掀开波澜壮阔的人类迁徙史，耶鲁历史学教授带你“穿越”回孟加拉
字幕摘录
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 0:04 | Well good morning for those of you joining from the U.S. and good afternoon if you're from | 早上好,你们从美国来,下午好 |
| 0:11 | somewhere else and good evening if you're in China. | 换个地方,晚上好 如果你在中国。 |
| 0:14 | So by way of introduction my name is Devon Lau, | 所以作为介绍 我叫德云刘 |
| 0:16 | I am the Assistant Director for Yale Center Beijing. | 我是耶鲁北京中心助理主任 |
| 0:19 | For those of you that are unfamiliar, | 你们中不熟悉的人, |
| 0:21 | Yale Center Beijing has been around since 2014 as Yale University's first and only | 耶鲁中心 北京自2014年以来一直是耶鲁大学的首个 也是唯一的 |
| 0:28 | university-wide center outside of New Haven and of course during the pandemic we've transitioned | 纽黑文市外的全大学中心 当然,在这场大流行期间 我们已经转型了 |
| 0:34 | to as everybody else has to Zoom activities online. | 就像其他人一样 在网上缩小活动范围 |
| 0:37 | So now we're a year and a half almost | 现在我们快一年半了 |
| 0:39 | two years now of Zoom activities. | 两年了,Zoom活动。 |
展开字幕全文（702 条）
| 序号 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Well good morning for those of you joining from the U.S. and good afternoon if you're from | 早上好,你们从美国来,下午好 |
| 2 | somewhere else and good evening if you're in China. | 换个地方,晚上好 如果你在中国。 |
| 3 | So by way of introduction my name is Devon Lau, | 所以作为介绍 我叫德云刘 |
| 4 | I am the Assistant Director for Yale Center Beijing. | 我是耶鲁北京中心助理主任 |
| 5 | For those of you that are unfamiliar, | 你们中不熟悉的人, |
| 6 | Yale Center Beijing has been around since 2014 as Yale University's first and only | 耶鲁中心 北京自2014年以来一直是耶鲁大学的首个 也是唯一的 |
| 7 | university-wide center outside of New Haven and of course during the pandemic we've transitioned | 纽黑文市外的全大学中心 当然,在这场大流行期间 我们已经转型了 |
| 8 | to as everybody else has to Zoom activities online. | 就像其他人一样 在网上缩小活动范围 |
| 9 | So now we're a year and a half almost | 现在我们快一年半了 |
| 10 | two years now of Zoom activities. | 两年了,Zoom活动。 |
| 11 | Hopefully we can end that soon and have some professors | 希望我们能尽快结束 并有一些教授 |
| 12 | visiting China soon. | 不久访华. |
| 13 | But we've been lucky enough to have a host be the host of many many professors | 但是我们很幸运能有一位主持人 担任许多教授的主持人 |
| 14 | from a wide variety of subjects including as you saw in some of our previous videos astronomy and | 包括你从我们之前的一些视频中看到的天文学和 |
| 15 | music and drama a lot of history and philosophy and economics as well and of course the hard | 音乐和戏剧 很多历史 哲学和经济学 当然还有困难 |
| 16 | sciences. | 科学。 |
| 17 | And so we our goal is to bring the best of Yale to our audience in China and through the | 因此我们的目标是 将耶鲁大学最好的部分 带给我们在中国的观众 通过 |
| 18 | magic of Zoom now basically a global audience. | Zoom的魔力现在基本上是全球观众。 |
| 19 | And so that's I think very appropriate for today's | 因此,我认为非常适合今天 |
| 20 | topic which is talking about the Bay of Bengal which has historically been a rather international | 孟加拉湾在历史上是一个相当国际性的 |
| 21 | port of exchange or place of exchange. | 交换港或交换地。 |
| 22 | And so we're lucky to have Professor Sunil Amrith. | 我们很幸运有苏尼尔·阿姆里斯教授 |
| 23 | Let me introduce him real quick and then turn my time over to him. | 让我介绍一下他 然后把我的时间交给他 |
| 24 | Professor Sunil Amrith is the | 苏尼尔·阿姆里斯教授 |
| 25 | Renu and Arnett Dawan Professor of History at Yale. | 雷努和阿内特·达万在耶鲁任历史教授. |
| 26 | He received his post-secondary education | 他接受了中学后教育 |
| 27 | 剑桥大学的Mira Family教授 | |
| 28 | Asian History at Harvard starting in 2015. | 2015年开始在哈佛的亚洲历史. |
| 29 | His research focuses on modern South Asia, Southeast | 他的研究重点是现代南亚,东南地区. |
| 30 | Asia as well as Indian Ocean history and he's actually since expanded to basically cover | 亚洲和印度洋的历史,他实际上从那时开始扩张到基本覆盖 |
| 31 | exchange of ideas and people and what have you all around the world. | 交流思想和人 以及你们在世界各地的一切 |
| 32 | He was named a MacArthur fellow | 他叫麦克阿瑟 |
| 33 | in 2017 as well as was awarded the Infosys Prize in Humanities for his contributions to the field | 2017年,并因其对领域的贡献而获得Infosys人文奖 |
| 34 | history in as I mentioned migration, environmental history, and the history of | 正如我提到移徙、环境历史和 |
| 35 | international public health and of course contemporary Asia. | 国际公共卫生,当然还有当代亚洲。 |
| 36 | And so we're very lucky | 所以我们很幸运 |
| 37 | to have him here today. | 他今天来这 |
| 38 | I myself was a history major at Yale so I'm very excited to be able | 我本人是耶鲁大学历史系主修,所以我非常兴奋 |
| 39 | to engage with Professor Amrith on this topic of the Bay of Bengal and history and also today we | 与Amrith教授就孟加拉湾和历史这个专题进行接触,今天,我们也参与 |
| 40 | are very lucky to have Zhejiang People's Publishing House which is the Chinese publisher of the | 浙江人民出版社是中国出版商 |
| 41 | Chinese translation of Professor Amrith's book. | 阿姆里斯教授著作的中文译名. |
| 42 | They have offered to give the first five participants | 他们主动提出给前五名参与者 |
| 43 | in our discussion a free copy of the book in Chinese and so get your questions ready. | 在我们的讨论中,免费的 这本书的中文副本, 所以让你的问题准备好。 |
| 44 | I will | 我会的 |
| 45 | say though that they should be good quality questions and not just random questions and I | 说他们应该是质量好的问题 不只是随机的问题和我 |
| 46 | guess I will be the arbiter of that. | 我想我会成为那个的仲裁者。 |
| 47 | So anyway without further ado here is Professor Amrith. | 所以,不管怎样,这里没有进一步的征兆是 Amrith教授。 |
| 48 | He will talk for about 10 minutes to 10 to 15 minutes and then we'll open it up for discussion. | 他约10分钟到10至15分钟,然后我们开始讨论。 |
| 49 | Thank you Devin. | 谢谢你,德文 |
| 50 | Thank you so much for having me. | 谢谢你邀请我 |
| 51 | I'm really pleased to be here with all of you. | 我很高兴能和你们在一起 |
| 52 | I | 一、导 言 |
| 53 | hope one day to visit Yale Center Beijing in person but for now it's really nice to be able | 希望有一天能亲自参观耶鲁中心 北京,但现在真的很棒 |
| 54 | to connect across distance. | 以连接跨距离。 |
| 55 | So I've only been at Yale for a year. | 所以我在耶鲁只呆了一年 |
| 56 | As Devin mentioned I moved | 就像德文提到的那样 我搬家了 |
| 57 | here from Harvard last June right in the middle of the pandemic and I'd be very happy to talk | 今年六月从哈佛来的 就在大流行的时候 我很乐意跟你谈谈 |
| 58 | not only about my book and my work but also the kind of work that we're doing at Yale on | 不仅关于我的书和我的作品 还有我们在耶鲁的作品 |
| 59 | Asian studies, Asian history. | 亚洲研究 亚洲历史. |
| 60 | I feel one of the reasons I chose to come here from Harvard was I | 我觉得我选择从哈佛来的原因之一是 |
| 61 | like Yale was a very dynamic place to study the connections between Asian societies and that has | 就像耶鲁是一个非常活跃的地方, 研究亚洲社会之间的联系 并且已经 |
| 62 | proven very much the case. | 事实已经证明 |
| 63 | We have some very lively programming hopefully once again on campus coming | 我们有一些非常活跃的节目 希望再次在校园来 |
| 64 | from this fall. | 从这个秋季。 |
| 65 | Wonderful graduate students from China, from Southeast Asia, from India who are | 来自中国、东南亚、印度的优秀研究生 |
| 66 | doing incredible work and it's a privilege to work with them. | 做令人难以置信的工作 和他们合作是一种荣幸。 |
| 67 | I'd be very happy to talk to all of you | 我很乐意跟大家谈谈 |
| 68 | about the kind of plans we have here on campus. | 关于我们校园里的计划 |
| 69 | One of my roles at Yale is I'm chair of the South | 我在耶鲁的一个角色是 南方的主席 |
| 70 | Asian Studies Council but I work very closely with my counterparts in East Asian studies and | 亚洲研究理事会,但我与东亚研究的同行密切合作, |
| 71 | in Southeast Asian studies and one of our goals is actually to think beyond some of those boundaries | 在东南亚的研究中,我们的目标之一是 超越某些界限思考 |
| 72 | in the way that we both teach and study Asia and Asian history and Asian contemporary societies | 我们教授和研究亚洲、亚洲历史和亚洲当代社会的方式 |
| 73 | and I feel like this is a promising moment to be able to do that. | 我觉得这是一个很有希望的时刻 能够做到这一点。 |
| 74 | So that is a transition to my | 所以,这是一个过渡 我的 |
| 75 | own work and one of the key things in all of the work that I have done has been to try to | 我所做的所有工作的关键之一,就是努力 |
| 76 | in my case particularly think about the links between India and Southeast Asia | 尤其考虑到印度与东南亚的联系 |
| 77 | because in academic scholarship especially in the West I would say there's been a tradition | 因为在学术奖学金,特别是在西方,我会说,有一个传统 |
| 78 | to really divide Asia into South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia and these develop quite separately | * 将亚洲真正划分为南亚、东南亚、东亚,它们发展得相当独立 |
| 79 | from one another certainly in the 1960s and 70s most of the 20th century. | 在20世纪60年代和70年代的大部分时间里 彼此之间肯定都有关系 |
| 80 | Not a lot of dialogue | 没有太多的对话 |
| 81 | across these different what we call area studies and I think that's really started to change over | 我们称之为地区研究的这些不同之处 我认为这真的开始改变 |
| 82 | the last 10 or 15 years and one reason that's changed is because the world is changing because | 过去10年或15年 改变的原因之一是世界在变化 因为 |
| 83 | we can see so many new kinds of connections between Asian societies in ways that mean I think | 我们可以看到许多亚洲社会之间 新的联系方式 意味着我认为 |
| 84 | it's more important than ever to understand some of the history of their connections. | 现在比任何时候都更需要了解他们关系的一些历史。 |
| 85 | So since the beginning of the last decade maybe the 2000s we've heard a lot about the Indian Ocean | 因此,从上个十年开始,也许2000年代 我们听说过很多关于印度洋。 |
| 86 | or maybe sometimes it's called the Indo-Pacific as a very important new arena economically, | 也许有时它被称为印度-太平洋 作为一个非常重要的新舞台 经济上, |
| 87 | geopolitically, environmentally and what led me to write this book Crossing the Bay of Bengal | 从地缘政治、环境以及是什么原因让我写了这本书 《跨越孟加拉湾》 |
| 88 | which I'm delighted has just been translated into Chinese what led me to write it was I wanted to | 我很高兴刚刚被翻译成中文 是什么让我写它,我想 |
| 89 | make the point that this is not the emergence of a region it is the re-emergence of a region | 指出这不是一个区域的出现 而是一个区域的重新出现 |
| 90 | and what I wanted to point out was that this Indian Ocean region has a very very long history | 我想指出的是 这个印度洋地区 有着很长的历史 |
