question is from Tomahawk, whom I believe is Steve.	下一个问题来自Tomahawk, 我相信他是史蒂夫。
246	Please ask your question.	请师问.
247	Yes, this is about Russia.	是的,这是关于俄罗斯的。
248	Since Russia and the Soviet Union, they made a peace agreement ahead of the Paris Peace Agreement Conference.	自俄罗斯和苏联以来,他们在巴黎和平协议会议之前达成了和平协议.
249	Why did the Germans, they are still the largest victim group among all the victims?	为什么德国人,他们仍然是最大的受害者群体?
250	Because this is actually a surprise to me, today, the new information.	因为这对我来说是一个惊喜,今天,新的信息。
251	And apparently, shouldn't the German be more friendly with the Russian, given the history?	显然,鉴于历史,德国人不应该对俄罗斯人更加友好吗?
252	They're not Polish, they're not on the winning side, they didn't take the territory from the German.	他们不是波兰人,不是站在胜利一方,没有从德国人手中夺取领地.
253	So they're not, neither they're the backstabbers during the war.	所以他们不是,也不是战争期间的后盾.
254	Yeah.	对
255	So why do they hate, why do the Nazis hate them so much?	那为什么他们讨厌,为什么纳粹这么讨厌他们?
256	That's my question.	这是我的问题。
257	Thank you very much for the question.	非常感谢你问的这个问题。
258	Yes, you're absolutely right to point out that they constituted the largest proportion of victims and indeed the Soviets lost almost 27 million people, both soldiers and civilians during the Second World War, while fighting Nazi Germany.	是的,你绝对正确地指出,他们占受害者的最大比例,事实上苏联人在第二次世界大战期间在与纳粹德国作战时,损失了将近2700万人,包括士兵和平民.
259	And that death toll is, I mean, it's huge.	死亡人数很大
260	And I think only China really comes close to that figure of victims.	我认为只有中国才真正接近受害者人数。
261	I think the Chinese lost anything between, in the range of 10 to 20 million during what was an even longer, a wartime period for them because that started already well before 1939, as you know, much better than I do.	我认为中国人损失了1 000万至2 000万之间, 在更长时间的战时, 对他们来说是一个战时时期, 因为这早在1939年以前就开始了, 正如你所知, 比我好多了。
262	Yeah, why did the Nazis still hate them so much?	是啊,为什么纳粹仍然如此恨他们?
263	Well, keep in mind that in the First World War, Germany and Russia were also opponents, and the Russians surrendered in 1917 in the wake of the revolution there, and then signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk,	记住在第一次世界大战中,德国和俄罗斯也是反对者,1917年俄国人在那里革命后投降,然后签署了布列斯特-利托夫斯克条约,
264	which, you know, removed them from the war much earlier than the Western Allies did, and Germany actually occupied a lot of territory in Eastern Europe, which it had to then give up again after 1918.	德国实际上占领了东欧的很多领土而在1918年后它不得不再次放弃
265	So they hadn't been allies in the First World War.	所以在第一次世界大战中他们不是盟友.
266	And what is more important, however, that point is kind of secondary, what is more important is that the Nazis saw in the Soviet Union a combination of everything they hated.	然而,更重要的是,这一点是次要的,更重要的是,纳粹在苏联看到了他们所憎恨的一切的结合。
267	Bolshevism, communism.	布尔什维克主义,共产主义.
268	They believe that the Jews were in charge of the state, that Jewry and Bolshevism went hand in hand.	他们认为犹太人掌管国家,犹太人和布尔什维克并驾齐驱.
269	They often refer to the Judeo-Bolshevik regime in the Soviet Union under Stalin.	他们经常提到斯大林统治下的苏联的犹太-布尔什维克政权.
270	And also this idea of equality, which is inherent in communism, the Nazis absolutely hated that.	还有这种平等的思想,这是共产主义所固有的,纳粹绝对讨厌这一点.