| 91 | of being a connected space and these connections stretch all the way from China in the East to | 这些连接从东方的中国一直延伸到 |
| 92 | the Middle East in the West and this was a very very deeply intercultural multi-religious | 西方的中东,这是一个非常深刻的文化间多宗教 |
| 93 | multi-linguistic space and it was that long before the Europeans came to Asia. | 多语言空间 早在欧洲人来到亚洲之前 |
| 94 | It was already a very if you like a globalized space a place of intensive trading connections | 如果你喜欢全球化的空间 成为紧密贸易联系的场所 |
| 95 | where very important port cities again all the way from from Guangzhou to Basra | 从广州到巴士拉 又是重要的港口城市 |
| 96 | in what is now Iraq were connected with one another through many many many short trading | 现在的伊拉克通过许多短期交易 彼此联系在一起 |
| 97 | journeys that crossed the entire Indian Ocean going back a thousand years or more than that much | 穿越整个印度洋的旅程可以追溯到一千年或更长的时间 |
| 98 | more than that. | 不止这样 |
| 99 | So my question was how do we understand how this region has changed over time | 所以,我的问题是,我们如何理解这个区域 如何随着时间的变化 |
| 100 | that in some periods of history it has been very connected in other periods it has not been very | 在历史上的某些时期,它与其他时期的联系非常密切。 |
| 101 | connected. | 连接。 |
| 102 | So the low point of connection in the Indian Ocean was actually the second half of the | 所以印度洋的低点 实际上是下半部分 |
| 103 | 20th century from the 1950s to maybe the 1990s or the early 2000s connections across the Indian | 20世纪50年代到90年代 或2000年代早期的印度人 |
| 104 | Ocean region were at a low point historically at a low point and one of my questions is how do we | 海洋地区在历史上处于低点 我的一个问题就是我们如何 |
| 105 | explain first of all how those connections faded away and then how they have re-emerged. | 首先解释这些联系是如何消失的,然后又是如何重新出现。 |
| 106 | So what | 那又怎样? |
| 107 | the long-term patterns that we can see in the development of this area and in this book Crossing | 在发展这个领域和本书中可以看到的长远模式 |
| 108 | the Bay of Bengal I wanted to highlight two key themes one was migration and my argument was that | 我想强调两个关键主题,一个是移徙,我的论点是: |
| 109 | the eastern part of the Indian Ocean which we call the Bay of Bengal was one of the most intensive | 我们称之为孟加拉湾的印度洋东部 是最密集的地区之一 |
| 110 | spaces of human movement in the world that in global historical terms especially in the 19th | 全球特别是19世纪人类运动的空间 |
| 111 | century the Bay of Bengal region sees one of the largest migrations of people in human history | 孟加拉湾是人类历史上最大的移民之一 |
| 112 | and one of the things that always surprises my American colleagues is when I tell them | 总是让我的美国同事惊讶的一件事 就是当我告诉他们 |
| 113 | that the same number of people cross the Bay of Bengal as cross the Atlantic and of course here | 同一人数的人跨越孟加拉湾 和大西洋,当然在这里 |
| 114 | in the US the transatlantic migration is such an important part of one's understanding of America | 在美国,跨大西洋移民是了解美国的重要部分 |
| 115 | and American history and that is seen as you know if you like the classic migration just as many | 和美国的历史, 和这被视为你知道,如果你喜欢 经典的移民 一样多 |
| 116 | were moving from India and also from China to Southeast Asia at the same time and so I think | 正在从印度和中国同时向东南亚移动 所以我想 |
| 117 | one of my interventions here was to take a more global perspective of migration history | 我在这里的发言之一是从全球角度看待移徙历史 |
| 118 | and to understand that Asia particularly Southeast Asia which is like the crossroads between | 并理解亚洲,特别是东南亚, 就象十字路口 |
| 119 | East Asia and South Asia is really at the heart of that story and this is just to give you an | 东亚和南亚是这个故事的核心,这只是给你一个 |
| 120 | example of this is taken from the shipping map of from around 1900 and you can see just how closely | 这个例子取自1900年左右的航运地图 你可以看到有多近 |
| 121 | connected these ports are on one estimate something like 29 million passenger journeys | 连接这些港口的一个估计是2900万次旅客旅行 |
| 122 | were sort of connecting at these ports from the 1870s until the 1930s so this is a place of a | 从1870年代到1930年代 这些港口的连接 |
| 123 | vast migration the other point I wanted to make was what I started but the idea that if we think | 我想谈的另一点是 我开始的想法是 如果我们认为 |
| 124 | about South Asia and Southeast Asia as completely distinct then we we miss this story my starting | 南亚和东南亚是完全不同的 然后我们错过这个故事 |
| 125 | point was in South India which is the part of India that I have studied most intensively | 南印度是我研究最深入的印度地区 |
| 126 | and the whole of this book the whole of this project began with something like a thought | 整个书里 整个项目都从一个想法开始 |
| 127 | experiment and my thought was what if we thought of South India as part of Southeast Asia as much | 如果把南印度当成东南亚的一部分 |
| 128 | as it is part of India because that is really historically what it was that for many people | 因为它是印度的一部分, 因为这是真正的历史 它曾经是许多人 |
| 129 | particularly in these coastal towns from Madras what is now Chennai all the way down to the | 特别是从马德拉斯来的这些沿海城镇 现在的钦奈一直到 |
| 130 | southern coast their mental map their family connections their opportunities they were more | 南海岸 他们的精神地图 他们的家庭联系 他们的机会更多 |
| 131 | likely to be across the sea in Southeast Asia than in any other part of India it's only after | 东南亚的海面可能比印度其他任何地方都大 只有在之后 |
| 132 | Indian independence in the 1940s that that sort of reorients inwards so if you took a census in | 20世纪40年代的印度独立, 那种方向调整 内部,所以如果你接受人口普查 |
| 133 | 1900 even in 1920 there would be more people from this part of South India there would be more | 1900年甚至1920年 南印度这个地区的人会更多 |
| 134 | people from South India living in Singapore in Rangoon in Penang than in any other Indian city | 住在新加坡槟城的南印度人 比其他印度城市都多 |
| 135 | more than you had in Bombay more than you had in Delhi they were going across to Southeast Asia | 比你在孟买还多,比在德里还多 他们要去东南亚 |
| 136 | and what struck me was that we've completely lost the ability to see that world because we are so | 令我惊讶的是,我们完全失去了看到这个世界的能力,因为我们是如此 |
| 137 | accustomed of course to the idea that South India is primarily connected to India and much | 南印度主要与印度有关 |
| 138 | less so with Southeast Asia so my argument is that the further back you go in history the more | 东南亚的情况就不是这样了 所以我的论点是 你越往前走越远 |
| 139 | these kinds of puzzles emerge and I feel that remembering this can help us to understand why | 我觉得记住这些能帮助我们理解为什么 |
| 140 | this region re-emerges in the 2000s as such an important space of not just economic but also | 该地区在2000年代重新出现,不仅是一个经济的重要空间,而且还是一个经济的重要空间。 |
| 141 | cultural connections the other main theme in this work was environmental history | 本文的另一个主题是环境史 |
| 142 | environmental history is a major growth area in my discipline for obvious reasons I think a lot of | 环境历史是我学科中的一大增长领域 因为明显的原因 我认为很多 |
| 143 | us are interested in some of the historical context for the environmental crises that we face so we're | 我们感兴趣的是一些历史背景 环境危机,我们面对,所以我们 |
| 144 | interested in charting the the origins of some of the choices that were made that have now left | 有兴趣绘制一些选择的起源 |
| 145 | many people very vulnerable to rising sea levels and storm searches and many other | 许多人非常容易受到海平面升高和风暴搜查的影响,还有许多人因海平面升高和风暴肆虐而丧生。 |
| 146 | kinds of problems so the last part of this book Crossing the Bay of Bengal took me into this | 所以这本书的最后一部分 跨越孟加拉湾 把我带到这里 |
| 147 | question of environmental history and how actually climate is one of the connecting factors in the | 环境历史问题,以及气候实际上如何是 |
| 148 | Indian Ocean that there is a shared vulnerability to cyclones or typhoons by the time you get into | 印度洋在进入时 都容易受气旋或台风侵袭 |
| 149 | the South China Sea that there is the opportunity to share knowledge and to share expertise when it | 分享知识与专业知识的机会 |
| 150 | so just to sort of take the story forward a little bit I published this book in English about eight | 我用英语出版了这本书 大约八本 |
| 151 | years ago though it's just been translated into Chinese after that I went on to write a book called | 几年前,虽然它刚刚被翻译成中文 之后,我继续写一本书,叫做 |
| 152 | Unruly Waters which came out just a couple of years ago happily that that's also going to be | 不守规矩的Waters 几年前刚出来 很高兴那也会是 |
| 153 | translated into Chinese in the next year or two and this takes forward that environmental history | 接下来的一年或两年中翻译成中文 这预示着环境史 |
| 154 | story and it argues really picking up from the end of Crossing the Bay of Bengal that one of the | 在孟加拉湾的尽头 发现其中之一 |
| 155 | connecting factors across this entire region is exactly the monsoon is the climatic patterns | 整个地区的连结因素 正是季风是气候模式 |
| 156 | that have made various kinds of economic and trading connections possible going back hundreds | 使各种经济和贸易联系可以追溯到数百年 |
| 157 | of years but which you know the 20th century and certainly in our own century also pose new kinds | 20世纪,当然在我们自己的世纪, 也带来了新的事物 |
| 158 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}而且真的需要新的合作形式 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}我觉得在中国 | |
| 159 | I was initially surprised that there was interest to translate this work and then I came to realize | 我起初惊讶于有人有兴趣翻译这部作品,后来我意识到 |
| 160 | from an increasing number of academic interactions I've had with China that China's really become a | 从越来越多的学术互动 我与中国有过,中国真的成为一个 |
| 161 | really major center for study of the Indian Ocean and there is in in Shenzhen there is a center for | 真正的印度洋研究中心 在深圳有一个中心 |
| 162 | Bay of Bengal studies there's no such center in all of India so it's very interesting that there | 孟加拉湾的研究 整个印度都没有这样的中心 所以那里很有趣 |
| 163 | is a sort of recognition and an interest in this part of the world in China also in Korea | 是对中国和韩国的承认和关心 |
| 164 | certainly in places like Singapore which I feel like there's a sort of new kind of knowledge | 当然,在新加坡这样的地方 我觉得有种新的知识 |
| 165 | that's being produced within the region about these interconnections and about this region but | 正在区域内生产 有关这些互联 和关于这个区域 |
| 166 | I did find it very interesting that there's a center for Bay of Bengal studies in Shenzhen | 我觉得在深圳有个孟加拉湾学习中心很有趣 |
| 167 | and nowhere in India so I think this is you know in some ways you could almost argue that | 在印度的任何地方,所以我想这是 你知道在某些方面 你几乎可以争论 |
| 168 | India has been the last to recognize these histories and these connections across the | 印度是最后承认这些历史和这些联系的国家。 |
| 169 | couple of minutes and I'm really happy to talk about any aspect of this work. | 几分钟,我很高兴 谈论任何方面的工作。 |
| 170 | I just want to | 我只想这样 |
| 171 | say a little bit about what we're doing at Yale which is that not only do we have our regional | 说说我们在耶鲁的工作 不仅仅是我们的地区 |
| 172 | studies councils we also have an inter-Asia initiative which is directed by my colleagues | 我们还有一项亚洲间倡议,由我的同事指导。 |
| 173 | 人类学教授Helen Su和K.Shivaramakrishnan以及亚洲间倡议 | |
| 174 | is all about trying to join up these dots is trying to share expertise across these different | 这些点试图分享这些不同的专业知识 |
| 175 | areas studies and I work very closely with my colleague Professor Eric Harms who's head of the | 我和同事Eric Harms教授非常密切地合作 他的主管 |
| 176 | Southeast Asian Studies Council and you know one of our common interests for example is in Myanmar | 东南亚研究理事会和你知道我们的共同利益之一是在缅甸 |
| 177 | and thinking you know well what can Yale do to you know to promote peace in Myanmar and very | 你很清楚耶鲁能做什么 来推动缅甸的和平 |
| 178 | troubled times there because Myanmar is a classic example of one of those countries | 因为缅甸是其中一个典型的例子, |
| 179 | which it was ruled by the British as part of India but now we think of it as very much part | 它被英国统治为印度的一部分 但现在我们把它视为 |
| 180 | of Southeast Asia not as South Asia. | 东南亚不是南亚。 |
| 181 | It's a classic case of a country that's at the boundary | 这是一个典型的例子 一个国家的边界 |
| 182 | of those regional studies and sometimes in fact I would say that Myanmar has been really ignored | 事实上,我想说缅甸确实被忽视了。 |
| 183 | by scholars at least in the West partly because it falls across those boundaries so one of the | 至少西方的学者 部分地是因为它跨越了这些边界 |
| 184 | things we're trying to do is to pay attention to places like Myanmar which maybe are very much at | 我们想做的是关注缅甸这样的地方 也许非常喜欢 |
| 185 | the crossroads between South India oh South Asia and Southeast Asia you know there was a book about | 南印度和东南亚之间的十字路口 你知道有一本书 |
| 186 | Myanmar written by Kant Min Thieu who is a historian also major political figure in the region | 康德敏撰写的缅甸文 Thieu也是这个地区的主要政治人物 |
| 187 | who wrote he called his book Where India and China Meet and that was his sort of take on Myanmar as | 他把书叫做《印度与中国的相遇》 这是他对缅甸的看法 |
| 188 | a place which is strategically and economically important precisely because it is a meeting point | 一个战略上和经济上都很重要的地方,因为它是一个会场 |
| 189 | as it also was historically between not just India and China as nations but also between | 在历史上,印度和中国不仅作为国家,而且作为国家 |
| 190 | Indian and Chinese diasporas and migrants and one of the key things in my work is actually that if we | 印度和中国的侨民和移民 以及我工作的关键之一 实际上,如果我们 |
| 191 | think about the long history of both the Indian and Chinese diasporas their meetings that their | 想想印度和中国散居地的悠久历史 |
| 192 | meeting points were mostly in Southeast Asia places like Malaysia Myanmar even even Indonesia | 开会地点大多在东南亚,如马来西亚、缅甸甚至印度尼西亚。 |
| 193 | to some extent even Vietnam there are ways in which we can understand the interactions between | 在某种程度上,即使是越南,我们也有办法 来理解彼此之间的相互作用 |
| 194 | Indian and Chinese societies not just if we're thinking about the level of international | 印度和中国社会不只是在思考国际水平 |
| 195 | relations and state to state relations but very much a kind of people to people relations that | 关系和状态 国家关系 但在很大程度上是一种人与人的关系 |
| 196 | happens because both of these countries have such large and extensive diasporas and migrants | 这两个国家的侨民和移民人数如此之多, |
| 197 | going back hundreds of years that very often shared space and came to all sorts of cultural | 几百年前, 经常分享空间 来到各种文化 |
| 198 | interactions in the port cities of Southeast Asia so these are some of the big themes in my work and | 东南亚港口城市的互动,所以这些是我作品中的一些大主题, |
| 199 | teaching here at Gale thinking about migration thinking about environmental history but also | 在Gale教书 思考移民 思考环境历史 |
| 200 | thinking about regions in a slightly different way thinking about how we can cross some of those | 思考区域的方式略有不同 思考我们如何跨越其中的一些 |
| 201 | barriers between the study of East Asia Southeast Asia and South Asia in ways that I think are more | 东亚东南亚和南亚研究之间的障碍,我认为更多 |
| 202 | important than ever I think if we want to understand many of the key challenges facing Asia today | 我想如果我们想了解亚洲今天面临的许多关键挑战, |
| 203 | environmental challenges geopolitical challenges we need to think big and we need to be able to | 环境挑战 地缘政治挑战 我们需要思考 大,我们需要能够 |
| 204 | across some of those boundaries that I think have often limited our vision and limited our | 我认为,在其中的一些边界上,我们往往限制了我们的远见,限制了我们的发展。 |
| 205 | understanding over the past several decades so I'll stop my presentation part there but very happy | 过去几十年的理解,所以我将停止我的 陈述部分在那里,但非常高兴 |
| 206 | as I say to pick up on anything really that you would all like to like to talk about thank you. | 正如我所说的,收起你们想谈的 任何真的,谢谢。 |
| 207 | Great thanks so much and so now we're going to transition into time of Q&A so anybody that has | 非常感谢,所以现在我们要去 过渡到QQA时代 所以任何人都有 |
| 208 | questions as Professor Emery mentioned about his book about his other fields of interest | Emery教授提到他关于他其他兴趣领域的书的问题 |
| 209 | as well as just the study of Asia as a whole at Yale please feel free to ask and once again | 以及耶鲁大学对整个亚洲的研究 请随意再问一次 |
| 210 | the first five people to ask a question Zhejiang People's Publishing House has | 浙江省人民出版社前五人曾问过一个问题 |
| 211 | graciously agreed to send a copy of Professor Emery's Chinese translated book to them so | 慷慨地同意把爱默里教授的中文译本 寄给他们 |
| 212 | I see we have a jewel in the chat box so during the COVID pandemic we can see that people worldwide | 我看到我们有一个宝石 在聊天盒 所以,在COVID大流行 我们可以看到,全世界的人 |
| 213 | manage the issue in very different ways from your perspective how do cultures influence people's | 从你的角度来管理这个问题 文化如何影响人们 |
| 214 | behavior to handle COVID and how can we leverage the power of culture to solve public health issues? | 如何利用文化的力量来解决公共卫生问题? |
| 215 | That's a great question funnily enough it takes me back to my first book which I haven't talked | 这是一个很好的问题,足够有趣 它带我回我的第一本书 我还没有说话 |
| 216 | about here and in fact that was a history of of international public health in South and Southeast | 和事实上,这是国际公共卫生史 在南部和东南部 |
| 217 | Asia and goes back to my doctoral work so it was very very very long time ago but this is a great | 亚洲,回到我的博士工作 所以这是非常 很久以前,但这是一个伟大的 |
| 218 | question because I think COVID is a you know if you if ever historian or political scientist wanted | 因为我认为COVID是... ...你知道,如果历史学家或政治学家想要 |
| 219 | a kind of natural experiment to show how much culture and political culture matters you only | 一种自然的实验 来显示你对文化和政治文化的 重视程度 |
| 220 | need to look at how neighboring countries across the world have dealt with this pandemic. | 需要审视世界各地邻国如何应对这一大流行病。 |
| 221 | Just take | 拿着 |
| 222 | one very clear example which I've just been reading about Sweden and Norway. | 一个非常清楚的例子,我刚刚读到 关于瑞典和挪威。 |
| 223 | We think of Sweden and | 我们想到瑞典和 |
| 224 | Norway as the opposite approaches to the pandemic. | 挪威是对付这种流行病的相反办法。 |
| 225 | Sweden probably at sort of one extreme in the world | 瑞典可能处于世界的极端 |
| 226 | decided to do very little. | 决定做很少。 |
| 227 | The Swedish state decided we're just going to let this we're not | 瑞典政府决定让我们不要 |
| 228 | going to do too much. | 会做太多。 |
| 229 | Norway took a much more careful cautious approach and I think you see | 挪威采取了更为谨慎的态度,我认为你看到了 |
| 230 | the same thing across the world that countries that may seem to be quite close together have | 全世界似乎关系相当密切的国家也一样 |
| 231 | opted for very different paths in this and so I think culture can help to explain it but probably | 选择了非常不同的路径, 所以我认为文化可以帮助解释它,但也许 |
| 232 | even more than that is that sort of relationship between culture and politics or culture and the | 更何况文化与政治或文化之间的关系 |
| 233 | particular political choices that any society wants to make and I think we can see you know | 任何社会都想做出特别的政治选择 我想我们可以看到 |
| 234 | societies across Asia even just to use the subregional example have had different strategies | 亚洲各国社会甚至只是以次区域为例,有不同的战略 |
| 235 | yes but also more broadly than that different approaches to risk. | 但也比这种不同的风险处理方法更广泛。 |
| 236 | If you think about it you | 如果你考虑一下 |
| 237 | know there are some countries in Asia which are extremely dependent on tourism. | 了解亚洲一些国家极其依赖旅游业。 |
| 238 | Thailand comes to | 泰国来 |
| 239 | my mind and you know in some sense it stands to reason that they are the first who are thinking | 我的思想和你知道,从某种意义上说,这是有理由的,他们是第一个在想 |
| 240 | of opening up there. | 打开那里。 |
| 241 | Phuket for example is now I think open to vaccinated travelers and there are | 比方说,普吉现在对接种疫苗的旅行者是开放的。 |
| 242 | some parts and Bali is thinking of the same but there's a risk of course attached to that and | 有些地方和巴厘岛也有同样的想法,但当然有风险。 |
| 243 | even within these countries I think there's some unease about whether it's too soon about whether | 即使在这些国家,我觉得有些不安 关于是否太早了 |
| 244 | it's too quick whether this is a good idea. | 这是否是一个好主意太快了。 |
| 245 | I mean I think more broadly the power of culture in | 我的意思是,我认为更广泛的 文化的力量在 |
| 246 | addressing public health concerns particularly this particular public health concern that we | 解决公共卫生问题,特别是我们 |
| 247 | all share is enormous but culture also changes slowly. | 所有份额都是巨大的,但文化也缓慢变化。 |
| 248 | I mean I think this is one of the things | 我的意思是,我觉得这是一件事 |
| 249 | that it can be difficult to change mindsets very quickly. | 很难很快改变心态。 |