271	They were enemies of the Enlightenment.	他们是启蒙派的敌人
272	This was also one reason why they hated Jews, because Jews were certainly in Central and Western Europe, one of the biggest winners of increased civil rights in the wake of the Enlightenment.	这也是他们讨厌犹太人的原因之一,因为犹太人肯定在中欧和西欧,是启蒙运动后增加公民权利的最大赢家之一.
273	But in the Soviet Union in particular, you have this combination of supposedly leading figures in the Soviet regime being Jews and the state policy of Bolshevism combined.	但是,在苏联, 苏联政权的所谓领导人物是犹太人和布尔什维克的国策相结合。
274	So that made the Nazis hate the Soviet Union more than any other nation.	这使得纳粹比任何其他国家都更讨厌苏联.
275	And in addition, there were kind of cultural ideas of superiority towards Eastern European nations, so Russians, Belarusians, etc.	此外,还有那种对东欧国家具有优越性的文化观念,因此俄罗斯人,白俄罗斯人等也存在.
276	were considered racially inferior.	被认为是种族低劣。
277	So you have these kind of these different factors coming together to make the Soviets kind of the ultimate hate image for the Nazis.	所以你们有这些不同的因素使苏联人成为纳粹的终极仇恨形象
278	And you already see that in the 1920s when Hitler writes his kind of quasi autobiographical work Mein Kampf, My Struggle, he's already talking about, in the mid 1920s, he's already talking about the Germans need living space in the East.	在20世纪20年代希特勒写他的准自传作品 Mein Kampf, My Struggle, 他已经在谈论, 在20世纪20年代中期, 他已经在谈论德国人在东方需要生活空间。
279	And it's very, very clear that he's talking about Soviet territory.	而且非常,非常清楚的是,他在谈论苏联的领土.
280	So when the invasion of the Soviet Union finally comes in June 1941, this is very much kind of the culmination of at least one and a half decades of, you know, desire on the part of Hitler to invade the Soviet Union.	所以,当苏联的入侵终于在1941年6月到来时,这是希特勒入侵苏联至少一个半十年的高潮,你知道的。
281	This is really the war that he's been longing for.	这是他一直渴望的战争
282	I hope that answers your question.	我希望这能回答你的问题。
283	Thank you, Stephen, Alex.	谢谢你,斯蒂芬,亚历克斯。
284	I'll go to Jenny next in turn and then go to Patrick afterwards.	我接下来是珍妮,然后是帕特里克。
285	Jenny, would you like to ask your question.	珍妮,请问你的问题。
286	Okay, so my question is, these days, Western countries talk about the threat of Russia, but should the European countries be more afraid of Germany than Russia, given Germany's history of militarism?	好吧,所以我的问题是,这些天西方国家谈论俄罗斯的威胁,但是鉴于德国的军国主义历史,欧洲国家应该比俄罗斯更害怕德国吗?
287	Yeah, no doubt you're right, that Germany does have a history of militarism, and for a long, long time, Germany was the focal point of fear in Europe, in Western Europe, in Central Europe, in Eastern Europe, Germany had a major role, played a major role i	是的,毫无疑问你是对的,德国确实有军国主义的历史, 长期以来,德国一直是欧洲,西欧,中欧,东欧的恐惧焦点, 德国在第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战这两个全球冲突中扮演了重要的角色。
288	And that was already subsequent to, you know, defeating the French in 1871, which remained a traumatic event for the French for many, many years.	这已经是1871年击败法国人之后, 多年来法国人一直遭受着创伤。
289	And, you know, thereafter, in the lead up to the First World War, and of course in the lead up to the Second World War, Germany remained kind of the bogeyman of Europe, and yeah, a major fear factor for all countries really around Germany.	然后,在第一次世界大战之前, 当然在第二次世界大战之前, 德国仍然是欧洲的幽灵, 是的,对于所有真正在德国周围的国家来说, 这是一个主要的恐惧因素。
290	But 1945 was definitely a turning point in that respect.	但是,1945年肯定是这方面的一个转折点。
291	I think partly because of the absolute devastation in Germany.	我想部分原因是德国的毁灭。
292	And this is where it differs, the end of the Second World War differs very much from the end of the First World War, although the Versailles peace settlement was very far reaching, and Germany did lose a lot of territory as a result.	而这里则有所不同,第二次世界大战的结束与第一次世界大战的结束大不相同,虽然凡尔赛和平解决方案已经非常远,德国的确因此失去了许多领土.