| 250 | I think there has been a certain sort of | 我认为有某种 |
| 251 | path dependency in some societies so for example one point that has been raised is that a lot of | 在一些社会中,对路径的依赖性,例如,有人提出一个问题,即: |
| 252 | the societies in Asia that acted most quickly against the pandemic including China and Singapore | 包括中国和新加坡在内的亚洲社会迅速采取行动防治这种流行病 |
| 253 | and a few others they had the experience of SARS. | 还有其他几个有非典经历的人 |
| 254 | They had the experience over the past 15 or 20 | 他们过去15到20年的经验 |
| 255 | years of other kinds of pandemics and that this led to certain tools but also certain fears about | 这些疾病导致某些工具,但也使人们担心: |
| 256 | how quickly this spread and if you look at societies that were very slow to act a lot of | 如此之快的传播 如果你看看那些 行动缓慢的社会 |
| 257 | European societies certainly the United States it's been a little while since they had a direct | 欧洲社会当然是美国 自从他们有直接的 |
| 258 | experience of this kind of pandemic. | 经历这种流行病。 |
| 259 | There's a certain complacency perhaps certainly in the | 也许有某种自满感 |
| 260 | US there's been a sort of underfunding of the public health apparatus because of a sense that | 美国的公共卫生机构经费不足,因为... |
| 261 | these problems maybe are not so urgent they're not so immediate and that's certainly not been | 这些问题也许不是那么急迫 它们不是那么急迫 |
| 262 | the case in Asia. | 亚洲的情况。 |
| 263 | So I think we've seen we've also seen some surprises. | 所以,我想我们已经看到了 我们也看到了一些惊喜。 |
| 264 | I was very surprised at | 我很惊讶 |
| 265 | India's sudden lockdown because the Indian government has tended not to have the power | 印度突然被封锁,因为印度政府往往没有权力 |
| 266 | or the capacity to do that but the idea that this lockdown happened with just a few hours notice | 或有能力做到这一点, 但这个想法,这个锁 发生仅仅几个小时的通知 |
| 267 | it was one of the most sort of sudden and quickly imposed lockdowns. | 这是最突然和快速的封锁之一。 |
| 268 | Even as a historian of India | 即使作为印度的历史学家 |
| 269 | someone who's been studying and indeed spending time in India all my life I found that surprising. | 一个一直在印度学习的人 我一生都在印度度过 |
| 270 | I did not see that coming so I think there are also ways in which there's been some unexpected | 我没想到会这样 所以我觉得也有些事情出乎意料 |
| 271 | twists in all of this but so I think it's a great question. | 曲折的这一切, 但我认为这是一个伟大的问题。 |
| 272 | I think it's something that | 我觉得这是一件 |
| 273 | we will all be pondering and studying for for many many years to come. | 我们都会思考和研究多年 |
| 274 | Great thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 275 | Great | 不错 |
| 276 | question. | 问题。 |
| 277 | Simon had his hand up so let's have Simon here. | 西蒙举起手来,我们把西蒙抓来 |
| 278 | Professor Amrith, I mean nice to see you | 阿姆里斯教授,很高兴见到你 |
| 279 | again. | 再来 |
| 280 | I don't know if you remember me but it's very nice to hear you talk about your book and | 我不知道你是否记得我 但很高兴听到你谈论你的书 |
| 281 | to your Chinese audience. | 给您的中国观众。 |
| 282 | I'm just wondering like obviously when I was in school and | 我只是在想 很明显 当我在学校的时候 |
| 283 | taking your classes and the world was different right we were very much | 上你的课,世界是不同的 我们非常喜欢 |
| 284 | marching towards globalization a very kind of harmonious | 走向全球化 |
| 285 | globally connected world and I think that kind of those kind of impacted academia by kind of | 全球联系的世界 我认为这种影响 学术界的方式 |
| 286 | interesting more scholars to study kind of cultural interactions and connections between | 有趣的是,更多的学者研究了文化互动和联系 |
| 287 | regions in the world whereas today we're in a different world almost. | 而今天我们几乎处于一个不同的世界。 |
| 288 | I'm just wondering | 我只是想问 |
| 289 | how much like when you are studying a history of connections how much kind of divisions or | 你研究联系史时 有多少类型的分裂或 |
| 290 | identity politics conflicts were a part of the history of connection and also whether | 身份政治冲突是联系史的一部分,是否 |
| 291 | like in the world today do you do you feel like the academic research is | 就像今天的世界 你是否觉得学术研究是 |
| 292 | kind of heading towards another direction of kind of studying difference studying conflicts | 那种走向另一种方向 研究差异 研究冲突 |
| 293 | how people develop animosity for each other. | 人们如何彼此产生敌意。 |
| 294 | That's a great question. | 问曰. |
| 295 | Even before this pandemic | 在这场大流行之前 |
| 296 | after the Trump election after Brexit in the UK some historians were very quickly very quick to | 在英国布列克西特之后的特朗普选举之后 一些历史学家很快地 |
| 297 | write editorials saying all of this global history has gone too far you know we missed all of this | 写一篇社论 说这些全球历史都太过了 你知道我们错过了这一切 |
| 298 | because we were just focusing on connections you know we need to we need to study conflict. | 因为我们只是专注于连接 你知道我们需要研究冲突。 |
| 299 | In some ways I think if I think about my own book for example Crossing the Bay of Bengal | 在某些方面,我想,如果我想到我自己的书, 例如跨越孟加拉湾 |
| 300 | that is actually it's as much a story of disconnection as of connection. | 这其实就是断开连接的故事 |
| 301 | If I think of this as a sort of plot I mean the key plot is that this world falls apart | 如果我把这当成一种阴谋 我的意思是关键情节是这个世界会崩溃 |
| 302 | and in that sense it's a very familiar story of rising ethnic conflict rising political tension | 在这个意义上 这是一个非常熟悉的故事 种族冲突不断升级 政治紧张 |
| 303 | borders coming up. | 边界即将升起。 |
| 304 | If I think about you know one of the sort of deep motivations for writing this | 如果我想起来你知道写这个的深层动机之一 |
| 305 | actually some of the worst conflicts in late 20th century Asia if I think of the Sri Lankan | 事实上是20世纪后期亚洲最严重的冲突 如果我想到斯里兰卡 |
| 306 | Civil War and I think of some of the conflicts in Myanmar they have their roots in precisely this | 内战和我想到缅甸的一些冲突 他们的根源就是这个 |
| 307 | moment of sort of middle of the 20th century and the kind of pulling apart of what had been these | 20世纪中叶的一瞬间 和这些东西的分离 |
| 308 | very interconnected societies. | 社会紧密相连。 |
| 309 | So I mean in my sense I think we actually connection and | 所以从我的意义上说 我认为我们真的可以 |
| 310 | disconnection are two sides of the same coin. | 断开是同一枚硬币的两面。 |
| 311 | Whenever you get these periods of intensive | 每当你得到这些紧张时期 |
| 312 | connection there's always a backlash. | 连接总是有反弹。 |
| 313 | I mean there's so much of our current politics and | 我的意思是,有这么多 我们目前的政治和 |
| 314 | discourse that is resonant of these earlier moments where you know when there is a moment | 与这些早期的话题相呼应, |
| 315 | of globalization or opening of course that always comes with its enthusiasts. | 当然,全球化或开放,总是伴随着它的爱好者。 |
| 316 | There are those who | 有些人 |
| 317 | are very celebratory of it and then there are those who feel left behind by these kinds of | 也有人会觉得自己被这些 |
| 318 | connections who feel threatened by these connections. | 被这些联系威胁的人 |
| 319 | If I think about it sort of | 如果我考虑一下 |
| 320 | I feel like that is a pattern that you see repeating itself in different societies and so | 我觉得这是一种模式,你看到的 重复自己在不同的社会,所以 |
| 321 | in my own view it's not so much that historians need to you know to change direction | 在我个人看来,历史学家 并不需要你来改变方向 |
| 322 | but I think they do need to emphasize that whether they're studying connection or disconnection, | 但我认为他们确实需要强调 无论他们在研究连接还是断开 |
| 323 | whether they're studying cosmopolitanism or conflict, that they should always be aware | 无论他们研究的是宇宙主义还是冲突 他们都应该知道 |
| 324 | that these are very double-edged that it's a very sort of two-sided. | 这些是双面的 是一种双面的 |
| 325 | You know so this to the same | 你知道,这是相同的 |
| 326 | extent that I wouldn't want us to become so pessimistic given our current moment where | 我不想让我们如此悲观 鉴于我们目前的时刻 |
| 327 | there are so many barriers between people that we focus sort of exclusively on the histories of | 人与人之间有许多障碍,以至于我们把注意力完全集中在人类的历史上。 |
| 328 | conflict and of border making without realizing that you know those moments also pass. | 冲突与边境制造,而你却不知道这些时刻也过去了。 |
| 329 | Those | 这些 |
| 330 | moments also turn perhaps often to sort of more open moment afterwards. | 之后的瞬间也许也常常会变得更加开放。 |
| 331 | So I think it's more | 所以,我想这是更多的 |
| 332 | thinking about it in terms of cycles, thinking about it in terms of you know the push and pull | 思考周期,思考 思考它,你知道 推和拉 |
| 333 | between the forces of openness and the forces of defensiveness and I think you know it is important | 开放的力量与防御的力量之间 我认为你知道这很重要 |
| 334 | whatever our own views and if I think about my own view of the world I tend to be in favor of | 无论我们自己的看法如何 如果我想到自己对世界的看法 我倾向于赞成 |
| 335 | cultural interaction and very much you know hoping to see a world in which there are fewer barriers | 文化互动 以及你非常清楚的希望 能看到一个障碍较少的世界 |
| 336 | between people. | 人与人之间 |
| 337 | I think it's important for people like me to understand why many people around the | 我觉得像我这样的人必须明白 为什么周围有很多人 |
| 338 | world do feel threatened by that, do feel frightened by that and I think history can help us with that. | 世界确实感受到了这种威胁,确实感到害怕,我认为历史可以帮助我们做到这一点。 |
| 339 | I think history can help us because we have you know almost like case studies that we can go to | 我认为历史可以帮助我们 因为我们知道 几乎像个案研究 我们可以去 |
| 340 | like why is it or at what moment does what seemed to be a sort of moment of flourishing turn into | 就像为什么它或者在什么时刻 似乎繁荣的瞬间变成了 |
| 341 | something different for at least a large part of the population but thank you for the question. | 至少对大部分人口来说是不一样的 但是谢谢你的提问 |
| 342 | Yes thank you Simon, great question. | 是的,谢谢你西蒙,伟大的问题。 |
| 343 | Tomahawk asked a question which I think I can slightly | 托玛霍克问了一个问题,我想我可以略微回答 |
| 344 | elaborate on which is I was fascinated by your discussion of India and South India and how | 我对你们关于印度和南印度的讨论很感兴趣 |
| 345 | actually historically it's you know that region has always seen itself as part of Southeast Asia | 其实在历史上,你知道 该地区一直把自己看作东南亚的一部分 |
| 346 | until very recently. | 直到最近为止 |
| 347 | I think we can make a similar case for places like Guangzhou or Fujian | 我想我们可以给广州或福建 做一个类似的例子 |
| 348 | right where actually those regions in China have always been outward looking historically | 在中国那些地区 从历史上看 一直外向 |
| 349 | and specifically looking to Southeast Asia and so Tomahawk's question was can you elaborate on the | 所以托马霍克的问题是 你能解释一下 |
| 350 | Chinese slash East Asian immigration history in the region and I myself also was drawn to that | 该地区中国的东亚移民史 我本人也被吸引 |
| 351 | parallel so maybe you could since we have a primarily Chinese audience could you talk a | 并列,也许你可以,因为我们有 以中国观众为主,你可以说一个 |
| 352 | little bit more about that? | 再来一点? |
| 353 | It really is a parallel in that this is happening at the same time. | 这确实是一种平行现象,因为它同时发生。 |
| 354 | It's happening under the same historical conditions of sort of transformation. | 它发生在同样的历史条件下 某种转变。 |
| 355 | There are some differences though. | 虽有差别. |
| 356 | The first thing is that the Chinese presence in Southeast Asia | 第一件事是中国在东南亚的存在 |
| 357 | is broader than the Indian presence which is to say that Chinese migrants are going to many more | 比印度更宽广 也就是说,中国移民将走向更多 |
| 358 | places. | 地点 |
| 359 | Indian migrants are tending to stay within the British Empire. | 印度移民倾向于留在大英帝国境内. |
| 360 | They go almost exclusively, | 他们几乎都是这样 |
| 361 | they go to Malaya, they go to Burma, Myanmar, they go to Sri Lanka. | 他们去马来亚,他们去缅甸,缅甸,他们去斯里兰卡。 |
| 362 | Chinese migrants are crossing | 中国移民过境了 |
| 363 | these boundaries. | 这些界限。 |
| 364 | They're going to Thailand, they're going to Vietnam, they're going to the | 他们要去泰国,他们去越南,他们去 |
| 365 | Philippines. | 菲律宾。 |
| 366 | So it's a much more broad-based migration that is going whichever European or | 因此,它是一个更加广泛的 基础迁移,正在去 无论哪个欧洲或 |
| 367 | other powers are ruling you have these Chinese migrant networks that are getting there. | 其他势力正在统治你们 这些中国移民网络正在到达那里。 |
| 368 | In terms | 方面 |
| 369 | of the deeper history I mean both India and China have these long long trading connections with | 我是指印度和中国 有着长久的贸易联系 |
| 370 | Southeast Asia and that's sort of different kind of history that you can trace back hundreds of | 东南亚和这种不同的历史 你可以追溯到几百个 |
| 371 | years. | 岁月 |
| 372 | Think about the history with port cities like Palakka but there are archaeological remains | 想想帕拉卡等港口城市的历史 但还有考古遗迹 |
| 373 | of Hindu temples in Quanzhou going back a thousand years. | 泉州印度教寺庙 千年前 |
| 374 | There are signs of Chinese presence in | 有中国人出现的迹象 |
| 375 | various ports of India again going back a thousand years. | 印度的多个港口 又一次追溯到一千年前 |
| 376 | So these are sort of I think of it as a | 所以,这些是某种类型的 我认为它是一个 |
| 377 | layered history like there's a kind of ancient layer of trading connections mostly merchants | 层层的历史,好像有 一种古老的层次 贸易连接大多商家 |
| 378 | but also Buddhist pilgrimages. | 同时也是佛教的朝圣者。 |
| 379 | There are these religious connections, there are these | 有这些宗教联系,有这些 |
| 380 | trade connections, you know Fasien is traveling all the way from China to India is crossing the | 贸易联系,你知道法西安 一路从中国到印度 |
| 381 | Indian Ocean at a very very early moment and others like them. | 印度洋在很早的时候 和他们一样 |
| 382 | And then you have the kind of mass | 然后你有那种质量 |
| 383 | migration of the 19th century and that is in response to particularly British domination over | 19世纪的移民问题,这是英国对 |
| 384 | the economy of the region. | 本区域的经济。 |
| 385 | You know a lot of this is working-class migration not always very free | 你知道这很多是工人阶级的迁徙 并非总是很自由的 |
| 386 | migration but there too there's a little bit of a difference in that most Chinese migrants in | 移民,但也有一点点不同 大部分中国移民在 |
| 387 | Southeast Asia they work for Chinese employers whereas most Indian migrants are working for European | 东南亚为中国雇主工作,而大多数印度移民为欧洲人工作 |
| 388 | employers for white employers. | 白人雇主的雇主。 |
| 389 | So there's a difference also there. | 所以那里也有区别。 |
| 390 | I would say that Chinese | 我要说中国人 |
| 391 | migrant society has a little bit more autonomy partly because the British directly rule India | 部分由于英国直接统治印度, |
| 392 | and they also rule Southeast Asia most of Southeast Asia so they have much more direct | 他们也统治着东南亚 东南亚的大部分地区 所以他们有更直接的 |
| 393 | surveillance over Indian migration. | 监视印度移民 |
| 394 | They try to control Chinese migration but basically they can't. | 他们试图控制中国移民,但基本上不能. |
| 395 | This is one of the very interesting things if you look at the archives of the British | 这是非常有趣的事情之一 如果你看看英国的档案 |
| 396 | they have the intelligence offices they have and they're constantly trying to understand | 他们拥有情报部门 他们不断试图理解 |
| 397 | Chinese migrant networks and usually they throw up their hands and say we can't you know there's | 华人移民网通常会吐手说我们不知道 |
| 398 | too many networks. | 太多的网络。 |
| 399 | Whereas with Indian migrants they have a little bit more of a kind of direct | 与印度移民 他们有一点点 一种直接 |
| 400 | control over who's coming and who's going and then how. | 控制谁来 谁去,然后如何。 |
| 401 | So these are parallel stories but I'd | 所以,这些都是平行的故事 但我会 |
| 402 | also say they also have certain social dynamics that are different. | 也说他们也有某些不同的社会动态. |
| 403 | There are these institutions | 有这样的机构 |
| 404 | in the Chinese diaspora in Southeast Asia which you don't really find with the Indian diaspora, | 在东南亚的华人移民社群中, |
| 405 | clan associations, asana associations, all of these ways in which migrant society is to some | 部族协会,阿萨纳协会,移民社会对一些人来说的所有这些方式,包括: |
| 406 | extent self-governing and you don't find that so much with Indian migration. | 自我管理 和你不觉得 这么多与印度移民。 |
| 407 | Again partly | 再来一次 |
| 408 | that's because so much of the Indian migration is going straight to the plantations and these | 这是因为很多印度移民 直接去种植园和这些 |
| 409 | I write about them in this book. | 我在这本书里写了他们 |
| 410 | They're very controlled spaces, they're very isolated places, | 它们是非常受控制的空间, 他们是非常孤立的地方, |
| 411 | they are places where labourers don't have a lot of freedom or autonomy. | 这些地方的工人没有太多的自由或自主权。 |
| 412 | Whereas | 不过 |
| 413 | Chinese labour in Malaysia to take the example tended to work in tin mines which were not, | 以马来西亚为例的华人劳工往往在锡矿中工作,而这些锡矿不是, |
| 414 | they were smaller, they tended to be in smaller sort of groups with a little bit more autonomy, | 他们比较小, 他们往往属于 较小的一类群体, 有一点点的自主权, |
| 415 | somewhat more link between the employer and the workers. | 雇主和工人之间的联系要多一些。 |
| 416 | Often the merchant came from the same | 商人经常是同一个人 |
| 417 | town and would bring over workers from there so there are these connections. | 镇上的人都会从那里来 所以有这些联系 |
| 418 | Of course there's | 当然有 |
| 419 | also hierarchy, there's also power but it's a little bit different I think with the Chinese | 还有等级,也有权力,但跟中国人有点不同 |
| 420 | migration but I think the main difference is the geography. | 但我认为主要区别在于地理 |
| 421 | The Chinese migration in Southeast Asia | 东南亚的中国移民 |
| 422 | is far more evenly distributed whereas the Indian migration is really limited to primarily British | 而印度的移民主要局限于英国人 |
| 423 | ruled territories. | 统治领土。 |
| 424 | You find very few Indian migrants in Indonesia or in the Philippines | 在印度尼西亚或菲律宾发现很少印度移民 |
| 425 | for example some but very few. | 例如,有些,但很少。 |
| 426 | Very fascinating and I find your answer actually already covering | 非常迷人,我发现你的答案 其实已经覆盖 |
| 427 | a lot of the questions that are coming up which keep those questions coming. | 有很多问题正在出现 使这些问题不断出现。 |
| 428 | These are great | 这些很棒 |
| 429 | questions and we want to keep this conversation going. | 我们想继续谈话 |
| 430 | David asks under the colonial invasion of | 大卫在殖民入侵下问 |
| 431 | West, how can colonial countries keep their traditional culture in the force-related | 西方,殖民国家如何保持其传统文化与武力有关 |
| 432 | politics political system after independence? | 独立后的政治政治制度? |
| 433 | I mean that was really the big dilemma that all | 我的意思是,这是真正的 大困境,所有 |
| 434 | of the new nations faced. | 面对的新国家。 |
| 435 | We sort of forget maybe how fundamental the transformation took | 我们有点忘记了 转变有多重要 |
| 436 | place in the 1940s where suddenly from being an almost entirely imperial space Asia became | 在20世纪40年代 几乎完全成为帝国主义的亚洲 |
| 437 | a space of free nation states and these were the questions they asked themselves like how can | 自由民族国家的空间 这就是他们问自己的问题 如何可以 |
| 438 | we be genuinely free so that many of them worried that independence would largely be a fig leaf like | 我们真正自由,这样他们中很多人 担心独立在很大程度上是无花果叶 |
| 439 | a sort of we are formally free but actually nothing will change. | 一种形式上我们是自由的 但实际上不会改变。 |
| 440 | In the 1960s this idea of | 在1960年代,这个想法 |
| 441 | neo-colonialism comes along. | 新殖民主义随之而来。 |
| 442 | The idea that yes the western powers seem to have given freedom to these | 西方列强似乎给了他们自由 |
| 443 | states but they still control their economies or in the cold war they're still controlling | 但是他们仍然控制着经济或在冷战中仍然控制着经济 |
| 444 | them with foreign aid, American aid in particular. | 特别是美国的援助。 |
| 445 | So these are I think really live dilemmas and one | 所以,我认为这些真的 生活困境和一个 |
| 446 | of the questions is really that there are different ideas of what the traditional culture is and I | 问题是,对于传统文化是什么,我有什么不同的想法。 |
| 447 | think that is at the heart of many of these conflicts that you know the question is after | 认为这是很多这些冲突的核心 你知道问题在于 |
| 448 | the colonial invasion by the west how did these countries keep their traditional culture? | 西方殖民入侵 这些国家如何保持传统文化? |
| 449 | I think | 我觉得 |
| 450 | part of the issue is that they had a lot of disagreements about what the traditional | 问题的一部分是 他们对于传统传统 |
| 451 | culture was or which aspects of it to keep and which aspects of it to transform and that was | 文化是或应该保留哪些方面,哪些方面应该改变,哪些应该改变。 |
| 452 | the root of a lot of problems. | 很多问题的根源。 |