293	But the war, the Second World War actually took place on German soil actually finished on German soil which had not been the case in the First World War.	但是,战争,第二次世界大战实际上发生在德国的土地上,实际上在德国的土地上完成,第一次世界大战时并非如此.
294	So the German people finally realized in the latter stages of the Second World War, so kind of from 1944 onwards, what it means to be fighting a war on its own territory, on their own territory.	因此,德国人民终于在第二次世界大战的后期意识到,从1944年开始,在自己的领土上进行一场战争意味着什么。
295	And, you know, what this history of German militarism actually means, it really came back to them.	而且,你知道,德国军国主义的历史到底意味着什么, 它真的回到了他们身上。
296	And Germany was absolutely kind of a wasteland afterwards in 1945.	1945年德国是一片荒地
297	So I think this was a turning point in terms of mentalities and reflecting on recent German history.	因此,我认为这在思想和思考近代德国历史方面是一个转折点。
298	And since 1945, and particularly in the last three or four decades, Germany has made major strides towards recognizing its past, recognizing and commemorating its past as well.	自1945年以来,特别是在最近三四十年,德国在承认其过去、承认和纪念其过去方面也取得了重大进展。
299	I think Germany has to be given credit for that the way Germany commemorates and keeps alive the memory of its Nazi past.	我认为,德国必须为此而得到赞扬,德国应当纪念并缅怀其纳粹历史。
300	To the point where Germany has for many, many years and maybe the war in Ukraine now is a bit of a kind of a departure from that but for many, many years, Germany was kind of a pacifist nation and refused to take part in	以至于德国已经多年,也许现在乌克兰的战争有点偏离了这一点但许多年来德国是一个和平主义的国家拒绝参加
301	in conflicts abroad in military conflicts.	军事冲突中的国外冲突。
302	So, I would say in Germany, since 1945, there have been a lot of lessons learned.	因此,我想在德国说,自1945年以来,已经吸取了许多教训。
303	And I've lived in Germany for 20 years now.	我在德国住了20年
304	And, you know, if that wasn't the case, then I would, I would struggle to live here but I do feel that Germany has made huge progress, particularly in the last decades, so that Germany is no longer a nation, a state to be	如果不是那样的话我会努力住在这里但我确实觉得德国已经取得了巨大进步特别是在过去几十年里
305	feared by the European countries.	被欧洲各国恐惧。
306	Thank you.	谢谢
307	And the next question goes to Patrick, who we miss very much at Yale Center Beijing he used to work with us and now I believe he's with his students, as well as colleagues in Sichuan, which is in the southwest I guess you can call southwest of China.	下一个问题是帕特里克,我们非常怀念他在北京耶鲁中心,他曾经和我们一起工作,现在我相信他和他的学生,以及四川的同事一起工作,那里在西南,我想你们可以称呼中国西南.
308	Thank you.	谢谢
309	Yeah, thank you, Carol.	谢谢,卡罗尔。
310	Very nice to meet you online.	很高兴在网上见到你。
311	Well, thank you.	谢谢
312	Yes, I brought brought a dozen students to this talk.	是的,我带了十几个学生来参加这个演讲。
313	I'm teaching English in a private Chinese college right now.	我现在在一所私立中文学院教英语.
314	And I have two questions to ask Dr.	我有两个问题要问医生
315	Okay.	摆
316	Okay, so the first question is, this is the first time I have heard that there are more than half of the victims are non Jewish people.	好吧,所以第一个问题是,这是我第一次听到有超过半数的受害者是非犹太人。
317	So is this the evidence new or it's actually not new, new evidence.	所以这是新的证据或者它实际上不是新的,新的证据。
318	And so, the second question is, because we were not really.	所以,第二个问题是,因为我们不是真的。
319	We don't know a lot about the Nazi and, well, World War Two history history of World War Two, but we hope to learn more.	我们不太了解纳粹,也不太了解二战的历史,但是我们希望学到更多的东西.