| 453 | So for example in Southeast Asia, take Malaysia as an example, | 例如东南亚以马来西亚为例, |
| 454 | the question is well is only Malay culture traditional culture here or is the fact that | 问题是,这里只有马来文化传统文化,还是事实上 |
| 455 | there are large Indian and Chinese communities you know yes many of them came under the colonial | 有很多印度人和华人社区,你们知道 是的,他们中许多人是殖民者 |
| 456 | period but actually they're part of the society. | 但实际上他们是社会的一部分。 |
| 457 | They're also in a sense they also come from Asian | 从某种意义上说,它们也来自亚洲 |
| 458 | societies that were under colonial domination. | 处于殖民统治之下的社会。 |
| 459 | Could we make a new kind of culture that is a more | 我们能创造出一种新的文化吗? |
| 460 | composite culture and you know that conflict is still there in Malaysia and I think most countries | 综合文化,你知道马来西亚仍有冲突 我认为大多数国家 |
| 461 | in Southeast Asia have this idea that what is the traditional culture? | 在东南亚, |
| 462 | Is it only the culture of one | 难道只有一种文化? |
| 463 | group or is the traditional culture actually something that we could piece together from a | 或者传统文化是我们可以从 |
| 464 | number of these different currents and I think almost every country in Southeast Asia the only | 我认为,东南亚几乎每一个国家都是 |
| 465 | country that sort of decides on the other side which is to say that we have to have a composite | 说我们必须有一个复合体 |
| 466 | culture is really Singapore and Singapore decides that I suppose for very specific reasons because | 文化其实是新加坡和新加坡决定的,我想是出于非常具体的原因,因为 |
| 467 | Singapore is small there's not a lot of option to do anything different. | 新加坡很小,没有太多的选择可以做任何不同的事情. |
| 468 | Singapore is really the only | 新加坡是唯一一个 |
| 469 | country in Southeast Asia which explicitly says our culture has to be a composite culture but | 东南亚国家明确表示,我们的文化必须是复合文化,但 |
| 470 | Singapore's also a little bit different in that Singapore when Singapore becomes independent it | 新加坡在新加坡独立时 也有点不同 |
| 471 | doesn't reject the colonial history. | 不拒绝殖民历史。 |
| 472 | Other countries do but Singapore actually quite | 其他国家也这样做,但新加坡实际上相当 |
| 473 | proudly sees itself as a successor to raffles and to the British sort of free trading so | 骄傲地认为自己是红花和英国自由贸易的继承者 |
| 474 | Singapore is I think an exception and in that sense needs to be treated as a sort of slightly | 我认为新加坡是一个例外,从这个意义上讲,需要将它视为一种轻微的例外。 |
| 475 | different kind of case. | 不同类型的情况。 |
| 476 | Everyone else in Southeast Asia you basically have this conflict of what is | 东南亚的每一个人 你基本上都有这种冲突 |
| 477 | culture that we want to preserve and elevate and Myanmar of course so many of the conflicts in | 我们想保留和提升的文化,当然,缅甸境内有许多冲突。 |
| 478 | Myanmar since the 1940s revolve around that question so I mean the simple question answer | 从1940年代起缅甸就围绕着这个问题,所以我的意思是简单的问题答案 |
| 479 | to your very very important question is that was it proved very difficult to do that in some sense | 对于你非常重要的问题是 证明从某种意义上说 这样做非常困难 |
| 480 | the legacy of western domination in this part of the world was was very long long lived long lasting | 世界这一地区的西方统治遗留下来的 |
| 481 | and and and has proved difficult to sort of transcend in many ways. | 而且在很多方面都很难超越 |
| 482 | Yes and something that's | 是的,还有一些事情 |
| 483 | still very much at play now so we're still watching the the answer to that question being played out. | 我们仍然在玩,所以我们仍在看 这个问题的答案 被玩弄。 |
| 484 | Qin Qiao has a higher hand up as well as the question in the box so I'm going to ask to | 秦孝公的手比盒子里还高 所以我要问 |
| 485 | unmute you so we can have a good discussion here. | 免得责备你 这样我们才能好好讨论 |
| 486 | Professor I just wonder when you study those | 教授,我想知道你什么时候学这些 |
| 487 | cultures in different countries one barrier you might encounter was to study the documents | 你可能遇到的一个障碍是研究文件 |
| 488 | but documents may write in different languages so apart from the language barriers what kind of | 但文档可能用不同的语言写作,所以除了语言障碍之外, |
| 489 | challenges you also encounter and what motivates you to write this book and to finish this book? | 是什么激励你写这本书 完成这本书? |
| 490 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 491 | Language is of course a major barrier and I suppose language is one reason | 语言当然是一大障碍 我想语言是原因之一 |
| 492 | why the area studies develop in such separate directions because there's a a lot of emphasis | 为什么这些研究的发展方向不同 因为有很多重点 |
| 493 | in area studies on on language training and that's vital it remains more important than | 在语言培训的地区研究中,这一点至关重要。 |
| 494 | ever and I think the difficulty of doing some of this work that's looking across regions is partly | 我觉得做这些跨区域的工作 有点困难 |
| 495 | it is language and you know even I could only read one fraction of the languages that were | 这是语言,你知道 即使我只能读 一小部分的语言是 |
| 496 | in operation in this part of the world you know what I always felt for example that there was a | 在世界的这个地区,你知道我总是觉得 比如说,有一个 |
| 497 | real weakness in my ability to understand this world because I don't read Chinese I could read | 我理解这个世界的能力非常薄弱 因为我不懂中文,我懂中文 |
| 498 | Malay and I could read Tamil and other Indian languages but I was not able to read the Chinese | 马来人和我读过泰米尔语和其他印度语言,但我读不到中文 |
| 499 | and I think to really to sort of bring these worlds together you know that is one reason why | 我想把世界融为一体 你知道这就是为什么 |
| 500 | I think there's more and more collaborative work that's going on in the humanities. | 我认为,在人文方面,合作性的工作越来越多. |
| 501 | Traditionally | 传统上 |
| 502 | humanities scholars have tended to work alone unlike scientists but actually I think that's | 人文学科的学者 往往单独工作 不像科学家 但实际上我认为 |
| 503 | starting to change that we realize that there are many more group projects where people have | 开始改变,我们意识到 还有更多的集体项目 人们有 |
| 504 | different language skills they pool their expertise in ways that I think is really meaningful. | 不同的语言技能 他们集聚了他们的专长 我认为是真正有意义的。 |
| 505 | There are other barriers I certainly faced and now many of my students face when they're doing | 我肯定还面临其他障碍 现在很多学生在做这些事情时都面临障碍 |
| 506 | this kind of work. | 这种工作。 |
| 507 | One is just access to archives. | 一是查阅档案。 |
| 508 | Policies change quite quickly that one year an | 政策变化很快 一年 |
| 509 | archive may be open the next year it may be closed and this is true right across the region | 档案可能于下一年打开,可能关闭,这在整个区域都是真实的 |
| 510 | all the way from India through through through south eastern east Asia so this is like a common | 从印度一直穿过东南亚 所以这就像一个常见的 |
| 511 | dilemma. | 困境。 |
| 512 | The other challenge is really these are very painful histories for some people | 另一挑战是,这些对有些人来说都是非常痛苦的历史。 |
| 513 | actually they've left a difficult legacy and sometimes they continue to have implications | 实际上,他们留下了一个困难的遗产, 有时他们继续有影响 |
| 514 | in the present day so sometimes these are histories that people are very careful about | 在今天,所以有时这些历史 人们非常小心 |
| 515 | how to talk about them and for me that was a real dilemma. | 如何谈论他们 对我来说,这是一个真正的两难。 |
| 516 | I thought I want to be as | 我以为我想成为 |
| 517 | responsible as I can when I write this. | 我写这篇文章时尽我的责任 |
| 518 | You know you don't want to say things that will | 你知道你不想说这些话 |
| 519 | heighten current conflicts or to sort of feel like you're being partisan where there are sort | 加剧目前的冲突 或觉得自己是党派的 |
| 520 | of two sides on an issue when it comes to you know citizenship questions or border questions. | 当您知道公民问题或边界问题时, |
| 521 | So I did feel like I had to tread carefully you know to make sure that I was approaching this | 所以,我觉得我必须小心行事 你知道,确保我接近这个 |
| 522 | as much as a sort of with a little bit of distance and a little bit of detachment | 就像有点距离和小分解 |
| 523 | and care because I do think these questions are very live questions some of them in the region | 注意,因为我认为这些问题 是非常活的问题 其中一些在本地区 |
| 524 | today and for me the the answer to that was very often you know to make sure I was | 今天,对我来说,答案 是经常你知道的 确保我是 |
| 525 | talking very much to not only to local scholars but also to local museum curators people who | 不仅与当地学者, 也与当地博物馆馆长, |
| 526 | are really thinking like how do you tell these stories what are the sensitivities. | 思考的真像 你怎么告诉这些故事 什么是敏感。 |
| 527 | I was | и琌 |
| 528 | motivated to write the book you know more than anything else by curiosity and the more I did | 以好奇心为动机写书 你最了解的是我 |
| 529 | this research the more I became absorbed in trying to understand how this world worked, | 我越是了解这个世界是如何运作的 |
| 530 | this world of multiple migrations and languages etc. | 这个有多种迁徙和语言的世界 |
| 531 | You know I was attracted to the idea of | 你知道,我被吸引 的想法, |
| 532 | doing any different kinds of research so I used documents but I also used a lot of | 做各种研究 所以我用过文件 但也用了很多 |
| 533 | oral history fieldwork interview based research and I found that was itself a sort of motivator | 口述历史现场调查研究 我发现这本身就是一种诱因 |
| 534 | and then in the end in terms of what motivated me to finish it I think it was that | 最终,从什么 激励我完成它,我想它是 |
| 535 | having spent all of this time hearing these stories I felt like I needed to tell these stories | 我花了这么多时间听到这些故事 我觉得我需要讲这些故事 |
| 536 | because I felt they were you know certainly they were living with me and they were very | 因为我觉得他们是你知道 他们肯定和我住在一起 他们非常 |
| 537 | powerful in my mind and I thought well actually these speak to a lot of our current concerns. | 在我的脑海中,我深思熟虑 这些能很好地表达我们目前关注的很多问题。 |
| 538 | One of the things that I found most gratifying about this whole process is that you know it was | 我对这个过程最满意的一件事 就是你知道 |
| 539 | published by an American university press that can make it quite inaccessible in Asia but what I | 由一家美国大学出版社出版, 使得它在亚洲相当难以进入, 但什么我 |
| 540 | was very glad about was that you know the book people did respond to it locally in Malaysia | 非常高兴的是 你知道那本书在马来西亚的当地人们确实响应了 |
| 541 | and Singapore you know there was enough interest to have it translated and in China I feel like | 和新加坡 你知道有足够的兴趣 有它翻译 在中国我觉得 |
| 542 | it sort of that was the greatest reward for me is that it was you know it resonated in some way | 这对我最大的报酬是 你知道它在某些方面有共鸣 |
| 543 | with the concerns of people in the region as well as scholars outside the region. | 关注该地区人民以及该地区以外学者的关切。 |
| 544 | Great, I have a feeling we're going to jump back into questions of methodology and things like that | 好极了,我感觉我们要回到 方法的问题和类似的东西 |
| 545 | later on as well. | 后亦尔. |
| 546 | Leo has his hand raised. | 里奥举起手来 |
| 547 | Hello Professor, we know that India was the | 你好,教授,我们知道印度是 |
| 548 | most important colonial of the Great Britain and a lot of the UK's policies in the | 大不列颠最重要的殖民地 以及英国在 |
| 549 | 19th and the 20th century was to protect its interest in India like its policies towards | 19世纪和20世纪是保护印度的利益,就像其对印度的政策一样。 |
| 550 | Egypt, its policies towards Palestine and the whole Middle East. | 埃及,其对巴勒斯坦和整个中东的政策. |
| 551 | So what do you think that these | 你觉得这些是什么? |
| 552 | policies affect the migration in the Bay Area? | 政策影响海湾地区的移徙? |
| 553 | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| 554 | Great question, there are so many ways | 问得好,有很多方法 |
| 555 | in which the migration within this entire region is really subordinated to the interests of the | 在这个区域,移徙确实从属于 |
| 556 | British Empire. | 大英帝国. |
| 557 | So I mean why did they need so much labour to move from India to Malaysia? | 我意思是,为什么他们需要这么多劳动力从印度搬到马来西亚? |
| 558 | I mean it | 我说真的 |
| 559 | was because Malaysia became so economically valuable to the British Empire. | 因为马来西亚在经济上对大英帝国如此重要 |
| 560 | I mean by the | 我是说 |
| 561 | 1920s 1930s Malaysia is probably the most economically valuable colony in the entire | 20世纪20年代和30年代 马来西亚可能是整个 经济价值最高的殖民地 |
| 562 | British Empire because of the rubber, because of the timber, because of the tin. | 大英帝国因为橡胶,因为木材,因为锡. |
| 563 | So there are | 这么说 |
| 564 | ways in which actually British economic and strategic interests are, they are omnipresent | 英国的经济利益和战略利益是无所不在的 |
| 565 | in this story. | 在这个故事里。 |
| 566 | What is interesting is that their interests start this migration but then the | 有趣的是,他们的利益 开始这种迁移,但之后 |
| 567 | migration sort of outstrips British interests which is to say that you know migrants are | 移民可能超越英国的利益 也就是说你知道移民是 |
| 568 | themselves making choices, they're making decisions, they are orienting their lives | 自己做出选择, 他们正在做决定, 他们正在引导自己的生活 |
| 569 | in particular ways which may or may not exactly coincide with what the British wanted from them. | 特别是可能或可能不完全符合英国人要求的方式。 |
| 570 | So for example you know the British are increasingly frustrated that they can't | 举个例子,你知道 英国人越来越沮丧 他们不能 |
| 571 | control the migration even from India by the 1920s, by the 1930s. | 20世纪20年代,1930年代,甚至控制了从印度的移民. |
| 572 | In the depression for example | 比如在萧条中 |
| 573 | when suddenly the market for rubber collapses the British are trying to send people back to India | 当橡胶市场突然崩溃时 英国正试图把人送回印度 |
| 574 | but many of them don't want to go, many of them say well no no this is our home now | 但他们中许多人不想去, 他们中许多人说不,不,这是我们的家了 |
| 575 | and that is a process that the British are not really able to control and this is something, | 英国人无法真正控制这个过程, |
| 576 | that's one example of how sometimes these migrations they take on their own life | 这就是他们有时 如何迁移自己生活的例子 |
| 577 | even though you know to explain how they begin and the interests that they serve to start with it's | 尽管你知道如何解释 他们是如何开始的 以及他们为开始服务的利益 |
| 578 | entirely to do with just what you've said which is to say the economic and geopolitical interests | 完全与你所说的 也就是经济和地缘政治利益有关 |
| 579 | that the British have in maintaining India and using India as a sort of base to dominate both | 英国在维持印度 以及利用印度为基地 |
| 580 | East Asia and the Middle East. | 东亚与中东. |
| 581 | Great so even more interconnected than just you know South Asia or | 伟大的,甚至更相互联系 不只是你知道南亚或 |
| 582 | Southeast Asia of course. | 当然是东南亚 |
| 583 | Valerie has a great question I'm going to see if Valerie is able to | 瓦莱丽有个很好的问题 我要看看瓦莱丽是否能够 |
| 584 | unmute. | 轻轻的 |
| 585 | Hi professor thank you so much for being here and I was because I'm an international | 嗨,教授 非常感谢你在这里 而我是因为我是国际的 |
| 586 | relations major so my my question is more like focusing on international politics. | 所以我的问题更像是关注国际政治 |
| 587 | I was just | 我刚刚 |
| 588 | like saying in terms of like the integration of the Asian the entire like Asian Pacific region | 就像亚洲一体化 整个亚太地区 |
| 589 | and I feel like the boundaries were like the segregation the geographical segregation that | 我觉得边界就像隔离的地理隔离 |
| 590 | you mentioned for example East Asia, Southeast Asia there has been increasing like challenges | 你提到过东亚、东南亚, |
| 591 | on how they're no longer as effective in terms of like understanding geopolitics in the region but | 他们不再像了解本地区的地缘政治那样有效了 |
| 592 | also the relationship between the region and the entire world in a sense and you you see like the | 还有这个区域与整个世界之间的关系 从某种意义上来说,你可以看到 |
| 593 | formation of ASEAN you see sort of like the even more economic gravitation and so I was just | 东盟的形成,你看到的有点像 更经济的引力 所以我只是 |
| 594 | wondering like do you see these boundaries and segregation fading like in the foreseeable future | 你是否看到这些界限和隔离在可预见的未来逐渐消失? |
| 595 | do you think they're so useful like in terms of like helping us understand the region yeah | 你觉得他们有用吗? 就像帮助我们理解这个区域 |
| 596 | that was just basically what I was wondering about. | 这基本上是我想知道的。 |
| 597 | That's great I I agree with you I mean I think | 那太好了,我同意你,我的意思是,我觉得 |
| 598 | they are clearly less salient than they were 20 years ago and are likely to become less so and | 它们显然不如20年前那么突出,而且很可能变得不那么突出。 |
| 599 | you see all of these new ways of imagining Asia and one is this idea of you know the Indo-Pacific | 你看所有这些新方式 想象亚洲,一个是这个想法 你了解印度-太平洋 |
| 600 | the maritime Silk Road you know the Belton Road of course is also re-orienting | 你认识的海上丝绸之路 贝尔顿之路当然也是重定向 |
| 601 | Central Asia is in a different position than you know we Central Asia used to be treated completely | 中亚的地位与你不同 我们中亚曾经被完全对待 |
| 602 | separately really as a sort of very specialist subfield and now we see Central Asia is actually | 而现在我们看到中亚其实是 |
| 603 | crucial to so many of these dynamics of interaction that are going on. | 如此之多的互动动态至关重要。 |
| 604 | I think some parts of Asia | 我觉得亚洲的一些地区 |
| 605 | are more internally coherent than others and and I think Southeast Asia is actually the best example | 我觉得东南亚其实是最好的例子。 |
| 606 | that you know ASEAN is very well integrated you know it's probably the best integrated regional | 你知道东盟的一体化程度很高 你知道这是最好的一体化区域 |
| 607 | grouping alongside the EU and given the problems that the EU is facing perhaps it is the most | 与欧盟一起组成一个集团,并且鉴于欧盟面临的问题,也许欧盟面临的问题最多。 |
| 608 | regionally integrated but ASEAN itself has flexible ideas you know China's of course | 地区一体化,但东盟本身也有灵活的想法,你当然知道中国的 |
| 609 | increasingly involved with ASEAN they talk to India all the time as well so there are ways in | 他们越来越多地参与东盟的活动,他们经常与印度交谈,所以有办法 |
| 610 | which ASEAN is now becoming more than Southeast Asia and so yes at the same time that it preserves | 东盟现在已经超越东南亚了 所以是的,同时它保留了 |
| 611 | that Southeast Asia it's also pushing beyond it and extending it in important ways. | 东南亚也正以重要的方式 超越和扩展它。 |
| 612 | You know I | 你认识我 |
| 613 | think there are other ways in which we're thinking about Asia in new ways I mean it strikes me that | 我觉得我们有其他方式 以新的方式思考亚洲, 我的意思是它让我觉得 |
| 614 | so often the word global is now attached to Asia I mean there's a centre for global Asia at NYU | 现在全球这个词经常被附在亚洲上 我的意思是纽约大学有一个全球亚洲中心 |
| 615 | Shanghai there's a centre for global Asia at Duke University here as well as Duke Kunshan and so | 上海有杜克大学的亚洲中心 还有昆山公爵 |
| 616 | there are all sorts of ways in which I think thinking about as you know the second part of | 有各种各样的方式,我想 思考,正如你知道的第二部分 |
| 617 | your question thinking about how Asia relates to the rest of the world is becoming something that | 你的问题 思考亚洲 如何与世界其他地方的关系 正在成为的东西 |
| 618 | people are very interested in and in the context of doing that perhaps you know those internal | 人们对此很感兴趣,而且你可能知道 |
| 619 | divisions seem to matter a little bit less. | 分裂似乎不那么重要。 |
| 620 | I do think some of these distinctions can be useful | 我觉得有些区别是有用的 |
| 621 | in purely intellectual terms going back to the earlier question you know some of this is about | 在纯粹的智力方面,回到早先的问题,你知道有些问题是 |
| 622 | languages some of this is about understanding that you know there are certain cultural or other | 其中一些是理解,你知道 有一些文化或其他 |
| 623 | commonalities that link some parts of the region more than others but I think the key is really | 连结该区域某些地区的共同点比其他地区多,但我认为关键在于 |
| 624 | {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}把这里视为一个连续体 {\fn黑体\fs22\bord1\shad0\3aHBE\4aH00\fscx67\fscy66\2cHFFFFFF\3cH808080}而不是那些过去真的 | |
| 625 | separate off the study of these different regions of the world. | 将世界这些不同地区的研究分开。 |
| 626 | All right all right let's see if Yifan if you're able to unmute. | 好吧,好吧,让我们看看 依凡,如果你能够解密。 |
| 627 | Yes, namaste is that or can I say when I come I'm so happy to see you on screen I read both of your | 是的, Namaste是,或者我可以说 当我来了,我很高兴看到你 在屏幕上,我读你们两个 |
| 628 | books in traditional Chinese the Taiwan Taiwanese form and the Chinese translation which was | 台湾传统汉语图书 台湾汉语图书 |
| 629 | earlier as well as an English original one in the past I've traveled to the countries | 之前还有英文原创的 我去过各国 |