320	So, the question is, Nazi is such a bad, bad, terrible were in history, why is there still not see, like, in Europe.	所以,问题是,纳粹是一个坏,坏,可怕的在历史上,为什么仍然看不到,像,在欧洲。
321	Just this two questions.	就这两个问题
322	Thank you.	谢谢
323	Thank you very much for those two very interesting questions.	非常感谢那两个非常有趣的问题。
324	Yes.	对
325	First one, more than more than half of the civilian victims of Nazi masculine policies were non Jewish.	第一,一半以上的纳粹男性政策的平民受害者不是犹太人。
326	Is this new.	这是新的。
327	No.	没有
328	People working in the field, actually know this.	在外地工作的人,其实知道这一点。
329	And my book is, it is based partially on archival research but it's also many ways a synthesis of all of the kind of knowledge that historians have gathered over the past decades on on these crimes and on the victim groups, and I've kind of pulled it all	我的书是,它部分地基于档案研究, 但也有许多方法综合了历史学家在过去几十年中收集的关于这些罪行和受害者群体的所有知识, 我已经把它全部在一起,真的,
330	I think is what I've done.	我想我已经做了。
331	So it's not entirely new, we already, we already knew this the evidence itself is not new.	所以这不是全新的,我们已经知道证据本身不是新的。
332	However, that this has been that all of these major victim groups have been analyzed together in one book, and that this message has been, you know, so to the fall.	然而,这一直是所有这些主要受害者群体在一本书中一起分析, 并且这个信息,你知道, 一直到秋天。
333	That's, that's new, I would argue, I don't know another book that actually does this and that was one of my main, if not the main motivation for writing it because, you know, I've been working, I've been working the field for quite a while now and I'm alw	这是新书,我想说,我不知道另一本书实际这样做,这是我的主要, 如果不是主要动机之一写它,因为,你知道,我一直在工作, 我工作了相当长一段时间现在,我总是被一个事实,
334	victim groups are analyzed separately.	受害者群体单独分析。
335	So there are many, many, many books on the genocide of the European Jews on the Holocaust, and rightly so.	因此,关于欧洲犹太人在大屠杀问题上的种族灭绝,有许多,许多,很多的著作,这是正确的。
336	And there are, you know, there are books on the matter of the Roman minorities there are books on the killing of the Soviet prisoners of war, but not a book that actually looks at these groups together, although they were all killed during the same few ye	也有关于罗马少数民族的书籍也有关于杀害苏联战俘的书籍但是没有一本书可以把这些人一起看虽然他们都是在同些年被杀的
337	they were all killed by the same people that were killed for similar reasons using similar methods so why aren't we looking at these groups together, you know, because there must be something that connects them all is my main argument.	他们都是被同样的人杀死的他们出于相似的原因使用相似的方法所以为什么我们不一起看这些团体, 你知道, 因为一定有东西连接他们全部是我的主要论点。
338	So, yeah, so it's not new evidence but it's kind of an, it's a new, new thesis in, in a way that we need to be looking at all of these groups together and not in isolation from each other.	所以,是的,所以这不是新的证据, 但它是一种, 它是一个新的,新的论文, 在一个方式,我们需要看所有这些群体在一起,而不是孤立。
339	Your second point.	第二点
340	Yeah, yeah, the term Nazi is like, is kind of the ultimate evil everywhere isn't it to use this, this, this word, Nazi.	是的,是的,纳粹是这样的术语, 是那种终极的邪恶各地不是它用这个,这个,这个词,纳粹。
341	And I think what the Nazis did and the Holocaust in particular is still viewed in a lot of places certainly in the West, as the ultimate evil.	我认为纳粹的所作所为,特别是大屠杀,在西方许多地方仍然被看成是终极邪恶。
342	But, and yet there are still Nazis in Europe, definitely, but they don't necessarily call themselves not Nazis.	但是,然而欧洲仍有纳粹,当然,但他们不一定自称不是纳粹.
343	That's the thing, you know, so there are very very very few people, there are some, you know, there's always some very very few people who are actually	事情就是这样的,你知道的, 所以很少有人, 有一些,你知道, 总是有一些非常少的人实际上,
344	Nazis who call themselves Nazis so they call themselves something else.	自称纳粹的纳粹,所以自称别的东西.
345	You know,	你知道吗,
346	and because they're aware of the, of the stain associated with this word Nazi so they don't call themselves Nazis but they are actually Nazis.	因为他们意识到纳粹这个词的污点所以他们不自称纳粹但其实他们是纳粹
347	Does that answer your question?	这能回答你的问题吗?
348	Were you talking about the actual word itself or the fact that we have people in Europe who are Nazis, or were you talking about the use of the word to describe themselves?	你是在说实际的词本身还是我们欧洲有人是纳粹还是在说用这个词来形容自己?
349	Yeah, you answered my question.	是的,你回答了我的问题。
350	Thank you.	谢谢
351	Okay, great.	好吧,伟大的。
352	My pleasure.	我的荣幸
353	Thank you very, very much for the thoughtful questions.	非常感谢你的深思熟虑的问题。
354	My question is actually also related to kind of the large portion more than, I mean two thirds of the victims being from the then Soviet Union.	我的问题其实也涉及大部分的比, 我的意思是三分之二的受害者来自当时的苏联。
355	And, you know, and you gave a very persuasive answer about kind of what the Soviets or the communists symbolized for the Nazis.	而且,你知道,你给出了一个非常有说服力的答案关于苏联人或共产党人象征着纳粹。
356	You know, but kind of in contrast, as you mentioned, there, there are a lot more maybe accounts of the Holocaust or the European Jewry versus stories about the Soviet victims of the Nazi atrocities.	你知道,但有点反差, 正如你提到的, 在那里,有很多也许有关大屠杀或欧洲犹太人的故事和关于苏联纳粹暴行受害者的故事。
357	So I'm kind of maybe more curious about your methods and research and the archival records and how the atrocities done on Soviet soil might have been different or similar than the Holocaust records.	我也许更好奇你的方法和研究以及档案记录还有苏联领土上的暴行可能与大屠杀记录不同或相似
358	Thank you.	谢谢
359	This is a really good question.	这是一个非常好的问题。
360	Yes, it's, it's undeniable that we know much more about the genocide of European Jews about the Holocaust specifically and have done for a long time than about Nazi German crimes on Soviet territory.	是的,这是,这是不可否认的,我们更了解欧洲犹太人的种族灭绝具体的大屠杀, 并且已经做了很长时间比纳粹德国在苏联领土上的罪行。
361	And this again has a lot to do with the Cold War, and the fact that for people in the West, Eastern Europe in general and the Soviet Union in particular were cut off from us.	这同样也与冷战有关,对西方人民来说,整个东欧,特别是苏联,都与我们断绝了联系。
362	So there was very little opportunity up until the collapse of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the 1990s to actually collaborate with Soviet historians, you know, with Russian historians with Ukrainian historians with Belarusian historians, carrying o	因此,直到1990年代初苏联解体之前,几乎没有机会实际与苏联历史学家合作,你知道,俄罗斯历史学家与乌克兰历史学家与白俄罗斯历史学家合作,对这些罪行进行自己的研究.