| 630 | on both sides of the Bay of Bangkok frequently I was always so amazed by the cultural links | 在曼谷湾两岸 我经常对文化联系感到惊讶 |
| 631 | and similarities across the Bay I'm wondering could you please elaborate the religious community | 以及整个海湾的相似之处 我想请你详细介绍一下宗教界 |
| 632 | communities immigrations and the spread out of certain religions for instance like | 移民以及某些宗教的传播,例如: |
| 633 | and the business cultural links across the Bay of Bangkok based on that thank you so much. | 以及曼谷湾的商业文化联系 基于这一点,非常感谢。 |
| 634 | Thank you that's a great question yeah I've I've focused a little bit less than what I've been | 谅谅硂琌拜肈 琌摆и |
| 635 | talking about on the merchant communities but but I mean they are are crucial to that broader | 谈商贸界的问题,但我的意思是,他们对于更广大的 |
| 636 | cultural fabric of the Bay of Bangkok these ancient movements of trading communities | 曼谷湾的文化结构 这些古老的贸易界运动 |
| 637 | the Jainism I think is very important you also see the importance of of Tamil speaking Muslim | 我认为 Jainism 是非常重要的,你也知道泰米尔语穆斯林的重要性 |
| 638 | merchants going back six five six hundred years also you know Buddhism is very important as a | 六六百年来的商人... ...你也知道佛教很重要 |
| 639 | kind of deep cultural link across this part of the world you know linking India and China | 这种深厚的文化联系 遍布世界的这个地区 你知道连接印度和中国 |
| 640 | but also particularly the sort of Theravada Buddhist world they're very deep links between | 特别是Theravada佛教世界 他们之间有着很深的联系 |
| 641 | Sri Lanka Thailand Burma so there are all these sort of sub links within this region that I think | 因此,缅甸在这个区域内有所有这些次级联系,我认为, |
| 642 | and and my colleague here who's curator of the Indo-Pacific collections of the Art Gallery Ruth | 以及我的同事 他是艺术画廊的印太收藏馆馆长 |
| 643 | Barnes she has this lovely idea of of a sort of family resemblance so that if you are traveling | 巴恩斯 她有种家庭相似的想法 如果你在旅行 |
| 644 | around the Bay of Bengal suddenly there'll be a moment of of recognizing something like the | 在孟加拉湾周围 突然间会发现一些类似的东西 |
| 645 | Ramayana story which of course makes its way into the Wayankulit shadow puppet performances | 拉玛亚娜的故事,当然 进入了Wayankulit的影子木偶表演 |
| 646 | in Indonesia and it there's a version of it in Thailand the Ram Kien and each one is different | 在印尼,在泰国有一个版本 拉姆基恩和每个都不同 |
| 647 | you know it's not just a transmission it's a total translation and transformation but there are these | 你知道它不仅仅是一个传输 它是一个总的翻译和转化, 但有这些 |
| 648 | sort of stories these narratives which I think people recognize across the region and they | 那种故事,我认为这些故事 人们承认 整个区域,他们 |
| 649 | recognize them even across lines of religious difference so you know this is very much part | 承认他们,甚至跨越宗教的界限 所以,你知道这是很大的一部分 |
| 650 | of Indonesian culture despite the fact that Indonesia is obviously clearly a sort of Muslim | 尽管印度尼西亚显然是穆斯林 |
| 651 | majority society so there are ways in which I think some of these tales these religious cultures | 多数人社会 所以我认为有些故事是 宗教文化 |
| 652 | and others are sort of very important the Chettiyars are very important Tamil Chettiyars who are found | 还有一些是非常重要的 切蒂亚尔人非常重要 泰米尔切蒂亚尔人被发现 |
| 653 | throughout Southeast Asia and who are very important in building temples you know the | 在整个东南亚,谁是非常重要 在建造寺庙 你知道 |
| 654 | Mariamun temples that you see across the region most of them were constructed by the Chettiyar | 你所看到的马里亚门寺庙 大部分是由切蒂亚尔建造的 |
| 655 | 一个叫Cloud Markovitz的历史学家 | |
| 656 | wrote a sort of global history of Sindhi traders they're all the way from Panama to California and | 他们从巴拿马一直到加利福尼亚州 |
| 657 | of course every single point in East Asia there are lots and lots of small trading communities | 当然,东亚的每一个点 都有不少小贸易社区 |
| 658 | around the Bay of Bengal world some of whom also aren't South Asian if you think about the Armenians | 环绕孟加拉湾世界,如果你想到亚美尼亚人, 其中一些人也不是南亚人 |
| 659 | they play a crucial role every single port city from Calcutta to Singapore has an Armenian church | 从加尔各答到新加坡的每一个港口城市都有一座亚美尼亚教堂。 |
| 660 | going back several hundred years into the Armenians are really important trading communities | 回到几百年前的亚美尼亚人 才是重要的贸易界 |
| 661 | of course they're also linking South and Southeast Asia to Central Asia you know into the mountainous | 当然,他们也把南亚和东南亚 和中亚连在一起,你知道的山区。 |
| 662 | parts of Central Asia as well even into the sort of frontiers of Europe so there are ways that | 中亚的部分地区,甚至进入欧洲的边界,所以有办法 |
| 663 | there are many many of these communities and Jane's a great example of one of them who are | 有许多这样的社区 简是一个伟大的例子 |
| 664 | Punjabi migrants of course again more in the 19th and 20th century rather than earlier but | 当然,旁遮普人移民在19世纪和20世纪会更多,而不是更早。 |
| 665 | there's a large Sikh community in Thailand which arrives there in the 19th century you still see | 泰国有一个大型锡克教社区 在19世纪到达那里,你仍然看到 |
| 666 | traces of this in Bangkok so I would say that you know that's another way to tell the story | 在曼谷的痕迹,所以我会说 你知道这是另一种方式 来讲述这个故事 |
| 667 | you tell the story with all of the small trading communities all of the movements of religious | 你和所有小贸易界讲故事 所有的宗教运动 |
| 668 | networks that are in their own way just as important as the large-scale movement of laborers | 与工人大规模流动同样重要的网络 |
| 669 | or sort of imperial connections that we've talked about fascinating all right let's see we've got | 或某种帝国关系,我们已经谈论 迷人的所有权利 让我们来看看我们有 |
| 670 | time for maybe one last question I'm gonna ask you to unmute and you can ask I guess both of your | 也许还有最后一个问题我要问你解密 你可以问,我想你们两个 |
| 671 | questions because you mentioned that your study one area of your study is the environmental history | 因为你提到你的研究 一个研究领域是环境史 |
| 672 | so what's the definition of the environmental history that's um that is a very good and | 环境历史的定义是什么,嗯,这是一个非常好和 |
| 673 | complicated question um I mean the broadest definition is that the environmental history | 复杂问题,嗯,我的意思是最广义的定义 是环境历史 |
| 674 | is the history of the sort of interaction between human societies and the natural | 是人类社会与自然 |
| 675 | environment which can work both ways it can be how the environment shapes human society and it | 环境可以双管齐下 环境可以塑造人类社会 |
| 676 | can also be of course about how human beings transform the environment and in my definition | 人类如何改变环境 在我的定义中 |
| 677 | I think both of those things are interesting so some of the work I've done on the monsoon | 我觉得这两件事都很有趣 所以我在季风上做了一些工作 |
| 678 | it's more about how the climate actually shapes agriculture and how the pattern of the winds allows | 更多的是气候是如何塑造农业的 以及风的形态是如何允许的 |
| 679 | certain kinds of trading connections but then by the sort of second half of that book of mine | 某几类交易关系,但之后 排序的下半部我的书 |
| 680 | called unruly waters it's more about the opposite relationship it's about how human beings are | 所谓不规则的水域 更多的是相反的关系 而是人是如何形成的 |
| 681 | fundamentally transforming the environment and even indeed the climate so I think it's that sort | 根本改变环境,甚至改变气候,所以我想是那种 |
| 682 | of two-sided relationship that is most useful other people think of environmental history I think in | 双面关系 最有用的其他人 想到环境历史,我想在 |
| 683 | you know in more geological terms like some some people think of environmental history as a kind of | 你知道在地质学上 一些人认为环境历史是一种 |
| 684 | very long-term history the kind of history of you know evolutionary history over tens of thousands | 非常长期的历史 那种你熟悉 进化历史超过数万 |
| 685 | of years um in my own work it's much more sort of modern environmental history that I do but there | 在我自己的作品中 我更喜欢现代环境史 |
| 686 | are some colleagues who are sort of thinking on a scale of of tens if not hundreds of thousands of | 一些同事的思维规模是数万甚至数十万 |
| 687 | years when they think about environmental history they're really thinking about the | 当他们思考环境历史时 他们真的在思考 |
| 688 | the evolutionary history of us as a species and I mean this is a field that is as much about um you | 我们作为一个物种的进化史, 我的意思是,这是一个领域 差不多是关于嗯你 |
| 689 | geology and biology as it is about sort of history as we understand it as sort of modern | 地质学和生物学,就像我们理解的现代历史一样 |
| 690 | discipline so I think it's a real spectrum we see environmental history I think is very | 所以,我认为这是一个真正的光谱,我们看到环境历史 我认为是非常 |
| 691 | interdisciplinary field it one of the things I find exciting about environmental history is that | 跨学科领域 环境史让我兴奋的是 |
| 692 | there's a lot of dialogue between sciences social sciences humanities it's actually a major priority | 科学之间有很多对话 社会科学人文科学实际上是一个主要的优先事项 |
| 693 | at Yale at the moment and this brand a big new the provost has a big new initiative called the | 在耶鲁大学,现在这个品牌 一个大的新, 校长有一个大的新倡议,叫做 |
| 694 | planetary solutions project which is really trying to bring together the environmental related | 行星解决方案项目, 真正试图将环境相关 |
| 695 | discussions on this campus across everything from you know from systems biology to you know even the | 关于这个校园的讨论 贯穿于从系统生物学到 |
| 696 | humanities and so so I feel I feel excited about that as a new way of of pooling knowledge of | 人文科学,所以我觉得我对此感到兴奋,认为这是汇集知识的新方法。 |
| 697 | having conversations across boundaries great thank you so much I think that's perfect timing | 跨越国界交谈 非常感谢你 我觉得时机正好 |
| 698 | thank you for all the wonderful questions everybody a fascinating discussion indeed | 感谢大家的好问 大家的精彩讨论 |
| 699 | very happy to see so many people engaged on these questions I'm going to unmute everybody so that | 很高兴看到这么多人参与 这些问题,我要去 揭发每个人,这样, |
| 700 | everybody can thank professor Amrith personally so everybody smile and I'm going to unmute everybody | 每个人都可以亲自感谢阿姆里斯教授 所以大家都笑了,我要让大家放松 |
| 701 | so thank you professor Amrith for a wonderful discussion thank you all for your wonderful | 感谢阿姆里斯教授的精彩讨论 感谢大家的精彩 |
| 702 | questions and thank you for coming I hope to visit you all in person at some point | 问话和谢谢你的到来 我希望有时间能亲自拜访你们 |
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