363	And that problem didn't really exist.	这个问题并不存在。
364	When it came to the genocide of European Jews, apart from those Jews killed on the Soviet on Soviet territory, which was also substantial number, because there were so many	关于欧洲犹太人的种族灭绝,除了苏联领土上杀害的犹太人之外,苏联领土上的犹太人人数也很多,因为有这么多犹太人。
365	or substantial number of Jewish survivors who were living in Western Europe were living in the United States and Canada and Britain, and they provided testimony on what had happened in the camps.	或生活在西欧的大量犹太幸存者生活在美国、加拿大和英国,他们就难民营中发生的事情提供了证词。
366	And this is one reason why we know so much about Auschwitz, because Auschwitz was actually.	这就是为什么我们如此了解奥斯维辛, 因为奥斯维辛实际上是。
367	It wasn't an extermination camp, the Birkenau camp was an extermination camp, but there was also Auschwitz main camp which was a concentration camp which meant that most people who went through Auschwitz concentration camp actually survived.	它不是一个灭绝营, Birkenau 集中营是一个灭绝营, 但也有奥斯维辛主营, 这是一个集中营,这意味着大多数经过奥斯维辛集中营的人实际上是幸存下来的。
368	And they were mainly, or a lot of them were Western Europeans or Central Europeans so they were able to talk about their experiences after the war.	他们主要是西欧人或中欧人所以他们可以谈论战后的经历
369	Now it's very different to places like Treblinka and Zobibor, which were also extermination camps.	现在它与特雷布林卡和佐比博尔等也曾是灭绝营的地方截然不同.
370	I don't know if anybody in the audience has actually heard of these camps, but nearly a million people were killed in Treblinka extermination camp alone.	我不知道观众中是否有人听说过这些营地但仅特雷布林卡灭绝营就有近百万人丧生
371	But we don't, there were only like only about 70 survivors from this camp.	但是我们没有,只有70名幸存者
372	And so we know very little about it.	所以我们对此了解甚少。
373	And we're only now really starting to find out more about it.	而我们现在才真正开始发现更多关于它。
374	So I think it has, it has a lot to do with, with, with the context of the Cold War, and just the impossibility of really cooperating and having an exchange with Soviet historians.	所以我认为,这与冷战有关, 也与无法与苏联历史学家真正合作和交流有关。
375	Now I think there was a second part to your question, I'm not sure if I've answered it.	现在我想你的问题有第二个部分我不知道我是否回答了
376	Um, I, I think you've picked out the nuance of perhaps the multiple parts of my question, which is mainly kind of kind of why why we know less and kind of, you explained very well that, for example with Treblinka and they're just much fewer	嗯,我,我想你已经选择了细微的,也许我的问题的多个部分, 这主要是那种为什么我们知道更少和类型,
377	survivors that, you know, you just get naturally get fewer stories and fewer accounts.	幸存者,你知道,你只是自然得到更少的故事和更少的账户。
378	You know, given, given the time, I just want to thank you, Dr. K and to all the participants for your attentiveness and your thoughtful questions.	鉴于时间有限,我想感谢你、K博士和所有与会者的关心和深思熟虑的问题。
379	What we do traditionally for the CL Center Beijing Talks is we try to ask everyone who can to open up your cameras so we can take a group shot, and so everyone can say thank you to our speaker Dr. K today for giving such an important talk on this very som	我们传统上为CL中心北京会谈所做的是,我们试图请所有能够打开你的摄像头的人来拍摄一个集体镜头,这样每个人都可以感谢你今天向我们的演讲者K博士讲了这么重要的一段话,讲了这个非常沉闷但具有历史意义的部分。
380	Thank you.	谢谢
381	Various places around China and perhaps around the world as well.	在中国各地,或许也在世界各地。
382	Thank you very much.	谢谢
383	And thank you Dr. K once again.	再次谢谢你K医生
384	Thank you all for the invitation and for some great questions.	感谢大家的邀请和一些伟大的问题。
385	It was a pleasure.	很荣幸

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